Magpul Malfunction Clearance Question?

I am a novice shooter looking to work on some drills. On the first Magpul DVD they demonstrate rolling the carbine to look into the ejection port to (I assume) see what type or how severe the malf. is.

Can someone explain to me the purpose this serves at nighttime or in low light? Seems like I would be training on an inefficient technique if it does not work for most if not all circumstances.

I'm looking for some clear and efficient clearance techniques to practice. I'm not sure the Magpul one is it.... due to what I see as a failing above. Either set me straight or give me the good stuff!




ps. I did find the document linked below. I like the MUSH means RIP, CLICK means TAP mantra. Simple, no looking. Opinions?

http://www.mdtstraining.com/Carbine%20Malfunctions_MDTS_Part1.pdf

http://www.mdtstraining.com/Carbine%20Malfunctions_MDTS_Part2.pdf

Its to ascertain the status of the bolt, either in battery, out of battery etc

How well does this work at night?

It does not vary well. The point is to get basic operating principles down to rote memory so we can use our brains for the un-ordinary ones. Magpul's techniques do not give anyone the right to be a mindless operator. In my humble opinion whatever works the best at night is what is used. Different things work for me but unless you have no cover at all or the opposition has NVG's then you have the night time on your side which can give cover. Just my .02

I guess as I'm just trying to wrap my head around this...My initial thought is that these immediate action drills should be learned so they are almost automatic.....ie. mindless. Feel a click on the trigger...TAP-RACK-BANG. ....or feel mush on the trigger RIP IT, RACK IT (to clear it), LOAD IT.

The remedial action, I suppose comes in after the immediate actions didn't work. I can then see needing to investigate further....for example, looking or if need be feeling inside the chamber to try and diagnose.

It just seems to me looking first would be a time waster for the most common malfunctions.....especially if it happens to be nighttime. Am I way off base here?

I think the stuff Chris Fry put out in those docs is very solid.

A couple things to consider:

A lot of fights take place in daylight or in places where there is enough ambient light to see what is going on- it doesn't take much. If you catch a glint of brass you know it's not a reload or TRB-able problem. So even in the dark you get mush, see a glint & know the gun isn't empty & it wasn't a fail to feed or fire.

Once you become familiar with the platform a lot of the cues that trigger manipulations become so ingrained that you can shortcut the process.

When your gun stops working the natural tendency is to look at it. Maybe instead of trying to fight that we should try to maximize it & use it to our advantage.

I think there is an advantage to a diagnostic/semi-diagnostic approach (ala Magpul & MDTS, albeit differently) because you're cutting through waste movements/processes & know you're addressing the real problem.

You can omit the roll and look, just get your type 3 malfunction clearance time down to under 3 seconds and use that every time anything stops working. After you transition to your working firearm and stop the threat of course

Are you really going to notice a mushy trigger or feel a click under stress, when there are bullets flying past your head???

Not a fan of that technique.. I understand there thought, take a quick look and the result of that look will drive how simple or involved you need to get to clear the problem, But Immediate action is just that...There technique is combining immediate with remedial.

Push/Pull , Rack Roll has worked for me for years... works day, night, hot, cold, tired, scared, pissed off, wet, muddy, dazed and confused, with a Gas mask on, with gloves,fully kitted out, butt naked and on both sides of the equator.....

When you get a dead trigger (I press it and no boom....) I go to Push..Pull.. Rack.. Roll and that clears 80% of all malfunctions (Unless I have a pistol, then I transition.)

If that does not work, then I go to remedial action.

I agree. Old school and "presence of mind".

The downside to immediately rolling into push/pull rack/roll is that it can make a doublefeed worse.

I view it as how much time is lost & what are the potential downsides of one technique vs another.

For the immediate action folks, can/how do you distinguish between a malfunction & an empty gun? Do you run your immediate action every time the gun stops working & then if that doesn't work you make your way down the branches of your decision tree?

Nothing will work for every situation though. Eating a shit sandwich starts with the first bite. Corner or edge, take your pick.

YammyMonkey



If you shoot enough, you feel when your locking back on an empty mag....If were talking IA/RA drills, then were talking a more experiences shooter to begin with. And since about 80% of malfunctions are cleared with Push/Pull/Rack Roll and this can be done in pitch darkness. So are you going to switch back and forth between this Hybrid IA when you can see in the ejection port and then switch back when it's too dark??

And from my experience, Push/Pull rack roll does not make a malfunction worse, if you have a Type 2 or Type "ate" you going to have to switch gears anyhow and either transition if you can or seek cover and go to a RA drill.. or a muzzle strike.. or go with a knife, or hands on.. or prepare to meet your maker...lots of options..

I know the Hybrid IA Magpul teaches is popular now.. but any IA drill that requires me to have to see something is not limiting my ability. We all have to make choices...


And also as an afterthought, the majority of shooters I watch rarely execute a IA drill flawlessly to begin with, and many have a sidearm.. have a malfuction and start bangin on there AR with some bastardized version of Tap/Rack Bang/SPORTS/PPRR and then shake there AR for good measure... When it comes to IA.. KISS is a very sound SOP.

I don't have an absolute opinion either way to be quite honest. I think the most important thing for all of us to remember is that both ways have a down side that we need to be aware of.

I don't think there's a higher level of experience required to start practicing malfunction drills- I was just curious what some folks were doing as I've heard some trainers say that you should go straight to IA if the gun stops working which seems a little silly to me. I agree with you that you can feel it run dry or, in the case of a pistol, spot the locked back slide in most cases.

As far as the dark is concerned if you're trained up to look at the gun when it stops, how much time do you give up to take a peek even if you can't see anything? .10- .25 second? In the grand scheme of things, what is the percentage of your IA time spend looking vs. working? I don't think most people would be able to gain a significant time benefit by skipping the look regardless of the lighting conditions. Especially when you factor in movement when the gun stops.

When I've staged doublefeeds the ones I PPRR first tend to be harder to clear than the ones I go straight into the doublefeed procedure for. Granted, it's an artificial malfunction but that's been my experience. I do agree that you'll have a distinct feedback when dealing with a type ate/bolt over base/whateveryouwanttocallit & the PPRR won't have an effect one way or the other.

On a side note, the reasoning for not looking & rolling right into IA is less persuasive for a left handed shooter since the face is already on the same side as the ejection port & you can easily peek while orienting the weapon for whatever procedure is next.

Next time I hit the range I'll put both ways to the timer & see what the difference is.

So now the question is, is it better to have some bastardized version of IA that you fumble about or is it better to just stare at the gun like I saw a bunch of people doing at a match a few weeks ago?

YammyMonkey



I guess that is my point.. Why train yourself to a standard that requires you to have to "stop and think"? and let's be honest.. most folks who time themselves are doing it under ideal conditions... and that .10-.25 seconds is realistically going to be more like 1-2 seconds... under stress.

Watch when someone is shooting on the move and they experience a malfunction.. even thought there instructed to keep moving or transition... they will come to a grinding halt and start to initiate the strangest of IA's. I find keeping things simple and intuitive will have a better chance of working when you need it. just my take.

Thanks for the replies guys. Harv....your assessment is backing up my initial thoughts on this. I want something simple....immediate....automatic for 80% of malfs......not looking for something in the ejection port, then having to decide what to do.

Then, if the tap-rack-bang doesn't work,decide to transition to pistol or get more in depth to unfuck the rifle as the situation dictates.

Keeping the IAD simple....I think....would also help me stay aware of other things....moving, scanning, etc.

what the hell are you guys shooting at that you can see your target but not your weapon?

Well that would actually be ideal. In a perfect world you would be shooting at an illuminated enemy and be in total darkness yourself.

Jay

true but thats the kind of thing that has to presighted and planned in advance. and falls into the realm of military tactics or in a civilian case, probably murder. it never just happens. at least not in my experience.

Your missing the point.. I don't want a technique for clearing a malfunction that relies on me having to take precious time and also have to look at it and make a decision.

Will I be in total darkness... most likely not, but if I am, then my technique will still work.... That's how you pick a technique... the best ones work in just about every condition... those are the time tested ones that work... I like that..

Harv24,

"Hull Down".

i see your point on the first statement, it is nice to be able to autopilot your way through shit. however some automatic responses make some malfunctions worse. in these cases you didnt really save any time. lets say you have a bolt override or a failure to extract and you TRB you will be very fucked and have just wasted a few seconds.

looking first forces you to make the correct decision, you either fix it the first time or you draw your secondary (i am assuming were dealing with a rifle of the AR15 persuasion and are running a sidearm) and go to work till you die or win.

i think it comes down to either:

a) you lose a half second on every malfunction plus the time to clear it or

b) you lose no time on some malfunctions or make other malfuntions worse plus the time to perform IA, identify and clear the new jam.

it would be nice to see a matrix of total malfunction probablity and average time to clear for each method. thats way too much to hope for though.

on the second point i believe that a malfunction in a gunfight in total darkness where its dependent on your life to clear a malfunction is exceedingly rare. does it happen, sure, but i dont believe it happens with the frequency to justify basing a method around it

ymmv i use the look and clear technique

respecfully

In my experience, If I follow a good malfunction clearing procedure, one that is not diagnostic.. I have never made the malfunction worse..What makes it worse, is when a shooter panics, and starts out correctly, but then starts to get ate up and bastardize the process until he is just plain fucked...

Watching shooters do malfunction clearance is a lot like watching folks back up boat trailers at a boat launch... most start out fine, but it goes south real quick. Most guys think there only taking a half second... but that half second turns int a half minute real quick...It's not just about darkness, its the automatic response that comes with repetition. Would you rather take you eyes off the threat to look at something that does not need to be diagnosed??

Most guys don't run a gun like Travis or Chris... and really don't have the skill set they do to use that technique... most of us are regular joes who need to stick with a tried and true technique that has stood the test of time... and in the end, it's not the technique as much as how smoothly and proficiently you execute it....if it works for you .. use it... just not for me.

fair enough.

different strokes and all that. i like to question the common knowledge as much as i can to find out whats true and whats just repeated dogma. im a real hater of the fine motor skills arguement too. it makes me very unpopular

I think the main thing to consider is that WHATEVER technique you train you should train it for all scenarios. If you are training one way for daylight and one for night, you have to stop and think about which technique you're going to use. That's why (I think) Magpul teaches the one way. Sure it's hard to see in the dark (assume you have a light on your target but are in the dark) but not having to remember all the other steps up that point allow you additional time to modify in the dark. I'm not expert by any means. I just know that training consistently is going to reduce how much you have to think about on the go. If there is a better method than the MD class then by all means, use it.

My belief is you take all Scenarios and pick the technique that works for the majority of them...And that is why I don't use the MD technique.
I watch too many shooters (myself included) over think the problem.

Ya, that's pretty much what I was trying to say. Pick a style and go with it.

agree 100%, seems a habitual waste of fractions of seconds and also your eyes are no longer down range; with experience you can tell the difference between the bolt locking back on an empty magazine and malfunctions.

The immediate and remedial actions are uniform to get your rifle back in action and yes, any reliance on the visual is negated at night or darkness.

before I started working for magpul as an instructor and having harv24 as a line Mate once or twice(he liked my legs)
I was also pretty standard as well on malfunction clearances as you guys have stated......

Once i applied the Techniques i learned in the first 2 classes i took with magpul long before being offered me a job my times clearing malfs decreased and the applications made sense to me more so than than going through the usual steps we had trained in for years.....
While we still use and teach push pull rack roll ..... there are other factors in the double feed clearances im much faster verifying the malfunction then clearing it the first time

having had several head hunters and guys that aren't just lucky taking back the TTPs shown to there units and the follow up letters from them they seam to approve of them,

One conversation related to several what ifs.. and having witnessed these in classes are students have been ramped up by various physical activities and full kit
Not even realizing there guns were at bolt lock or double fed thye tried to apply standard Immediate action drills which then led them too remedial which in turn took them much longer to fix the problem were a simple chamber check worked wonders during a recent night shoot a highly trained marine recon solider and BTDT guy was using the same ttps we taught by breaking the gun down moving and clearing the malf a double feed with and without NODS in the class with great ease

also having seen push pull rack roll causing a simple fte into a double is very common in classes.....

while some will disregard it as BS and flash it works well and makes sense when taught it and given the explanations on the hows and whys
while one thing doesn't work for some i have seen it work on the clock in matches and FOF and in many classes......


harv most joes should practice the things they are not good at.... shooting is the easy part training guys to become better problem solvers is another

I think the look method during the day is still a valid method. If it's a value added technique that can reduce the number of compounding malfunction drills then I'm all for it if Time and Opportunity is there. In the dark I'll do the same motion minus the look since I know I won't see anything.

for some most will never work in total dark environment other will have NOD's it has value in low to no light situations so we as big boys make a choice based on what we know and feel or may not feel what the gun is telling us based on many factors

it is up to the end user

That's the problem I have with it.. you need to do something differently in once scenario then in another... For me that's a choice


I agree with you Steve.. it's big boy rules... I'm too stubborn to change for the slightly perceived gain I may or may not get out of it...

And I've been in the dark for years........

Adaptation

You know i love you in the dark brother

Copyright © 1996 - 2013 :: AR15.Com LLC :: All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.