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 Anybody interested in short barreled rifles and shotguns in MI?
Dr-Dremel  [Member]
8/25/2007 9:11:52 AM
Short barreled rifles and shotguns are legal in Michigan! That's right, they are legal in Michigan. ATF will approve a form 1 if the gun is a Curio and Relic and you are a C&R licensee. I know this for a fact as I have done it successfully not 1, not 2, but 3 times now.

hrough careful study of the wording of state law, which is as follows:
Definitions:
"(i) "Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having 1 or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or a weapon made from
a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26
inches.
(k) "Short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having 1 or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a weapon made from a rifle,
whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches."

The actual law regarding these two classifications:
"750.224b Short-barreled shotgun or rifle; manufacture, sale, or possession as felony; penalty; exceptions;
applicability of § 776.20.
Sec. 224b. (1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled
rifle.
(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or a fine
of not more than $2,500.00, or both.
(3) The provisions of this section shall not apply to the sale, offering for sale or possession of a short-barreled rifle or a short barreled
shotgun which the secretary of the treasury of the United States of America, or his delegate, pursuant to U.S.C. title 26, section 5801 through 5872, or U.S.C. title 18, sections 921 through 928, has found to be a curio, relic, antique, museum piece
or collector’s item not likely to be used as a weapon
, but only if the person selling, offering for sale or possessing the firearm has also fully complied with the provisions of sections 2 and 9 of Act No. 372 of the Public Acts of 1927, as amended, being sections 28.422 and 28.429 of the Michigan Compiled Laws. The provisions of section 20 of chapter 16 of Act No. 175 of the Public Acts of 1927, as added by Act No. 299 of the Public Acts of 1968, being section 776.20 of the Michigan Compiled Laws,
are applicable to this subsection."

Note that any firearm in which the Secretary of the treasury has deemed to be a curio or relic does not apply to the prohibition.

So if you have a firearm that is a curio and relic, get the CLEO signature, file a form 1 and pay the taxes, you can indeed have a short barreled firearm in Michigan. According to Michigan law, you must get a safety inspection as these firearms are under 30 inches. I tested my conclusion on a form 1 to add a stock to a 1911 earlier this year. It went through with no problem. I then purchased a 10/22 and Remington 870 which are both C&R firearms. These were also approved. This is because the 10/22 is specifically listed in the C&R list, and the 870 falls under the 50 year old rule. If a firearm is 50 years old, it qualifies as a C&R firearm.

Bill Poynter
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cybersniper  [Member]
8/25/2007 11:52:20 AM
I like the thinking on this and I see you got some approved. However, doesnt altering a C&R rifle, like a 10/22 or 50yo 870, change its C&R status? Therefore no longer a C&R and no longer falls under the C&R provision? I thought the provision only applied to C&R SBR and SBS that are already in that configuration, like older 14" barreled Winchester lever actions.

Also where are 10/22's listed on the C&R list. I know some may fall under the 50yo rule but cant find them on the list.

A SBR M1 Carbine or SKS would be cool (If the gas systems would still work).
Dr-Dremel  [Member]
8/25/2007 5:36:16 PM
In order to one it, ATF has to classifiy it as a C&R gun. By changing the barrel length it is not more likely to be used in a crime, which is what the law was created to prohibit. In fact, registering it as an SBS or SBR makes it less likely to be used in a crime.

Ironically, the 10/22 on the list is a 1967 Canadian Centennial gun.

I have plans for more myself.
BustOff  [Team Member]
8/25/2007 7:29:27 PM
You're satisfying federal, state and local law in order to own an SBR/SBS in Michigan - that's all you're doing. It's been done. The sticking point is state law. State law has been satisfied and the exception to the prohibition has been properly executed...Dr Dremel has convinced his CLEO and the NFABATFE of legality and the NFABATFE must approve his application to build (FORM1) an SBR/SBS as long as there is NO violation of federal, state or local law and the fed tax and other reqirements are met.

C&R status is not changed under Michigan law. All Michigan law cares about - obviously, is that the C&R SBR/SBS is starting out it's life as a federally declared C&R to start with. What it is after that is a C&R SBR/SBS under state law.

Good work guys - yet another chip in the liberal foundation of un-American gun laws in the state of Michigan!
Lumpy223  [Moderator]
8/25/2007 9:16:22 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmm............

This has me looking at my old Remington Model 11 in a whole new light.
Dr-Dremel  [Member]
8/25/2007 9:40:40 PM
I mave been making a mental list of potentials since this started. I have the three I wanted the most, but there are some others I am planning as well.
cybersniper  [Member]
8/26/2007 10:39:24 AM
This is good news indeed.

What is needed to satify (prove) the C&R status on a 50yo let say Rem 870. A letter from Remington or just some refernce material which shown the serial number ranges?
Small_Arms_Collector  [Member]
8/26/2007 4:38:07 PM
Wow, sure shit, page 26 of the April 2004 Revision Curio, or Relics list lists:

Ruger, Canadian Centennial, Model 10/22, carbine.
Ruger, 10/22 Canadian Centennial, carbine with S/Ns C1 to C4500
Dr-Dremel  [Member]
8/26/2007 8:06:37 PM
We are looking at two things. Federal law says they are C&R. MI law says as long as they are C&R, they can be SBR/SBS. As I have not tried that yet, you would have to try to see what happens. Both of mine are convertible back to their original barrels so it has not been tried yet.
Small_Arms_Collector  [Member]
8/26/2007 8:41:23 PM

Originally Posted By uofmguy68:
so heres some question.... the yugo SKS is a C&R rifle... very cheap $100-$200

but i was told before this info came around that i can not modify a C&R sks from dunhams... if i did so that would change its C&R status and it would become an imported rifle....which would require me to make it meet 922r if i want to put a different stock on it... loose the bayo... or make it able accept detachible mags..... or even change the muzzle device...

i dunno how legit this info that i was told is.. but i really dont see a difference from a C&R 10/22 vs a C&R yugo sks....

heres is a excript from the atf C&R update list:

Yugoslavian manufactured rifles M59 and M59/66, 7.62 x 39mm caliber, all semiautomatic variations and having a fixed magazine, manufactured from 1947 to 1992.



This information is 100% Correct, I'm actually surprised you found someone at Dunhams who knew about it, thats pretty detailed stuff, there must be someone at least semi-knowledgeable working at your store. The Yugoslavian M-59/66 SKS is only importable due to it's C&R status, without it it fails the "sporting purpose test" of 922r, as it has 4 evil features under 922r, a threaded barrel, grenade launcher, Bayonet, and Night Sights, and one could argue that the ported grenade launchers are also Flash Suppressors, which would bring you to 5 evil features, but 922r only allows 1 evil feature. If you modify it you void the C&R status, and thus become subject to 922r. In order to become compliant you would either need the correct number of US parts, which though not impossible, is very hard with an SKS, or you'll need to make it pass the "sporting purposes test" meaning you'll have to loose the bayonet (not just the bayonet it's self, but the lug to), you'll have to take off the night sights, remove the Grenade Launcher, then grind off the threads, or alternatively, replace the Grenade Launcher with a muzzle break, then permanently attach it like the kalifornia style Yugo M59/66 SKS's, thats if you want to have a removable magazine, if you want to keep the fixed magazine, or expand it to a larger, but still FIXED magazine then you can keep ONE of the original evil features. In either case passing the "sporting Purposes test would require alot of work, and extensive bubbafication, better to simply find the compliance parts.

But please do not permanently modify you Yugoslavian M-59/66, or any other military rifle, or pistol it's a piece of history, and you'll destroy that history forever if you bubba it, not to mention destroying the collectors, and resale value for yourself, they don't make these anymore.

Now as for how these other weapons (Remington 870, and Ruger 10/22) can be modified from there original C&R form without loosing there C&R status, well they CAN'T, but Federal, and Michigan law are to different things, and while it may not be C&R anymore under Federal law, it still is under Michigan state law, as Michigan seems to only care about the receiver in this case. You don't have to worry about 922r either as SBR's, and SBS's are covered under the NFA, NOT 922r, so C&R status is irrelevent as far as Federal law is concerned.
Dr-Dremel  [Member]
8/26/2007 8:54:16 PM
Small Arms Collector understands exactly what I did from the sounds of it. Yes there are Federal and State laws here and they both have been satisfied. The biggest problem I had was that the software that my department uses to print out the green cards had no way of printing Short barreled rifle of shotgun. It was not a choice in the program dropdown menu. But rest assured, ATF does not approve NFA items that are not clarified with the state.
kevins_garage  [Member]
8/27/2007 1:19:18 PM
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but once you get approval to SBR/SBS, I was under the impression that waived the 922r compliance requirements for previously imported firearms (HK94 to MP5 - HK USC to UMP - and others).
uofmguy68  [Member]
8/27/2007 3:46:38 PM
loosing the 922r garbage when you go form1 sounds right to me... not to shure where i read/seen that info.....

but for the mean time i am planning on taking the simple route and building an hk51 pistol, FAL pistol.... so i can go as short as i want with the barrels for now, i already have a AR pistol and my ak pistol is near completion.... and dont need to worry about 922 since it only appies to sporting RIFLES and not pistols... and then later down the road i can either move to a SBS/SBR friendly state when i finish college or if michigan ever changes the law and allows SBR/SBS and form1 then back into rifles....
chickrepelent  [Team Member]
8/27/2007 5:39:35 PM

Originally Posted By Dr-Dremel
ATF does not approve NFA items that are not clarified with the state.


About a year ago, at least one person in Michigan had the silencer approved before the ATF realized their mistake.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you on this, it sounds like you're on to something good.
Dr-Dremel  [Member]
8/27/2007 6:58:24 PM
Actually that is a good point. That was why I waited until the third form 1 was apprved before posting. I specifically waited until the third one to post my results. I also got green cards for each one for two reasons. First, because the law says you have to and second to be sure that both the State and ATF had full knowledge and agreement. The silencer thing was a fluke and was reversed within a week. It has been months since I first had a form 1 approved.
chickrepelent  [Team Member]
8/27/2007 7:38:18 PM

Originally Posted By Dr-Dremel:
That was why I waited until the third form 1 was apprved before posting. I specifically waited until the third one to post my results.


Good thinkin. This news has got me thinking about an 870 all of the sudden.
GarrettJ  [Team Member]
8/27/2007 8:29:25 PM

Originally Posted By chickrepelent:
About a year ago, at least one person in Michigan had the silencer approved before the ATF realized their mistake.

That could have been me, although I heard of someone with an approved Form 4, just after the MG restriction was lifted.

ATF approved a 5320.20 for me to transport some silencers that I already owned to Michigan. I had the time period filled out for a year. I never got a call from ATF telling me they messed up, and nobody ever knocked on my door.

When that year was nearly up I filed another 5320. This one came back denied, with an explanation written in of "Silencers are not allowed in Michigan". Go figure.

Of course, now I'm in another "no-silencer" state. It sucks only being able to visit my toys once or twice a year.

As to the original topic, it's debatable if a domestically produced (no 922r to worry about) rifle/shotgun looses its C&R status if you alter it. According to the Law, any firearm at least 50 years old is a C&R. It doesn't say any unaltered firearm. If you change a stock or a barrel or everything but the receiver, it is still a firearm that is at least 50 years old.
randompeople  [Member]
8/27/2007 8:47:20 PM

Originally Posted By Dr-Dremel:
...and the 870 falls under the 50 year old rule. If a firearm is 50 years old, it qualifies as a C&R firearm.

Bill Poynter


Bill,
Thank you for taking the time to write this up. This is great information. I just wanted to clarify one thing. So in order to do this with an 870 you would need to verify that the 870 used was actually made more than 50 years ago? or could it be any 870? I looked on the C&R list and found one specific 870, the 150th Anniversary model 870SA.
Dr-Dremel  [Member]
8/27/2007 9:06:08 PM
It has to be more than 50 years old or specifically listed in the C&R list. My S&W subgun is not 50 years old but it is listed as C&R due to collectors requesting it to be added to the list. It is not easy to get guns added to the list. I tried to get Some M11s that were made up to look like P90s for the movie Spawn added about 5 years ago and was denied. This was before Mike Cox's opinion.

Your welcome for the information. The only reason I did not post sooner was I did not want to find out the first was a mistake. I have a copy somewhere of a letter written to someone that states that any firearm 50 years old or older qualifies as C&R or something to that effect.
randompeople  [Member]
8/27/2007 9:20:26 PM
Just out of curiousity, I dug out my crusty ol 870 and looked it up here... Remington date codes
As it turns out my barrel code is DE, Sept 1958, about as old as it looks.


Dr-Dremel  [Member]
8/27/2007 10:13:02 PM
Make sure the barrel is the original. I had a friend with one that I compared serial numbers to make sure it was in the right range.
Easy_E  [Team Member]
8/27/2007 10:59:18 PM
Can you use a FFL for this or do you have to be C&R licence ?
cybersniper  [Member]
8/28/2007 1:28:10 AM
Dont see why you couldnt trans the C&R firearm to yourself through a dealer. Having the C&R FFL just makes it easier (nothing better than firearms showing up to your door )
HiramMaxim  [Member]
8/28/2007 10:25:28 AM
Nice Job!!

Dr. Dremel, Bustoff, Kerry Morgan, & Fingas a BIG thanks to all of you guys for what you have done for the People of Michigan over the last few years. You guys deserve The Metal of Honor for returning Our Freedoms through your free thinking, hard work, support, passion and being true conservatives.

Many applause

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!
Ti45  [Member]
8/29/2007 2:28:21 AM
Here is another web page for researching manufacture dates:
Oldguns

(Go down the left hand column to "Manufacture Dates".)
TheOtherDave  [Team Member]
8/31/2007 9:43:47 AM
So, as I understand it correctly-ANY gun older than 50 years is a C&R? It does not have to be specifically listed in the C&R directory?
Small_Arms_Collector  [Member]
9/2/2007 4:01:27 AM

Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
Originally Posted By chickrepelent:
As to the original topic, it's debatable if a domestically produced (no 922r to worry about) rifle/shotgun looses its C&R status if you alter it. According to the Law, any firearm at least 50 years old is a C&R. It doesn't say any unaltered firearm. If you change a stock or a barrel or everything but the receiver, it is still a firearm that is at least 50 years old.


This is true, I brought up the C&R being voided because I was thinking of the Yugoslavian M-59/66. In the case of the M-59/66 it's only C&R eligible because it's specifically listed as a "Curio", so altering that would void it's C&R status, because it would no longer be a true M-59/66. However in the case of things 50 years old, and older, there classified as "relics", and that status is based on it's age, and thus obviously cannot be changed, whether or not it's also listed as a "Curio" is irrelevant, because although modifying them will still void there "curio" status, they will still qualify as "relics", and thus will still be C&R eligible.

As I already eluded to "C&R" is short for "Curios, and Relics" to be considered C&R eligible, the weapon must either be a "curio", a "relic", or both. A "Curio" is any weapon which the BATFE has specifically named as such in the "Curio, and Relics List", based upon some mechanical oddity, historical significance, notoriety, value, or rarity, or some other feature that our BATFE overlords have deemed worthy of adding the weapon to the list, a "Curio" can be any age (The Yugoslavian M-59/66 for example was in production from 1959-1992, most decidedly NOT 50 years ago, not even for the earliest rifle, but there considered a "curio", and are thus C&R eligible). A Relic is ANY weapon that is at least 50 years old, once a weapon reaches 50 years old it AUTOMATICALLY becomes a "relic", and thus becomes C&R eligible, for example todays date is September 2, 2007, so any weapon manufactured on, or before September 2, 1957 is considered a "relic", and is thus C&R eligible. If the exact date of manufacture is not known then the BATFE assumes the date was December 31, of that year, for example if you only knew the weapon was produced sometime in 1957, the BATFE would assume it was manufactured on December 31, 1957, and thus it would not become a Relic until December 31'st, In cases where even the year of production is unknown (Mainly true with 1968, or earlier weapons which do not have serial numbers, as serial numbering was not required until the GCA was passed in 1968, so before that sometime the manufacturers wouldn't bother with serial numbers, particularly with low cost "store brand" weapons.) then the BATFE assumes the date of manufacture was December 31 of the last year the model was produced, or the date the production of the model ended if known, for example if the weapon was in production until 1958 then the BATFE would assume the date of manufacture was December 31, 1958, so it would not become a "relic", and thus C&R eligible untill December 31'st of next year, if the exact last date of production is known though, say October 22, 1958, then the weapon would become a "relic", and thus C&R eligible on October 22, 2008.
Small_Arms_Collector  [Member]
9/2/2007 4:02:17 AM

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
So, as I understand it correctly-ANY gun older than 50 years is a C&R? It does not have to be specifically listed in the C&R directory?


Correct.
Dr-Dremel  [Member]
9/2/2007 9:49:32 AM
This is how I got the form 1s approved. I had to explainall of this to my CLEO and also talked with an attorney friend of mine to make sure this would hold water. I had to find an 870 made before 1957. The 10/22 is listed but since the rifle is still complete and the other barrel can be put back on, it still is a C&R. Remember, MI says that if the Feds say it is OK, it is OK. The law leaves the determination up to ATF and they approved all three of my form 1s.
Dr-Dremel  [Member]
9/22/2007 3:36:25 PM
Looks like a few others are following up with their own form 1s. I expect it will be harder to find certain older firearms in MI.
ShermiesRule  [Member]
9/26/2007 9:11:15 PM
Not to kill the fun here but does this help me in anyway with a Krink or AK47 with folder??
cybersniper  [Member]
9/26/2007 9:24:55 PM
Yes and No. Pre86 AK47s are already legal as tranferable machine guns, big $$.

A SBR semi auto, nope. Theres none on the C&R list and no semi's pre 1957 (50years old) that I have found.

The best C&R SBR/SBS projects Ive come up with so far are M1 Carbine SBR (already in the works), 870 SBS, Marlin or Winchester lever gun SBR, Coach Gun SBS, maybe a bolt action SBR. There is a AR15 on the C&R list but they are hard to find and not cheap. Gonna have to wait another 10 years or so for 50 years from when the first semi AR15s hit the market. The 10/22 that Dr. D is doing will be cool, specially with a supressor. Take a look at the C&R list and let your imagination run amuck.
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