AR15.Com Archives
 NY State - Does a muzzle brake have to be pin welded?
hokeyplyr48  [Member]
10/17/2009 11:31:27 AM
I'm in the process of building an AR and the New York State gun laws are driving me crazy. I live in NC but I go to college up in NY and it's really stupid that I can't have the things I want since I'm up here most of the time.

But anyway, I was wondering if you had to permanently attach a muzzle brake on the barrel to comply with NY state's gun laws? Do people permanently attach it because their barrel is 14.5"? My barrel will be 18" so I'm not sure if it still has to be welded.

Thanks so much
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mathecb  [Team Member]
10/17/2009 9:36:25 AM
Yes.
http://www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm
rageracing  [Team Member]
10/17/2009 9:37:25 AM
Yes the MB has to be permanently attached (blind pin and welded) regardless of barrel length. The OAL of the barrel must be 16in. or more. NY sucks
hokeyplyr48  [Member]
10/17/2009 10:00:56 AM
God NY sucks.

Well are there any semi-permanent ways to attach them? So down the road you could possibly change it (with some work obviously) but it still passes?
rychencop  [Team Member]
10/17/2009 10:07:26 AM
guns don't kill people, muzzle breaks and FH's do.
sbninja  [Member]
10/17/2009 10:11:29 AM
Semi-permanent would not be permanent, and would therfore, not be legal.

That being said, you can remove a "permanantly' attached muzzle brake, that has been attached by blind pinning and welding - with enough work
hokeyplyr48  [Member]
10/17/2009 10:14:24 AM
haha I know that's why I mentioned with some work.

Looks like I'll have to be reading up on that, or I might just have ADCO do it since I don't have any experience with soldering. Any guides/suggestions?
sbninja  [Member]
10/17/2009 10:31:59 AM
Originally Posted By hokeyplyr48:
Any guides/suggestions?


Yes, go to the "build it yourself" section and check out this stickie
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=226782

about 3/4 of the way down on the first page, "Remove your permanently attached muzzle device" and "How to permanently attach a muzzle device"

hokeyplyr48  [Member]
10/17/2009 10:39:18 AM
Thanks you so much for the information, I'll go through and read all this.
Vinnie  [Team Member]
10/17/2009 11:57:52 AM
You muzzle device only needs to be permenantly attached if you have a threaded muzzle. If it's attached via a set screw and you have a plain muzzle you are ok.
rkbar15  [Team Member]
10/17/2009 1:01:22 PM

Originally Posted By Vinnie:
You muzzle device only needs to be permenantly attached if you have a threaded muzzle. If it's attached via a set screw and you have a plain muzzle you are ok.

+1 In addition there is no "approved" method in NYS to permanently attach a muzzle device on a threaded barrel. The best you can do is use one of the ATF approved methods to "permanently" cover the threads on a postban rifle. As long as the threaded barrel is 16" without the muzzle device it does not need to be blind pinned but you still must use one of the other ATF approved methods.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/nfa_handbook-rev0409.pdf

Page 18

The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod
into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the
furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and
measured.
Addicted2Fish  [Member]
10/17/2009 5:16:59 PM
Within a year and a half or less we will be able to sue the features ban out of existence.
sherdog16  [Member]
10/17/2009 7:37:50 PM
Originally Posted By Addicted2Fish:
Within a year and a half or less we will be able to sue the features ban out of existence.


What do you mean by that? Fire mission?
Aardvark  [Member]
10/17/2009 8:24:16 PM
Originally Posted By Addicted2Fish:
Within a year and a half or less we will be able to sue the features ban out of existence.
That is assuming a positive SCOTUS ruling. I am not counting on anything until the hearing is over and the ink is dry on the ruling. Kennedy is the big question mark. Ginsburg has not been well but should she require replacement it will be no net loss since her replacement would rule no just like she did in Heller.

defconfive  [Member]
10/18/2009 12:59:16 AM

Originally Posted By hokeyplyr48:
haha I know that's why I mentioned with some work.

Looks like I'll have to be reading up on that, or I might just have ADCO do it since I don't have any experience with soldering. Any guides/suggestions?

Since there is no soldering involved, but welding rather, you should definitely send it off to ADCO or another professional.
NY_Shooter  [Team Member]
10/18/2009 6:08:02 AM
Originally Posted By Vinnie:
You muzzle device only needs to be permenantly attached if you have a threaded muzzle. If it's attached via a set screw and you have a plain muzzle you are ok.


I'm going to use this thread to ask another question, given the above response........

I have a Saiga 7.62x39 that I converted (922r and NY compliant), which do not have threaded muzzles.

There is a device that you can buy, that slips over the FSB, which has threads on it, and allows you to use regular AK brakes/hiders. But you still don't have an actual threaded muzzle, or threads on the barrel itself.

Does the above response, mean an NY resident can use this device to attach a brake, and it not have to worry about it being permanently attached?

This is the device in question: http://dpharms.com/saiga-muzzle-clip-for-762223-rifles-p-1027.html
tjd  [Member]
10/18/2009 6:18:03 AM
A little trick I use with thread protectors, when welding the head of the pin, is to take a piece of copper with an appropriately sized hole drilled in it, secure it over the pin head and weld. A piece of copper tubing usually works for me.

The weld does not bond to the copper and it keeps everything neat.

rkbar15  [Team Member]
10/18/2009 7:58:33 AM

Originally Posted By NY_Shooter:

There is a device that you can buy, that slips over the FSB, which has threads on it, and allows you to use regular AK brakes/hiders. But you still don't have an actual threaded muzzle, or threads on the barrel itself.


So the question is is threads almost but not quite on the barrel a threaded barrel or is it not a threaded barrel. For that is question we ask Slick Willy.

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the––if he––if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not––that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true." –– Bill Clinton


Dieter122  [Member]
10/18/2009 9:26:39 AM
Originally Posted By rkbar15:

Originally Posted By NY_Shooter:

There is a device that you can buy, that slips over the FSB, which has threads on it, and allows you to use regular AK brakes/hiders. But you still don't have an actual threaded muzzle, or threads on the barrel itself.


So the question is is threads almost but not quite on the barrel a threaded barrel or is it not a threaded barrel. For that is question we ask Slick Willy.

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the––if he––if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not––that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true." –– Bill Clinton




its walking on a tight rope, this slip on threaded device adapter, I know exactly what he is talking about too. Technically its not part of the barrel as its not perm attached (per ATF, would have to be pinned/welded 3/4 etc).
Vinnie  [Team Member]
10/18/2009 9:59:39 AM
Originally Posted By NY_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Vinnie:
You muzzle device only needs to be permenantly attached if you have a threaded muzzle. If it's attached via a set screw and you have a plain muzzle you are ok.


I'm going to use this thread to ask another question, given the above response........

I have a Saiga 7.62x39 that I converted (922r and NY compliant), which do not have threaded muzzles.

There is a device that you can buy, that slips over the FSB, which has threads on it, and allows you to use regular AK brakes/hiders. But you still don't have an actual threaded muzzle, or threads on the barrel itself.

Does the above response, mean an NY resident can use this device to attach a brake, and it not have to worry about it being permanently attached?

This is the device in question: http://dpharms.com/saiga-muzzle-clip-for-762223-rifles-p-1027.html


The evil threaded muzzle is for a threaded muzzle that can accept a flash hider. The federal AWB specified a flashider that can support a grenade launcher. The NYS Penal law just outlaws flash hiders. There was a company that during the ban produced a brake with a different thread from the common flash hiders used and sold them as ban compliant. So you just have to make sure that no flash hiders or grenade launchers can be affixed with the threaded muzzle. As for being worried about it, I'd say you could probably not be worried about conviction, but the possibility of having your gun confiscate for testing is a possibility.

rkbar15  [Team Member]
10/18/2009 11:21:08 AM

Originally Posted By Diane Feinswine:

See the AWB has been an outstanding success. It has entirely eliminated drive-by grenade launchings in the U.S..



BKLYN_C  [Member]
10/18/2009 11:32:41 AM
Originally Posted By Dieter122:
Originally Posted By rkbar15:

Originally Posted By NY_Shooter:

There is a device that you can buy, that slips over the FSB, which has threads on it, and allows you to use regular AK brakes/hiders. But you still don't have an actual threaded muzzle, or threads on the barrel itself.


So the question is is threads almost but not quite on the barrel a threaded barrel or is it not a threaded barrel. For that is question we ask Slick Willy.

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the––if he––if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not––that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true." –– Bill Clinton




its walking on a tight rope, this slip on threaded device adapter, I know exactly what he is talking about too. Technically its not part of the barrel as its not perm attached (per ATF, would have to be pinned/welded 3/4 etc).


Not exactly 3/4". This applies only to permanent barrel extentions, ie making 14" barrel into 16". Threaded barrel attachments should be spot-welded or pin-welded.

There was a discussion thread on saiga-12 about these set-screw kits. The guy had pictures if sliding off the barrel while shooting an eventually that thing came off and broke apart.

winters921  [Member]
10/18/2009 12:44:23 PM
Originally Posted By NY_Shooter:
Originally Posted By Vinnie:
You muzzle device only needs to be permenantly attached if you have a threaded muzzle. If it's attached via a set screw and you have a plain muzzle you are ok.


I'm going to use this thread to ask another question, given the above response........

I have a Saiga 7.62x39 that I converted (922r and NY compliant), which do not have threaded muzzles.

There is a device that you can buy, that slips over the FSB, which has threads on it, and allows you to use regular AK brakes/hiders. But you still don't have an actual threaded muzzle, or threads on the barrel itself.

Does the above response, mean an NY resident can use this device to attach a brake, and it not have to worry about it being permanently attached?

This is the device in question: http://dpharms.com/saiga-muzzle-clip-for-762223-rifles-p-1027.html


I would really like to know a definitive answer to this if someone has one i want to put one on my saiga but i am not sure about the legal factor.

Daytona955i  [Team Member]
10/21/2009 10:24:35 AM
You would be best served by picking up a post ban upper and non telescoping or collapsible stock.
Spikehorn11  [Member]
10/21/2009 10:46:07 AM
Just buy a pre ban lower and your good to go.
rkbar15  [Team Member]
10/21/2009 10:47:32 AM
Move to NH and you're good to go too.
Thatdude333  [Team Member]
10/21/2009 1:12:15 PM

Originally Posted By hokeyplyr48:
I'm in the process of building an AR and the New York State gun laws are driving me crazy. I live in NC but I go to college up in NY and it's really stupid that I can't have the things I want since I'm up here most of the time.

But anyway, I was wondering if you had to permanently attach a muzzle brake on the barrel to comply with NY state's gun laws? Do people permanently attach it because their barrel is 14.5"? My barrel will be 18" so I'm not sure if it still has to be welded.

Thanks so much

Where you going to college?
gunner-1  [Member]
11/3/2009 6:03:16 PM
Originally Posted By Vinnie:
You muzzle device only needs to be permenantly attached if you have a threaded muzzle. If it's attached via a set screw and you have a plain muzzle you are ok.


So the device that Brownells sells that is a set of threads that attaches with three set screws would be allowable for flash suppressor use in NY?

Vinnie  [Team Member]
11/3/2009 7:56:57 PM
Originally Posted By gunner-1:
Originally Posted By Vinnie:
You muzzle device only needs to be permenantly attached if you have a threaded muzzle. If it's attached via a set screw and you have a plain muzzle you are ok.


So the device that Brownells sells that is a set of threads that attaches with three set screws would be allowable for flash suppressor use in NY?



If the upper is going on a "preban" lower, then yes. Otherwise, Flashiders are a no-no.

justice18  [Member]
11/4/2009 11:46:44 AM
non threaded barrel, pin and welded brake, non collapseable stock, no bayonnet mount. magazines - pre ban stamped if possible. other than that good luck with the build.
O_DubhGhaill  [Team Member]
11/4/2009 12:43:26 PM
Someone please advise me where in New York Penal Law Article 265 (or anywhere in the New York Penal Law) there is any mention of "muzzle break" and the requirements I am reading about permanently attaching same.

NYPL Art. 265 states:
22. "Assault weapon" means
(a) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to
accept a detachable magazine and has at least
two of the following characteristics:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously
beneath the action of the weapon;
(iii) a bayonet mount;
(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed
to accommodate a flash suppressor
;
(v) a grenade launcher;

A muzzle break is not a flash suppressor. Therefore, a "threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor" is not a threaded barrel designed to accommodate a muzzle break if a muzzle break and not a flash suppressor is attached. As such, muzzle breaks or barrels designed to accommodate a muzzle break are not one of the characteristics of an "assault weapon" per the only statute that applies to this topic.

If this is not correct, again, I would very much like to read the applicable New York law regarding muzzle breaks and permanent attachment requirements. Have New York courts interpreted this statute and held that muzzle breaks and flash suppressors are one and the same thing for purposes of the statute above? I have done some searching and have not found any such case.

One theory I have read somewhere, again, without any legal cite, is that since the New York ban was intended to mirror the federal ban of 1994, BATFE rulings on this issue of muzzle breaks and permanent attachment would apply to New York's law above. If this is so, what New York case established such an "incorporation" of all BATFE administrative rulings regarding the federal AWB and specifically, the definition above regarding flash suppressors. Perhaps my general research or Westlaw-foo is off, and if so, I most certainly would like to remedy that.
rkbar15  [Team Member]
11/4/2009 2:07:01 PM

O_DubhGhaill  [Team Member]
11/4/2009 3:30:40 PM


? "Image unavailable"
rkbar15  [Team Member]
11/4/2009 4:14:40 PM
How about now?
O_DubhGhaill  [Team Member]
11/4/2009 4:53:01 PM
Originally Posted By rkbar15:
How about now?


Got it now! I broke my screen and am still stressed! Yeah, I know, but I have yet to discover a reliable source to confirm the New York muzzle-brake-ban myth...just amazing how the only one's who stress this are the ones who would never commit a crime with or without a cosmetically enhanced "assault weapon" anyway. Ah, New York. Anyways, having moved to this state just a few years ago from Philadelphia, I bid you all: GO PHILLIES!
squirrell18  [Team Member]
11/6/2009 4:13:50 PM
Or just get a preban lower receiver.
NY_Shooter  [Team Member]
11/6/2009 4:27:01 PM
Originally Posted By O_DubhGhaill:
Ah, New York. Anyways, having moved to this state just a few years ago from Philadelphia, I bid you all: GO PHILLIES!


Yankees––-> <––-Phillies

Yankees––-> <––-Phillies
MPi-KMS-72  [Member]
11/6/2009 7:54:31 PM
Originally Posted By hokeyplyr48:
I'm in the process of building an AR and the New York State gun laws are driving me crazy. I live in NC but I go to college up in NY and it's really stupid that I can't have the things I want since I'm up here most of the time.

But anyway, I was wondering if you had to permanently attach a muzzle brake on the barrel to comply with NY state's gun laws? Do people permanently attach it because their barrel is 14.5"? My barrel will be 18" so I'm not sure if it still has to be welded.

Thanks so much


You know I suppose you might be able to have a threaded barrel if it was threaded in a manner that was unique- and for which there was no flash suppressor available. You won't find any NY ruling on this but the ATF at least at one point allowed the 22mm Romanian AK74 Muzzlebreak because those threads were unique and no flash suppressors were out there for them.

Frankly though I just don't see the point.
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