Archived Posts » 59,789,155
Pittsburgh Area NFA Lawyer and Class 3 dealer questions
11/27/2011 8:53:20 PM
Ok, I posted this over on PAFOA,but haven't gotten a response in almost a week. So with a quick copy/paste, we have my questions...
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Hey all,
Not a whole lotta posts, but got a few questions.
I'm in Allegheny County, in McKeesport, so I'm looking around for a few things. As the title says, a good trust lawyer (I have no problem driving to Pittsburgh) and some questions about Class 3 dealers in my area.
As for a lawyer, I'm looking at setting up a firearms trust. I'm only 18, but figure I might as well get a trust set up now for A) Privacy, B)convenience and C) advance planning.
I figure if I'm walking down the street and get hit by lightning/hit by a runaway bus or whatever, I'd want as smooth a transition, legally speaking for future NFA purchases as possible for either my parents or future wife/kids.
As such, I'm looking for a lawyer who has experience setting these up, and, big thing here, won't bend me over about prices. [I'm a poor college student, what can I say]. Can anyone recommend a lawyer or two?
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Second: As far as class three dealers go, I've seen "PA Defense Consultants" as being right up the road from me. I've stopped by several times, but they're always closed... Anyone have any experience with them or any other good C3 dealers int he Mckeesport/Pittsburgh area?
Also... As far as regulations go, I'd like to clarify a few things on my end...
I bought an 11.5" bbled upper for an AR with the intention of making an AR pistol, and then Form 1 SBRing it (hence the above trust questions).
I was under the impression that because receivers are considered neither rifles nor pistols, they are transferred as receivers, regardless of what you are going to do with it upon first assembly.
As such, me, being 18, could not purchase one, except through a private sale (not having the machining know-how or tools ruled out an 80%receiver), so my dad agreed to buy me a lower as my belated 18th birthday present.
It was the first time he's ever purchased a gun, so when we went to the shop, he was full of questions.
They were very, very curious as to how it was being initially assembled. I questioned them about transferring it as a pistol, as they insisted, because to my knowledge, it doesnt matter. It's a receiver, and should be transferred as such on the 4473. They stated "no, if you're going shorter than 16 inches it'd better be a pistol, otherwise its an illegal SBR... We cannot just transfer it as a receiver, it's gotta be a rifle or pistol..."
So my dad said pistol, which it is currently. So they made him fill out a second form, one i was not familiar with, to register it to him.
Was this the correct thing to do? If so, can him giving it to me be considered a gift, or do we have to head to a sheriffs office or what-not to transfer it to my name? what was this other form?
Reply With Quote
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Hey all,
Not a whole lotta posts, but got a few questions.
I'm in Allegheny County, in McKeesport, so I'm looking around for a few things. As the title says, a good trust lawyer (I have no problem driving to Pittsburgh) and some questions about Class 3 dealers in my area.
As for a lawyer, I'm looking at setting up a firearms trust. I'm only 18, but figure I might as well get a trust set up now for A) Privacy, B)convenience and C) advance planning.
I figure if I'm walking down the street and get hit by lightning/hit by a runaway bus or whatever, I'd want as smooth a transition, legally speaking for future NFA purchases as possible for either my parents or future wife/kids.
As such, I'm looking for a lawyer who has experience setting these up, and, big thing here, won't bend me over about prices. [I'm a poor college student, what can I say]. Can anyone recommend a lawyer or two?
––-
Second: As far as class three dealers go, I've seen "PA Defense Consultants" as being right up the road from me. I've stopped by several times, but they're always closed... Anyone have any experience with them or any other good C3 dealers int he Mckeesport/Pittsburgh area?
Also... As far as regulations go, I'd like to clarify a few things on my end...
I bought an 11.5" bbled upper for an AR with the intention of making an AR pistol, and then Form 1 SBRing it (hence the above trust questions).
I was under the impression that because receivers are considered neither rifles nor pistols, they are transferred as receivers, regardless of what you are going to do with it upon first assembly.
As such, me, being 18, could not purchase one, except through a private sale (not having the machining know-how or tools ruled out an 80%receiver), so my dad agreed to buy me a lower as my belated 18th birthday present.
It was the first time he's ever purchased a gun, so when we went to the shop, he was full of questions.
They were very, very curious as to how it was being initially assembled. I questioned them about transferring it as a pistol, as they insisted, because to my knowledge, it doesnt matter. It's a receiver, and should be transferred as such on the 4473. They stated "no, if you're going shorter than 16 inches it'd better be a pistol, otherwise its an illegal SBR... We cannot just transfer it as a receiver, it's gotta be a rifle or pistol..."
So my dad said pistol, which it is currently. So they made him fill out a second form, one i was not familiar with, to register it to him.
Was this the correct thing to do? If so, can him giving it to me be considered a gift, or do we have to head to a sheriffs office or what-not to transfer it to my name? what was this other form?
Reply With Quote
11/28/2011 9:19:24 AM
I too am interested in a local, lower priced lawyer. I'd like the peace of mind that it was setup by a lawyer (not quicken), but asking $500 for a mad-lib of <insert name> and <insert beneficiary> and <insert property> is too high for a social worker's entry fee.
11/28/2011 10:17:07 AM
Any lawyer who is competent writing wills & trusts can do a revocable trust as a holding vehicle fir NFA items; theres nothing particularly special about an NFA trust. The cost will probably be a few hundred bucks, but you're paying for a professionals time and experience. If that seems like too much to spend and you only plan to buy one or two NFA items you may be better off just doing it as an individual. If you're going to use it for more than 1-2 NFA items, its more worth it as you can amortize the cost over many items.
11/28/2011 1:14:50 PM
I deal with Pennsylvania Defense Consultants regularly. It's best to call him around 5-6 PM, during the week. He is only generally open during the week in the evening as he a police officer in two different communities. Good guy.
I'd also like to add that Tom at Pfrogners Firearms in Coal Center is an NFA Dealer. Also, John Browns Armory in Rochester and Bloodhound Arms. All NFA dealers.
I'd also like to add that Tom at Pfrogners Firearms in Coal Center is an NFA Dealer. Also, John Browns Armory in Rochester and Bloodhound Arms. All NFA dealers.
11/28/2011 7:36:34 PM
PA Defense is good people.
11/28/2011 7:48:52 PM
So my dad said pistol, which it is currently. So they made him fill out a second form, one i was not familiar with, to register it to him.
Was this the correct thing to do? If so, can him giving it to me be considered a gift, or do we have to head to a sheriffs office or what-not to transfer it to my name? what was this other form?
Reply With Quote
The second form that you are asking about is a Application/Record of Sale. This is required on all handgun sales in Pa. This form registered the handgun "lower receiver" to your father. It is now on file with the Pa State Police.
You do not do a firearms transfer at the Sheriffs office or any Police Department in Pa. All firearms transfers go through FFL's. When you are able to take possession of that now "handgun" registered lower you will do the transfer at a FFL. Do not confuse other State Laws as far as owning, buying and transferring of Firearms in Pa. The laws that you need to keep up with are the Pa laws.
11/28/2011 7:53:18 PM
As far as the trust. If your local PD will sign off on the Form then why not just do it to your name? Now if the local PD will not sign off, then you have no other choice. I would think that $500 sounds about right for a face to face Attorney in this area. As was said above. Any Attorney that does Wills should be able to do a trust, LLC, or INC. Do you have a family Attorney that you can contact? That would be the best place to start.
11/29/2011 11:35:30 AM
Originally Posted By bullet3:
So my dad said pistol, which it is currently. So they made him fill out a second form, one i was not familiar with, to register it to him.
Was this the correct thing to do? If so, can him giving it to me be considered a gift, or do we have to head to a sheriffs office or what-not to transfer it to my name? what was this other form?
Reply With Quote
The second form that you are asking about is a Application/Record of Sale. This is required on all handgun sales in Pa. This form registered the handgun "lower receiver" to your father. It is now on file with the Pa State Police.
You do not do a firearms transfer at the Sheriffs office or any Police Department in Pa. All firearms transfers go through FFL's. When you are able to take possession of that now "handgun" registered lower you will do the transfer at a FFL. Do not confuse other State Laws as far as owning, buying and transferring of Firearms in Pa. The laws that you need to keep up with are the Pa laws.
So my dad said pistol, which it is currently. So they made him fill out a second form, one i was not familiar with, to register it to him.
Was this the correct thing to do? If so, can him giving it to me be considered a gift, or do we have to head to a sheriffs office or what-not to transfer it to my name? what was this other form?
Reply With Quote
The second form that you are asking about is a Application/Record of Sale. This is required on all handgun sales in Pa. This form registered the handgun "lower receiver" to your father. It is now on file with the Pa State Police.
You do not do a firearms transfer at the Sheriffs office or any Police Department in Pa. All firearms transfers go through FFL's. When you are able to take possession of that now "handgun" registered lower you will do the transfer at a FFL. Do not confuse other State Laws as far as owning, buying and transferring of Firearms in Pa. The laws that you need to keep up with are the Pa laws.
Oh, ok, that makes sense... So it's his, legally speaking. This raises another question:
With it being considered a pistol, if I form a trust (which I plan to, I plan to collect stamps for a good long while) will my dad have to officially transfer its possession to the trust?
My parents and sibling will be trustees, of course.
And when I get my stamp back to SBR it, how will that affect this Application/record of sale? Will it become null and void? OR will it still be considered a "pistol" by the state and require this record of sale along with a Form 4 if it's ever transferred (not planning on that. I plan to keep this a good long while)?
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The reason I ask about a sheriff... I asked around on PAFOA about transferring pistols to someone under 21, and they said that I would have to go to a sheriffs office to have one transferred to me, because I am under 21, and an FFL could not transfer it to me once it became entered into their bound book. So if I were to purchase a .22 pistol or something I'd have to go to a sheriff to get it registered in my name.
11/29/2011 12:20:58 PM
I am using Joshua Prince, he is doing everything for me over the phone/via email.
Prince Law Firm
ETA: I am doing the trust route over individual because I can allow other significant people to have use/possession of the items and inheritance/chain of possession under any circumstance can be planned for up to two generations.
Prince Law Firm
ETA: I am doing the trust route over individual because I can allow other significant people to have use/possession of the items and inheritance/chain of possession under any circumstance can be planned for up to two generations.
12/1/2011 2:16:47 PM
Originally Posted By John_Lenin:
Oh, ok, that makes sense... So it's his, legally speaking. This raises another question:
With it being considered a pistol, if I form a trust (which I plan to, I plan to collect stamps for a good long while) will my dad have to officially transfer its possession to the trust?
My parents and sibling will be trustees, of course.
And when I get my stamp back to SBR it, how will that affect this Application/record of sale? Will it become null and void? OR will it still be considered a "pistol" by the state and require this record of sale along with a Form 4 if it's ever transferred (not planning on that. I plan to keep this a good long while)?
––––-
The reason I ask about a sheriff... I asked around on PAFOA about transferring pistols to someone under 21, and they said that I would have to go to a sheriffs office to have one transferred to me, because I am under 21, and an FFL could not transfer it to me once it became entered into their bound book. So if I were to purchase a .22 pistol or something I'd have to go to a sheriff to get it registered in my name.
Originally Posted By bullet3:
So my dad said pistol, which it is currently. So they made him fill out a second form, one i was not familiar with, to register it to him.
Was this the correct thing to do? If so, can him giving it to me be considered a gift, or do we have to head to a sheriffs office or what-not to transfer it to my name? what was this other form?
Reply With Quote
The second form that you are asking about is a Application/Record of Sale. This is required on all handgun sales in Pa. This form registered the handgun "lower receiver" to your father. It is now on file with the Pa State Police.
You do not do a firearms transfer at the Sheriffs office or any Police Department in Pa. All firearms transfers go through FFL's. When you are able to take possession of that now "handgun" registered lower you will do the transfer at a FFL. Do not confuse other State Laws as far as owning, buying and transferring of Firearms in Pa. The laws that you need to keep up with are the Pa laws.
So my dad said pistol, which it is currently. So they made him fill out a second form, one i was not familiar with, to register it to him.
Was this the correct thing to do? If so, can him giving it to me be considered a gift, or do we have to head to a sheriffs office or what-not to transfer it to my name? what was this other form?
Reply With Quote
The second form that you are asking about is a Application/Record of Sale. This is required on all handgun sales in Pa. This form registered the handgun "lower receiver" to your father. It is now on file with the Pa State Police.
You do not do a firearms transfer at the Sheriffs office or any Police Department in Pa. All firearms transfers go through FFL's. When you are able to take possession of that now "handgun" registered lower you will do the transfer at a FFL. Do not confuse other State Laws as far as owning, buying and transferring of Firearms in Pa. The laws that you need to keep up with are the Pa laws.
Oh, ok, that makes sense... So it's his, legally speaking. This raises another question:
With it being considered a pistol, if I form a trust (which I plan to, I plan to collect stamps for a good long while) will my dad have to officially transfer its possession to the trust?
My parents and sibling will be trustees, of course.
And when I get my stamp back to SBR it, how will that affect this Application/record of sale? Will it become null and void? OR will it still be considered a "pistol" by the state and require this record of sale along with a Form 4 if it's ever transferred (not planning on that. I plan to keep this a good long while)?
––––-
The reason I ask about a sheriff... I asked around on PAFOA about transferring pistols to someone under 21, and they said that I would have to go to a sheriffs office to have one transferred to me, because I am under 21, and an FFL could not transfer it to me once it became entered into their bound book. So if I were to purchase a .22 pistol or something I'd have to go to a sheriff to get it registered in my name.
I believe these might be better asked in the "General Class Three" sub forum. I will start a new thread there, if appropriate.
12/2/2011 11:52:14 AM
Originally Posted By DDiggler:
I am using Joshua Prince, he is doing everything for me over the phone/via email.
Prince Law Firm
ETA: I am doing the trust route over individual because I can allow other significant people to have use/possession of the items and inheritance/chain of possession under any circumstance can be planned for up to two generations.
I am using Joshua Prince, he is doing everything for me over the phone/via email.
Prince Law Firm
ETA: I am doing the trust route over individual because I can allow other significant people to have use/possession of the items and inheritance/chain of possession under any circumstance can be planned for up to two generations.
Let me know how that works out.
12/5/2011 11:59:21 AM
Originally Posted By bullet3:
So my dad said pistol, which it is currently. So they made him fill out a second form, one i was not familiar with, to register it to him.
Was this the correct thing to do? If so, can him giving it to me be considered a gift, or do we have to head to a sheriffs office or what-not to transfer it to my name? what was this other form?
Reply With Quote
The second form that you are asking about is a Application/Record of Sale. This is required on all handgun sales in Pa. This form registered the handgun "lower receiver" to your father. It is now on file with the Pa State Police.
You do not do a firearms transfer at the Sheriffs office or any Police Department in Pa. All firearms transfers go through FFL's. When you are able to take possession of that now "handgun" registered lower you will do the transfer at a FFL. Do not confuse other State Laws as far as owning, buying and transferring of Firearms in Pa. The laws that you need to keep up with are the Pa laws.
So my dad said pistol, which it is currently. So they made him fill out a second form, one i was not familiar with, to register it to him.
Was this the correct thing to do? If so, can him giving it to me be considered a gift, or do we have to head to a sheriffs office or what-not to transfer it to my name? what was this other form?
Reply With Quote
The second form that you are asking about is a Application/Record of Sale. This is required on all handgun sales in Pa. This form registered the handgun "lower receiver" to your father. It is now on file with the Pa State Police.
You do not do a firearms transfer at the Sheriffs office or any Police Department in Pa. All firearms transfers go through FFL's. When you are able to take possession of that now "handgun" registered lower you will do the transfer at a FFL. Do not confuse other State Laws as far as owning, buying and transferring of Firearms in Pa. The laws that you need to keep up with are the Pa laws.
No. No paperwork necessary for father to son transfers.
All he has to do is hand it to you.
12/5/2011 4:15:52 PM
I used Prince Law Firm. 
1/10/2012 12:04:21 PM
Your dealer is a dumbass if he said he couldnt transfer a receiver as a receiver without a rifle or pistol designation. A virgin receiver transfers as a firearm which is neither a pistol nor a long gun. That said, firearms get treated like handguns for the purposes of initial transfer on the 4473 so while you do have to be 21 to buy one you dont have to do the PA handgun form because it isn't a handgun.
I'd go the trus route (and have). I used Josh prince as well and was very happy with the end result. NFA trusts are slightly different than a standard trust because they make specific allowances for firearms specific law and give direction to the trustees as to how to handle the firearms in question. There are some other PA specific oddities concerning devaluation that need to be addressed as well. IMHO, Josh is worth the money.
I'd go the trus route (and have). I used Josh prince as well and was very happy with the end result. NFA trusts are slightly different than a standard trust because they make specific allowances for firearms specific law and give direction to the trustees as to how to handle the firearms in question. There are some other PA specific oddities concerning devaluation that need to be addressed as well. IMHO, Josh is worth the money.
1/11/2012 12:02:26 PM
Originally Posted By SchlaffTablett:
Your dealer is a dumbass if he said he couldnt transfer a receiver as a receiver without a rifle or pistol designation. A virgin receiver transfers as a firearm which is neither a pistol nor a long gun. That said, firearms get treated like handguns for the purposes of initial transfer on the 4473 so while you do have to be 21 to buy one you dont have to do the PA handgun form because it isn't a handgun.
I'd go the trus route (and have). I used Josh prince as well and was very happy with the end result. NFA trusts are slightly different than a standard trust because they make specific allowances for firearms specific law and give direction to the trustees as to how to handle the firearms in question. There are some other PA specific oddities concerning devaluation that need to be addressed as well. IMHO, Josh is worth the money.
Your dealer is a dumbass if he said he couldnt transfer a receiver as a receiver without a rifle or pistol designation. A virgin receiver transfers as a firearm which is neither a pistol nor a long gun. That said, firearms get treated like handguns for the purposes of initial transfer on the 4473 so while you do have to be 21 to buy one you dont have to do the PA handgun form because it isn't a handgun.
I'd go the trus route (and have). I used Josh prince as well and was very happy with the end result. NFA trusts are slightly different than a standard trust because they make specific allowances for firearms specific law and give direction to the trustees as to how to handle the firearms in question. There are some other PA specific oddities concerning devaluation that need to be addressed as well. IMHO, Josh is worth the money.
That is now not correct....Thank you Asshat Rendell.....
Stripped receivers must now be transfered as a pistol and both forms must be completed.
He was not saying it wrong but that was a change for registration in PA.
Link to archived thread
1/11/2012 12:51:27 PM
I stad corrected. I haven't sold a receiver only in years and wasn't aware of the change. Still shouldn't have needed to list as a pistol or long gun but now I know.
1/11/2012 9:27:29 PM
Originally Posted By EchoAngel17:
That is now not correct....Thank you Asshat Rendell.....
Stripped receivers must now be transfered as a pistol and both forms must be completed.
He was not saying it wrong but that was a change for registration in PA.
Link to archived thread
Originally Posted By SchlaffTablett:
Your dealer is a dumbass if he said he couldnt transfer a receiver as a receiver without a rifle or pistol designation. A virgin receiver transfers as a firearm which is neither a pistol nor a long gun. That said, firearms get treated like handguns for the purposes of initial transfer on the 4473 so while you do have to be 21 to buy one you dont have to do the PA handgun form because it isn't a handgun.
I'd go the trus route (and have). I used Josh prince as well and was very happy with the end result. NFA trusts are slightly different than a standard trust because they make specific allowances for firearms specific law and give direction to the trustees as to how to handle the firearms in question. There are some other PA specific oddities concerning devaluation that need to be addressed as well. IMHO, Josh is worth the money.
Your dealer is a dumbass if he said he couldnt transfer a receiver as a receiver without a rifle or pistol designation. A virgin receiver transfers as a firearm which is neither a pistol nor a long gun. That said, firearms get treated like handguns for the purposes of initial transfer on the 4473 so while you do have to be 21 to buy one you dont have to do the PA handgun form because it isn't a handgun.
I'd go the trus route (and have). I used Josh prince as well and was very happy with the end result. NFA trusts are slightly different than a standard trust because they make specific allowances for firearms specific law and give direction to the trustees as to how to handle the firearms in question. There are some other PA specific oddities concerning devaluation that need to be addressed as well. IMHO, Josh is worth the money.
That is now not correct....Thank you Asshat Rendell.....
Stripped receivers must now be transfered as a pistol and both forms must be completed.
He was not saying it wrong but that was a change for registration in PA.
Link to archived thread
Are you sure that rule is still standing? I thought it went away last year? Citation on this anyone?
1/12/2012 9:09:25 AM
Originally Posted By bullet3:
Are you sure that rule is still standing? I thought it went away last year? Citation on this anyone?
Originally Posted By EchoAngel17:
That is now not correct....Thank you Asshat Rendell.....
Stripped receivers must now be transfered as a pistol and both forms must be completed.
He was not saying it wrong but that was a change for registration in PA.
Link to archived thread
Originally Posted By SchlaffTablett:
Your dealer is a dumbass if he said he couldnt transfer a receiver as a receiver without a rifle or pistol designation. A virgin receiver transfers as a firearm which is neither a pistol nor a long gun. That said, firearms get treated like handguns for the purposes of initial transfer on the 4473 so while you do have to be 21 to buy one you dont have to do the PA handgun form because it isn't a handgun.
I'd go the trus route (and have). I used Josh prince as well and was very happy with the end result. NFA trusts are slightly different than a standard trust because they make specific allowances for firearms specific law and give direction to the trustees as to how to handle the firearms in question. There are some other PA specific oddities concerning devaluation that need to be addressed as well. IMHO, Josh is worth the money.
Your dealer is a dumbass if he said he couldnt transfer a receiver as a receiver without a rifle or pistol designation. A virgin receiver transfers as a firearm which is neither a pistol nor a long gun. That said, firearms get treated like handguns for the purposes of initial transfer on the 4473 so while you do have to be 21 to buy one you dont have to do the PA handgun form because it isn't a handgun.
I'd go the trus route (and have). I used Josh prince as well and was very happy with the end result. NFA trusts are slightly different than a standard trust because they make specific allowances for firearms specific law and give direction to the trustees as to how to handle the firearms in question. There are some other PA specific oddities concerning devaluation that need to be addressed as well. IMHO, Josh is worth the money.
That is now not correct....Thank you Asshat Rendell.....
Stripped receivers must now be transfered as a pistol and both forms must be completed.
He was not saying it wrong but that was a change for registration in PA.
Link to archived thread
Are you sure that rule is still standing? I thought it went away last year? Citation on this anyone?
I just bought two lowers....both stripped and asked that same question last week.
I was informed that until a new written directive replaces that last one, FFL transfers in PA for stripped lowers must be submitted with both forms completed.
This shop even advised that they have been asked when they call in for PICS approval that they have been asked for "weapon type" when an operator connects.
I thought that information was not to be asked but obviously there has been yet another "safety measure" enacted....
As for PA Bulliten releases or written statements.....I got nothing other than the information posted for the archived thread discussions and my personal experience to tell you it is still what is going on.
1/12/2012 11:10:40 AM
The last stripped lower I bought (it was within the last year), they asked if I was going to build a pistol or a rifle. When I said rifle, they had me only do one form.
1/12/2012 11:58:31 AM
You need to have that shop contact the PSP Firearms Unit. I did and was correct with my last post. They did at one point "other thread" require that the lowers when purchased needed to be on both forms. The PSP Firearms Unit reviewed the definition of what a firearm is and they came to the determination that if it does not have a barrel it does not go on the PA form. You still need to do a 4473 and the PICS and that is all. On the PICS Surcharge Form it would be listed as a taxable or non-taxable Long Gun.
Again this is the interweb. Have your local dealer contact the PSP for clarification.
Again this is the interweb. Have your local dealer contact the PSP for clarification.
1/12/2012 12:21:45 PM
Guys, have your dealers consult with the Jan. 2010 PSP Firearm Dealer Newsletter. The order to place AR receivers on the App./ROS form was rescinded two years ago.
1/31/2012 1:50:35 AM
Originally Posted By DDiggler:
I am using Joshua Prince, he is doing everything for me over the phone/via email.
Prince Law Firm
ETA: I am doing the trust route over individual because I can allow other significant people to have use/possession of the items and inheritance/chain of possession under any circumstance can be planned for up to two generations.
I am using Joshua Prince, he is doing everything for me over the phone/via email.
Prince Law Firm
ETA: I am doing the trust route over individual because I can allow other significant people to have use/possession of the items and inheritance/chain of possession under any circumstance can be planned for up to two generations.
I have to say 2 solid thumbs up for Joshua Prince of Prince Law Firm. I am in Pittsburgh, he did my NFA trust. He explained everything to me over the phone, had a fast turnaround time on the paperwork, and is always available to answer questions via phone or email. He knows his stuff about these matters.
