To collapsable stock, or not to collasable stock? That and one other question.

Hey guys,

Right now I've got a Century Arms G3 clone. I've got the fixed (A2?) stock, and a Chote folding stock for it. I like being able to fold the stock to make the rifle shorter, but when unfolded, the chote has too long of a length of pull for me (doesn't bother me when shooting prone, or from a bench, but shooting on the move it's too long). The fixed stock feels great, but it's fixed. So I was wondering about the (A3?) retractable stocks? Is the length of pull the same as the fixed stock? Do they beat your face up when you shoot? Are they stable enough to shoot out to 300m-500m?

Second question: I'd like to use my rifle to shoot the heavy metal division in three gun, but the last match I shot the rifle wasn't accurate enough for the long range stage. I'm not sure how much of it was the rifle, and how much of it was the Tulammo crap I was using. We had to shoot 8" plates between 125-250m, with a bonus at 500m. It took me three magazines to hit two of the plates, before I bowed out of the stage. Is there a way to accurize this rifle? Would I be better off selling it and getting a PTR? Was it just the ammo? How picky ammo wise are the PTRs?

I plan to do some testing out to 300m (the furthest I can shoot at the public range) with different types of ammo to see how my current rifle does. I'm also in the process of getting .308 dies set up in the Dillon press I share with my old man. Maybe some hand loads will help out.

I would stick with the fixed stock no question. Century rifles are not very well made though, I'm sure the PTR will be much better quality and more accurate. Can you use optics in your match? If so I would mount a scope to it to improve your accuracy.

I don't have any trouble hitting an 8" plate at 200 yards with my 16" barreled cetme using a collapsible stock and a 2x Vortex red dot sight. I've been using 150 grain Tula .308 to break in the barrel on my cetme PSG1 clone and getting some 1/2" groups, so I doubt it's the ammo. I'd bet the heavy trigger pull is the majority of the problem, plus maybe some worn components in the BCG. Some Century cetmes have an unmarked locking piece (most are stamped with a "50") that is actually 60 degrees (left over modelo B parts) that kick hard and shoot erratic. Do some work to get a good trigger and see what happens.

The rifle shoots really softly. Is there anyway to check my BCG for correct fitment/parts/etc? Is there a way to work my trigger over at home for a better trigger pull?

Generally a soft shooter won't have any of the problems below, plus it'll have a good bolt gap:
Spot where the rollers come to rest when the bolt is locked:


Front of the windows in the bolt head:


Area where the skirt of the locking piece rests against the carrier (good one shown)


There are a few things you can do to the trigger components to reduce drag and increase the crispness of the let-off but if you aren't careful things can go bad fast. I wouldn't begin to tell someone what to do other than possibly send the lower to a professional (Bill Springfield?) and let them work it over. I have never used his services but people who have write highly of his work. Another thing you could consider is switching to a SA modified HK lower, it has more moving parts but can also be tuned by a professional.

Here's a write-up I did on the HK pack, I have a similar write-up on the cetme pack on other forums.
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-reference-library/146275-understanding-sa-modified-hk-trigger-pack.html

You never did say how the rifle shoots on paper at shorter ranges. What kind of groups are you getting at 50 and 100 yards?

I would say range time and the fixed stock is what you need. Heavy metal irons generally rock people if you aren't used to your diopiter sights. Get some more range time and get more comfortable with the rifle and where it is shooting. I think that will be a saving grace even if the rifle is poorly fitted and the ammo is crap you should be shooting better than 8 inch at 200 meters. I would also strongly suggest a williams set trigger for the longer shots it cleans up trigger pull nicely.

How does these look?

The sides of the locking piece don't matter, just the shoulder angles. Not a good focus on yours but doesn't appear to have a lot of wear. In fact, there doesn't appear to be too much wear on any of the parts. Interesting drag mark on the top of the HK91 bolt carrier, the dents at the end and the edge of the slot look suspiciously like hit marks from a weld burn through, did you weld a pic rail on top? Also surprising to see that they didn't mill the slot under the carrier to make it SA only. Maybe it's a replacement carrier? You should be good to go with those parts.

I did get talked into having a rail put on the top of the rifle. I'm not sure if I'm going to keep it or not. I'll have to see how much extra material is on the underside of the receiver.

I have the same Century animal, fixed stock. Like you, I looked at the collapsible stock, but ultimately decided against it mainly due to lack of cheek weld.

Do you shoot at Rio? I have shot mine there and can hit the 200 and 300 yrd gong with no problem. Haven't tried it in any kind of match though.

I am no expert, but depending on where you are, I can help with bolt gap etc. (I have learned a bit getting mine to run. )

I do shoot there. I don't have problems with the big gongs at the 200m and 300m berms. Those are 16-20" square though (if the range officer I talked to was correct). You know the little plates at the 200m berm? Those are more like what they had at the match.

It would be great to have the bolt gap checked. When I had the rifle redone, the smith said the bolt gap was fine. I doubt I've shot it enough to make a difference.

Look along the inside top of the receiver for a weld burn through something like this:

Yeah, the RO I asked said the ones at 200 are 12". I'm using irons only for now.

IM inbound if you need help.

To answer your original question, YES...collapse!

Why? Because they are cool. Also they piss off Diane Feinswine and harm children.

The fixed stock is so much better to shoot. Don't look as cool, but that is kind of besides the point.

Agree. Had a collapsible G3 stock on a CETME. It was not fun but it did look cool. Switched back to the polymer fixed and never looked back.

Thanks,

Don-S1

You just need one of each.

Have an A3 on both my HK93 and the MP5 and I find them to be comfortable for as much ammo as I can afford to shoot in one session. I haven't tried an A3 on a 91 though, but I've noticed most of the A3 stock complaints are from the .308 HK shooters.As a result, I expected some discomfort from the 93 but that has not been the case.

here are some options that may assist you. It's up to you what your willing to spend but I'll try to keep it at the least of the range, but with good professional service's.

Stock buffer in existing rear stock should be upgraded and/or re-placed. Less felt recoil allowing faster follow-up and reducing the shooters urge to flinch and/or jerk the trigger. Some of the buffer replacements will require fitting and/or modifying the existing stock but it can be done.
http://www.robertrtg.com/pcsheavybuffer.html
http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Enhanced-HK-Buffer-For-HK-German-MSG90-PSG1-114p1014.htm
http://triggerwork.net/hksbuffer.html

Replace existing stock buttpad with a heavy rubber buttpad. Less felt recoil allowing faster follow-up and reducing the shooters urge to flinch and/or jerk the trigger.
http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-US-Made-Heavy-Rubber-Buttpad-114p914.htm

Grip frame - If you have the cheap plastic grip frame that came with the weapon replace it with a steel and/or plastic H&K grip frame and/or one of their licensed subsidiaries grip frame. It will need to be clipped and pinned and there are many different vendors that can facilitate this request for about $56.00 total with shipping.
http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=9

Trigger work - Best in the business
Denny Williams - http://www.williamstriggers.com/page3.html

Hope this helps.

Bill Springfield should also be looked at if your wanting budget but great work have him do the stock buffer and the trigger it's priced the best. He can also do the buffer on the A3 collapsing stock which turns it from a face slapper to a gentle nudge.

did a little shooting at 100m and 200m today.

100m groups:



group in red is black hills 168gr match

Group in blue is 150gr UMC

Group in yellow is 150gr Herters steel cased.



this group was 168gr Federal Gold Match.


I forgot to take pictures of my 200m group.

Herters opened up to about 8"

UMC was about 4" (might not be able to reproduce that group)

and the federal gold match was about a 14"-16" group.

The rifle was also shooting about 8" -12" to the right. I was able to sight it in to roughly where it needs to be at 200m.


thanks for the links. I'll have to check them out. I haven't thought about the buffers. I don't have a flinch, but fast follow up shots might be nice.

Do these groups look appropriate for the rifle?

This question is kind of like the one where the wife asks "does this make me look fat?". There is no good way to answer without sounding like an ass. Truthfully? Those are terrible. Not to be mean, but I've rebarrelled rifles that shot better groups. In fact I have one in my shop now I'm getting ready to pull the barrel off of because it shot this group:

You don't sound like an ass at all. That was the question. I've been doubting the accuracy of this rifle for a while. I'm not sure now if I should put any money into it, or just start over with a PTR, or an AR 10 pattern.

Irons or scope?
You mentioned you had a rail earlier.

Iron sights

Ruh roh

Have you checked the bore thoroughly? They have been known to drill through bore to mount the loundener. My loundener was bored at an angle, and the bullet was striking it on the way out..

Good point. Lots of stuff can go wrong. The group I posted in my response was actually 35% better than the one shot before it using a 50 degree locking piece.

First off the triggers on these rifles are terrible. They are intentionally long hard pulls for military use. You could do yourself a service by either working it up yourself or sending it to one of the two trigger pack guru's Bill Springfield is one, I can't remember the name of the other one but someone will chime in.

You already tried different ammo with similar results.

Your sighting system plays a large part as BAP pointed out, I didn't used to put much stock in the expensive vs. cheap scope thing but I'm starting to become a believer. I put a Millett TRS1 on my PSG1clone and fell in love while sighting it in.

Another thing that comes up a lot with Century Cetmes is the muzzle brakes they used actually are so far off center that they allow the bullet to strike the lip of the brake on the way out.

No brake. It has a factory flash hider.

this thread ain't dead yet..

You may have done this already regarding accuracy and not to diss your skills but...
Sandbagged?
Another shooter try it?
Same results?

I shot the groups from sand bags on a bench. I repeated the groups three times each. I didn't have anyone else try to reproduce the results. I'd like to think I'm a pretty decent shot with a rifle, though I'm no expert.

Here's a group from my savage at 100m:



Of course it's a different animal (10x scope), but I just wanted to illustrate that I can drive a rifle pretty decently. I was hoping for 2-3MOA out of the G3. Not the 4-6MOA that I'm getting.

Nice group from your savage.

Not sure what to say or offer now...you mentioned you were 8-10 or so off at 100, have you checked for canted front sight? Mine was canted amongst other problems.
Although, this shouldn't affect groups.

the front sight was canted, but I had the smith fix it. I think it might be about time to give up on the rifle and hunt for something else.

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