AR15.Com Archives
 First Aid Training - Tactical or Otherwise
Cytic  [Team Member]
11/9/2011 5:30:58 AM
Any recommendations for first aid training?

I have done the Red Cross CPR class but want to bump it up with more basic first aid training and or tactical first aid, gunshot wound, trauma etc.

Any courses that can be recommended near NOVA?
ffemt11b  [Team Member]
11/9/2011 6:30:17 AM
You can always go get your EMT-B.

Hey join your local Fire Dept/Rescue Squad and they'll even pay for it, and let you actually practice your new skill.
Cytic  [Team Member]
11/9/2011 7:16:37 AM
I hadn't thought about the EMT-B, thats a good idea. I will do some research on that.

I was originally thinking of something less expensive and less time consuming?

I am also kind of killing time waiting for something to pan out in several police applications. So I guess I am interested in any kind of training that would be useful for someone just beginning a LEO career.
DrJWelch  [Team Member]
11/9/2011 7:45:14 AM
Originally Posted By Cytic:
I hadn't thought about the EMT-B, thats a good idea. I will do some research on that.

I was originally thinking of something less expensive and less time consuming?

I am also kind of killing time waiting for something to pan out in several police applications. So I guess I am interested in any kind of training that would be useful for someone just beginning a LEO career.


If you are free next Sat and want to drive to GA you can come to a tacmed course I am teaching near ATL. I plan on giving some courses for the VAHTF, but I have just been busy, it takes a lot of planning.

If we did a course how long would people want it to be- Is a whole day too long?
When- during the week or during the weekend, what would bring in the most people?
I focus mostly on GSW trauma when teaching, that usually takes a WEEK. I have managed to make a small one day course but it is really pushing the limits.








GlockSergeant  [Member]
11/9/2011 8:38:21 AM
No brainer here - http://www.ccjatraining.com/
Tanker06  [Team Member]
11/9/2011 9:18:04 AM
Originally Posted By Cytic:
So I guess I am interested in any kind of training that would be useful for someone just beginning a LEO career.

If you have the time, I'd second the recommendation for the EMT-B training.

It'll take abt three months, but if you volunteer at your local FD, the county
will pay for it, all you have to do is show up, take the classes and pass
the test.

Plus it'll come in handy down the road when you get into the LE job-line.
delta0313  [Member]
11/9/2011 11:06:03 AM
I'd be in for a weekend or week day class that deals with GSWs. Just let us know when! Thanks for being willing to share your skills with the HTF!
spence  [Member]
11/9/2011 12:35:53 PM
I'll third or fourth the EMT-B recommendation. In central Virginia I worry more about a heart attack, heat exhaustion/stroke or a diabetic issue than a GSW (especially with our summers!).

If you have the time & $$ CCJA offers an accelerated EMT-B program (15 days). If you want a rock solid acccelerated EMT-B program (30 days) & have the time/$$ I recommend SOLO in New Hampshire. (I'm biased as I did mine there) Or like others said, do it locally. It's cheaper that way and you will make great contacts.

Another consideration is a good WFR (Wilderness First Responder) program taught by SOLO,WMI or WMA. It will give you some great first aid skills. Even a 2 day weekend Wilderness First Aid course will give you a lot of bang for the time investmentment.

Having taken a GSW specific class, it was fun and dwelt on issues other than patient care. People with no experience attended and learned a lot. That said, much like shooting, solid first aid fundamentals will help you solve first aid problems. And again much like shooting , med skills are perishable and should be constantly trained and reinforced.

Any good training is better than no training, just be sure to vet your instructors when it comes to GSW or tactical medicine courses. Do your research, check for current references and ask for instructor resumes. Needle decompression is not the answer for most trauma.

Doc Welch, I'd be interested & may be able to help host, etc. in the Richmond area.
Cytic  [Team Member]
11/9/2011 1:15:22 PM
I am up for this. Tuesday/Wednesday works best for me for a one day class.

I will be looking into the EMT-B training when I have a little more time later tonight.
W_E_G  [Team Member]
11/9/2011 2:17:21 PM
I worked a couple years as a volunteer EMT-B with a county agency in northern VA.

At least 95% of the calls I ran were "sick" calls.
That is, the patient was sick.

If you think real volunteer EMT-B work is going to be much daring-do rescue, you will be sorely mistaken.
The vast majority of your time will be sitting around, waiting for the next sick call.

Its honorable work.
But not much excitement for the EMT-B.

The guys doing the exciting stuff are usually veteran paramedic firefighters (note all three elements) who are (fourth element) assigned to ride a RESCUE engine.
Those guys are the real deal.

You should learn some basic skills.
Buy a blood pressure cuff, and learn how to use it.
You don't have to go to a school to do that.

Learn about what basic medicines can do.
Understand how Benadryl, Ephedrine, aspirin, and over-the-counter analgesics work.
Learn what prescription medicines you are likely to encounter in the suburban home.

Learn what basic questions to ask of any patient.

Learn CPR, but realize that 98% of the people who NEED CPR, are going to die anyway.
Learn what an AED is, and be ready to use one.
Did you know that almost all public buildings now have an AED on premises?
You REALLY CAN save somebody's life, if you get the AED on them at the right time.

Its pretty damn unlikely that you are going to run into a situation where you need to treat liife-threatening hemmorhaging, or have to improvise a traction-splint from materials on hand.

It is much more likely that you will encounter somebody having an acute food allergy incident, or somebody who has an altered mental status due to ingestion (or failure to ingest) some sort of drug.

It will be useless to the person with casual, but sincere interest, to spend time learning radio protocols, report-writing (especially unique, computer-based systems) NIMS bullshit (National Incident Management Systems), etc. You will have to learn all that in an EMT-B course. If you learn it through a fire department, you will probably have to learn all sorts of administrative fire-department specific material.

The best use of your time would be to buy an EMT-B training manual, and spend 30 hours studying it.
No wasted time there.

The "Brady" manual is what we used when I got certified as an EMT-B.
I can highly recommend it.
Brady manual at Amazon

The reality of EMT-B is that you better damn-well hope the paramedics get there really fast if the patient has an acute life-threatening condition.
As EMT-B, you won't have the drugs, heart equipment, or IV equipment to save most people who are about to die.
Your best tool will be 911.

If you really want to join a fire department, you should get to know some people who already work there.
If you really hit it off with them, then maybe the fire department is for you.
If not, then learn a few basics on your own time, and call it good.
DrJWelch  [Team Member]
11/9/2011 2:40:28 PM
Originally Posted By Cytic:
I am up for this. Tuesday/Wednesday works best for me for a one day class.

I will be looking into the EMT-B training when I have a little more time later tonight.


We could arrange a weekday class. It would require a minimum number of students and a deposit for each seat.
The deposit would stay low, it is intended to keep people "invested" in their spot in the training.
We would also need a facility near Richmond to host it.

As a medical director for an EMT to up to paramedic school, let me emphasis what others have already stated, GSW training (a narrow scope of tactical medicine) is NOT like most first aid, BLS or most well known "ABC's" training. It is a different animal intended to address a specific narrow spectrum of care. These are not the most common things to kill people HERE. I would encourage you to look into BLS, ACLS if you want to be ready for the most common threats to civilians in the U.S.

However, I also feel ANYONE dealing with firearms on a regular basis puts them-self at an increased risk and should know exactly what they need to do if someone gets hit. Just my personal feeling.

ETA: Email me if this is something you want to arrange.


ffemt11b  [Team Member]
11/9/2011 3:00:18 PM
If your located near Prince William County I know a couple VFDs that could use your help.
pevrs114  [Member]
11/9/2011 6:13:45 PM
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Originally Posted By Cytic:
I am up for this. Tuesday/Wednesday works best for me for a one day class.

I will be looking into the EMT-B training when I have a little more time later tonight.


We could arrange a weekday class. It would require a minimum number of students and a deposit for each seat.
The deposit would stay low, it is intended to keep people "invested" in their spot in the training.
We would also need a facility near Richmond to host it.

As a medical director for an EMT to up to paramedic school, let me emphasis what others have already stated, GSW training (a narrow scope of tactical medicine) is NOT like most first aid, BLS or most well known "ABC's" training. It is a different animal intended to address a specific narrow spectrum of care. These are not the most common things to kill people HERE. I would encourage you to look into BLS, ACLS if you want to be ready for the most common threats to civilians in the U.S.

However, I also feel ANYONE dealing with firearms on a regular basis puts them-self at an increased risk and should know exactly what they need to do if someone gets hit. Just my personal feeling.

ETA: Email me if this is something you want to arrange.





Email sent.
Argus  [Member]
11/9/2011 9:47:58 PM
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Originally Posted By Cytic:
I am up for this. Tuesday/Wednesday works best for me for a one day class.

I will be looking into the EMT-B training when I have a little more time later tonight.


We could arrange a weekday class. It would require a minimum number of students and a deposit for each seat.
The deposit would stay low, it is intended to keep people "invested" in their spot in the training.
We would also need a facility near Richmond to host it.

As a medical director for an EMT to up to paramedic school, let me emphasis what others have already stated, GSW training (a narrow scope of tactical medicine) is NOT like most first aid, BLS or most well known "ABC's" training. It is a different animal intended to address a specific narrow spectrum of care. These are not the most common things to kill people HERE. I would encourage you to look into BLS, ACLS if you want to be ready for the most common threats to civilians in the U.S.

However, I also feel ANYONE dealing with firearms on a regular basis puts them-self at an increased risk and should know exactly what they need to do if someone gets hit. Just my personal feeling.

ETA: Email me if this is something you want to arrange.




I would also definitely be interested in a 1 or 2 day course near Richmond.
W_E_G  [Team Member]
11/10/2011 9:29:40 PM
You cannot get EMT-B certification in a "one or two day" class.

...or even anything close to that.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMT-B

And then you have to PASS the practical and written exam.
DrJWelch  [Team Member]
11/10/2011 10:04:13 PM
Originally Posted By W_E_G:
You cannot get EMT-B certification in a "one or two day" class.

...or even anything close to that.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMT-B

And then you have to PASS the practical and written exam.


Please quote who you are responding to? The only traffic I see on here about 1-2 days classes is about my GSW trauma class. This has nothing to do with EMT courses. The man put the word "tactical" in his thread title. As I am somewhat experienced in the tactical medicine field, I thought I would give my input. Please help us help you.
Some friendly advice, try not to cite wikipedia to back up anything in the medical field.



Argus  [Member]
11/10/2011 11:19:08 PM
Originally Posted By W_E_G:
You cannot get EMT-B certification in a "one or two day" class.

...or even anything close to that.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMT-B

And then you have to PASS the practical and written exam.


I was referring to the GSW class that DRJWelch is so kindly considering offering. I have a basic blowout kit on my range bag, and it would be nice to get some professional instruction on how to use it. There's only so much one can learn from reading web pages and watching YouTube, but I don't need or want full EMT training either. I think a 1 or 2 day course that goes into the basics of dealing with GSW's and other trauma would be fantastic. The idea would be to learn what I can do to help ensure my or someone else's survival until the EMT's get there.
mylt1  [Member]
11/11/2011 1:27:09 AM
Originally Posted By W_E_G:
You cannot get EMT-B certification in a "one or two day" class.

...or even anything close to that.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMT-B

And then you have to PASS the practical and written exam.


EMT-B in Va is only 136 hours total. 120 hours of class room and 16 hours split between in the field and in the ER. not the 160 posted on wiki.
mylt1  [Member]
11/11/2011 1:48:25 AM
Originally Posted By Argus:
Originally Posted By W_E_G:
You cannot get EMT-B certification in a "one or two day" class.

...or even anything close to that.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMT-B

And then you have to PASS the practical and written exam.


I was referring to the GSW class that DRJWelch is so kindly considering offering. I have a basic blowout kit on my range bag, and it would be nice to get some professional instruction on how to use it. There's only so much one can learn from reading web pages and watching YouTube, but I don't need or want full EMT training either. I think a 1 or 2 day course that goes into the basics of dealing with GSW's and other trauma would be fantastic. The idea would be to learn what I can do to help ensure my or someone else's survival until the EMT's get there.


no offense but a 2 day class without any real training of how the body reacts is kind of pointless. anyone can stop bleeding but knowing what to do after than comes with the basic EMS training. i have been doing this for over 13 years and shooting all my life, want to know how many GSW's i have been to? NONE. you are more likely to need CPR long before you would need the specialized training that DrJ is offering.
pevrs114  [Member]
11/11/2011 4:51:16 PM
Originally Posted By mylt1:
Originally Posted By Argus:
Originally Posted By W_E_G:
You cannot get EMT-B certification in a "one or two day" class.

...or even anything close to that.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMT-B

And then you have to PASS the practical and written exam.


I was referring to the GSW class that DRJWelch is so kindly considering offering. I have a basic blowout kit on my range bag, and it would be nice to get some professional instruction on how to use it. There's only so much one can learn from reading web pages and watching YouTube, but I don't need or want full EMT training either. I think a 1 or 2 day course that goes into the basics of dealing with GSW's and other trauma would be fantastic. The idea would be to learn what I can do to help ensure my or someone else's survival until the EMT's get there.


no offense but a 2 day class without any real training of how the body reacts is kind of pointless. anyone can stop bleeding but knowing what to do after than comes with the basic EMS training. i have been doing this for over 13 years and shooting all my life, want to know how many GSW's i have been to? NONE. you are more likely to need CPR long before you would need the specialized training that DrJ is offering.



But some of us HAVE had medical training. And ARE in a position to need and use the specialty gunshot training.


W_E_G  [Team Member]
11/13/2011 9:15:40 AM
Hey, how about that.

Wiki's EMT cert hour-number differs from VA's by a few hours.

Gosh I feel stupid now.
DrJWelch  [Team Member]
11/13/2011 11:29:13 AM
Originally Posted By W_E_G:
Hey, how about that.

Wiki's EMT cert hour-number differs from VA's by a few hours.

Gosh I feel stupid now.


Don't feel stupid about that. Do consider how the "EMT-B" that you referenced is considered out of date and we will no longer be recognizing it as a status.
The status of EMT certifications will be EMT -> Advanced EMT -> Intermediate -> Paramedic. You will notice there is no "EMT-B". Unfortunately your wiki site does not state that. So you actually gave a perfect example of why not to use wiki.

Since we are talking about Virginia, I referenced the Virginia State Site for you http://www.vdh.state.va.us/OEMS/Training/Accreditation.htm. They do indicate on the state site the EMT status replaces "former EMT-B".
I hope that helps but I will have to start billing you for these lessons.

mylt1  [Member]
11/13/2011 1:49:13 PM
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Originally Posted By W_E_G:
Hey, how about that.

Wiki's EMT cert hour-number differs from VA's by a few hours.

Gosh I feel stupid now.


Don't feel stupid about that. Do consider how the "EMT-B" that you referenced is considered out of date and we will no longer be recognizing it as a status.
The status of EMT certifications will be EMT -> Advanced EMT -> Intermediate -> Paramedic. You will notice there is no "EMT-B". Unfortunately your wiki site does not state that. So you actually gave a perfect example of why not to use wiki.

Since we are talking about Virginia, I referenced the Virginia State Site for you http://www.vdh.state.va.us/OEMS/Training/Accreditation.htm. They do indicate on the state site the EMT status replaces "former EMT-B".
I hope that helps but I will have to start billing you for these lessons.



actually, DOT is getting rid of intermediate and that will only be a VA cert like Enhanced is now. the DOT is going EMT/EMT advanced/NRP. Va has been talking about getting rid of Enhanced for year but it would hurt to may rural area of Va so it continues to hang on.
DrJWelch  [Team Member]
11/13/2011 2:10:59 PM
Originally Posted By mylt1:
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Originally Posted By W_E_G:
Hey, how about that.

Wiki's EMT cert hour-number differs from VA's by a few hours.

Gosh I feel stupid now.


Don't feel stupid about that. Do consider how the "EMT-B" that you referenced is considered out of date and we will no longer be recognizing it as a status.
The status of EMT certifications will be EMT -> Advanced EMT -> Intermediate -> Paramedic. You will notice there is no "EMT-B". Unfortunately your wiki site does not state that. So you actually gave a perfect example of why not to use wiki.

Since we are talking about Virginia, I referenced the Virginia State Site for you http://www.vdh.state.va.us/OEMS/Training/Accreditation.htm. They do indicate on the state site the EMT status replaces "former EMT-B".
I hope that helps but I will have to start billing you for these lessons.



actually, DOT is getting rid of intermediate and that will only be a VA cert like Enhanced is now. the DOT is going EMT/EMT advanced/NRP. Va has been talking about getting rid of Enhanced for year but it would hurt to may rural area of Va so it continues to hang on.



Good to know. I am heavily involved in accreditation in GA,but not VA or DOT. That is why I had to make sure by looking at the VA website.
mylt1  [Member]
11/13/2011 5:36:40 PM
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Originally Posted By mylt1:
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Originally Posted By W_E_G:
Hey, how about that.

Wiki's EMT cert hour-number differs from VA's by a few hours.

Gosh I feel stupid now.


Don't feel stupid about that. Do consider how the "EMT-B" that you referenced is considered out of date and we will no longer be recognizing it as a status.
The status of EMT certifications will be EMT -> Advanced EMT -> Intermediate -> Paramedic. You will notice there is no "EMT-B". Unfortunately your wiki site does not state that. So you actually gave a perfect example of why not to use wiki.

Since we are talking about Virginia, I referenced the Virginia State Site for you http://www.vdh.state.va.us/OEMS/Training/Accreditation.htm. They do indicate on the state site the EMT status replaces "former EMT-B".
I hope that helps but I will have to start billing you for these lessons.



actually, DOT is getting rid of intermediate and that will only be a VA cert like Enhanced is now. the DOT is going EMT/EMT advanced/NRP. Va has been talking about getting rid of Enhanced for year but it would hurt to may rural area of Va so it continues to hang on.



Good to know. I am heavily involved in accreditation in GA,but not VA or DOT. That is why I had to make sure by looking at the VA website.


Va follows DOT standards but have there own things like Enhanced. what i am hearing is Va will continue to have "intermediate" even after the DOT gets rid of it. of course, nothing is set in stone so im taking a wait and see stand point.
bigbrownbear  [Team Member]
11/13/2011 8:52:56 PM
You have three recertification periods before you lose youe EMT-I. So basically 6 years to finish medic, or be converted to an EMT. There is also word that they are doing away with a "Registered" anything and changing it to Certified......

There were also some rumors of an I to P bridge class without clinical hours. Which would be nice for peeps like me who have a non EMS job and only do it volly
mylt1  [Member]
11/13/2011 9:13:52 PM
Originally Posted By bigbrownbear:
You have three recertification periods before you lose youe EMT-I. So basically 6 years to finish medic, or be converted to an EMT. There is also word that they are doing away with a "Registered" anything and changing it to Certified......

There were also some rumors of an I to P bridge class without clinical hours. Which would be nice for peeps like me who have a non EMS job and only do it volly


before you lose your national registered I. (but you wouldnt drop to an EMT you would dropped to Enhanced) as i said, rumors from the office of EMS is they are going to continue with the I program but it will be just a VA cert like Enhanced. EMT-P is going to NRP(NAtional Registered Paramedic), so they are continuing the "registered" in the cert names.
W_E_G  [Team Member]
11/13/2011 9:17:19 PM
Gosh, I really feel stupid now.

I'm sure the wiki thing was a career-altering event for the OP.

And after all, the VDH website is such a delightful site to navigate (especially if your default browser is not IE),
why would anybody in Virginia with just a casual interest the subject not want to go to the VDH site?

mylt1  [Member]
11/13/2011 10:13:23 PM
Originally Posted By W_E_G:
Gosh, I really feel stupid now.

I'm sure the wiki thing was a career-altering event for the OP.

And after all, the VDH website is such a delightful site to navigate (especially if your default browser is not IE),
why would anybody in Virginia with just a casual interest the subject not want to go to the VDH site?

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/smileys/exclaim.gif


yeah, not sure what the website designers were thinking when they redid the site. it sucks now. it wasnt much better before but you could find what you wanted/needed. i cant find shit on that site now.
pevrs114  [Member]
11/15/2011 12:22:22 PM
Originally Posted By bigbrownbear:
You have three recertification periods before you lose youe EMT-I. So basically 6 years to finish medic, or be converted to an EMT. There is also word that they are doing away with a "Registered" anything and changing it to Certified......

There were also some rumors of an I to P bridge class without clinical hours. Which would be nice for peeps like me who have a non EMS job and only do it volly


Which is exactly what they did with Cardiac a few years ago.

I wish they'd make up their fucking mind.

These herpaderp games are killing rural volly ems
mylt1  [Member]
11/16/2011 8:52:31 PM
Originally Posted By pevrs114:
Originally Posted By bigbrownbear:
You have three recertification periods before you lose youe EMT-I. So basically 6 years to finish medic, or be converted to an EMT. There is also word that they are doing away with a "Registered" anything and changing it to Certified......

There were also some rumors of an I to P bridge class without clinical hours. Which would be nice for peeps like me who have a non EMS job and only do it volly


Which is exactly what they did with Cardiac a few years ago.

I wish they'd make up their fucking mind.

These herpaderp games are killing rural volly ems


talked to Wayne Berry today, Enhanced and Intermediate levels are NOT going anywhere any time soon here in the Commonwealth. that is strait from the man himself as an official rep of OEMS.
AirborneJanitor  [Member]
1/11/2012 11:45:13 AM
Sorry to bring back this thread from the dead, but if anyone is interested I can give them a quick class (hour or so) on tactical/combat trauma care.

I'm currently stationed up at Fort Myer and I was EMT-B certified (let the renewal lapse) and also a graduate of USASOC's combat trauma management course. Although I never went to the SOCM (Special Operations Combat Medic) course I was taught quite a bit by some of the finest medics SOCOM has to offer. I am an 11B and spent two years and two deployments working for USASOC.

I can give info/courses on the application of tourniquets, Israeli dressings, gauze and kerlix, chest seals, pressure dressings and other trauma management techniques in regards to gunshot wounds and other combat related trauma.

On the weekends I spend my time in Richmond where I own a house, so I can also give classes to any fellow RVAers.

Anyone interested?
Prime  [Team Member]
1/19/2012 7:34:44 AM

Originally Posted By mylt1:
Originally Posted By Argus:
Originally Posted By W_E_G:
You cannot get EMT-B certification in a "one or two day" class.

...or even anything close to that.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMT-B

And then you have to PASS the practical and written exam.


I was referring to the GSW class that DRJWelch is so kindly considering offering. I have a basic blowout kit on my range bag, and it would be nice to get some professional instruction on how to use it. There's only so much one can learn from reading web pages and watching YouTube, but I don't need or want full EMT training either. I think a 1 or 2 day course that goes into the basics of dealing with GSW's and other trauma would be fantastic. The idea would be to learn what I can do to help ensure my or someone else's survival until the EMT's get there.


no offense but a 2 day class without any real training of how the body reacts is kind of pointless. anyone can stop bleeding but knowing what to do after than comes with the basic EMS training. i have been doing this for over 13 years and shooting all my life, want to know how many GSW's i have been to? NONE. you are more likely to need CPR long before you would need the specialized training that DrJ is offering.

Just in case anyone's still reading this I want to point out that I disagree with every statement in the above post.

1. Not just anyone can stop bleeding, or else it wouldn't be the number one cause of preventable combat death. And it doesn't matter what comes after- you stopped the bleeding and bought you or your patient another couple of hours for EMS to get there. And you can learn the skills to stop bleeding in two days. The military does it all the time.

2. I've been carrying a concealed handgun for about thirteen years, and do you know how many times I've needed it? NONE.

3. The number of times CPR works in a trauma patient is statistically insignificant. If you're dead from trauma, CPR will not fix it. Deciding that learning to stop bleeding is too complicated for you so you're just going to learn CPR so you can try in vain to bring someone back after they've already died is illogical. Combat first aid is not rocket science.

Take classes, people.

DrJWelch  [Team Member]
1/19/2012 1:14:28 PM
Prime has got it correct. I have been teaching 1-2-3 all the way up to 14 day courses of field trauma management to the military for 5 years now.
These courses were traditionally for HSLD guys only (which by the way I have trained all of those cool guys) so of course a lot of the older conventional military vets and posers do not believe or know about it. Luckily the DOD has slowly come around since 9/11 and we have ALL components of DOD (especially conventional forces) getting access to the training. It is just a matter of the command paying out of their pocket to get it. You can check out feedback from a recent one day class that I posted at the bottom of this website. http://www.SOFmedicine.com/tacticalmedicine/
These courses aren't for everybody and that is why you either have to be military or active law enforcement to attend most of them.
Most of the students that I teach will have their lives in jeopardy at some point and we don't have time to cloud their minds with peoples/civilian-medics anecdotal advice.

I love this job, I love it more than practicing emergency medicine.
Having former students contact me from "astan" to tell me they saved a buddies life is all I need to know!



Originally Posted By Prime:

Originally Posted By mylt1:
Originally Posted By Argus:
Originally Posted By W_E_G:
You cannot get EMT-B certification in a "one or two day" class.

...or even anything close to that.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMT-B

And then you have to PASS the practical and written exam.


I was referring to the GSW class that DRJWelch is so kindly considering offering. I have a basic blowout kit on my range bag, and it would be nice to get some professional instruction on how to use it. There's only so much one can learn from reading web pages and watching YouTube, but I don't need or want full EMT training either. I think a 1 or 2 day course that goes into the basics of dealing with GSW's and other trauma would be fantastic. The idea would be to learn what I can do to help ensure my or someone else's survival until the EMT's get there.


no offense but a 2 day class without any real training of how the body reacts is kind of pointless. anyone can stop bleeding but knowing what to do after than comes with the basic EMS training. i have been doing this for over 13 years and shooting all my life, want to know how many GSW's i have been to? NONE. you are more likely to need CPR long before you would need the specialized training that DrJ is offering.

Just in case anyone's still reading this I want to point out that I disagree with every statement in the above post.

1. Not just anyone can stop bleeding, or else it wouldn't be the number one cause of preventable combat death. And it doesn't matter what comes after- you stopped the bleeding and bought you or your patient another couple of hours for EMS to get there. And you can learn the skills to stop bleeding in two days. The military does it all the time.

2. I've been carrying a concealed handgun for about thirteen years, and do you know how many times I've needed it? NONE.

3. The number of times CPR works in a trauma patient is statistically insignificant. If you're dead from trauma, CPR will not fix it. Deciding that learning to stop bleeding is too complicated for you so you're just going to learn CPR so you can try in vain to bring someone back after they've already died is illogical. Combat first aid is not rocket science.

Take classes, people.



mylt1  [Member]
1/22/2012 8:58:54 PM
Originally Posted By Prime:

Originally Posted By mylt1:
Originally Posted By Argus:
Originally Posted By W_E_G:
You cannot get EMT-B certification in a "one or two day" class.

...or even anything close to that.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMT-B

And then you have to PASS the practical and written exam.


I was referring to the GSW class that DRJWelch is so kindly considering offering. I have a basic blowout kit on my range bag, and it would be nice to get some professional instruction on how to use it. There's only so much one can learn from reading web pages and watching YouTube, but I don't need or want full EMT training either. I think a 1 or 2 day course that goes into the basics of dealing with GSW's and other trauma would be fantastic. The idea would be to learn what I can do to help ensure my or someone else's survival until the EMT's get there.


no offense but a 2 day class without any real training of how the body reacts is kind of pointless. anyone can stop bleeding but knowing what to do after than comes with the basic EMS training. i have been doing this for over 13 years and shooting all my life, want to know how many GSW's i have been to? NONE. you are more likely to need CPR long before you would need the specialized training that DrJ is offering.

Just in case anyone's still reading this I want to point out that I disagree with every statement in the above post.

1. Not just anyone can stop bleeding, or else it wouldn't be the number one cause of preventable combat death. And it doesn't matter what comes after- you stopped the bleeding and bought you or your patient another couple of hours for EMS to get there. And you can learn the skills to stop bleeding in two days. The military does it all the time.

2. I've been carrying a concealed handgun for about thirteen years, and do you know how many times I've needed it? NONE.

3. The number of times CPR works in a trauma patient is statistically insignificant. If you're dead from trauma, CPR will not fix it. Deciding that learning to stop bleeding is too complicated for you so you're just going to learn CPR so you can try in vain to bring someone back after they've already died is illogical. Combat first aid is not rocket science.

Take classes, people.



disagree all you want facts are facts. the reason blood loss is the #1 cause of preventable death on a battle field is your in a fight and stopping that fight before it is over is going to end in a lot more deaths. common sense eludes you it seems. unless every solder can stop there own bleeding it takes another solder out of the fight. if the injured solder is in the open, are you going to lever cover and expose yourself to stop that bleeding? if you do you will more than likely become a statistic as well. now we shall move on to your reading comprehension. where in that post did i mention anything about doing CPR on a trauma PT?
mylt1  [Member]
1/22/2012 9:04:27 PM
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Prime has got it correct. I have been teaching 1-2-3 all the way up to 14 day courses of field trauma management to the military for 5 years now.
These courses were traditionally for HSLD guys only (which by the way I have trained all of those cool guys) so of course a lot of the older conventional military vets and posers do not believe or know about it. Luckily the DOD has slowly come around since 9/11 and we have ALL components of DOD (especially conventional forces) getting access to the training. It is just a matter of the command paying out of their pocket to get it. You can check out feedback from a recent one day class that I posted at the bottom of this website. http://www.SOFmedicine.com/tacticalmedicine/
These courses aren't for everybody and that is why you either have to be military or active law enforcement to attend most of them.
Most of the students that I teach will have their lives in jeopardy at some point and we don't have time to cloud their minds with peoples/civilian-medics anecdotal advice.

I love this job, I love it more than practicing emergency medicine.
Having former students contact me from "astan" to tell me they saved a buddies life is all I need to know!


i can guarantee i treat 10x more pts in a year than any single person that takes any of your classes. who do you think has more experience to give advice? not only treating pt's but also doing continuing education every month means i have not only the hands on experience but also the classroom and book experience. i dont have to hear from people that someone i taught saved there friends life i do it for a living. doing>teaching.
DrJWelch  [Team Member]
1/22/2012 9:11:25 PM
Originally Posted By mylt1:
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Prime has got it correct. I have been teaching 1-2-3 all the way up to 14 day courses of field trauma management to the military for 5 years now.
These courses were traditionally for HSLD guys only (which by the way I have trained all of those cool guys) so of course a lot of the older conventional military vets and posers do not believe or know about it. Luckily the DOD has slowly come around since 9/11 and we have ALL components of DOD (especially conventional forces) getting access to the training. It is just a matter of the command paying out of their pocket to get it. You can check out feedback from a recent one day class that I posted at the bottom of this website. http://www.SOFmedicine.com/tacticalmedicine/
These courses aren't for everybody and that is why you either have to be military or active law enforcement to attend most of them.
Most of the students that I teach will have their lives in jeopardy at some point and we don't have time to cloud their minds with peoples/civilian-medics anecdotal advice.

I love this job, I love it more than practicing emergency medicine.
Having former students contact me from "astan" to tell me they saved a buddies life is all I need to know!




i can guarantee i treat 10x more pts in a year than any single person that takes any of your classes. who do you think has more experience to give advice? not only treating pt's but also doing continuing education every month means i have not only the hands on experience but also the classroom and book experience. i dont have to hear from people that someone i taught saved there friends life i do it for a living. doing>teaching.


I don't understand your point?
Also, I don't understand how you can back it up?
I still teach med students, and residents, Bethesda military med school being the most recent. Do you see more patients than them?
I agree experience is much better than any class, that is why I still work in an emergency room as a staff physician.
The VA hometown forum has been incredible, I tell ya...


ETA: Than not then.
mylt1  [Member]
1/22/2012 9:31:53 PM
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Originally Posted By mylt1:
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Prime has got it correct. I have been teaching 1-2-3 all the way up to 14 day courses of field trauma management to the military for 5 years now.
These courses were traditionally for HSLD guys only (which by the way I have trained all of those cool guys) so of course a lot of the older conventional military vets and posers do not believe or know about it. Luckily the DOD has slowly come around since 9/11 and we have ALL components of DOD (especially conventional forces) getting access to the training. It is just a matter of the command paying out of their pocket to get it. You can check out feedback from a recent one day class that I posted at the bottom of this website. http://www.SOFmedicine.com/tacticalmedicine/
These courses aren't for everybody and that is why you either have to be military or active law enforcement to attend most of them.
Most of the students that I teach will have their lives in jeopardy at some point and we don't have time to cloud their minds with peoples/civilian-medics anecdotal advice.

I love this job, I love it more than practicing emergency medicine.
Having former students contact me from "astan" to tell me they saved a buddies life is all I need to know!




i can guarantee i treat 10x more pts in a year than any single person that takes any of your classes. who do you think has more experience to give advice? not only treating pt's but also doing continuing education every month means i have not only the hands on experience but also the classroom and book experience. i dont have to hear from people that someone i taught saved there friends life i do it for a living. doing>teaching.


I don't understand your point?
Also, I don't understand how you can back it up?
I still teach med students, and residents, Bethesda military med school being the most recent. Do you see more patients than them?
I agree experience is much better than any class, that is why I still work in an emergency room as a staff physician.
The VA hometown forum has been incredible, I tell ya...


ETA: Than not then.


we are not talking about you teaching med school classes, the topic was a 2 day class. while i dont treat as many pt's as a Dr, i do treat probably 400 or more pt's a year. my last year as a voly alone i ran 368 ambulance calls not counting accidents and fires. so far this year i have treated/transported 38 pt's and its only the 22nd.
DrJWelch  [Team Member]
1/22/2012 9:41:17 PM
Originally Posted By mylt1:
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Originally Posted By mylt1:
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Prime has got it correct. I have been teaching 1-2-3 all the way up to 14 day courses of field trauma management to the military for 5 years now.
These courses were traditionally for HSLD guys only (which by the way I have trained all of those cool guys) so of course a lot of the older conventional military vets and posers do not believe or know about it. Luckily the DOD has slowly come around since 9/11 and we have ALL components of DOD (especially conventional forces) getting access to the training. It is just a matter of the command paying out of their pocket to get it. You can check out feedback from a recent one day class that I posted at the bottom of this website. http://www.SOFmedicine.com/tacticalmedicine/
These courses aren't for everybody and that is why you either have to be military or active law enforcement to attend most of them.
Most of the students that I teach will have their lives in jeopardy at some point and we don't have time to cloud their minds with peoples/civilian-medics anecdotal advice.

I love this job, I love it more than practicing emergency medicine.
Having former students contact me from "astan" to tell me they saved a buddies life is all I need to know!




i can guarantee i treat 10x more pts in a year than any single person that takes any of your classes. who do you think has more experience to give advice? not only treating pt's but also doing continuing education every month means i have not only the hands on experience but also the classroom and book experience. i dont have to hear from people that someone i taught saved there friends life i do it for a living. doing>teaching.


I don't understand your point?
Also, I don't understand how you can back it up?
I still teach med students, and residents, Bethesda military med school being the most recent. Do you see more patients than them?
I agree experience is much better than any class, that is why I still work in an emergency room as a staff physician.
The VA hometown forum has been incredible, I tell ya...


ETA: Than not then.


we are not talking about you teaching med school classes, the topic was a 2 day class. while i dont treat as many pt's as a Dr, i do treat probably 400 or more pt's a year. my last year as a voly alone i ran 368 ambulance calls not counting accidents and fires. so far this year i have treated/transported 38 pt's and its only the 22nd.


Once again, I am unsure of what you want from me? I do HAVE DOCTORS take some of the 2 day classes. You stated my students will have "less experience than you" so I thought I would cite the General Medical Officer military students to share some insight that they are not only medical inexperienced "operators" taking the class.

ETA: I treated 22 patients by Jan 3rd. Seriously. I took the Jan 2nd as a day off.
mylt1  [Member]
1/22/2012 11:22:52 PM
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Originally Posted By mylt1:
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Originally Posted By mylt1:
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Prime has got it correct. I have been teaching 1-2-3 all the way up to 14 day courses of field trauma management to the military for 5 years now.
These courses were traditionally for HSLD guys only (which by the way I have trained all of those cool guys) so of course a lot of the older conventional military vets and posers do not believe or know about it. Luckily the DOD has slowly come around since 9/11 and we have ALL components of DOD (especially conventional forces) getting access to the training. It is just a matter of the command paying out of their pocket to get it. You can check out feedback from a recent one day class that I posted at the bottom of this website. http://www.SOFmedicine.com/tacticalmedicine/
These courses aren't for everybody and that is why you either have to be military or active law enforcement to attend most of them.
Most of the students that I teach will have their lives in jeopardy at some point and we don't have time to cloud their minds with peoples/civilian-medics anecdotal advice.

I love this job, I love it more than practicing emergency medicine.
Having former students contact me from "astan" to tell me they saved a buddies life is all I need to know!




i can guarantee i treat 10x more pts in a year than any single person that takes any of your classes. who do you think has more experience to give advice? not only treating pt's but also doing continuing education every month means i have not only the hands on experience but also the classroom and book experience. i dont have to hear from people that someone i taught saved there friends life i do it for a living. doing>teaching.


I don't understand your point?
Also, I don't understand how you can back it up?
I still teach med students, and residents, Bethesda military med school being the most recent. Do you see more patients than them?
I agree experience is much better than any class, that is why I still work in an emergency room as a staff physician.
The VA hometown forum has been incredible, I tell ya...


ETA: Than not then.


we are not talking about you teaching med school classes, the topic was a 2 day class. while i dont treat as many pt's as a Dr, i do treat probably 400 or more pt's a year. my last year as a voly alone i ran 368 ambulance calls not counting accidents and fires. so far this year i have treated/transported 38 pt's and its only the 22nd.


Once again, I am unsure of what you want from me? I do HAVE DOCTORS take some of the 2 day classes. You stated my students will have "less experience than you" so I thought I would cite the General Medical Officer military students to share some insight that they are not only medical inexperienced "operators" taking the class.

ETA: I treated 22 patients by Jan 3rd. Seriously. I took the Jan 2nd as a day off.


sorry Doc, its not really about you per say. its more about the reasoning of a 1 or 2 day GSW class. a basic first aid class would do worlds more for the membership here than such a specialized class on just GSW's. GSW's can be treated without any such special training since bleeding control should be part of any first aid class. i apologize for calling you out on this due to the off topic track this thread was taking. if you were to teach a basic first aid class in the tidewater area i would be more than happy to sit in and help out with the hands on side of it.
ckichinko  [Team Member]
1/23/2012 1:03:50 AM
Originally Posted By mylt1:
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Originally Posted By mylt1:
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Originally Posted By mylt1:
Originally Posted By DrJWelch:
Prime has got it correct. I have been teaching 1-2-3 all the way up to 14 day courses of field trauma management to the military for 5 years now.
These courses were traditionally for HSLD guys only (which by the way I have trained all of those cool guys) so of course a lot of the older conventional military vets and posers do not believe or know about it. Luckily the DOD has slowly come around since 9/11 and we have ALL components of DOD (especially conventional forces) getting access to the training. It is just a matter of the command paying out of their pocket to get it. You can check out feedback from a recent one day class that I posted at the bottom of this website. http://www.SOFmedicine.com/tacticalmedicine/
These courses aren't for everybody and that is why you either have to be military or active law enforcement to attend most of them.
Most of the students that I teach will have their lives in jeopardy at some point and we don't have time to cloud their minds with peoples/civilian-medics anecdotal advice.

I love this job, I love it more than practicing emergency medicine.
Having former students contact me from "astan" to tell me they saved a buddies life is all I need to know!




i can guarantee i treat 10x more pts in a year than any single person that takes any of your classes. who do you think has more experience to give advice? not only treating pt's but also doing continuing education every month means i have not only the hands on experience but also the classroom and book experience. i dont have to hear from people that someone i taught saved there friends life i do it for a living. doing>teaching.


I don't understand your point?
Also, I don't understand how you can back it up?
I still teach med students, and residents, Bethesda military med school being the most recent. Do you see more patients than them?
I agree experience is much better than any class, that is why I still work in an emergency room as a staff physician.
The VA hometown forum has been incredible, I tell ya...


ETA: Than not then.


we are not talking about you teaching med school classes, the topic was a 2 day class. while i dont treat as many pt's as a Dr, i do treat probably 400 or more pt's a year. my last year as a voly alone i ran 368 ambulance calls not counting accidents and fires. so far this year i have treated/transported 38 pt's and its only the 22nd.


Once again, I am unsure of what you want from me? I do HAVE DOCTORS take some of the 2 day classes. You stated my students will have "less experience than you" so I thought I would cite the General Medical Officer military students to share some insight that they are not only medical inexperienced "operators" taking the class.

ETA: I treated 22 patients by Jan 3rd. Seriously. I took the Jan 2nd as a day off.


sorry Doc, its not really about you per say. its more about the reasoning of a 1 or 2 day GSW class. a basic first aid class would do worlds more for the membership here than such a specialized class on just GSW's. GSW's can be treated without any such special training since bleeding control should be part of any first aid class. i apologize for calling you out on this due to the off topic track this thread was taking. if you were to teach a basic first aid class in the tidewater area i would be more than happy to sit in and help out with the hands on side of it.


If you don't like the class, don't take the class. That's all that really needs to be said.
W_E_G  [Team Member]
1/23/2012 10:07:37 AM
You know the discussion is getting serious when the posters go into mega-multi-quote mode.
Prime  [Team Member]
1/23/2012 10:56:48 AM
Originally Posted By mylt1:
disagree all you want facts are facts. the reason blood loss is the #1 cause of preventable death on a battle field is your in a fight and stopping that fight before it is over is going to end in a lot more deaths. common sense eludes you it seems. unless every solder can stop there own bleeding it takes another solder out of the fight. if the injured solder is in the open, are you going to lever cover and expose yourself to stop that bleeding? if you do you will more than likely become a statistic as well. now we shall move on to your reading comprehension. where in that post did i mention anything about doing CPR on a trauma PT?


No one in DoD has EVER said that soldiers stopping the fight to help someone is the reason uncontrolled hemorrhage is the leading cause of preventable battlefield death. They run on pure numbers- anyone who bleeds out is counted as a preventable combat death. To say that the number is calculated by extrapolating that x number of soldiers died because they were trying to get bleeding to stop ("stopping the fight before it is over") shows a complete lack of familiarity with how these numbers are calculated. It is the #1 cause of death because more people die from exsanguination than die from tension pneumo (#2), and airway obstruction (#3).
Period.

I'm not sure why you launched off on the "Care Under Fire" tangent. No one's debating whether to stop the fight or to "lever" cover. We're debating your assertion that civilian shooters don't need GSW training. To say that you've seen 13 years worth of patients and never treated a GSW and because of that civilians don't need GSW training is as illogical as saying I should stop carrying a gun because I haven't needed to use it yet. Civilians have died from negligent/accidental discharges. To deny that or the possibility that it could happen again is illogical. And the reason you don't understand the CPR statement is that you're still trying to deny that an ND will ever hit someone in the femoral, brachial, chest wall, or jaw. If someone follows your advice and only learns CPR, they have effectively let someone die by following your advice if they ever actually need to respond to someone with a gunshot wound. That needs to be very clear to the reader trying to make up their minds on how to best spend their time and money. Ideally they should take both CPR and a good trauma course, because you are right about one thing- they are more likely to use CPR. But if they're worried about trauma, CPR will not help like it does on TV.

We get that you're a highly trained medical professional, but you're outside your lane. DrJW and I know more about the field management of trauma than you do. It's okay, I'm sure you know more about civilian emergency medicine than I do- it's not a contest. But know your role.
Meletti  [Team Member]
1/23/2012 11:25:13 AM
Originally Posted By W_E_G:
...
The "Brady" manual is what we used when I got certified as an EMT-B.
I can highly recommend it.
Brady manual at Amazon
...


Saw this post and bought the book just to have in my collection. Thanks for the tip!
gplg  [Member]
1/23/2012 9:47:09 PM
Little late on this, but I 2nd taking a Wilderness First Responder class. I took the EMT Upgrade from SOLO in NC and it was great. They do a two weekish First Responder class and combine it with wilderness medicine. While not totally practical and has different protocols in urban areas, it teaches you to use anything and everything laying around to treat injuries.
Argus  [Member]
1/23/2012 10:52:18 PM
Guess I'll get pop back in here. There appear to be some pretty knowledgeable people contending that there is no worthwhile training between "apply direct pressure and wait for the ambulance" and getting EMT certification. I find that hard to believe, but if that's really the case, so be it.

Otherwise, I am still interested in taking a class that goes beyond Basic First Aid/CPR (which I have) but doesn't go to the level of EMT training (which I am not going to do). As someone who carries a gun and shoots regularly, I do have a particular interest in dealing with GSW's, but would also certainly be interested in learning more about how to handle other types of trauma.

Some topics I personally would be interested in, which the Red Cross doesn't teach at the YMCA, are things like:
Proper use of a tourniquet like the CAT-T, etc on others as well as myself
Proper application of OLAES/IBD type bandages
Hemostatic agents
Dealing with sucking chest wounds
And lots of stuff that I don't know I don't know

I never expect to need any of this. Similarly, I never expect to have to shoot anyone, but I still carry a gun just about every day and take firearms training whenever I can.
Prime  [Team Member]
1/24/2012 2:16:33 AM
Originally Posted By Argus:
Guess I'll get pop back in here. There appear to be some pretty knowledgeable people contending that there is no worthwhile training between "apply direct pressure and wait for the ambulance" and getting EMT certification. I find that hard to believe, but if that's really the case, so be it.

Otherwise, I am still interested in taking a class that goes beyond Basic First Aid/CPR (which I have) but doesn't go to the level of EMT training (which I am not going to do). As someone who carries a gun and shoots regularly, I do have a particular interest in dealing with GSW's, but would also certainly be interested in learning more about how to handle other types of trauma.

Some topics I personally would be interested in, which the Red Cross doesn't teach at the YMCA, are things like:
Proper use of a tourniquet like the CAT-T, etc on others as well as myself
Proper application of OLAES/IBD type bandages
Hemostatic agents
Dealing with sucking chest wounds
And lots of stuff that I don't know I don't know

I never expect to need any of this. Similarly, I never expect to have to shoot anyone, but I still carry a gun just about every day and take firearms training whenever I can.


This is exactly the attitude that I have a problem with. EMT certification is all about recognizing certain conditions and getting those individuals to a hospital by way of an ambulance, which means jack to someone who doesn't have a hospital or an ambulance full of gear. There is very little in the way of treatment in an EMT course, and in a good weekend tacmed course, you'll get about as much hands on practice with tourniquets, bandages, and airways.

Here's my recommendation- get this. PHTLS is what EMTs take when they want to actually learn about trauma, and it is an excellent text. The military edition goes into how the military incorporates medical treatment into combat, which is actually a more useful concept than you'd think for civilians. TCCC is about deciding whether to treat the patient or do something else. That something else could be dragging your patient out of a burning building or car, getting them off of a sinking boat, or getting them off of the ground so they don't develop hypothermia, which is a far more serious prospect in trauma patients than a lot of providers think. So get this book and read through it when you can, and take a weekend course later on IF you can. You'll be way ahead of most people when it comes to knowing basic first aid, and you'll know what to do in the unlikely scenario that you or someone near you is shot.

That's what I think anyway.