Anoka County Deputy makes his own laws as he goes?? CCW Problem! Read for a laugh!

This is a good one! I hope there is a MN Lawyer on here who reads this stuff and would like to contact me.

Background on me: I'm a Class III Dealer and deal mostly with LE/Military. I have been in the business a long time. I'm also approved by the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, as an instructor for teach and certifying people for their MN Permits to carry.

Now to the fun stuff.

I was digging thru my wallet and trying to thin it out when I came upon my concealed carry permit. Ok, my bad.... as an instructor, I should know better but.... it was expired!! I was surprised but figured ok... I'll just apply and it will get approved quickly, not a huge deal right? WRONG.

Dropped off the application yesterday.... Anoka County Deputy *** *** was not in, he only works Tuesdays (according to his voice mail) so I give my card to the secretary and ask her to mention to him that my old permit expired and I need this kinda rushed along.... I need to carry. So, I get the call today, figured (when I saw the phone number) wow... he sure did that quick for me! I answer and he says, "Mr. _______, we have a problem with your permit." I say, "what"? He says "I won't allow you to certify yourself, it's unethical. You need to take a class to prove to someone else that you are safe"! LOL.... "WTF, is this a joke"? I say. "I'm serious, I will not give you a permit to carry unless you have another instructor at least sign off". So i say.... "you're telling me, to ask another instructor to just lie, sign off, saying I've done his class?" He says, "just get an instructor to sign off if you want a permit." Click,

So... I call back and of course he wont answer.. it goes to VM.... I left the message: "*** ***, this is __________ calling back about your phone call saying you'll refuse my permit. I need that in writing and state the reason as well. You can NOT make up your own rules on who's certificates you will or won't accept."

So.... is this guy retarded or what??

I can understand where he is coming from. As a notary public you can't notarize your own documents. You know as well as I do that "instruction" does not certify skill, competence or mindset to carry a firearm. Just jump through his hoops and get your permit.

Or... make him follow the written law of our great State?

It clearly says the Sheriff MUST accept.......... why pay $150 to take a class that I teach?? If somebody tells you to bend over, I bet you just automatically do it, yeah??



Subd. 2a.Training in the safe use of a pistol.
(a) An applicant must present evidence that the applicant received training in the safe use of a pistol within one year of the date of an original or renewal application. Training may be demonstrated by:
(1) employment as a peace officer in the state of Minnesota within the past year; or
(2) completion of a firearms safety or training course providing basic training in the safe use of a pistol and conducted by a certified instructor.
(b) Basic training must include:
(1) instruction in the fundamentals of pistol use;
(2) successful completion of an actual shooting qualification exercise; and
(3) instruction in the fundamental legal aspects of pistol possession, carry, and use, including self-defense and the restrictions on the use of deadly force.
(c) The certified instructor must issue a certificate to a person who has completed a firearms safety or training course described in paragraph (b). The certificate must be signed by the instructor and attest that the person attended and completed the course.
(d) A person qualifies as a certified instructor if the person is certified as a firearms instructor within the past five years by an organization or government entity that has been approved by the Department of Public Safety in accordance with the department's standards.
(e) A sheriff must accept the training described in this subdivision as meeting the requirement in subdivision 2, paragraph (b), for training in the safe use of a pistol. A sheriff may also accept other satisfactory evidence of training in the safe use of a pistol.

I do not know of a single instructor who has not certified himself! Not one.

Sure, there are some who work as a team..... Joe signs Jim's paper and Jim signs Joe's...... every trainer I know has done it himself and mine was even accepted by this guy in the past. I think he was high today or something.

MN laws are clear. He needs to take a 1st grade reading class.

(c) isnt stating that being a certified instructor is proof of "training in the safe use of a pistol"
law says you need to receive (as a student) firearms safty training that is conducted by a certified instructor.
technicly, you cant be a student in a course at the same time you are teaching it (because you cannot actualy RECEIVE any training)

You forgot to read further down i guess:

Training may be demonstrated by:
(2) completion of a firearms safety or training course providing basic training in the safe use of a pistol and conducted by a certified instructor.


d) A person qualifies as a certified instructor if the person is certified as a firearms instructor within the past five years by an organization or government entity that has been approved by the Department of Public Safety in accordance with the department's standards.

If one is approved by the BCA, it means youve shown them your training certification. As above... instructors need to be trained every five years, and of course since I am certified, i have been.

You need to get some basic reading tutoring. Nowhere does the MN law state that instructors need further instruction that that they took and qualified with, to become an instructor.

Hope that clears it up for you.

basic reading is very diff then understanding legalese...
to get a permit to carry a pistol you need to fulfill
624.714
Subd.2a.
(a) An applicant must present evidence that the applicant received training in the safe use of a pistol within one year of the date of an original or renewal application. Training may be demonstrated by:

meeting that requirement is only accomplished one of two ways:

(1) employment as a peace officer in the state of Minnesota within the past year; or
(2) completion of a firearms safety or training course providing basic training in the safe use of a pistol and conducted by a certified instructor.



getting your certification as an instructor would only satisfy (2) IF if was completed in the last 12 months before submitting your application for your permit to carry.
I.E. requirement to CARRY a pistol in public is greater then requirement to TRAIN people in safe use of a pistol.
hope that clears it up for you.

I take a new instructors course each year. I think I'm covered.

did you provide the certificate of the most recent course (within 12 months) to the sheriff? from the account of your converstation, it sounds like you just signed off on yourself as taking your own class.
giving them a copy of the certificate from the last class you took would fulfill the requierment, assuming the class meets
624.714 Subd. 2a.
(b) Basic training must include:

(1) instruction in the fundamentals of pistol use;

(2) successful completion of an actual shooting qualification exercise; and

(3) instruction in the fundamental legal aspects of pistol possession, carry, and use, including self-defense and the restrictions on the use of deadly force.

NO, that would not meet the requirement. The NRA is not a legally authorized/approved company to teach the course here, so I made the certificate from MY company, which IS an approved business.

well, then you have not taken a qualified class as a student, and you have not fulfilled the requirements to receive a permit
to carry as laied out in MN law.

may be stupid, but thats the way it is writen.

It sucks, but it is the letter of the law... Steele County Sheriff took the same stance with me.

Seriously? Lon told me I'm right! Hmmmmmm

Lon wasn't Sheriff then, Ringhofer was... I have since moved to Dakota county.

I was also told there was no way they could verify that I took the class if I was the instructor Also that they didnt have anyway to verify that I was an actual instructor... to which I replied, "How do you verify other certificates are signed by certified instructors?" I got a blank stare in return. It was then that I realized they do not verify that the certificate come from a certified instructor, how could they? There is no database of instructors, only companies certified to train instructors. I always wondered why they made that change to the new law?

BUT.... the BCA has a copy of each businesses official certificates. My guess is, they must send them out to each County or at least have them so SO's can look at them to see if they match the cert given by the applicants. When I changed my cert, I had to send them a copy (email PDF) of the new one before issueing it in my class.

I hate to use post 556 for this but...

BCA only has my certificate for certifying instructors, not for permit to carry students. I really doubt they check, it's sad that we have to show training for exercising a right. I would rather have people get "certified" to have children

I hear ya and yes, sorry you wasted such a good number, 556.. for this!

Indeed it is.

Edited to make me look less moronic.

My sig line.

I can see his point.

I thought you were actually getting denied or that it was gonna take months.

Lets do away with the whole permit to carry and just allow everyone to carry. Problem solved.

Funny how so many can "see his point". The Special Agent in Charge of this division of the State of MN had this to say about it when asked back in 2008.. I wish he had sent a memo to all SO's!.

"> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:18:50 -0500
> From: JLuther@mail1.dps.state.mn.us
> To: REMOVED

> Erik,>

> There is no provision in the statute that approves or denies your ability to certify yourself. As long as you are an approved business organization and certified to teach by your organization, you can certify yourself.

.Jeff Luther
> Special Agent in Charge
> Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension
> 1430 Maryland Avenue East
> St. Paul, Minnesota 55106
> Telephone: (651) 793-1076"

Don't mean to be a dick, but my reading skills are fair and I didn't see any yes or no, so.... I had to agree with the Spec. Agent in Charge!

Case closed.

Looks like you win today!

Now next time, don't let your permit expire...

In any case, I need to be certified every 5 years. But yeah, it sucks that I'm permitless as we speak! Ouch.... embarassing.

I hear you. I take formal training classes every year and put 200-300 rounds down range weekly as well. Certification is a piece of paper...

That is great!

I just came up with a new brilliant concept.

I'm going to instruct others and once they are qualified, I will then certify them as instructors... and here is the cool part, THEN, once i have certified them to be instructors, I can hire them, to teach me! LOL

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