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NEW (to me) M1 Carbine. What do I have here? UPDATE - Blued finish could be accurate?
11/21/2011 1:47:20 PM
So my somewhat liberal boss overheard me talking to a coworker about guns, and out of nowehere he comes over and says "sounds like you know what you are talking about...you wanna buy my M1 carbine?"
I figured since he bought it during the 70s it would be a Universal, and really beat up...But I took a look and inspected it this morning...I was wrong thank god...
1943 Standard Products M1 Carbine. Early configuration...No import marks anywhere (It was bought in the 70s, so I didn't think there would be any import marks).
Early style flip site
No bayo lug
Marlin barrel, which makes sense, since Standard didn't make their own barrels (no import marks either!)
Stock is in near 100% condition
Finish looks like 90%...not sure if it was re-blued or not.
No rust, except for a very little bit of discoloration around the front site
Bore was a little dirty, but no rust or pitting at all...a few patches will take care of that.
Came with a 30 round mag, and 30 rounds of brass .30 carbine ammo
$625. $450
The strange thing - even though it is an early configuration, it DOES have a flip-style safety (not the push button safety)...which leads me to think that it WAS rebuilt at some point during WWII or Korea.
I will have to take it apart and look for more markings to see if the parts match or not...Will post pics ASAP...probably tomorrow night.
I figured since he bought it during the 70s it would be a Universal, and really beat up...But I took a look and inspected it this morning...I was wrong thank god...
1943 Standard Products M1 Carbine. Early configuration...No import marks anywhere (It was bought in the 70s, so I didn't think there would be any import marks).
Early style flip site
No bayo lug
Marlin barrel, which makes sense, since Standard didn't make their own barrels (no import marks either!)
Stock is in near 100% condition
Finish looks like 90%...not sure if it was re-blued or not.
No rust, except for a very little bit of discoloration around the front site
Bore was a little dirty, but no rust or pitting at all...a few patches will take care of that.
Came with a 30 round mag, and 30 rounds of brass .30 carbine ammo
$625. $450
The strange thing - even though it is an early configuration, it DOES have a flip-style safety (not the push button safety)...which leads me to think that it WAS rebuilt at some point during WWII or Korea.
I will have to take it apart and look for more markings to see if the parts match or not...Will post pics ASAP...probably tomorrow night.
11/21/2011 2:14:20 PM
Carbines are a fascinating and extremely complex subject. You can find almost anything in carbines if you look long enough. The later style safety with the early sight is a curious combination. What type mag catch does it have. Plain or stamped with an M or M? Any stock markings? Lack of import marks would suggest an old CMP/DCM gun. DCM did release a lot of them back in the sixties.
A carbine that never went thru rebuild would be rare indeed. But it could have been a unit rebuild rather than a full arsenal rework.
Definitely a good price. It's hard find Inland rebuilds for that kind of money.
A carbine that never went thru rebuild would be rare indeed. But it could have been a unit rebuild rather than a full arsenal rework.
Definitely a good price. It's hard find Inland rebuilds for that kind of money.
11/21/2011 3:24:46 PM
Originally Posted By Ameshawki:
Carbines are a fascinating and extremely complex subject. You can find almost anything in carbines if you look long enough. The later style safety with the early sight is a curious combination. What type mag catch does it have. Plain or stamped with an M or M? Any stock markings? Lack of import marks would suggest an old CMP/DCM gun. DCM did release a lot of them back in the sixties.
A carbine that never went thru rebuild would be rare indeed. But it could have been a unit rebuild rather than a full arsenal rework.
Definitely a good price. It's hard find Inland rebuilds for that kind of money.
Carbines are a fascinating and extremely complex subject. You can find almost anything in carbines if you look long enough. The later style safety with the early sight is a curious combination. What type mag catch does it have. Plain or stamped with an M or M? Any stock markings? Lack of import marks would suggest an old CMP/DCM gun. DCM did release a lot of them back in the sixties.
A carbine that never went thru rebuild would be rare indeed. But it could have been a unit rebuild rather than a full arsenal rework.
Definitely a good price. It's hard find Inland rebuilds for that kind of money.
The mag catch does have an "M" I believe...not sure about the M though...will check asap.
How did I do? OK?
11/21/2011 3:41:55 PM
Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:
The mag catch does have an "M" I believe...not sure about the M though...will check asap.
How did I do? OK?
Originally Posted By Ameshawki:
Carbines are a fascinating and extremely complex subject. You can find almost anything in carbines if you look long enough. The later style safety with the early sight is a curious combination. What type mag catch does it have. Plain or stamped with an M or M? Any stock markings? Lack of import marks would suggest an old CMP/DCorM gun. DCM did release a lot of them back in the sixties.
A carbine that never went thru rebuild would be rare indeed. But it could have been a unit rebuild rather than a full arsenal rework.
Definitely a good price. It's hard find Inland rebuilds for that kind of money.
Carbines are a fascinating and extremely complex subject. You can find almost anything in carbines if you look long enough. The later style safety with the early sight is a curious combination. What type mag catch does it have. Plain or stamped with an M or M? Any stock markings? Lack of import marks would suggest an old CMP/DCorM gun. DCM did release a lot of them back in the sixties.
A carbine that never went thru rebuild would be rare indeed. But it could have been a unit rebuild rather than a full arsenal rework.
Definitely a good price. It's hard find Inland rebuilds for that kind of money.
The mag catch does have an "M" I believe...not sure about the M though...will check asap.
How did I do? OK?
The M is the second style mag catch. Don't have my book handy at the moment so I'm not sure when that one kicked in. For $625 you did good. Real good.
11/22/2011 9:53:51 AM
Ok a few things...the mag catch has an underlined M...so a new version. The safety is the newer switch style...but the site is the older style flip site.
So I assume these changes were done in the 70s since it hasn't been touched since.
The stock is in 95% condition because it may have been refinished...there are no marks anywhere on it to denote the maker. Not on the underside of the grip or in the sling notch... must have been done in the 70s too...
Or do some stocks have no markings?
I will take it apart this weekend to inspect more.
So I assume these changes were done in the 70s since it hasn't been touched since.
The stock is in 95% condition because it may have been refinished...there are no marks anywhere on it to denote the maker. Not on the underside of the grip or in the sling notch... must have been done in the 70s too...
Or do some stocks have no markings?
I will take it apart this weekend to inspect more.
11/22/2011 10:17:37 AM
Most likely a post WWII rebuild. The lack of stock cartouches suggests a replacement stock. Both the safety and mag catch are later pattern. The lack of bayonet lug and retention of the flip sight is unusual, but with carbines you expect the unusual. It's possible a prior owner tried back dating the carbine to original configuration. That was a huge fad a few years ago.
With 6,000,000 produced by eleven manufacturers plus hundreds of subcontractors plus the post war rebuild project (done by several arsenals and private contractors), carbines can be all over the spectrum.
With 6,000,000 produced by eleven manufacturers plus hundreds of subcontractors plus the post war rebuild project (done by several arsenals and private contractors), carbines can be all over the spectrum.
11/22/2011 2:21:01 PM
Originally Posted By Ameshawki:
Most likely a post WWII rebuild. The lack of stock cartouches suggests a replacement stock. Both the safety and mag catch are later pattern. The lack of bayonet lug and retention of the flip sight is unusual, but with carbines you expect the unusual. It's possible a prior owner tried back dating the carbine to original configuration. That was a huge fad a few years ago.
With 6,000,000 produced by eleven manufacturers plus hundreds of subcontractors plus the post war rebuild project (done by several arsenals and private contractors), carbines can be all over the spectrum.
Most likely a post WWII rebuild. The lack of stock cartouches suggests a replacement stock. Both the safety and mag catch are later pattern. The lack of bayonet lug and retention of the flip sight is unusual, but with carbines you expect the unusual. It's possible a prior owner tried back dating the carbine to original configuration. That was a huge fad a few years ago.
With 6,000,000 produced by eleven manufacturers plus hundreds of subcontractors plus the post war rebuild project (done by several arsenals and private contractors), carbines can be all over the spectrum.
Thanks for the info...However, this gun hasn't been TOUCHED since the early 70s. For some reaosn, I don't see someone in the late 60s early 70s trying to back-date a WWII carbine...now restoring the stock, I can see.
Is there a chance this carbine was updated with the new style safety and mag catch by a field armorer during WWII? And never changed since? I assume the mag catch and safety were the 2 easiest updates to make...the new barrel band/bayo lug, and rear site, were probably a little harder. I don't know though.
Oh - it has a flat bolt as well.
The lack of a manufacturer marking in the sling cut, or anywhere else on the stock, is strange...The stock could definitely have been redone.
I am going to try and take her apart this weekend to inspect the other parts...see what is matching and what isn't. Standard Products should be on a total of 4 parts...receiver, trigger housing, recoil plate, and bolt? I need to read up.
11/22/2011 6:24:02 PM
That is a great price for a rifle with those early parts. You did well.
11/22/2011 6:58:02 PM
THIS THREAD IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT PICS
Please post pics of your new carbine.
....if possible, DO NOT post pics of the Liberal boss
.
Please post pics of your new carbine.
....if possible, DO NOT post pics of the Liberal boss
.
11/22/2011 11:41:59 PM
Originally Posted By Derek45:
THIS THREAD IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT PICS
Please post pics of your new carbine.
....if possible, DO NOT post pics of the Liberal boss
.
THIS THREAD IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT PICS
Please post pics of your new carbine.
....if possible, DO NOT post pics of the Liberal boss
.
Hahaha...Will post pics later this week!
11/23/2011 12:09:22 AM
11/23/2011 2:55:41 PM
"War Baby! The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbine, Vol. 1" by Larry L. Ruth is probably the most in-depth, detailed and authoritative book on the M1 Carbine, I highly recommend it.
By the way, Marlin, a gun company, sucked at making barrels while Underwood, a typewriter company, made the best barrels. This according to periodic DoD inspections during the war, as spelled out in the above book.
Don't freak, though... crappy barrels were rejected or fixed, not assembled to a carbine and sent to a hapless G.I.
Any M1 Carbine for $625 is a great deal. A less-common Standard Products M1 for that price is a super deal. And getting it in such great condition for that price is almost like stealing it.
By the way, Marlin, a gun company, sucked at making barrels while Underwood, a typewriter company, made the best barrels. This according to periodic DoD inspections during the war, as spelled out in the above book.
Don't freak, though... crappy barrels were rejected or fixed, not assembled to a carbine and sent to a hapless G.I.
Any M1 Carbine for $625 is a great deal. A less-common Standard Products M1 for that price is a super deal. And getting it in such great condition for that price is almost like stealing it.
11/25/2011 11:18:08 AM
OK took her apart last night to clean and oil everything...great shape internally...and all of the internals (trigger group, recoil plate, receiver etc.) were all matching, and marked with Standard Products markings.
Pics as promised...
1943 Standard Products on top, and my excellent quality commercial Springfield M1 Carbine on bottom (new forged receiver and new barrel, and all Inland parts).
Marlin barrel, in great shape, and "N" marked front site...which is correct for Std. Products carbines.
Rear flip site marked "S"...which doesn't mean Standard Products...I think all the rear flips were marked "S".
Looks like the stock was definitely refished in the 60s or 70s...someone took off the markings in the sling cut out...explains why it is in such great shape (even if it did sit in a closet since the 70s, it should still have some wear and tear from service in WWII)...oh well...still happy.
But - the stock and top handguard are correct otherwise...both marked internally with S-HB...or Hillerich & Bradsby Co., Louisville, KY...correct for Standard Products carbines.
Now to take her out and see how she shoots...range report later.
Pics as promised...
1943 Standard Products on top, and my excellent quality commercial Springfield M1 Carbine on bottom (new forged receiver and new barrel, and all Inland parts).
Marlin barrel, in great shape, and "N" marked front site...which is correct for Std. Products carbines.
Rear flip site marked "S"...which doesn't mean Standard Products...I think all the rear flips were marked "S".
Looks like the stock was definitely refished in the 60s or 70s...someone took off the markings in the sling cut out...explains why it is in such great shape (even if it did sit in a closet since the 70s, it should still have some wear and tear from service in WWII)...oh well...still happy.
But - the stock and top handguard are correct otherwise...both marked internally with S-HB...or Hillerich & Bradsby Co., Louisville, KY...correct for Standard Products carbines.
Now to take her out and see how she shoots...range report later.
11/28/2011 3:48:31 PM
Range report...
Shoots flawlessly. No malfunctions with the 30 round mags, or the 15 round mags.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOtf0PVBXxw
Getting great groups too...
5 shots at 25 yards (because I had no idea where this thing would be shooting) - 4 of them touching, one through the same hole as another.
5 shots at And 50 yards...
Crappy cell phone pic:
I think I did well for $625. $450
Shoots flawlessly. No malfunctions with the 30 round mags, or the 15 round mags.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOtf0PVBXxw
Getting great groups too...
5 shots at 25 yards (because I had no idea where this thing would be shooting) - 4 of them touching, one through the same hole as another.
5 shots at And 50 yards...
Crappy cell phone pic:
I think I did well for $625. $450
11/28/2011 4:51:10 PM
Is it blued?
11/28/2011 5:04:02 PM
Originally Posted By Cuppednlocked:
Is it blued?
Is it blued?
Yes it appears to be blued...which is leading me to believe that it is a Bavarian (German or Austrian) police carbine...many of those were blued, with refinished stocks, early flip site and early barrel band...but late style flip safety and late M marked mag catch...
It hasn't been TOUCHED since the 1970s, and I don't see someone in the 70s trying to "backdate" or correct an M1 with the early flip site or early barrel band...
All correct internal parts, correct stock (according to markings on inside of stock), correct barrel (Marlin)...but no import marks on barrel so it may not be a Bavarian ...even though some weren't stamped.
So I am not sure what I have...But it shoots and looks great...
11/28/2011 6:02:41 PM
Looks good to me and she appears to be quite accurate. 
11/28/2011 7:46:50 PM
I doubt seriously if it is a Bavarian/Austrian Carbine. They generally stamped the last four serial numbers on the stock and other main components of the Carbine. It looks to have been blued by a previous private owner. Not an arsenal refinish. The previous owner could have easily switched out the safety etc............. It is not a highwood stock so I doubt it is original to the Carbine. It is very pretty and shoots great. You did well but a lot of the collector value was destroyed when it was blued. Enjoy your new toy.................
11/28/2011 8:27:21 PM
The stock appears to be an M2 "pot belly" stock. Meaning a post WW2 stock. They are not stamped in the sling well with the makers initials as were the WW2 stocks. Some of them may be stamped next to the barrel channel near the barrel band.
The carbine can always be reparked if one wanted to make it more "original". But again, as stated before, all collector value is already gone.
The carbine can always be reparked if one wanted to make it more "original". But again, as stated before, all collector value is already gone.
11/29/2011 11:05:35 AM
Well since the stock has been refinished, and the parts blued, I got the price down to $450 total...with the two USGI 30 round mags...So NOW I think I did pretty well.
It should prove to be a lot of fun, and even if it is blued, it is still a real 1943 carbine, probably carried in WWII. So it still holds collectors value for me!
It should prove to be a lot of fun, and even if it is blued, it is still a real 1943 carbine, probably carried in WWII. So it still holds collectors value for me!
12/1/2011 2:50:40 PM
Well...after more research...on the CMP forums...seems that a lot of M1 carbines and carbine parts were indeed originally BLUED from the factory. Supposedly, a lot of the early 1943 M1 carbines were ALL BLUED.
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=31612
Not saying my M1 has an original early blued finish, but it isn't "innaccurate" according to the CMP experts...
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=31612
The early carbines were all blued. Later ones had more of the darker tint parkerizing on them. All WW2 bolts were blued none were parkerized until they went through a rebuild. Most small parts were blued with some hammers that were also left in the white. Harrisons book is now so out dated that it is almost useless. You would be much better off gettting one of the newer books out like Craig Riesch's M1 Carbines WarTime Production 6th edition. He has tried to update each edition with the newest data. There are still some errors in all reference books on the carbine but Harrisons is the loaded with errors and information that has been proven wrong.
Whether a carbine part was blued, parkerized (actually phosphate coated) or left without finish depends on when the part was made and who made the part. Parts like triggers, magazine catches, hammers, safeties, sears, etc were both parkerized and blued. For the other parts, the earlier the carbine the more likely it is that more parts would have been blued. Small parts like the various pins were generally always blued but there are some that were parkerized or left without a finish.
Bolts were always blued, no exceptions there. A parkerized bolt is a sure sign of a refinish. Some Saginaw Gear bolts look like they are parkerized but they are blued. They tend to be an odd shade, not the deep blue or black color most associate with a blued part.
The green tint of some carbine parts comes from the post phosphate coating rinse.
Bolts were always blued, no exceptions there. A parkerized bolt is a sure sign of a refinish. Some Saginaw Gear bolts look like they are parkerized but they are blued. They tend to be an odd shade, not the deep blue or black color most associate with a blued part.
The green tint of some carbine parts comes from the post phosphate coating rinse.
Not saying my M1 has an original early blued finish, but it isn't "innaccurate" according to the CMP experts...
12/1/2011 5:03:38 PM
Also for what it is worth General of the Army Douglas MacArthur Honor Guard had blued M1 carbines. That was stated in a book I have. He was saying be careful of what you know is correct, as he had a blued one that was one of the honor guards guns parkerized, be cause he know the blued one was wrong.....
12/1/2011 5:25:06 PM
Originally Posted By tankdriver:
Also for what it is worth General of the Army Douglas MacArthur Honor Guard had blued M1 carbines. That was stated in a book I have. He was saying be careful of what you know is correct, as he had a blued one that was one of the honor guards guns parkerized, be cause he know the blued one was wrong.....
Also for what it is worth General of the Army Douglas MacArthur Honor Guard had blued M1 carbines. That was stated in a book I have. He was saying be careful of what you know is correct, as he had a blued one that was one of the honor guards guns parkerized, be cause he know the blued one was wrong.....
Haha...do we know what the make and serial numbers were for MacArthur's M1s? That would be a nice surprise.
12/1/2011 5:57:29 PM
A lot of the edges on your gun look 'soft', so I think yours is most certainly a post war bluing job by a gunsmith. A lot of GIs did this sort of thing to their bring back guns, whether they were carbines, 1911s, lugers, K98s, etc. Still a cool piece, but that gun is far from the original blued finish. They were never that polished.
12/15/2011 11:15:03 PM
No way that is an original finish, gunsmith reblue. Nice gun though for the price.
12/16/2011 7:40:31 PM
Originally Posted By Sailormilan2:
The stock appears to be an M2 "pot belly" stock. Meaning a post WW2 stock. They are not stamped in the sling well with the makers initials as were the WW2 stocks. Some of them may be stamped next to the barrel channel near the barrel band.
The carbine can always be reparked if one wanted to make it more "original". But again, as stated before, all collector value is already gone.
The stock appears to be an M2 "pot belly" stock. Meaning a post WW2 stock. They are not stamped in the sling well with the makers initials as were the WW2 stocks. Some of them may be stamped next to the barrel channel near the barrel band.
The carbine can always be reparked if one wanted to make it more "original". But again, as stated before, all collector value is already gone.
Yeah, M2 stock. Beside the "pot belly" it has the slot for an M2 on the left side of the receiver. Many post WWII arsenal rebuilds ended up with M2 stocks. Nice rifle though.
12/17/2011 6:06:51 PM
Thanks for the comments all...I am pretty happy with it.
The guys over at the CMP forums say it is worth over $1,000, whether it was restored or reblued or not...since it is in such great shape, has early parts, was made in 1943, and is a rarer Standard Products carbine.
The guys over at the CMP forums say it is worth over $1,000, whether it was restored or reblued or not...since it is in such great shape, has early parts, was made in 1943, and is a rarer Standard Products carbine.
12/18/2011 6:13:30 PM
Its been polished and blued
