Archived Posts » 59,699,509
Front Sight Firearms Training Institute ?
1/5/2011 12:12:49 AM
Does anybody have any experience with Frontsite training or thoughts on their company ? I know the adds for it are very corny & seem very infomercial like but how is the actual training ?
http://www.frontsight.com/
http://www.frontsight.com/
1/5/2011 12:26:54 AM
I looked into them a few years back when I was living out in CA. Looks legit. My manager here took a class out there last year he was telling me recently (I was wearing my Blackwater shirt at work and it started the conversation). He said he took a basic CCW class and said it was good to go. He's a former Marine too, so he know's at least a little something about weapons... LOL I don't know anyone who's done any of their advanced courses though.
1/5/2011 2:01:52 AM
My cousin went there and said it was awsome. I got the pacage deal with the XD and the class for like 600$. havent gone yet but hoping to go soon.
1/5/2011 2:36:45 AM
Training is very good. I took the 4-day basic rifle course a few years ago. I highly recommend them, and if I had the ca$h I'd go back for more training.
Business practices are, perhaps, marginal. The owner, Ignatius Piazza, has been to court several times due to questionable practices. For example, some of his members have sued because he offered discounted memberships to newcomers. There have been other issues, too; you can find lots of info on the Internet. Piazza is also (or was) a scientologist. I and other members here on Arfcom will attest that there was NO attempt to solicit Scientology at any time.
I have no problems with any of the above. He offers a service and delivers.
If this is your first time there, do NOT pay full price! You can buy discount coupons; a $2000 training can be had for $150 or so. They are sold on eBay. Piazza offers incentives to upgrade memberships; one of these incentives is in the form of these discount coupons, which you can give away or sell. (My training was provided by an Arfcom member who was giving these away.)
ETA One of the things I liked about Front Sight is that Piazza is VERY pro-2nd Amendment, and puts his money where his mouth is. One thing he does is to make his training available to media personnel, for FREE. He'll give interviews to ANY 'talking head' in the MSM, BUT that person must take his Full Auto course first. They are frequently converted!
Business practices are, perhaps, marginal. The owner, Ignatius Piazza, has been to court several times due to questionable practices. For example, some of his members have sued because he offered discounted memberships to newcomers. There have been other issues, too; you can find lots of info on the Internet. Piazza is also (or was) a scientologist. I and other members here on Arfcom will attest that there was NO attempt to solicit Scientology at any time.
I have no problems with any of the above. He offers a service and delivers.
If this is your first time there, do NOT pay full price! You can buy discount coupons; a $2000 training can be had for $150 or so. They are sold on eBay. Piazza offers incentives to upgrade memberships; one of these incentives is in the form of these discount coupons, which you can give away or sell. (My training was provided by an Arfcom member who was giving these away.)
ETA One of the things I liked about Front Sight is that Piazza is VERY pro-2nd Amendment, and puts his money where his mouth is. One thing he does is to make his training available to media personnel, for FREE. He'll give interviews to ANY 'talking head' in the MSM, BUT that person must take his Full Auto course first. They are frequently converted!
1/5/2011 9:02:39 AM
I went.
I drank the Kool-ade.
I've been back two more times.
It is GREAT training from my experience, the facilities are great.
It IS in the Mojave Desert so choose your class appropriately. I like May and October.
I drank the Kool-ade.
I've been back two more times.
It is GREAT training from my experience, the facilities are great.
It IS in the Mojave Desert so choose your class appropriately. I like May and October.
1/5/2011 5:34:33 PM
I have not gone, but my brother in law claims this is where that guy from "shooter" learned to shoot 1,000 yards.
1/5/2011 9:08:16 PM
Took the wife to the 2-day Basic Handgun many, many years ago. Before that, I attended the FREE Machine Gun course with a buddy. Both trips were excellent. The FREE course did include an hour or so of "the pitch". Kind of like listening to the timeshare pitch and getting a free cruise out of it. The paid course was absent any of this. The instructors were awesome. The facilities were excellent. I agree with a previous poster . . . pick your course carefully. Being in Pahrump, NV in mid-summer kind of sucks . . . unless you are acclimated to 120+ in the shade!
1/6/2011 12:13:30 AM
I know nothing firsthand about their training, although I have heard that its good.
Their marketing however makes me feel like I'm buying a time share, or a Jupiter Jack for my cell phone.
Their marketing however makes me feel like I'm buying a time share, or a Jupiter Jack for my cell phone.
1/7/2011 5:03:19 AM
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
I know nothing firsthand about their training, although I have heard that its good.
Their marketing however makes me feel like I'm buying a time share, or a Jupiter Jack for my cell phone.
I know nothing firsthand about their training, although I have heard that its good.
Their marketing however makes me feel like I'm buying a time share, or a Jupiter Jack for my cell phone.
I have to agree with this.
1/7/2011 6:46:16 PM
I'll be the outlier in this thread.
Having seen their 'videos' and students on Youtube, I remain unimpressed. There are far better training options in Nevada, and often closer to where you live by people and companies with less history and baggage.
These guys are up in in the Reno area, and there are many others that teach in NV.
http://www.lmsdefense.com/lms/home/
Don't believe the hype.
Having seen their 'videos' and students on Youtube, I remain unimpressed. There are far better training options in Nevada, and often closer to where you live by people and companies with less history and baggage.
These guys are up in in the Reno area, and there are many others that teach in NV.
http://www.lmsdefense.com/lms/home/
Don't believe the hype.
1/10/2011 12:20:50 AM
I've been to frontsight a few times and purchased one of their memberships. I took one of their first classes, a free 1 day uzi course when they first opened about 12 years ago. I've since done their handgun and rifle courses. The courses have been great. The basic courses will teach beginners everything they need, and experienced shooters will be challenged too. There have been alot of bad press, the lawsuits and scientology and marketing, but it never affected the training I attended, and they're still open after over a decade. I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class.
They got some great deals. They got a gun/class package on their website or buy the ebay class certs for $100.
They got some great deals. They got a gun/class package on their website or buy the ebay class certs for $100.
1/11/2011 5:13:04 PM
Originally Posted By ZippZ:
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
1/12/2011 1:55:40 AM
Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
Originally Posted By ZippZ:
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
What you say is true.
Several of the other students in my class were GIs and they liked the training. A lot.
One of the neat things about FS is that there is very little pressure in the training class or on the firing line. Absolutely NO "boot camp" mentality. And the instructors know their stuff.
1/15/2011 9:30:12 PM
Great facility and people.
I attended a course where a LEO shot himself in the thigh (Beretta). They were very quick and professional in their medical response. They have EMT's onsite and they were at our range within 20 seconds of when he shot himself.
Have been back several times with plans to go more.
I attended a course where a LEO shot himself in the thigh (Beretta). They were very quick and professional in their medical response. They have EMT's onsite and they were at our range within 20 seconds of when he shot himself.
Have been back several times with plans to go more.
2/2/2011 8:12:52 PM
Originally Posted By FrankSymptoms:
What you say is true.
Several of the other students in my class were GIs and they liked the training. A lot.
One of the neat things about FS is that there is very little pressure in the training class or on the firing line. Absolutely NO "boot camp" mentality. And the instructors know their stuff.
Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
Originally Posted By ZippZ:
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
What you say is true.
Several of the other students in my class were GIs and they liked the training. A lot.
One of the neat things about FS is that there is very little pressure in the training class or on the firing line. Absolutely NO "boot camp" mentality. And the instructors know their stuff.
Well, I posted in the General Discussion before about advices on Front Sight. Let me list my experience wrt to training:
Been to Gunsite, Front Sight, Firearm Training Associates, and Surefire, also a certified Surefire Lowlight instructor, and when I was a reserve LE, I was part of their training staff in pistol, shotgun, and carbine.
I have received training from Louie Arwbuck (Gunsite), Pat Rogers (Gunsite), and Bill Murphy (FTA).
I have a Front Sight First Family Membership, and had received some of my training over a decade ago, and since then, I have moved on.
Front Sight brand of training is good for beginners, their basic marksmanship training is good, and thats it.
Their tactics are flawed, their low light training contains error, and their mind set is all lip service.
Their facility sucks, I think they are still using portable toilet out there, and that have been more than a decade.
Their instructor teaches what they were told to teach, and their scope of their knowledge is actually quite limited, when compared to the instructors of Gunsite and FTA.
Well their training is worth the current market price of their certificate, $2-300 for 4 days.
For real training, go FTA or Gunsite.
2/2/2011 8:25:03 PM
A good friend of mine (now deceased) was an adjunct instructor out there. I have never been. My friend was a total bad ass with a weapon or his hands. Cigarettes killed him.
R.I.P. Sarge
R.I.P. Sarge
2/3/2011 12:30:19 AM
Originally Posted By leungken:
Well, I posted in the General Discussion before about advices on Front Sight. Let me list my experience wrt to training:
Been to Gunsite, Front Sight, Firearm Training Associates, and Surefire, also a certified Surefire Lowlight instructor, and when I was a reserve LE, I was part of their training staff in pistol, shotgun, and carbine.
I have received training from Louie Arwbuck (Gunsite), Pat Rogers (Gunsite), and Bill Murphy (FTA).
I have a Front Sight First Family Membership, and had received some of my training over a decade ago, and since then, I have moved on.
Front Sight brand of training is good for beginners, their basic marksmanship training is good, and thats it.
Their tactics are flawed, their low light training contains error, and their mind set is all lip service.
Their facility sucks, I think they are still using portable toilet out there, and that have been more than a decade.
Their instructor teaches what they were told to teach, and their scope of their knowledge is actually quite limited, when compared to the instructors of Gunsite and FTA.
Well their training is worth the current market price of their certificate, $2-300 for 4 days.
For real training, go FTA or Gunsite.
Well, I posted in the General Discussion before about advices on Front Sight. Let me list my experience wrt to training:
Been to Gunsite, Front Sight, Firearm Training Associates, and Surefire, also a certified Surefire Lowlight instructor, and when I was a reserve LE, I was part of their training staff in pistol, shotgun, and carbine.
I have received training from Louie Arwbuck (Gunsite), Pat Rogers (Gunsite), and Bill Murphy (FTA).
I have a Front Sight First Family Membership, and had received some of my training over a decade ago, and since then, I have moved on.
Front Sight brand of training is good for beginners, their basic marksmanship training is good, and thats it.
Their tactics are flawed, their low light training contains error, and their mind set is all lip service.
Their facility sucks, I think they are still using portable toilet out there, and that have been more than a decade.
Their instructor teaches what they were told to teach, and their scope of their knowledge is actually quite limited, when compared to the instructors of Gunsite and FTA.
Well their training is worth the current market price of their certificate, $2-300 for 4 days.
For real training, go FTA or Gunsite.
I agree that the facility is rudimentary, but I quickly realized that I was not there for a nice men's room. Can you elaborate on the shortcomings of their tactics and low light training?
2/3/2011 1:51:14 PM
I enjoyed my class there.
2/3/2011 1:54:12 PM
My experience was very good. I took a 2-day Edged Weapons class. The only other student was a California Highway Patrol officer. It was a hoot sparring with him.
Instructor was a former Sheriff's Deputy and prison guard. He knew his stuff.
The lecture portions dealing with legal and moral aspects of self-defense were very informative.
Instructor was a former Sheriff's Deputy and prison guard. He knew his stuff.
The lecture portions dealing with legal and moral aspects of self-defense were very informative.
2/3/2011 2:01:05 PM
I took the 4-Day Defensive Handgun and really liked the course. Bought a Diamond Membership (for $250) and I plan on going back for the practical rifle and precision rifle class.
2/3/2011 2:30:49 PM
Someone should put Front Sight in Fallout: New Vegas 
2/3/2011 4:22:41 PM
Originally Posted By California_Kid:
My experience was very good. I took a 2-day Edged Weapons class. The only other student was a California Highway Patrol officer. It was a hoot sparring with him.
Instructor was a former Sheriff's Deputy and prison guard. He knew his stuff.
The lecture portions dealing with legal and moral aspects of self-defense were very informative.
My experience was very good. I took a 2-day Edged Weapons class. The only other student was a California Highway Patrol officer. It was a hoot sparring with him.
Instructor was a former Sheriff's Deputy and prison guard. He knew his stuff.
The lecture portions dealing with legal and moral aspects of self-defense were very informative.
While I don't totally blow this lecture away, I take issue with some of the things they say. I side with the Virginia law professor who has the Youtube video. Search for "Why I never talk to the police." It is a very informative lecture about why you MUST exercise your 5th Amendment rights when dealing with the police.
Example: A student of his approached him and said, "The IRS wants to talk to me about a friend's financial dealings." The prof's answer: "First of all, tell them you won't talk to them unless you get a signed statement from them absolving you from prosecution in this case!"
The IRS never called the student back! They were fishing!
That video is VERY much worthwhile for ANYone who owns a gun, especially for defensive purposes.
2/4/2011 3:39:09 AM
Originally Posted By tradja:
I agree that the facility is rudimentary, but I quickly realized that I was not there for a nice men's room. Can you elaborate on the shortcomings of their tactics and low light training?
Originally Posted By leungken:
Well, I posted in the General Discussion before about advices on Front Sight. Let me list my experience wrt to training:
Been to Gunsite, Front Sight, Firearm Training Associates, and Surefire, also a certified Surefire Lowlight instructor, and when I was a reserve LE, I was part of their training staff in pistol, shotgun, and carbine.
I have received training from Louie Arwbuck (Gunsite), Pat Rogers (Gunsite), and Bill Murphy (FTA).
I have a Front Sight First Family Membership, and had received some of my training over a decade ago, and since then, I have moved on.
Front Sight brand of training is good for beginners, their basic marksmanship training is good, and thats it.
Their tactics are flawed, their low light training contains error, and their mind set is all lip service.
Their facility sucks, I think they are still using portable toilet out there, and that have been more than a decade.
Their instructor teaches what they were told to teach, and their scope of their knowledge is actually quite limited, when compared to the instructors of Gunsite and FTA.
Well their training is worth the current market price of their certificate, $2-300 for 4 days.
For real training, go FTA or Gunsite.
Well, I posted in the General Discussion before about advices on Front Sight. Let me list my experience wrt to training:
Been to Gunsite, Front Sight, Firearm Training Associates, and Surefire, also a certified Surefire Lowlight instructor, and when I was a reserve LE, I was part of their training staff in pistol, shotgun, and carbine.
I have received training from Louie Arwbuck (Gunsite), Pat Rogers (Gunsite), and Bill Murphy (FTA).
I have a Front Sight First Family Membership, and had received some of my training over a decade ago, and since then, I have moved on.
Front Sight brand of training is good for beginners, their basic marksmanship training is good, and thats it.
Their tactics are flawed, their low light training contains error, and their mind set is all lip service.
Their facility sucks, I think they are still using portable toilet out there, and that have been more than a decade.
Their instructor teaches what they were told to teach, and their scope of their knowledge is actually quite limited, when compared to the instructors of Gunsite and FTA.
Well their training is worth the current market price of their certificate, $2-300 for 4 days.
For real training, go FTA or Gunsite.
I agree that the facility is rudimentary, but I quickly realized that I was not there for a nice men's room. Can you elaborate on the shortcomings of their tactics and low light training?
I shall and will during the weekend, when I have time typing it up at homel, consider this a page holder.
2/8/2011 5:58:57 PM
Sorry for the delay, I have been very busy.
These comments are based on experience I had attended several Front Sight’s courses several years ago, and have moved on to other training facilities.
Tacticics
There are multiple flaws wrt Front Sight’s night tactics:
Again, things might have improved today. The last course I took was tactical shotgun with a friend of mine to keep his NRA LE instructor certificate current, and it was 3 years ago, but as I recall, improvements, if any, came very slowly.
These comments are based on experience I had attended several Front Sight’s courses several years ago, and have moved on to other training facilities.
Tacticics
Front Sight instructors and their training doctrine have no complete understanding of two different tactics, slow and deliberate versus dynamics, as a result, was not able to instruct the students the importance and difference of these techniques, and times confuse the two.
No one handed (strong or support side) shooting and weapon manipulations.
No team or preparation of team operations (wife and husband is a team). At minimum, introduce thoughts on weapon and gear selections, and mutual cover, at very little to no risk of muzzling each other.
No third eye, position Saul, just plain old muzzle down ready at the range, even at that, muzzle down is muzzle to the ground (range mentality), not muzzle as low as needed to cover the threat…hand level.
The final test is no more than a marksmanship test. Even at that, they have gradually dumb down the test to accommodate the lesser capable students.
There are no evaluation of the student’s fighting ability, thus all the other “lectures” are lip services.
They ran the students thru the combat simulator in a wholesale manner. There are no detailed debriefing, no critique by peers, no reviews. Get it done, next.
The problem is, they run 30 to 40 student classes, so everything was done in a wholesale manner, rush to accomplish the tasks list out on the schedule, the instructor cannot speed up or slow down the course based on the quality of the students.
No one handed (strong or support side) shooting and weapon manipulations.
No team or preparation of team operations (wife and husband is a team). At minimum, introduce thoughts on weapon and gear selections, and mutual cover, at very little to no risk of muzzling each other.
No third eye, position Saul, just plain old muzzle down ready at the range, even at that, muzzle down is muzzle to the ground (range mentality), not muzzle as low as needed to cover the threat…hand level.
The final test is no more than a marksmanship test. Even at that, they have gradually dumb down the test to accommodate the lesser capable students.
There are no evaluation of the student’s fighting ability, thus all the other “lectures” are lip services.
They ran the students thru the combat simulator in a wholesale manner. There are no detailed debriefing, no critique by peers, no reviews. Get it done, next.
The problem is, they run 30 to 40 student classes, so everything was done in a wholesale manner, rush to accomplish the tasks list out on the schedule, the instructor cannot speed up or slow down the course based on the quality of the students.
There are multiple flaws wrt Front Sight’s night tactics:
They exclusively teach Harris, did not really do a good job at that, and briefly mention Rogers. Their basic Harris is fundamentally wrong, a major feature of the technique is the bent elbow, which naturally forces both hands to press together, was not taught (I knew, shot with, and have some interesting exchange with Michael Harris, when he was alive). They themselves do not understand Rogers, and po-po the technique because it uses specialized equipment.
There is no mention of the FBI, modified FBI, and neck index techniques, primary because Front Sight do not teach one handed shooting and weapon manipulation.
The lack of understanding and generally dismissed the use of light lanyard at Front Sight, causes a lot of problem with simple reloading and malfunction drill. Sticking a flash light below ones arm pit is not tactically sound, especially when you are involved in a fight. The lanyard, correctly utilized, permits one to perform magazine changes to clearing a malfunction with ease.
Have no understanding of low light / deception tactics.
Their low light portion consists of 4 to maybe 5 hours.
What they taught was based out of Surefire’s low light operator’s DVD, monkey see, monkey do, which can be obtained from Surefire for free.
There is no mention of the FBI, modified FBI, and neck index techniques, primary because Front Sight do not teach one handed shooting and weapon manipulation.
The lack of understanding and generally dismissed the use of light lanyard at Front Sight, causes a lot of problem with simple reloading and malfunction drill. Sticking a flash light below ones arm pit is not tactically sound, especially when you are involved in a fight. The lanyard, correctly utilized, permits one to perform magazine changes to clearing a malfunction with ease.
Have no understanding of low light / deception tactics.
Their low light portion consists of 4 to maybe 5 hours.
What they taught was based out of Surefire’s low light operator’s DVD, monkey see, monkey do, which can be obtained from Surefire for free.
Again, things might have improved today. The last course I took was tactical shotgun with a friend of mine to keep his NRA LE instructor certificate current, and it was 3 years ago, but as I recall, improvements, if any, came very slowly.
2/11/2011 1:36:43 AM
Have been a member for quite some time and wanted to add some observation/opinions.
First and foremost, FS best attribute is to take a shooter and get the shooter to a high level of competence in a very brief period of time, with whatever gun the shooter uses.
FS makes no claim to teach team tactics or even offer a team tactic class, nor have I ever heard an instructor state their methods are the best, just the best they believe in, they acknowledge there may be better methods and I have often witnessed students pointing out flaws or more effective ways of doing things. The instructors were open minded and over the years, I have seen some changes.
Unfortunately, bathrooms and on site food are not one of them.
There are force on force (simunitions) classes which do offer feedback and evaluation of a students tactics (welts also offer a very positive level of reinforcement).
Advanced classes are always different depending on the instructor. Again, no team stuff here, this is about keeping you and yours safe, this works. If you wanna train in a team environment, get a team and work hard, often and together. Firearm skills are perishable and team skills go away much faster, trust me.
I've been to Surefire, Sigarms, CSTI, worked with local SWAT, and trained with Bill Murphy. No school is perfect and nobody can offer a guarantee you will prevail in a lethal encounter. IMHO, an operator should train as much as possible, with as many different instructors as possible. I believe it was Clint Smith from Gunsite who stated "every time I teach a class, I discover something I didn't know."
One great thing about FS is the membership program is you can select the level of membership you want, wait for the best deal and you're set for life. Nobody comes close on that one.
I have never seen anything unsafe or tactically unsound. Some stuff I didn't totally agree with, but if anybody finds the perfect program, I want a guarantee.
First and foremost, FS best attribute is to take a shooter and get the shooter to a high level of competence in a very brief period of time, with whatever gun the shooter uses.
FS makes no claim to teach team tactics or even offer a team tactic class, nor have I ever heard an instructor state their methods are the best, just the best they believe in, they acknowledge there may be better methods and I have often witnessed students pointing out flaws or more effective ways of doing things. The instructors were open minded and over the years, I have seen some changes.
Unfortunately, bathrooms and on site food are not one of them.
There are force on force (simunitions) classes which do offer feedback and evaluation of a students tactics (welts also offer a very positive level of reinforcement).
Advanced classes are always different depending on the instructor. Again, no team stuff here, this is about keeping you and yours safe, this works. If you wanna train in a team environment, get a team and work hard, often and together. Firearm skills are perishable and team skills go away much faster, trust me.
I've been to Surefire, Sigarms, CSTI, worked with local SWAT, and trained with Bill Murphy. No school is perfect and nobody can offer a guarantee you will prevail in a lethal encounter. IMHO, an operator should train as much as possible, with as many different instructors as possible. I believe it was Clint Smith from Gunsite who stated "every time I teach a class, I discover something I didn't know."
One great thing about FS is the membership program is you can select the level of membership you want, wait for the best deal and you're set for life. Nobody comes close on that one.
I have never seen anything unsafe or tactically unsound. Some stuff I didn't totally agree with, but if anybody finds the perfect program, I want a guarantee.
2/15/2011 7:09:57 PM
Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
Originally Posted By ZippZ:
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
So what was your experince like there? How did it match up with other courses that you have attended?
2/16/2011 2:37:30 PM
Originally Posted By Cowboy1967:
So what was your experince like there? How did it match up with other courses that you have attended?
Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
Originally Posted By ZippZ:
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
So what was your experince like there? How did it match up with other courses that you have attended?
I have never been there. I said I've never "seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels."
I am not going to spend thousands of dollars and weeks off of work to go to school across the country just to post a review on a message board. Especially when I have never seen a review by an experienced shooter who could compare that school to others (perhaps some I have been to).
2/16/2011 3:03:29 PM
Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
I have never been there. I said I've never "seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels."
I am not going to spend thousands of dollars and weeks off of work to go to school across the country just to post a review on a message board. Especially when I have never seen a review by an experienced shooter who could compare that school to others (perhaps some I have been to).
Originally Posted By Cowboy1967:
So what was your experince like there? How did it match up with other courses that you have attended?
Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
Originally Posted By ZippZ:
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
So what was your experince like there? How did it match up with other courses that you have attended?
I have never been there. I said I've never "seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels."
I am not going to spend thousands of dollars and weeks off of work to go to school across the country just to post a review on a message board. Especially when I have never seen a review by an experienced shooter who could compare that school to others (perhaps some I have been to).
I only asked because in another thread You were quoted as a person who had been there and was unhappy with the training you received there.. I wasn't picking a fight just looking for some clarification.. Sorry to upset ya
2/16/2011 4:20:05 PM
Originally Posted By Cowboy1967:
I only asked because in another thread You were quoted as a person who had been there and was unhappy with the training you received there.. I wasn't picking a fight just looking for some clarification.. Sorry to upset ya
I only asked because in another thread You were quoted as a person who had been there and was unhappy with the training you received there.. I wasn't picking a fight just looking for some clarification.. Sorry to upset ya
Really? I had no idea. You have a link so I can set it straight?
No hard feelings––just don't want to misrepresent anything.
2/16/2011 4:59:57 PM
Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
Really? I had no idea. You have a link so I can set it straight?
No hard feelings––just don't want to misrepresent anything.
Originally Posted By Cowboy1967:
I only asked because in another thread You were quoted as a person who had been there and was unhappy with the training you received there.. I wasn't picking a fight just looking for some clarification.. Sorry to upset ya
I only asked because in another thread You were quoted as a person who had been there and was unhappy with the training you received there.. I wasn't picking a fight just looking for some clarification.. Sorry to upset ya
Really? I had no idea. You have a link so I can set it straight?
No hard feelings––just don't want to misrepresent anything.
here you go
2/16/2011 6:34:10 PM
Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
Really? I had no idea. You have a link so I can set it straight?
No hard feelings––just don't want to misrepresent anything.
Originally Posted By Cowboy1967:
I only asked because in another thread You were quoted as a person who had been there and was unhappy with the training you received there.. I wasn't picking a fight just looking for some clarification.. Sorry to upset ya
I only asked because in another thread You were quoted as a person who had been there and was unhappy with the training you received there.. I wasn't picking a fight just looking for some clarification.. Sorry to upset ya
Really? I had no idea. You have a link so I can set it straight?
No hard feelings––just don't want to misrepresent anything.
No you weren't. His reading comprehension is at an ARFCOM level. I referenced your quote, AND stated that there were people that have been there that thought the training was sub-par, but his feeble little brain saw the two and immediately connected them.
2/16/2011 6:55:05 PM
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
No you weren't. His reading comprehension is at an ARFCOM level. I referenced your quote, AND stated that there were people that have been there that thought the training was sub-par, but his feeble little brain saw the two and immediately connected them.
Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
Really? I had no idea. You have a link so I can set it straight?
No hard feelings––just don't want to misrepresent anything.
Originally Posted By Cowboy1967:
I only asked because in another thread You were quoted as a person who had been there and was unhappy with the training you received there.. I wasn't picking a fight just looking for some clarification.. Sorry to upset ya
I only asked because in another thread You were quoted as a person who had been there and was unhappy with the training you received there.. I wasn't picking a fight just looking for some clarification.. Sorry to upset ya
Really? I had no idea. You have a link so I can set it straight?
No hard feelings––just don't want to misrepresent anything.
No you weren't. His reading comprehension is at an ARFCOM level. I referenced your quote, AND stated that there were people that have been there that thought the training was sub-par, but his feeble little brain saw the two and immediately connected them.
It's my fault because you post his quote and told me to check this thread
Originally Posted By Cowboy1967:
I am going down in April to take a Hand to Hand and Edged weapons class.. I bought a Diamond membership in December for $250.00 also.. I am using these classes to get a fill for the place.. I have always heard good things from people who have had training there and a lot of shit talking from guys who have never set foot on the grounds.. It is funny how many friends of friends had bad training there or most other class for that matter.. I will do a AAR. after I get back on the 20th of April
Originally Posted By dookie1481
Go check the thread in General Training Discussion. A few people who went and didn't like it.
I liked this quote:
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
Yep my reading skills cause this problem
2/17/2011 10:05:56 AM
Front Sight has one of the most comprehensive training courses for civilians. I have been going to Front Sight since 2005 and can provide some examples that counter these complaints. For the sake of this discussion, let's just focus on handgun classes. For starters, most of the complaints are focused on the beginner class, the 4-day Defensive Handgun. It is a great class for most people and a requirement in order for students to take more advanced classes, once they passed the skills test with either Graduate (70 to 89 percentile) or Distinguished Graduate (90% or higher). The test involves shooting at various distances while wearing a concealment garment, clearing three types of malfunctions, and two different reloads, all under time pressure. This ensures that students have safe gun handling skills and marksman skills before taking more advanced classes.
Students with Graduate level status can take two additional classes. In the next level class, 2-day Advanced Tactical Handgun, students learn to shoot on the move, flashlight techniques (FBI and neck indexing are included), Position Sul (360 scans), and yes, how to clear malfunctions one-handed with either hands. There is also Scenarios class, where students use Simunition firearms under various scenarios. Students play different roles, including good guys saving the day or bad guys robbing the store, or anywhere in between. This is also known as Force-on-Force training. Team tactics are used and discussed in these classes.
The next two handgun classes require DG (Distinguished Graduate) as the course requirement. One of these classes is Integrated Handgun. The class focuses on mindset and tactics, assuming you already have good marksmanship skills. Students are to use two handguns, one on each side. It is amazing to see all students making good hostage taker shots in one of the training scenarios. The other class is the Handgun Combat Master Prep, which perfects students' shooting platform with increased speed and accuracy. If you think the normal skills test is difficult, the test for HCM is even more intense. For example, students are to fire 2 shots at 7 yards, in 1.3 seconds. For hostage taker shots (partial head showing), students have 1.2 seconds at 7 yards. Chuck Taylor is the gentleman who came up with the concept. There are not many certified HCM in the world and quite a few has earned their credential at Front Sight.
It is not my goal to provide AAR on all the classes. You can find more information at: http://www.frontsight.com/Courses.asp. It is my attempt to provide some information and clarification why you should not dismiss Front Sight as your next training stop from people who have not been to the school or have only taken a couple of basic classes from the school.
Students with Graduate level status can take two additional classes. In the next level class, 2-day Advanced Tactical Handgun, students learn to shoot on the move, flashlight techniques (FBI and neck indexing are included), Position Sul (360 scans), and yes, how to clear malfunctions one-handed with either hands. There is also Scenarios class, where students use Simunition firearms under various scenarios. Students play different roles, including good guys saving the day or bad guys robbing the store, or anywhere in between. This is also known as Force-on-Force training. Team tactics are used and discussed in these classes.
The next two handgun classes require DG (Distinguished Graduate) as the course requirement. One of these classes is Integrated Handgun. The class focuses on mindset and tactics, assuming you already have good marksmanship skills. Students are to use two handguns, one on each side. It is amazing to see all students making good hostage taker shots in one of the training scenarios. The other class is the Handgun Combat Master Prep, which perfects students' shooting platform with increased speed and accuracy. If you think the normal skills test is difficult, the test for HCM is even more intense. For example, students are to fire 2 shots at 7 yards, in 1.3 seconds. For hostage taker shots (partial head showing), students have 1.2 seconds at 7 yards. Chuck Taylor is the gentleman who came up with the concept. There are not many certified HCM in the world and quite a few has earned their credential at Front Sight.
It is not my goal to provide AAR on all the classes. You can find more information at: http://www.frontsight.com/Courses.asp. It is my attempt to provide some information and clarification why you should not dismiss Front Sight as your next training stop from people who have not been to the school or have only taken a couple of basic classes from the school.
2/17/2011 12:29:09 PM
Originally Posted By mi-az-shooter:
. . . Students are to use two handguns, one on each side . . .
. . . Students are to use two handguns, one on each side . . .
Could you explain this please?
Are you a FS instructor?
2/17/2011 12:54:18 PM
I am not a FS instructor, just a member.
To answer your question, think of a rifle class where students carry sidearms. In the handgun class, two handguns are used. There are times a second gun is faster, such as emergency reloads or Type III malfunctions.
To answer your question, think of a rifle class where students carry sidearms. In the handgun class, two handguns are used. There are times a second gun is faster, such as emergency reloads or Type III malfunctions.
2/17/2011 1:19:12 PM
Originally Posted By Cowboy1967:
It's my fault because you post his quote and told me to check this thread
Originally Posted By Cowboy1967:
I am going down in April to take a Hand to Hand and Edged weapons class.. I bought a Diamond membership in December for $250.00 also.. I am using these classes to get a fill for the place.. I have always heard good things from people who have had training there and a lot of shit talking from guys who have never set foot on the grounds.. It is funny how many friends of friends had bad training there or most other class for that matter.. I will do a AAR. after I get back on the 20th of April
Originally Posted By dookie1481
Go check the thread in General Training Discussion. A few people who went and didn't like it.
I liked this quote:
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
Yep my reading skills cause this problem
Originally Posted By dookie1481:
No you weren't. His reading comprehension is at an ARFCOM level. I referenced your quote, AND stated that there were people that have been there that thought the training was sub-par, but his feeble little brain saw the two and immediately connected them.
Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
Really? I had no idea. You have a link so I can set it straight?
No hard feelings––just don't want to misrepresent anything.
Originally Posted By Cowboy1967:
I only asked because in another thread You were quoted as a person who had been there and was unhappy with the training you received there.. I wasn't picking a fight just looking for some clarification.. Sorry to upset ya
I only asked because in another thread You were quoted as a person who had been there and was unhappy with the training you received there.. I wasn't picking a fight just looking for some clarification.. Sorry to upset ya
Really? I had no idea. You have a link so I can set it straight?
No hard feelings––just don't want to misrepresent anything.
No you weren't. His reading comprehension is at an ARFCOM level. I referenced your quote, AND stated that there were people that have been there that thought the training was sub-par, but his feeble little brain saw the two and immediately connected them.
It's my fault because you post his quote and told me to check this thread
Originally Posted By Cowboy1967:
I am going down in April to take a Hand to Hand and Edged weapons class.. I bought a Diamond membership in December for $250.00 also.. I am using these classes to get a fill for the place.. I have always heard good things from people who have had training there and a lot of shit talking from guys who have never set foot on the grounds.. It is funny how many friends of friends had bad training there or most other class for that matter.. I will do a AAR. after I get back on the 20th of April
Originally Posted By dookie1481
Go check the thread in General Training Discussion. A few people who went and didn't like it.
I liked this quote:
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
Yep my reading skills cause this problem
I never said that quote was from the person who said they attended. You simply inferred that. All I said was that I liked the quote :)
2/20/2011 7:25:20 PM
Originally Posted By leungken:
Well, I posted in the General Discussion before about advices on Front Sight. Let me list my experience wrt to training:
Been to Gunsite, Front Sight, Firearm Training Associates, and Surefire, also a certified Surefire Lowlight instructor, and when I was a reserve LE, I was part of their training staff in pistol, shotgun, and carbine.
I have received training from Louie Arwbuck (Gunsite), Pat Rogers (Gunsite), and Bill Murphy (FTA).
I have a Front Sight First Family Membership, and had received some of my training over a decade ago, and since then, I have moved on.
Front Sight brand of training is good for beginners, their basic marksmanship training is good, and thats it.
Their tactics are flawed, their low light training contains error, and their mind set is all lip service.
Their facility sucks, I think they are still using portable toilet out there, and that have been more than a decade.
Their instructor teaches what they were told to teach, and their scope of their knowledge is actually quite limited, when compared to the instructors of Gunsite and FTA.
Well their training is worth the current market price of their certificate, $2-300 for 4 days.
For real training, go FTA or Gunsite.
Originally Posted By FrankSymptoms:
What you say is true.
Several of the other students in my class were GIs and they liked the training. A lot.
One of the neat things about FS is that there is very little pressure in the training class or on the firing line. Absolutely NO "boot camp" mentality. And the instructors know their stuff.
Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
Originally Posted By ZippZ:
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
What you say is true.
Several of the other students in my class were GIs and they liked the training. A lot.
One of the neat things about FS is that there is very little pressure in the training class or on the firing line. Absolutely NO "boot camp" mentality. And the instructors know their stuff.
Well, I posted in the General Discussion before about advices on Front Sight. Let me list my experience wrt to training:
Been to Gunsite, Front Sight, Firearm Training Associates, and Surefire, also a certified Surefire Lowlight instructor, and when I was a reserve LE, I was part of their training staff in pistol, shotgun, and carbine.
I have received training from Louie Arwbuck (Gunsite), Pat Rogers (Gunsite), and Bill Murphy (FTA).
I have a Front Sight First Family Membership, and had received some of my training over a decade ago, and since then, I have moved on.
Front Sight brand of training is good for beginners, their basic marksmanship training is good, and thats it.
Their tactics are flawed, their low light training contains error, and their mind set is all lip service.
Their facility sucks, I think they are still using portable toilet out there, and that have been more than a decade.
Their instructor teaches what they were told to teach, and their scope of their knowledge is actually quite limited, when compared to the instructors of Gunsite and FTA.
Well their training is worth the current market price of their certificate, $2-300 for 4 days.
For real training, go FTA or Gunsite.
Another FTA guy. And here I thought I was the only one on arfcom. Murph and the gang are great Instructors. Planning any training with them this year?
3/17/2011 2:17:46 PM
Agreed with everything FrankSymptoms had to say. I haven't been to frontsite myself, but was doing a lot of research because I've been thinking of going there. All the info I have found supports what Frank has to say: the training is top notch, but the business practices are questionable. A little sidenote, I find it annoying that Piazza insists on constantly referring to himself as "Doctor" as if he had a PHD. in something relevant and not chiropracting(maybe he does and I am unaware, not sure). Anyways, I assume that training there is worth it if you can do like Frank said and find yourself a coupon.
3/18/2011 9:11:27 PM
Originally Posted By Agon:
Agreed with everything FrankSymptoms had to say. I haven't been to frontsite myself, but was doing a lot of research because I've been thinking of going there. All the info I have found supports what Frank has to say: the training is top notch, but the business practices are questionable. A little sidenote, I find it annoying that Piazza insists on constantly referring to himself as "Doctor" as if he had a PHD. in something relevant and not chiropracting(maybe he does and I am unaware, not sure). Anyways, I assume that training there is worth it if you can do like Frank said and find yourself a coupon.
Agreed with everything FrankSymptoms had to say. I haven't been to frontsite myself, but was doing a lot of research because I've been thinking of going there. All the info I have found supports what Frank has to say: the training is top notch, but the business practices are questionable. A little sidenote, I find it annoying that Piazza insists on constantly referring to himself as "Doctor" as if he had a PHD. in something relevant and not chiropracting(maybe he does and I am unaware, not sure). Anyways, I assume that training there is worth it if you can do like Frank said and find yourself a coupon.
Well chiropractors are called Dr., just like podiatrist.
3/19/2011 5:09:06 AM
Originally Posted By Seiran:
Another FTA guy. And here I thought I was the only one on arfcom. Murph and the gang are great Instructors. Planning any training with them this year?
Originally Posted By leungken:
Well, I posted in the General Discussion before about advices on Front Sight. Let me list my experience wrt to training:
Been to Gunsite, Front Sight, Firearm Training Associates, and Surefire, also a certified Surefire Lowlight instructor, and when I was a reserve LE, I was part of their training staff in pistol, shotgun, and carbine.
I have received training from Louie Arwbuck (Gunsite), Pat Rogers (Gunsite), and Bill Murphy (FTA).
I have a Front Sight First Family Membership, and had received some of my training over a decade ago, and since then, I have moved on.
Front Sight brand of training is good for beginners, their basic marksmanship training is good, and thats it.
Their tactics are flawed, their low light training contains error, and their mind set is all lip service.
Their facility sucks, I think they are still using portable toilet out there, and that have been more than a decade.
Their instructor teaches what they were told to teach, and their scope of their knowledge is actually quite limited, when compared to the instructors of Gunsite and FTA.
Well their training is worth the current market price of their certificate, $2-300 for 4 days.
For real training, go FTA or Gunsite.
Originally Posted By FrankSymptoms:
What you say is true.
Several of the other students in my class were GIs and they liked the training. A lot.
One of the neat things about FS is that there is very little pressure in the training class or on the firing line. Absolutely NO "boot camp" mentality. And the instructors know their stuff.
Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
Originally Posted By ZippZ:
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
. . . I haven't seen any bad reviews from people that actually took the class . . .
I don't believe I've ever seen a review of Front Sight by anyone that has any experience with other schools or has shooting experience beyond beginner levels.
Hard to have a frame of reference when there is nothing to compare it against.
What you say is true.
Several of the other students in my class were GIs and they liked the training. A lot.
One of the neat things about FS is that there is very little pressure in the training class or on the firing line. Absolutely NO "boot camp" mentality. And the instructors know their stuff.
Well, I posted in the General Discussion before about advices on Front Sight. Let me list my experience wrt to training:
Been to Gunsite, Front Sight, Firearm Training Associates, and Surefire, also a certified Surefire Lowlight instructor, and when I was a reserve LE, I was part of their training staff in pistol, shotgun, and carbine.
I have received training from Louie Arwbuck (Gunsite), Pat Rogers (Gunsite), and Bill Murphy (FTA).
I have a Front Sight First Family Membership, and had received some of my training over a decade ago, and since then, I have moved on.
Front Sight brand of training is good for beginners, their basic marksmanship training is good, and thats it.
Their tactics are flawed, their low light training contains error, and their mind set is all lip service.
Their facility sucks, I think they are still using portable toilet out there, and that have been more than a decade.
Their instructor teaches what they were told to teach, and their scope of their knowledge is actually quite limited, when compared to the instructors of Gunsite and FTA.
Well their training is worth the current market price of their certificate, $2-300 for 4 days.
For real training, go FTA or Gunsite.
Another FTA guy. And here I thought I was the only one on arfcom. Murph and the gang are great Instructors. Planning any training with them this year?
I have been quite busy, and travelling for the company quite a bit.
I need to re-up my Surefire Instructor Cert, and this year, if Murphy offer it, the long range precision rifle.
May do some refresh with the advanced tactical carbine if Gunsite have enough students, that is, if time allows. It is almost time to visit Hans Vang.
What about you?
3/19/2011 7:30:39 PM
I'm looking to take the Advanced Pistol/Low-Light in April, and another run of General Handgun - This time with a friend. Also thinking about squeezing in a carbine course if he's got one on the calender, as I should have my AR finished within the next 3 months.
3/21/2011 6:11:25 PM
Originally Posted By MikeSH:
Well chiropractors are called Dr., just like podiatrist.
Originally Posted By Agon:
Agreed with everything FrankSymptoms had to say. I haven't been to frontsite myself, but was doing a lot of research because I've been thinking of going there. All the info I have found supports what Frank has to say: the training is top notch, but the business practices are questionable. A little sidenote, I find it annoying that Piazza insists on constantly referring to himself as "Doctor" as if he had a PHD. in something relevant and not chiropracting(maybe he does and I am unaware, not sure). Anyways, I assume that training there is worth it if you can do like Frank said and find yourself a coupon.
Agreed with everything FrankSymptoms had to say. I haven't been to frontsite myself, but was doing a lot of research because I've been thinking of going there. All the info I have found supports what Frank has to say: the training is top notch, but the business practices are questionable. A little sidenote, I find it annoying that Piazza insists on constantly referring to himself as "Doctor" as if he had a PHD. in something relevant and not chiropracting(maybe he does and I am unaware, not sure). Anyways, I assume that training there is worth it if you can do like Frank said and find yourself a coupon.
Well chiropractors are called Dr., just like podiatrist.
Coupons on eBay.
3/22/2011 2:26:35 AM
Had to go back a ways to find this one:
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=9&f=1&t=225604
As an aside, chiropractors can call themselves Dr. and I can call myself a Navy SEAL, but that doesn't make either of the titles accurate.
I did four years of college, four years of med school and four years of residency to earn that title, although I don't think I have ever in my life introduced myself as "Dr. Juslearnin". That is a sure sign of insecurity, or having something to prove. If you are good at what you do, and know what you are doing, that inspires confidence which is much more valuable than a title. Some folks understand this, some folks don't.
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=9&f=1&t=225604
As an aside, chiropractors can call themselves Dr. and I can call myself a Navy SEAL, but that doesn't make either of the titles accurate.
I did four years of college, four years of med school and four years of residency to earn that title, although I don't think I have ever in my life introduced myself as "Dr. Juslearnin". That is a sure sign of insecurity, or having something to prove. If you are good at what you do, and know what you are doing, that inspires confidence which is much more valuable than a title. Some folks understand this, some folks don't.
