AR15.Com Archives
 Legal to buy long guns out of state?
ghostrider4evr  [Member]
12/1/2005 3:11:26 AM
Would it be legal to buy an AR out of state and store it there? I'm going to be moving to Nevada in a little over a year and may be able to store it at a friends house until then. I've heard sometihng along the lines of doing a private sale/transfer at gunshows, but was hoping someone could shed some more light on this. Thanks.
NeoWeird  [Member]
12/1/2005 3:25:29 AM
As far as I know, the only way to buy a firearm out of state when a California resident is if it is a C&R and you have a C&R license. I am pretty sure it's a federal law that you can only buy firearms in the state you reside in (or states if you have dual residency) unless you are licensed to do otherwise.

I could be wrong, haven't looked into it, that was just how I understood things to work.

ETA: Welcome to the Boards.
Tempest45  [Member]
12/1/2005 5:07:08 PM
This is my understanding as well. Just wait until you can move here.

Also, if you do come to gun shows over here, I have heard that both ATF and Cali DOJ are on the lookout for people with Cali ID's trying buy weapons over here.

I suppose if you wanted to build one, you could buy everyting except the lower and leave the stuff with your friend here.
ghostrider4evr  [Member]
12/1/2005 11:44:02 PM
Thanks for the great advice, I probably will just wait until I move there.
nfalawyer  [Member]
12/3/2005 1:24:53 AM
My reading of the law is that it IS legal for California residents to purchase long arms out-of-state, provided it would be legal for you to purchase the same item in California. Thus, unless the law of the state where you were purchasing the item prohibited out-of-state residents from purchasing long guns, you could. There should be no problem with your buying, for example, a Remington 700 in another state. I considered buying a Remington 870 in NY State as a California resident, which would have been perfectly legal since I can buy one here.

However, it would NOT be legal for an FFL to sell you an AR-15 (or other Assault Weapon) out-of-state, because you could not legally purchase one here anymore (since the registration period closed long ago). Since your question pertains to an AR-15, the short answer to your specific question is "not through an FFL." I looked into this specific issue a couple of years ago, when I found a great deal on a couple of Eagle AR lowers in NY. After researching the problem, I determined that the FFL would get in trouble if he sold me the receivers (which I intended to leave in NY).

The issue of a private party transfer is murky and quite frankly, I don't know the answer. It seems to me that the problem would arise for the seller/transferor - not you, provided you left the firearm out-of-state.


Mauser101  [Team Member]
12/3/2005 3:49:10 AM
Gun store I went to in Wisconsin didn't seem to mind at all that I purchased an O/U shotgun out there. [/shrug]
MisterSuzuki  [Team Member]
12/3/2005 4:57:11 AM

Originally Posted By nfalawyer:
My reading of the law is that it IS legal for California residents to purchase long arms out-of-state, provided it would be legal for you to purchase the same item in California. Thus, unless the law of the state where you were purchasing the item prohibited out-of-state residents from purchasing long guns, you could. There should be no problem with your buying, for example, a Remington 700 in another state. I considered buying a Remington 870 in NY State as a California resident, which would have been perfectly legal since I can buy one here.

However, it would NOT be legal for an FFL to sell you an AR-15 (or other Assault Weapon) out-of-state, because you could not legally purchase one here anymore (since the registration period closed long ago). Since your question pertains to an AR-15, the short answer to your specific question is "not through an FFL." I looked into this specific issue a couple of years ago, when I found a great deal on a couple of Eagle AR lowers in NY. After researching the problem, I determined that the FFL would get in trouble if he sold me the receivers (which I intended to leave in NY).

The issue of a private party transfer is murky and quite frankly, I don't know the answer. It seems to me that the problem would arise for the seller/transferor - not you, provided you left the firearm out-of-state.






Any dealer, in all 50 states, can sell you a gun.......but he cannot, and will not deliver it to you.

He will gladly take your money, and then YOUR homestate FFL, must send, or now they can fax their FFL to the dealer you bought your gun from.

If your homestate FFL sees that you bought an AR15, he will probably just ship it back to the dealer he bought it from, or surrender it to an LEO, or destroy it, or sell it to an AW Dealer......

So yes, any dealer in any state can take your money, and tell you its completely legal......but in the end, you'll be out some $.......and nothing you can do about it.

A friend of mine fell for this when he was visiting me.........but all was not lost, and I was able to take it home, and just filled out the 4473 and kept them, and reimbursed my friend for them.

I, might want to check with the DOJ, but only pre-1898 (?), or some other fancy year guns can be bought, without a DROS.

For some reason, CA residents cannot buy long guns in any state..........though residents in free states, can buy long guns in any state of the Union......except states like CA, and other restictive states.

There's no legal way, as a resident of CA, that you can buy any long gun, or handgun....unless its on the approved DOJ list, antique, or a NON-AW.

If you do manage.....you more than likely will break GCA, and CA DOJ laws by doing so.

IMHO.....

ghostrider4evr  [Member]
12/4/2005 7:21:40 AM
Just seems like more trouble than its worth. My shotguns and M1A will have to hold me over until the time comes to move. Once again thanks for all the responses I really appreciate the input.
talbalos  [Member]
12/4/2005 4:04:30 PM
FEDERAL law says that a resident of State A can go to DEALER in State B and purchase a firearm as long as the transaction complies with the laws of both State A and B.

December 2002 FFL Newsletter:
www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/newsletter/1202fflnewsletter.pdf

CONTIGUOUS STATE

The phrase “contiguous state” no longer has meaning under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), as amended. Nevertheless, it continues to confuse many long-time firearms dealers,especially when residents of other States visit their gun shops. For those who may not be familiar with this phrase, it appeared in the GCA prior to 1986. The “contiguous state” exception allowed FFLs to sell long guns to residents of contiguous states if the purchaser’s State of residence permitted such sale by law and the sale complied with the legal conditions of sale in both States. A State was “contiguous” to another State if it was adjacent to (bordering) that State. For example, Georgia and Alabama are in fact both contiguous to Florida, and the GCA formally recognized this and similar relationships.

In 1986, certain amendments to the GCA rendered the phrase “contiguous state” obsolete and without meaning for firearms dealers. Since 1986, licensed firearms dealers have been allowed to sell a long gun over-the-counter to an unlicensed resident of any State, provided (1) the purchaser is not otherwise prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm under the GCA, and (2) the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and seller’s States.



August 2004 FFL Newsletter:
www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/newsletter/ffl_newsltr_aug04.pdf

CONTIGUOUS STATE – PART 2

In an article that appeared in the December 2002 edition of the FFL Newsletter, we advised FFLs
that the “contiguous state” provisions of the Gun Control Act were amended in 1986, and that the GCA allows dealers to sell or dispose of a long gun to a resident of another state provided, (1) the purchaser was not otherwise prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm under the GCA, and ( 2) the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and seller’s States.

The condition of sale relating to compliance with the applicable laws of both States cited above
continues to cause confusion among dealers, particularly among those dealers who conduct business in a State whose laws presently contain language that allows “contiguous state” sales. Historically, prior to the 1986 amendments to the GCA, many States enacted provisions in their laws
that allowed their residents to acquire a long gun in a contiguous State. For the most part, these State
law provisions were modeled after the contiguous state provisions of the GCA. However, even
though the GCA was amended in 1986 to allow the sale of long guns to residents of any State
pursuant to the conditions cited above, many States have not yet amended their laws to reflect similar
language. ATF takes the position that if the laws of a given State allow its residents to acquire a long
gun in a contiguous State, those laws also allow its residents to acquire a long gun in any other State
where the laws of that State permit such transactions, unless the language contained in that State’s law expressly prohibits it residents from acquiring a firearm outside that State. Questions regarding particular State law provisions should be referred to your local ATF office.



In the case of a resident of California, as long as the firearm is on the roster of approved handguns and is not an AW, Class 3 or 50 BMG, California law requires MOST transactions to go through an FFL (I say most because intrafamily transfers are exempt and so are many C&R transactions)

But if a California resident goes to a dealer in another state, the firearm is supposed to be shipped to a California FFL for DROS and the mandatory 10 day waiting period (Along with the DROS fees).

From the CA DOJ FAQ page:
caag.state.ca.us/firearms/pubfaqs.htm#7

What is the process for purchasing a firearm in California?

All firearms purchases and transfers, including private party transactions and sales at gun shows, must be made through a licensed dealer under the Dealer Record of Sale (DROS) process. California imposes a 10-day waiting period before a firearm can be released to a buyer or transferee. A person must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a rifle or shotgun. To buy a handgun, a person must be at least 21 years of age, and either 1) possess an HSC plus successfully complete a safety demonstration with the handgun being purchased or 2) qualify for an HSC exemption.

As part of the DROS process, the buyer must present "clear evidence of identity and age" which is defined as a valid, non-expired California Driver's License or Identification Card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles. A military identification accompanied by permanent duty station orders indicating a posting in California is also acceptable.

If the buyer is not a U.S. Citizen, then he or she is required to demonstrate that he or she is legally within the United States by providing to the firearms dealer with documentation that contains his/her Alien Registration Number or I-94 Number.

Purchasers of handguns are also required to provide proof of California residency, such as a utility bill, residential lease, property deed, or government-issued identification (other than a drivers license or other DMV-issued identification).



Many dealers outside California don't know or understand California laws and don't want to deal with it. So they won't sell to Californians.
maxicon  [Member]
12/4/2005 9:01:15 PM

Many dealers outside California don't know or understand California laws and don't want to deal with it. So they won't sell to Californians.


This has been my experience.

As I understand it, in order to follow the laws of both states, as the BATFE requires, you'd have to have a 10 day waiting period. Non-California gun shops aren't set up for this, and the ones I've asked about it won't sell guns to Californians for this reason, or because they just don't want to mess with California laws.

You can find shops that will sell to Californians as if they lived in any normal free state, just like there are shops that will ship C&R rifles that are less than 50 years old to Californians, but it's technically illegal.

max
EOD_Guy  [Team Member]
12/5/2005 12:21:20 PM

Originally Posted By maxicon:

Many dealers outside California don't know or understand California laws and don't want to deal with it. So they won't sell to Californians.


This has been my experience.

As I understand it, in order to follow the laws of both states, as the BATFE requires, you'd have to have a 10 day waiting period. Non-California gun shops aren't set up for this, and the ones I've asked about it won't sell guns to Californians for this reason, or because they just don't want to mess with California laws.

You can find shops that will sell to Californians as if they lived in any normal free state, just like there are shops that will ship C&R rifles that are less than 50 years old to Californians, but it's technically illegal.

max



California law requires that firearms sales be conducted with a California licensed dealer and be processed through the DROS system. That is why unlicensed California residents cannot purchase rifles or shotguns from out of state dealers unless they are shipped to a California dealer for transfer.

Also, it is more that "technically illegal" to ship C&R rifles that are more than 50 years old to Californians. (I assume you are talking about those with C&R FFLs.) It is a violation of Federal law. (Even to C&R FFL holders.) See 27CFR § 478.58.
FNC80  [Member]
12/5/2005 2:25:43 PM
Why not just pick up the phone and ask DOJ. If it's still not clear, request a ruling.
USMCCPL  [Member]
12/6/2005 1:09:01 AM
So lets suppose that your father lives in a Free state and he buys the AR and then decides to give it to his son (which is a CA resident) would that be illegal if the son were to leave the AR in that Free state? Wouldn't that be a intrafamily transfer, which is exempt?
EOD_Guy  [Team Member]
12/6/2005 11:23:23 AM

Originally Posted By USMCCPL:
So lets suppose that your father lives in a Free state and he buys the AR and then decides to give it to his son (which is a CA resident) would that be illegal if the son were to leave the AR in that Free state? Wouldn't that be a intrafamily transfer, which is exempt?



A direct transfer between residents of different states is, in most cases, a violation of Federal law. Intrafamily transfers are not exempt.

Now, would anyone care? The son could just borrow the AR when he visits.
mike452  [Member]
12/7/2005 1:26:22 AM
Yes you can own an AR out of state and store it there. I saw a few companies in Nevada that will store your AR when CA started the banned and some people didn't want to register their ARs with the state. I think you do need to get a Nevada license.

Just get the new CA legal Bushmaster Carbon 15 Top Loading Carbine from Bushmaster.

EOD_Guy  [Team Member]
12/7/2005 9:45:40 AM

Originally Posted By mike452:
Yes you can own an AR out of state and store it there. I saw a few companies in Nevada that will store your AR when CA started the banned and some people didn't want to register their ARs with the state. I think you do need to get a Nevada license.

Just get the new CA legal Bushmaster Carbon 15 Top Loading Carbine from Bushmaster.

www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/Images/azc-c15rm4ft.jpg



True, but you had to own the AR before the ban. You can't purchase one now and store it out of state.
Bosko  [Team Member]
12/9/2005 2:13:54 AM
I posted a similar question on another board today and got laughed at...

What if there is no dealer involded... FTF Private party sale (unlicensed persons).?
talbalos  [Member]
12/9/2005 4:03:17 AM

Originally Posted By Bosko:
I posted a similar question on another board today and got laughed at...

What if there is no dealer involved... FTF Private party sale (unlicensed persons).?


Habla ingles? Comprende?

Read threads. See the text from the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Newsletters to FFL's I posted here and at Calguns.

FTF between individuals residing in different states is illegal if one of them is a California resident. Like undocumented aliens.


FEDERAL law says that a resident of State A can go to DEALER in State B and purchase a firearm as long as the transaction complies with the laws of both State A and B.

December 2002 FFL Newsletter:
www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/newsletter/1202fflnewsletter.pdf

CONTIGUOUS STATE

The phrase “contiguous state” no longer has meaning under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), as amended. Nevertheless, it continues to confuse many long-time firearms dealers,especially when residents of other States visit their gun shops. For those who may not be familiar with this phrase, it appeared in the GCA prior to 1986. The “contiguous state” exception allowed FFLs to sell long guns to residents of contiguous states if the purchaser’s State of residence permitted such sale by law and the sale complied with the legal conditions of sale in both States. A State was “contiguous” to another State if it was adjacent to (bordering) that State. For example, Georgia and Alabama are in fact both contiguous to Florida, and the GCA formally recognized this and similar relationships.

In 1986, certain amendments to the GCA rendered the phrase “contiguous state” obsolete and without meaning for firearms dealers. Since 1986, licensed firearms dealers have been allowed to sell a long gun over-the-counter to an unlicensed resident of any State, provided (1) the purchaser is not otherwise prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm under the GCA, and (2) the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and seller’s States.



August 2004 FFL Newsletter:
www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/newsletter/ffl_newsltr_aug04.pdf

CONTIGUOUS STATE – PART 2

In an article that appeared in the December 2002 edition of the FFL Newsletter, we advised FFLs
that the “contiguous state” provisions of the Gun Control Act were amended in 1986, and that the GCA allows dealers to sell or dispose of a long gun to a resident of another state provided, (1) the purchaser was not otherwise prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm under the GCA, and ( 2) the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and seller’s States.

The condition of sale relating to compliance with the applicable laws of both States cited above
continues to cause confusion among dealers, particularly among those dealers who conduct business in a State whose laws presently contain language that allows “contiguous state” sales. Historically, prior to the 1986 amendments to the GCA, many States enacted provisions in their laws
that allowed their residents to acquire a long gun in a contiguous State. For the most part, these State
law provisions were modeled after the contiguous state provisions of the GCA. However, even
though the GCA was amended in 1986 to allow the sale of long guns to residents of any State
pursuant to the conditions cited above, many States have not yet amended their laws to reflect similar
language. ATF takes the position that if the laws of a given State allow its residents to acquire a long
gun in a contiguous State, those laws also allow its residents to acquire a long gun in any other State
where the laws of that State permit such transactions, unless the language contained in that State’s law expressly prohibits it residents from acquiring a firearm outside that State. Questions regarding particular State law provisions should be referred to your local ATF office.



In the case of a resident of California, as long as the firearm is on the roster of approved handguns and is not an AW, Class 3 or 50 BMG, California law requires MOST transactions to go through an FFL (I say most because intrafamily transfers are exempt and so are many C&R transactions)

But if a California resident goes to a dealer in another state, the firearm is supposed to be shipped to a California FFL for DROS and the mandatory 10 day waiting period (Along with the DROS fees).

From the CA DOJ FAQ page:
caag.state.ca.us/firearms/pubfaqs.htm#7

What is the process for purchasing a firearm in California?

All firearms purchases and transfers, including private party transactions and sales at gun shows, must be made through a licensed dealer under the Dealer Record of Sale (DROS) process. California imposes a 10-day waiting period before a firearm can be released to a buyer or transferee. A person must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a rifle or shotgun. To buy a handgun, a person must be at least 21 years of age, and either 1) possess an HSC plus successfully complete a safety demonstration with the handgun being purchased or 2) qualify for an HSC exemption.

As part of the DROS process, the buyer must present "clear evidence of identity and age" which is defined as a valid, non-expired California Driver's License or Identification Card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles. A military identification accompanied by permanent duty station orders indicating a posting in California is also acceptable.

If the buyer is not a U.S. Citizen, then he or she is required to demonstrate that he or she is legally within the United States by providing to the firearms dealer with documentation that contains his/her Alien Registration Number or I-94 Number.

Purchasers of handguns are also required to provide proof of California residency, such as a utility bill, residential lease, property deed, or government-issued identification (other than a drivers license or other DMV-issued identification).



Many dealers outside California don't know or understand California laws and don't want to deal with it. So they won't sell to Californians.

talbalos  [Member]
12/9/2005 4:46:48 AM
Somebody else can get the headache reading through the section:

caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=922



Section 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful -
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport
into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it
maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise
obtained by such person outside that State, except that this
paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires
a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other
than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or
receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to
purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not
apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in
conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall
not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any
State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
....
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
deliver -

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has
reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a
place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of
business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not
apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a
resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's
place of business is located if the transferee meets in person
with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale,
delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of
sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer
or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph,
in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual
knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both
States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a
firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
purposes;