NC G.S. 14-288.8(b) Effective Dec. 1 2011 GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!

What do you think it changes?

This. I'm not sure what this means.

What it changes and means is that the Sheriff has absolutely no reason not to sigh your NFA form under NC Law now. As before it was a little gray area there.

The change to G.S. 14-288.8(b) basically means that if you possess a NFA Title II firearm IAW 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871 (have a Form 1 or 4) then NC now recognize that ownership without the other 4 rationales.

The last part means that it is totally up to the sheriff of that county as to whether to sign your Form 1 or 4 (which has always been the case). He can sign or not sign.


The change to G.S. 14-409(b) also spells out (again) that the sheriff has full discretion (decision-making authority) to sign your Form 4 for a MG (since there aren't going to be a Form 1s). However, you STILL have to have a MG permit issued by the sheriff of your county to have an MG in NC.

People thought this opened up MG ownership. It doesn't.

1. BEST CASE: If I lived in SC and had a MG possessed legally IAW 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871 and I wanted to move to NC, I now didn't have to worry about the other four rationals for NFA firearm ownership, but I still need a MG permit issued by the sheriff of the county I want to move to - who now sees in black and white that it is totally his (or her) decision to issue one (which it always was).

2. So, I decide I want to get an MG.
a. Since I don't own it YET, to get the NFA Branch to approve my Form 4, I have to state my intention is IAW NCGS 14-288.8(b) (1)-(4). (5) doesn't count because I don't own it yet.
b. Will my sheriff sign a Form 4? It is totally up to him. He won't, so I use a trust. LLC or corporation.
c. Before the NFA Branch will approve my Form 4, they want to see a 'a permit to manufacture, use or possess the weapon is issued by the sheriff of the county in which the weapon is located' as required by NCGS 14-409(b) which the sheriff has full discretion as to whether to issue or not. See b above.

So if your sheriff already signs and issues MG permits, this changes nothing. If he doesn't, this changes nothing.

The only thing it changes is if some cop or DA wants to go after you for a SBR, SBS, suppressor or AOW that you have a Form 1 or 4 for, you are okay.

Or if you want to move to NC with a SBR, SBS, suppressor or AOW.

The trust, LLC or corporation route remains the best for non-MG NFA in NC.

How? The sheriff is not only the CLEO of the county, he is also the highest constitutional officer in the county. The only person that ranks him is the governor.

The AG might have told them not to sign, but he's not the boss of them.

They don't sign (those that don't) because they don't want to.

Maybe this will change / open up some sheriffs' minds (not Moose Butler's!) but it just spells out what was always true.

My sheriff calls any NFA items "weapons of mass destruction" and there is "no way in hell" will he sign for wmd's.

And that is now in black and white that he doesn't have to if he doesn't want to. Or that he can if he wants to. Which was always the case.

I have no idea what people thought this would do for NFA ownership in NC other than the change adding (5) to G.S. 14-288.8(b) "protecting" 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871 compliant ownership of non-MG NFA under trusts, LLCs and corporations (which was supposedly under attack somehow according to some people though the NFA Branch didn't think so).

I've had people tell me "this means we can own MGs and don't need the permit from our sheriff" - but that isn't what it says.

"People" often see what they want to see, not what it actually is.

Reading comprehension, especially legalese is best done slowly, carefully and fully sober. Even then it can be a workout.

Is there a ruling to this or just good ole boys interpreting what they want?

"Nothing in this subdivision shall limit the discretion of the sheriff."

Which says the sheriff has unlimited discretion in regards to this law.

Sounds like some people are hearing what they want to hear.

All this does is put it in writing that the sheriff has unlimited discretion on doing the paperwork.

"A ruling" - what ruling? I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean an appeals court or NC Supreme Court decision? That would take a criminal case and an appeal. Or a lawsuit because your sheriff refused to issue you a MG permit - but the new statute revision give him full discretion to issue or NOT issue.

A ruling from the NC Attorney General? There is no ambiguity in the revised statutes.

A ruling from the BATFE? There is no ambiguity in the revised statutes.

The revisions / changes became effective 1 Dec 2011 (21 days ago).

You STILL have to have a MG permit issued by the sheriff of your county to have an MG in NC. The revised statute still requires "a permit to manufacture, use or possess the weapon is issued by the sheriff of the county in which the weapon is located' (NCGS 14-409(b)) which the sheriff has full discretion as to whether to issue or not.

BATFE NFA branch will not approve a Form 4 for a MG transfer to a NC resident without one. They also require one for a 5320.20 to move an MG into NC permanently.

The biggest change is G.S. 14-288.8(b)(5) "Persons who lawfully possess or own a weapon as defined in subsection (c) of this section in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871."

So there is no doubt that my corporation's SBRs and supressors are legitimate under G.S. 14-288.8(b)(5) because I have stamped Form 1s and 4s.

I asked Grassroots NC to spell out the basis of statements made that this opened up MG ownership by asking the people who drafted the legislation what they (supposedly the NC NFA Defense Association) intended it to mean and they asked me to wait until after 1 Dec so that the forces of darkness wouldn't attack. I've heard nothing.

The NC NFA DA says trusts, corporations and LLCs cannot be used for NFA in NC (per their website). The BATFE and NC General Statutes disagree.

I am going to attempt to explain why the law change does indeed eliminate the Sheriff permit for Blue, there are specific exemptions to the law against owning or possessing machinegus in NC. These exceptions are listed after the blue colon and are separated by semicolons. The exemptions in RED specify that to own the machinegun under that particular exemption requires a machinegun permit issued by the Sheriff. The exceptions listed in Green do NOT have the Sheriff permit requirement associated with them. The semicolon separating the exemptions denotes a separate exemption with its own parameters. It appears crystal clear to me that there is no permit requirement for police and military in the first green section, and that there is also no permit requirement for a person who lawfully possesses the machinegun under federal law.



"(b) It shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to manufacture, sell, give away, dispose of, use or possess machine guns, submachine guns, or other like weapons as defined by subsection (a) of this section: Provided, however, that this subsection shall not apply to the following: Banks, merchants, and recognized business establishments for use in their respective places of business, who shall first apply to and receive from the sheriff of the county in which said business is located, a permit to possess the said weapons for the purpose of defending the said business; officers and soldiers of the United States Army, when in discharge of their official duties, officers and soldiers of the militia when called into actual service, officers of the State, or of any county, city or town, charged with the execution of the laws of the State, when acting in the discharge of their official duties; the manufacture, use or possession of such weapons for scientific or experimental purposes when such manufacture, use or possession is lawful under federal laws and the weapon is registered with a federal agency, and when a permit to manufacture, use or possess the weapon is issued by the sheriff of the county in which the weapon is located. located; a person who lawfully possesses or owns a weapon as defined by subsection (a) of this section in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871. Nothing in this subdivision shall limit the discretion of the sheriff in executing the paperwork required by the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for such person to obtain the weapon. Provided, further, that any bona fide resident of this State who now owns a machine gun used in former wars, as a relic or souvenir, may retain and keep same as his or her property without violating the provisions of this section upon his reporting said ownership to the sheriff of the county in which said person lives." SECTION 10. G.S. 14-404(d)



Yes, this law does point out that the state law doesn't limit the discretion of the Sheriff to sign a form 4 or form 1. It does not say the Sheriff still has to issue a permit, it says discretion in eecuting the paperwork required by BATF. Some states have a "shall sign" law (Tennessee for one, and I also believe Alaska has this great law), and I would love to have that included in this section, but you have to improve a step at a time the same way the antis want to take away from us a step at a time. Although the Sheriff is not forced to sign for eligible citizens by the new language, a trust or corp. should now get approved without the Sheriff permit. I hear a lot of talk about how this law didn't change anything, I have tried to explain why I think it changes a lot for NFA in NC.


Joe White

You're trying to say that the addition of "a person who lawfully possesses or owns a weapon as defined by subsection (a) of this section in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871" after " and when a permit to manufacture, use or possess the weapon is issued by the sheriff of the county in which the weapon is located" negates that requirement?

Which means that if I already "lawfully possesses or owns a weapon as defined by subsection (a) of this section in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871" then I'm relieved of the requirement to have a "a permit to manufacture, use or possess the weapon is issued by the sheriff of the county in which the weapon is located ". But if I don't already "lawfully possess" how do I get there without a "a permit to manufacture, use or possess the weapon... issued by the sheriff of the county in which the weapon is located"?

Ah, because I "lawfully possesed... in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871" prior to the need for a permit (as in pre-1986, when IIIRC, N.C.G.S. 14-409(b) was amended to require the sheriff-issued permit) and never got a sheriff-issued permit?

I see now. Your analysis is that this is to protect NC MG owners who own a machine gun with a stamped Form 1 or 4 prior to the permit requirement (or somehow, anyway) and who never got a permit. This ties in with the apparent agenda of the NC NFA DA - who supposedly drafted this section for Grass Roots NC.

So this changes nothing for anyone else as long as the BATFE NFA branch won't approve a Form 4 without the sheriff-issued permit. That's what I've been saying all along.

The NC NFA PA webiste just adds to the confusion. Their president says " So what should all of this mean.. It should mean that anyone that complies with federal NFA law should A: not need a state MG permit and if they comply with federal law they will comply with state law. It also takes Trust and LLC transfers out of illegal-ville and places them into federal compliance.. I do however caution dealers to cover your ass and not do trust x-fers unless the responsible party has a NCCHP. "

That's about as un-clear as it gets. "It should mean"? How do I comply with Federal law if the BATFE wants to see a machine gun permit FIRST? Unless I already have the MG and the stamped Form 1 or 4.

The silence from the people who drafted the legislation and the legislators that sponsored it, as well as Grass Roots NC, as what this particular change is supposed to do is deafening.

The way to "lawfully possesses or owns a weapon as defined by subsection (a) of this section in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871" is the same way you do in any other state that allows machinegun ownership. You fill out the form 4 and send it in, then when it comes back approved you pick up you machinegun. I don't see why this is so hard to understand? If your Sheriff doesn't want to sign even though it is clearly legal to own the firearm, then send the form 4 in under a trust. If you are the trustee then you lawfully possesses or owns a weapon as defined by subsection (a) of this section in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871. You are saying ATF will not approve the transfer without the MG permit. Have you been denied on a trust transfer after 12-1-11?

The reason the added language eliminates the permit is that the permit is not mentioned with the exception, as it is with R&D and Defense of a bank. It is omitted, just as it is in the military and police exception.

OK, after reading the new version of the statute it does sound to me like the permit requirement for MGs has been eliminated for people who lawfully possess per the feds. I guess the sure way to find out is to submit a form 4 without any sort of signature or permit from the Sheriff and see if it flies. Obviously the place to do this would be in a county where the sheriff will sign, just in case the application gets rejected, one can always get a permit from the sheriff. Now, this opens the question, can a chief of police sign for a MG now as they can for suppressors, SBRs, SBSs, AOWs, etc.?

ETA: If anyone wants to spring for the MG, I'm willing to go cheap-say a MAC 10 9mm, to give it a try, I'll be happy to submit the paperwork. I am sure I can get the chief that has jurisdiction where I live to sign, and in the event the NFA Branch turns down the application without a permit from the sheriff, I am confidant I can get said permit from the Sheriff of the county where I live. I'll even spring for the $200 transfer tax.

Again, the people who drafted the legislation say "it should" and GRNC is silent on the matter.

If it actually does, where are the shouts of praise for B 650 removing the sheriff-isued permit requirement?

When Kansas changed their lawsto allow NFA ownership (all types) it was big news.

Here, we have silence.

I've read it over and over again I have had three attorneys read it. We all have the same belief. That IF you have a MG on an approved Form 1 or 4 and somehow didn't have a permit, now you are fine, but that's all.

Frankly, I want to be mistaken. I could give a rat's rip about being "right" about this. I specifically asked GRNC to specifically spell out what the intention of that chnge is and what the legislators who sponsored it think it does. First they asked me to shut up until 1 Dec so that the forces of darkness wouldn't attack, then they've said nothing.

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