Smackdown, is it game on ? edited, Ashleigh got it.

Here's scenario.

You're in familiar environment. Someplace you can image yourself having defenses partially down. Kind a comfort zone area. Like standing in line at Dairy Queen.

Who could possibly have their shield up at DQ ?

When out (edited for spelling) of nowhere. You don't see it coming, with no reason you can imagine, you're Smacked Down with EDC concealed at your ready.

Your ascent is like a bag of potatoes. There you are, all you see is the asshat who dropped you. No gun or weapons visible. Just a sober, straight face, leaving you room to get up and engage.


Reaction ?

Edited, April 8.

Ashleigh, my 21 year old daughter got it. She got the full run down from above scenario. No more, no less. With Beretta in hand she turns, looks and says.

" I want to figure out who hit me first ! "

She's a bad ass with an AR too. First time with one today.

I suck at acronyms ...what's EDC?

I dont think you have a choice but to draw. 1 reaction is slower than action. 2. just because he backed up doesnt mean he's done. 3 getting kicked in the head while trying to get up is all most a for sure way to get knocked out,seen it happen. (maybe thats why he backed up, for a running start)

EDC, every day carry.


I posted question knowing it reaks juvenile. We have had scenarios like this, aired within last few years.

My first reaction is to gage action. No action warrants self constraint. I tend to carry phone in hand so without thought my first thought would be 911. Have had scenario play out that way. Guy ran when realizing my reaction was being played on key pad. He could've smacked phone out of my hand and continued assault.

Where is the line for draw ?

I know there are some FULL TIME Leo types who are kicked back sayin. "Ain't touchin this." I wish you would pipe in and cop bashers refrain from responding in this OP. Don't need your help. Thanks for thinkin of me.


I'm fixing to have this discussion with son in law. Who, in all fairness to McDonald's is short a bag of fries from bein a Happy Meal. Kind of like the dullest tool in the shed, so to speak.

My daughter will be 21 come Tuesday. As promised providing money for CCW class. Lots of range time before
and after. Then if all good, hand gun of choice.

Daughter, she's pretty smart, got a good head. Just no boy sense at all.

Prepping her for CCW will be easy.

After she gets done. I may as well own up, accept some responsibility and try. Try and work through CCW scenarios with him. Above scenario is real potential for him. What to say, how to explain. What's expected and accepted ?

This kind of stuff isn't handled in depth with CCW test requirements.

My intentions are to walk this kid, in depth through every scenario imaginable.

Thanks for your help.

Draw and "stop the threat" to your life...

Sorry folk's to early to draw weapon. Getting hit once with fist does not warrant use of deadly force. 1st think what you would be doing if you did not have weapon, and this occurred. What is going to be your next step if after you pull your weapon because you were hit once and the individual now starts to move in your direction with no weapon of his own.? As the women will tell you you shot your load early.

My thought exactly. Way too early for weapon.

Cell phone time.

Aim for the bag of skittles and fire!

It seems as if I am seeing more of these responses. As if now that you carry a weapon your first thought is to pull it. Its to early to tell but the case in Florida could be something close taking away all the bystanders at the DQ which would be the 2nd reason to avoid shooting a weapon. I don't know the age of the people that are posting the notion of pulling first with no other plan in mind but I might suspect that the group would be younger and have not carried for any lenght of time. I do know that most classes do not spend enough time on the civil liability of pulling and using your weapon.

I wish there was a way of testing CCW competence. This kid wouldn't pass if I was setting the bar. Probably ought to leave it there.

What I've had to do is hold behavior to much higher standards when packing. In old western movies, one or both would disarm and rumble.

Packing actually puts a fella at severe disadvantage in this scenario I feel. Having weapon on you with no aggression beyond one fist hit is liability. You're best to stand down and let someone else handle what normally would be returned with a swing of your own.

Not to change subject posted question in 1911 forum about champion operator would you leave opinion?

I never said shoot,just draw. Why couldn't you draw and then get the phone? Your head bounces of the floor or the wall and your done. You never said he was retreating, Just not advancing. (21 foot pops in my head)
Look at a pro MMA fight, that a controlled event and those guys are still cautious about getting up but they dont want to be on their back either. Except for Royce Gracie.
I'd like to know from a LEO stand point also.

Damn, I don't know.. I'd be more worried about who I was with. (My wife might be beating the guy / looking for tips to hit me more)

That's a tough one, I know I'd be reaching for my firearm, if not drawing it.

So... Unknown person knocks the crap out of me and then stands there to let me get up? Person must be on drugs. Even at 50 I'm gonna be pissed off. I am most likely going to be calling 911 from the ground as I get up. Then make a judgement. Don't come at me again. There are just way to many variables to make a complete call on what to do and their never will be enough info to make the call until it happens.

Sammich,

Your making same point Jr's gonna make. I can see how this is gonna work now. Right down to Pro MMA.

If you draw without 2nd advance......ahhh. wait. Time Out.

Go back, read first post scenario. You're presenting what if's that aren't in that scenario. My boy says Dad, if you're ever in a life threatening situation you'd die for hesitation.

Maybe. This ain't the streets of Baghdad. I worry he'll be incarcerated for not hesitating here in the states. With the other one I'm more worried about his reaction being thoughtless reaction based off perception of threat.

You're premise is to draw and pray you've not provoked yourself into a shoot situation ?

Or

That draw stops reprisals.

Remember, there's plenty witnesses.

that and hoping against hope that the damn cameras everywhere get a good shot of what went down... ugh a DQ would be full of kids.. and teenagers.. glass

OK, sounds fine as a generalized statement on your part. I can't see anything you speak I wouldn't do in same timeline.

Now, go back and read OP. I've listed all variables. If there's something you think was overlooked, you're reading into your scenario and not one created..

Scenario being you've taken hard enough blow to be knocked to floor. Assailant is now standing 3 to 4 feet.


Now, you tell me please. What's next move ?

There's where I'm with you. Beyond that you want to avoid escalating situation while attempting some counter measure.

You're phone in OP scenario is in right hand.

Everybodys eyes are on you, next move is yours.

I understand what your saying there and I used the MMA just to gain reference to the fact that the short of having your back turned trying to stand is really dangerous followed by being on your back.
As to your whats next , well I guess you just lay there and be at the mercy at the attacker until the cops show up or some one else gets involved. Because your guns no longer an option with him 3-4 feet from you and your on your back ,gun in your holster.
3-4 feet is not room to get up and engage,thats on top of you. Your better off on your back at this point.

I'd dial, change the phone to the left hand and get ready to draw if needed.

At this point, I'd be a bit concerned for my wife. If I'm carrying, she is too. I'd hope she'd take her que from me and not draw right away but get our son to safety or at elast to a better position if the agressor is alone.

3-4 feet tip of my toes to the bottom of your feet,your hand on your gun I'd get to you first.

Ok. Since you can't help but let your dog run. Here's what happens.

I fall. Reeling from pain, regain some sense. Hit 911 and just as operator says. 911, what's you're emergency ? Asshat realizes I'm not who he thought I was. I'm not his neighbor Bill, who by his wife's admission has been boinking her everyday while he's away eating ice cream.

Had you pulled. Heartbroke likely would not have seen your face, just the gun you drew.




Don't drop the soap while in pen. Thanks for playin.

So your saying the winning answer is lay there and call the cops. ok fine, But you should of included the 3-4 ft at the beginning

YMMV.

As I stated, if I am carrying and somewhere like DQ, odds are very very good that I am not alone. Otherwise I am in the drive-thru. I don't have my CCW yet but my wife and I are going to both have ours by September. I can't think of a time that only one of us would be armed if we're going out armed which would be as often as we wear seat belts in cars: every single time.

My first instinct is to decelerate the situation if at all possible. I do not expect that we'd be able to rapidly replace any carry guns that we would have, so they would stay away until there was zero doubt that they were needed. IF a guy is unarmed/fists only and I have something in my hand, I am as well armed as he is. I'd bash with the phone if needed. He produces a weapon and then I'd draw. If he is not alone, I have my wife and her gun as well.

Honestly, I'm a pretty big fellow so if I went down it would take a little while for me to recover.

Nope, that's not what I'm sayin. I'm listening, hoping for professional input.

You played an important role in OP and thank you for input.

Heartbroke is dead for having rushed for a gun he thought Bill had drawn.

Judge gave you 15 instead of 20 since it was all just a misunderstanding.

Your right I went with the what he "could" do line, guess that comes from actually getting kicked in the head when trying to get up.

Thanks for the thoughts

Judge the scenario from the ground. I'm not pulling a weapon on somebody that punched me once

Some people are some trigger happy pansies that think a stroke in jaw is an immediate threat to your life. If they go in for the stomping, draw and fire. If they don't (maybe they realized you were not the intended target), let the cops handle it.

To tell you the truth, I'd rather end up dead than incarcerated. I could handle myself just fine before I ever carried a gun, and am still having a hard time envisioning more than a handful of scenarios that I couldn't handle without one.

It's purpose is a last line of defense, not first.

If I just took a single random punch from a stranger, it has not yet turned into a gunfight.

At two to three foot distance between you and attacker your movement to your EDC could cause him to rush you again.If he rushes you while you are pulling your gun then you have the problem of trying to keep your gun out of his hands. It has been proven that a person can cover 21 feet and be on you in less than 2 to 3 seconds. Phone in hand hitting 911 and doing the back slide to gain more distance. If he rushes you while on floor then you have to engage him in a physical manner.In the average fight time between two average persons a person with expend 80% of their energy and start to tire in less than 30 seconds. I have trained and been a trainer in forms of self defence and I believe I can hold my own in a grappling situation. If you can gain distance by sliding across floor on back then you may have room to pull your EDC and defuse the situation or end it if it comes to that.

Of course there are many varibles to this situation. How packed is the room? Do you have room to manuver on the floor to gain distance? Are you alone, is he alone? It is easy to sit back and be an arm chair quarterback and look at the situation. What you do will depend on your situation and your training in the past.

Solution is to never be caught in Condition White, even at the DQ. IMO, unarmed but in Yellow is safer than armed and in White.

IMO, as a generality, if an urban youth is playing the "knockout game" and has decided to target me, given the number of deaths that have occurred from this game, I would indeed consider it an attempt on my life. I certainly hope that a jury of reasonable people would feel the same.

Now, if I am caught completely by surprise in Condition White, and am hit in the head hard enough to knock me down and daze me, I would indeed consider that an immediate threat on my life. And if I had my wits about me as I lay on the ground, and had both a phone and a pistol at my disposal, the phone would not be the first item for which I reach.

If my wits were sufficient enough to be aware of the situation, I would draw the pistol as an immediate defense to the unprovoked attack. If the attacker ran off as soon as they had struck me, then as I ascertained the remaining people in the immediate area to no longer be a threat to me, the pistol would get re-holstered and 911 would be called. I would nurse my wounds, get a Peanut Buster Parfait and wait for the Police to arrive, etc, etc.

If however, as I am laying there on the ground stunned, there is someone still standing over me and threatening, or worse, continuing the attack, I would doubly consider that an attack on my life and if able I would shoot to stop the threat. Yes, even if it is "just" a 140# teenager compared to my 6'1, 300# self. Boot to the head, etc, etc. I am on the ground and in a completely defensive position. I am unable to retreat and the other party was not only the initiator of the attack, but is continuing to attack. Again, I would certainly hope that a jury of reasonable people would also consider that a serious threat to my life.

All of this would of course take place in a matter of about 3-4 seconds, so, second guessing yourself may be a deadly decision.

But believe it or not, when it comes to just myself I am generally a "run away to fight another day" kind of guy. I have taken a lot of hits and bruises over the years and am still here. If however I am with someone and therefore also responsible for their safety, the fight or flight decision has already been made for me.

Now, just for a giggle and to connect to another currently active thread, reevaluate this scenario but with your EDC piece in Condition 3 and compare your results.

That is my opinion on the matter.

If he smacked me in the back of the head hard enough to knock me down, I would consider that a serious attempt to do bodily harm to me so unless he's apologizing like a MOFO as soon as he realizes his mistake, and I would draw ASAP. I sure as hell wouldn't be reaching for a cell phone.

This. A single punch can (though is unlikely to) kill. If he's not run away or apologized by the time I get my wits back, then he's not some innocent heartbroken cuckold who cold cocked the wrong guy.

On my back is a very easy place to become further disabled. And 3-4 feet is too close to have time to react when he initiates his next blow. If you wait to draw until he hits you again, you may not draw at all. If phone is in hand or accessible to weak hand, dial 911 while grimacing and moving your hand to the spot on your back where it hurts. At least then your hand will be on gun and witnesses will report you as injured.

At this point, nobody has seen your CCW but draw should be quick. If you ate not interrupted while calling 911, great, you can wait for cops to show up and take over. If your assailant tries to stop you from calling 911, shoot him dead.

Legal self-defense doesn't include continuing a conflict when the other party attempts to disengage. However, in this situation, you are being assaulted, you were struck but the assault is a continuing event. Yes, your assailant is unarmed, but now that you are both injured and in a very disadvantageous and vulnerable position, there is definitely a disparity of force.

Calling 911 puts you firmly in the "victim" box, both in the minds of witnesses and on incident reports. It also gives you a chance to evaluate how your assailant reacts to your injury and call for official intervention. But to not reach for and prepare to draw your CCW would be reckless, as you are the victim of a continuing assault, not the victim of a recent and possibly subsequent assault.

A serious blow to the head has been known to kill healthy people. So, if the blow is hard enough to drop me like a sack of potatoes. Then the game is on. Now I didn't spend like almost 200 dollars to get a permit. To, just pull out my cellphone and pray that the SOB don't hit me again (interject the guys voice saying dont tase me bro, to say dont hit me no mo bro). I agree with the draw and aim and pray that the SOB does not close and kick me in the head or nuts, or anywhere else to be truthful. Ifn the assh*le is stupid enough to try to hit me again, well it will be a good shoot. I would imagine that everyone will clear an alley between you and SOB and behind him too. All of you wimps that say use the cellphone first should just give up your CCW permits. Thats not what it was intended for, to carry a cellphone concealed.

And I am not giving a cyber armchair response. You carry to prevent harm to yourself and anyone you are willing to stick your neck out for. And yes, you have witnesses that you where attacked. You drew and told perp to either leave or get down and for you to ask someone to call the cops. If after you drew and yelled freeze, the perp still attacks and you shot, you shot in defense..

For the daughter and son-in-law, buy the video "Missouri Concealed Carry and Self-Defense Law" by Kevin Jamison to help with the what if's and what is legal or not..

As for your scenario my determining factor to draw or not is the question, Am I in fear of my life? If the aggressor is no longer threatening me, then I am not in fear of my life. The moment he moves toward me is the moment I draw and stop the threat. Split second decisions made in split second timing.

You do not draw unless you plan to use the gun immediately due to an eminent threat.

Drawing your gun to scare the person away could get you arrested. Now in the process of drawing with the intent to use the gun to stop the threat, the threat ceases to be a threat and vacates the scene, then re-holster and call 911.

Use of lethal force in self-defense should be your last resort.

Can you roll away after you have been knocked down, putting distance between you and the threat. Can you seek cover. Retreat, if safely accomplished is always better then engaging a person with a gun.

Really 1911?

I dont care at this point if it is a love sick hubby who just cold cocked me thinking I was the guy boinking his wife. What he has just done could become lethal for me. And in his fit of rage might still not realize that I am not bill (we could still look so much alike to this guy that he does not realize I am not bill. This is not how one is supposed to react in a civilized world. You cant go and attack someone. But you sure can defend yourself. Next thing I will be hearing is that there are of you who think the death sentence is not civilized.

Wow, I just cant believe in some of the crying liberal response I am seeing here. Better to have a gun in your hand and not need it, than have a cellphone calling police just before the lights go out for good.

I don't know the answer to this but my experience at one I my jobs says you do not need to dial 911. Everyone in the store will be on the phone before you can get up. That's just wasting your time. The DQ will have cameras so you'll not need to tell your side of the story either until after its over.

Max- Paul,


I don't see "any crying liberal" responses in OP or reasons to pick up your marbles because you don't like how game is played.

Truth told, you won't know what your response will be in a threat or be able to guess what your first thoughts might be after threatened.

I can tell you what mine was in a situation where it seemed I was in danger " of being harmed."

The physical threat was there, the one way belly shove match was on. I'd been told I was going to get hurt but how.


My phone was in hand and I was texting a conversation with son who was in another country. We were texting a conversation that had nothing to do with my being shoved. Yes, all this was going on and I had presence of mind to seem unaffected by threat.

My first thought. O'Fuck. I'm gonna loose my CCW right here, right now.

My second thought was I'd never be able to get to gun before pile drives like a fence post.

Kinda funny how my first thought was CCW status without thought to harm or life ?

You just can't second guess your self or the situation was one lesson.

Second was change in carry habit.

I thought Eric's reply was right on; my thoughts immediately went to the "knockout game" as well (which doesn't always end with just one punch, it can involve multiple attackers rushing in at unexpected intervals). I'll only disagree with one point and that's the last sentence of the section that I quoted. I wouldn't hang much on the hope of a jury of reasonable people agreeing that deadly force was justified in that situation. I wouldn't hang much on the hope of even getting a jury of reasonable people.

My point is that my motivation to use or not use deadly force can't be based on my fear of future prosecution or my hope of future acquittal, it has to be based on my present fear for my life. That makes the decision to use or not use deadly force a very personal one. What may cause my wife to fear for her life may not cause me to fear for my life. What may cause me to fear for my life may not cause some of you to fear for your lives.

I think hypotheticals like this are helpful because they help us work through the decision making process ahead of time so that hopefully we don't hesitate to act (or not act) if the situation ever presents it's self.

No offense OP, but there's a lot of information missing here, like:

How much bigger is this guy than me?

How old does he look? Just a kid? Gangster look?

( I could ask a ton of questions about what I would be seeing about the assailant that wasn't given in the OP. )

Where are the other people situated? Close in or spread out a bit?

Am I there alone? With my kids only? With my wife and kids? With friends?

Am I supposed to assume that this guy is alone or do I need to also be looking for mutliple assailants?

With that said.... here goes....

There are plenty of people there for me to be reasonably sure SOMEONE will dial 911 for me if I yell out that this guy just assalted me and I need someone to dial 911 !!!
(Heck, maybe a third party will step in to lend a hand physically... I don't know. I'm pretty sure that I would be that third party guy ready and willing.)

As that's happening, I'm going to do my best to get my feet between he and my head... legs up and in the ready position.

Since I carry mostly with the smartcarry holster in the 12:00 position, I'm gonna have my hands close to that area and ready for the aparent bad guy to make the next move.
(depending on the unknown variables, I may be forced to be ready to grapple.)

Thanks for responses fellas. Jason called after seeing post. After some discussion he got where he'd been reading into OP, forming conclusions. Defending most your responses.

There's only one response that would be correct to stated scenario. Jason made same mistake as most who posted.

I got more than needed for future discussion with meat head. Pretty sure who I'm going to for both kids CCW. Both kids should be well ahead of their class mates, even meat head.

There's too many variables to the outcome of scenario to form conclusions. The decision to make, dazed on floor.

Assess threat, then respond with appropriate logic..


In Eric's scenario, urban youths playing the game of smack down. That's a game changer, agreed. I would like to think my guard would be full shield before attack could take place.

Still, that wasn't OP scenario. Reading scenario can be no different than reading text. Did you read correctly ? Can you read into scenario and over react ?

Honestly I don't know what force would have been appropriate to RESPOND WITH. I'm still lost there. The phone in right hand served me well as a distraction. As far as calling 911 ? O'yea, I'd do that for sure, just so an operator could hear what was going down.


Here's another scenario. You've got a cattle pot to load. There's two pens of bulls weighing an average of 1650 lbs each. Each pen has 7 bulls for total of 14 which fits perfectly. There's a gate in pot to keep both groups seperate. The reason bulls are seperate is simple. To keep from killing one another and it happens. You loose one in transit or cause you shot it, you bought one.

The biggest, meanest MF'er turns to advance halfway into trailer. You're scared shitless. You know that hot shot your holding in left hand is useless. Bull stands there, you make a move that he reads as aggression it's game on. ( I know if it comes right down to him or me, he's gonna get one between the eyes.) You're standing beside a gate that's open and trying to get to next gate, 7 feet ahead. Bulls standing right square in gates path. There's 12 feet from bull to you. Bull makes a step towards you, head down breathing hard. What's your next move ?

Answer. Stand still, don't move an inch. The gate you're beside is narrow and swings fast. One move from you, bull will read as offense. Stand still, read him like he's reading you. He turns and gate can be swung behind him. Happens on every load, sometimes it may take a time or two to stare his bluff. Next group ready to load and kept seperate.

Now that's pretty much stupid to compare to life and death, do you react or not comparison of bad guy or bad guy scenario. Except when it ends bad for me with bulls its life or death. If I pulled a trigger everytime I thought there was a life threat I'd be outta the cattle hauling business.

Gun is always last option and YES. There's been a time or two when gun has been drawn on animals.

Still room for more discussion and debate.

Where have you been ? A little late to the party.

There's nothing missing. Everything is in original post as you have been able to take in while salivating a hot fudge double brownie delight poured over a banana split.

It is what it is so don't try and mentally masturbate situation past as it reads.

This OP, no offense given was written with you in mind Flatulence.

Youth Hunts. Family Bike rides...

I'm flattered !!! Did I fail fall into your trap Masta?

No, no trap. It was written to stay out of your trap.

The info given in the original scenario was that I was caught unaware and dropped like a sack of 'taters, with the assailant still standing over me. IMO that is still an IMMEDIATE threat to my life as the assailant has already demonstrated a desire to do me harm. This was not a "belly bumping" incident of bravado. This was an unprovoked attack! I've seen countless stories on the news about the "knockout game". I know full well that death is a common outcome for the victim of such games. I want very much to continue living.

Your cattle story is COMPLETELY different. Yes there are life & death consequences to your cattle loading decisions. But legally you'd only be facing a civil property loss charge. Choose wrong and you simply pay the man for the bull and eat steak for a year. There is expected and acceptable (to the guys who do it) danger in loading cattle. There should be no expected or acceptable level of danger in the DQ.

In the end it's obviously up the the individual on the ground. The Police will only arrive to make the arrest and file the report after the fact.

I am gonna agree with Eric. MY life to me is more important than the aggressor's. If a person cold cocks you from behind with no provocation and continues to loom over you your first though should be that they mean you bodily harm. In regards to the law it isnt your responsibility to determine the aggressor's motivation. At the stated decision point in the OP if you draw and he attacks ending in his death that is a good shoot regardless of what the outcome would have been had you drawn your phone instead. Decisions are being made by both parties and the fault would be his. The outcome would be tragic but not illegal as far as the OP would be concerned.

After all the what if's the only chargable is an assualt 3rd on the aggressor. Pulling your weapon at DQ which would have as many children if not more than adults. Police arrive statements taken he is arrested for the third degree assault and if you pulled your weapon you could also be charged with flourishing a weapon. If you all keep trying to add the whatif's you can go further at race etc, etc. And before you know it Rev Al could be in Missouri. But the facts on the table if nothing is done past the first punch it is a simple assualt nothing more nothing less. Unless you shoot a jury would never hear the case just the states attorney and the judge. Depending on bad guys record if any he pay's a fine and maybe probation. You could be looking at the same. Not a lawyer but 25 plus years in the badge game. Different parts of the state could have different results just like DUI's and tickets.

If the fool has given me enough time to regain senses and realize he has no weapon, i will do my best to get up and throw the moron a beating of a life time and stuff that DQ cone right up his back side. I'm sorry, but if you punch me and i'm not out, expect to get socked back

Ok,

Here's another DQ scenario. This one happened for real.

I'm standing in line at DQ at 84 mm on I-70. I'm carrying cocked and locked, strong side with G19, sob. Just finished a good day at Bucksnort.

I'm thinkin about a chocolate blizzard, debating Reeses or Oreo. Have just concluded I'm asking for both in large..


Next thing I feel is something poking me in kidney, like gun muzzle.

Before I can register what's happening or react.

All happens in a second.

I hear.

Your buddy messing with you?

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