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 Magpul MOE grip=No Go on Sage EBR stock! Now with pictures! (For Msut10)
Milo5  [Member]
6/4/2009 10:51:25 AM
Started to play around with my SAGE Industries EBR stock.
First alteration is to get rid of the TangoDown pistol grip.
They are good grips that absolutely do not fit my hand well so off it goes.
Secured with a standard mil-spec, (Go figure.), 1/4"X28 hex head cap screw, the TangoDown grip is easily removed.
I had wanted to add a Magpul MOE grip, I use these on several rifles, they fit my hand well and I like the grip.
Unfortunately, the rear machining on the SAGE stock isn't the same as the M16 and when the grip is aligned and tightened, this happens.

Big time gap, and this will occur with any grip using a rear web, Ergo, MIAD, etc.

Your options?
Any grip that does not include a rear web, OEM TangoDown, Falcon Battlegrip, TAPCO SAW grip, etc.
I went with an old standby;

I know, archaic, but the A2 grip fits my hand well and will work better for me until I come up with something better, TAPCO SAW grip maybe,,,

Another little point of interest,
My Sage EBR came with a mil-spec M4 collapser stock marked SCAR CQB.
I am not sure if these parts are subcontracted from FN-USA but the stock is the usual, rattly M4 configuration, ho-hum.
This stock will be replaced with a Mil-Spec Magpul CTR, when I can find one, all my on hand stuff not being used is commercial diameter.


The extension tube is a different story, well machined, well finished and five position. More later.
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H2O_MAN  [Team Member]
6/4/2009 11:05:33 AM
I'm fairly certain the Magpul MIAD with the smallest back strap will fit.
Milo5  [Member]
6/4/2009 11:10:01 AM
It may very well, I don't have one here to try out.
I do like the idea of some storage space.
Right now I am leaning hard towards the TAPCO SAW grip.

You do mean the plain flat backstrap on the MIAD grip right?
Milo5  [Member]
6/4/2009 1:06:06 PM
Here is the rifle as the beginning platform.


And here is the stripped barrelled action ready for reassembly.
SilentREAPER  [Member]
6/4/2009 1:10:52 PM
Milo5
How about a dremmel, a little patience, and some ingenuity.
I bet if you take you time, and don't remove to much material
that grip could fit.
H2O_MAN  [Team Member]
6/4/2009 1:14:48 PM
Originally Posted By SilentREAPER:
Milo5
How about a dremmel, a little patience, and some ingenuity.
I bet if you take you time, and don't remove to much material
that grip could fit.


True, I've seen it done on AR-10s
Milo5  [Member]
6/4/2009 1:26:42 PM
My buddy came through, he is going to bring a MIAD kit and a Tapco SAW grip over to try out.
We'll see how these work first, I'll slap some pics up when this happens.
Milo5  [Member]
6/4/2009 1:40:29 PM
You will be removing the factory or currently installed operating rod guide and using the one included with the Sage stock.
If you have an investment cast Spring Inc. op rod guide on your rifle, you won't miss it and are probably best served by cutting it off with a Dremel tool and a cut-off wheel.
Use a 5/32" roll pin punch to knock out the roll pin, a conventional punch should also work but may tear up the roll pin.
I am a tool whore so I have roll pin punches from brownells and some I turned while I was still working,(laid off right now, hence the time to play with my own stuff for a change!).
Mine had a USGI op rod guide and I ain't about to trash this puppy, the roll pin was tapped out and the guide was prompted off the barrel with some "gentle" tapping using a 16 ounce brass hammer.
Don't use a steel hammer to do this, you can beat up and deform the guide using steel on steel.

Unitized Gas Cylinder assembly?
FUGGITABOUTIT!!!!!
You won't be using one of these on this build either.
You won't need the advantages it provides anyway because the Sage stock doesn't come in contact with the gas system anyway. Nice!
BigHat  [Member]
6/4/2009 2:30:25 PM
Are there installation guides included with the SAGE EBR stocks or is this something one just needs to work through on their own?

Mil05,
Appreciate your discussion on removing the operating rod guide. SilentREAPER alluded to it a bit in another thread but I was unaware of what was replaced with the SAGE and what needed to be carried over.

Rifle arrives tonight (stock SOCOM 16) and the EBR stock comes tomorrow so I need to get smarter fast. I do have a few fairly comprehensive disassembly guides that will hopefully be of use.

One of you EBR experts ought to make a You Tube video on this.
Milo5  [Member]
6/4/2009 2:36:25 PM
There are instructions included with the stock.
My set had the pages stapled together not in order so a merry five minutes was spent pulling them apart and figuring out the correct course of events.
Hokie2000  [Member]
6/4/2009 3:09:47 PM
Hi BigHat,

Not to hijack the thread but I've been toying around with the idea of getting the Sage EBR stock for my Socom16 but wasn't sure how it would look. Could you post a few pics of it when you're done?

Also thanks Mil05 for posting the pics.

Thanks!

Originally Posted By BigHat:
Are there installation guides included with the SAGE EBR stocks or is this something one just needs to work through on their own?

Mil05,
Appreciate your discussion on removing the operating rod guide. SilentREAPER alluded to it a bit in another thread but I was unaware of what was replaced with the SAGE and what needed to be carried over.

Rifle arrives tonight (stock SOCOM 16) and the EBR stock comes tomorrow so I need to get smarter fast. I do have a few fairly comprehensive disassembly guides that will hopefully be of use.

One of you EBR experts ought to make a You Tube video on this.


SilentREAPER  [Member]
6/4/2009 3:19:04 PM
Bighat
The directions that come with the Sage will help, but mine
were also stapled in the wrong order. No biggie. take your time
it's not that hard. As i said before taking the Springfield factory
op rod guide block is the hardests part. Tha Sage has its own
op rod guide block that must be installed corectly. RED DOT FACING
THE MUZZLE. I would strongly suggest just cutting the factory
op rod guide off. It is by all means the easiest way. It took about a
minute. Check your P.M. and you can see how to get a hold of me,
if you have any problems I'll help you out.
Milo5  [Member]
6/4/2009 4:41:33 PM
Sage operating rod guide in place.

Pictured is left side view, muzzle towards the left.
If the red mark isn't present on the guide, just remember the larger cap screw holes face towards the muzzle.
While Sage says it isn't neccessary, I went ahead and installed a 5/32"X1/2" stainless steel roll pin to center the op rod guide and keep it from shifting while the cap screws are tightened down.
I learned something from doing this and when I come up with a fix, I'll post it.
More later.
SilentREAPER  [Member]
6/4/2009 4:49:19 PM
So far so good
TheAmaazingCarl  [Team Member]
6/4/2009 7:35:49 PM
Sage installation isn't all that difficult, just a bit time consuming.

An easy to overlook part is the tiny set screw at the end of the top rail. Apparently screwing the operating rod guide into the chassis has the effect of transferring most of the vibration when firing to the operating rod (bad), the little screw is there to relieve stress on the op rod. umm.... or so I have been told
H2O_MAN  [Team Member]
6/4/2009 7:40:13 PM
Originally Posted By TheAmaazingCarl:
Sage installation isn't all that difficult, just a bit time consuming.

An easy to overlook part is the tiny set screw at the end of the top rail. Apparently screwing the operating rod guide into the chassis has the effect of transferring most of the vibration when firing to the operating rod (bad), the little screw is there to relieve stress on the op rod. umm.... or so I have been told


Umm... nope.
TheAmaazingCarl  [Team Member]
6/4/2009 8:09:37 PM
Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:
Originally Posted By TheAmaazingCarl:
Sage installation isn't all that difficult, just a bit time consuming.

An easy to overlook part is the tiny set screw at the end of the top rail. Apparently screwing the operating rod guide into the chassis has the effect of transferring most of the vibration when firing to the operating rod (bad), the little screw is there to relieve stress on the op rod. umm.... or so I have been told


Umm... nope.


well.............? come on man, don't leave me hanging, I must know.
Milo5  [Member]
6/4/2009 8:25:29 PM
Ummm nope.
The op rod guide cross pin slot was drilled too far forward on the barrel.
The op rod guide wasn't lining up with the screw holes, it was about .010" too far forward.
I have always suspected this and now know it is fact.
Rather than driving the roll pin back out and reseating the op rod guide farther back, I elected to punch the stock screw through holes out using an N size letter drill.
This won't hurt anything as the trigger group holds the action to the rear and the bottom screw holds the barrel down against the stock.
The barrel is now essentially free floating in the stock assembly, very nice!
Stock is in place, handguard is in place but I have naturally lost one of the handguard securing screws somewhere on the bench or floor.

Tomarrow I will align and install the new gas cylinder and the Surefire quick disconnect adapter/flash suppressor.
The instructions say there are six 10X24X1/2" socket head screws to tighten on the handguard and they should be tightened to 65 inch pounds of torque.
There are actually FIVE 10X24X1/2" screws and that one little center screw at the front of the handguard.
I elected to tighten the five socket screws to 65 inch pounds and left the center screw up and not contacting the barrel.
Initially I thought this screw could be used to force the barrel back and down which would center the op rod guide in the screw holes, nope, screwing it down to contact the barrel and turning hard didn't do anything, so I backed it off.
Norecoil1  [Team Member]
6/5/2009 9:41:44 AM
Well what the heck is that screw for? I left mine about half way down and not touching anything.
Milo5  [Member]
6/5/2009 10:06:15 AM
It would be my guess that screw is there to allow absolute levelling of the handguard.
With the weapon fixtured and levelled at the receiver, you can install the handguard and using the center screw and a cross level.
you can absolutely level the handguard.
I am going to try this once everything is installed to my liking.
SilentREAPER  [Member]
6/5/2009 11:15:30 AM
The screw is there to tune for accuracy, you may or may not
need to use it. It is used to put forward pressure on the barrel,
like if you were getting a vertical string in your groups as the
barrel was getting hot. Barrel tension
Milo5  [Member]
6/5/2009 1:53:12 PM
That too.
If I let the barrel get that hot target shooting, I will be doing something wrong.
If I was a spec-op guy and need to shoot so many folks the barrel gets that hot, I'm a thinking I won't be caring about a bit of vertical stringing!
It is interesting that they added the feature, nice touch, but somewhat unneccessary for the intended use of the stock assembly.

I have the issues worked out I was encountering yesterday and made some upgrades.
Tried a Magpul MIAD grip and a Tapco SAW grip too.

I'll get some more pictures up a little later this aftrenoon.
SilentREAPER  [Member]
6/5/2009 2:20:59 PM
COOL
Looking forward to seeing it
Milo5  [Member]
6/5/2009 3:24:46 PM
OK, In order to resolve the operating rod guide to stock misalignment required me to repunch the three screw holes to a slightly larger dimension.
This was done with a K size letter dimension drill, pretty simple operation if you have drill press, vise, and vise pads so I am not going to elaborate in great deal here.
Once this was accomplished I remembered why I dislike dome head hex screws, weak bearing surface combined with irregular hex holes usually results in these screws stripping the hex head with repaeated use in fairly short order and this is exactly what happened with mine, on the fifth reassembly the hex head popped and no dimension hex or torque wrench was going to fit.
I had to cut a slot in the screw head using a Foredom tool with a cut-off wheel to make the first cut and then finish the slot with a screw slot file.
A heavy duty concave head driver and some gentle persuasion with a shop hammer allowed me to break the screw loose and remove it.
My friend the screw;

To resolve this issue, I replaced the dome head screws with full head 1/4"X28 hex head cap screws as seen at top of photo.
H2O_MAN  [Team Member]
6/5/2009 3:27:24 PM
Pinning the guide block is not necessary, the three screws supplied by SAGE hold everything in place.
Milo5  [Member]
6/5/2009 3:31:59 PM
Pinning the gas block ensures repeatability.
There is no possibility of the guide shifting on the barrel with continued stripping and reassembling of the rifle.
H2O_MAN  [Team Member]
6/5/2009 3:36:38 PM
No matter how many times you R&R the action, the guide can't move if it is held by the three large screws.
The receivers location is 100% repeatable making the location of the un-pinned barrel 100% repeatable.
Milo5  [Member]
6/5/2009 3:44:03 PM
With the stock issues resolved, I turned my attention back to the pistol grip.
My buddy dropped off a Magpul MIAD grip kit and a Tapco SAW grip to try out.
The Tapco fit my hand well but displayed more gap at the top than I want.
The Magpul MIAD looked hopeful using the flat backstrap and the flat front, I didn't really want the finger wedge on the front
Unfortunately when fully tightened to the stock the rear backstrap wants to flex away from the rest of the grip at the very top.
Even with the rollpin installed in the grip this still occurs.

Another issue concerns the front strap which on the Sage stock, has no support.

SIGH!,,,,,,
I was really hopeful to no satisfaction!
I can glue the front strap in place and relief fit the top of the grip or add a rubber buffer shim, more work needed here.
Milo5  [Member]
6/5/2009 3:46:39 PM
Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:
No matter how many times you R&R the action, the guide can't move if it is held by the three large screws.
The receivers location is 100% repeatable making the location of the un-pinned barrel 100% repeatable.


How are the three large screws going to prevent the operating rod guide from moving on the barrel when you remove those same three large screws from the guide to pull the action free from the stock??!!
The original USGI operating rod guides were pinned for the exact same reason.
Milo5  [Member]
6/5/2009 3:54:08 PM
Starting to come together;
H2O_MAN  [Team Member]
6/5/2009 4:15:53 PM
What's done is done, but keep in mind the original USGI operating rod guides are not secured to the stock by three large screws.

Thank you for the progress reports and pictures. I'm sure your range reports will be equally impressive.
Milo5  [Member]
6/5/2009 5:44:55 PM
Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:
What's done is done, but keep in mind the original USGI operating rod guides are not secured to the stock by three large screws.

Thank you for the progress reports and pictures. I'm sure your range reports will be equally impressive.


Exactly, the op rod guide is secured to the barrel with a roll pin in a standard stock set up.
The guide is also secured to the barrel with the roll pin in my Sage stock set-up AND is then secured to the stock with three screws.
This set-up pretty well eliminates the need for that pesky center screw we have been chatting about.
I am a hoping the additional work pays off on target.
SilentREAPER  [Member]
6/5/2009 8:09:38 PM
Looking good
SilentREAPER  [Member]
6/6/2009 12:21:50 AM
Waiting to hear back exactly how it was done,
I'm assuming a little dremmel work but I'll find out for ya.
If you look closely, and know the differences this Gentlemen
has 1 of the original 12 , MK14MOD1 Generation 1. That were
released to the public.
These are the rare ones.
Milo5  [Member]
6/6/2009 10:01:57 AM
Hopefully it was a Dremel and not Photoshoppe!
I can still see a bit of gap out at the top of his grip.
The CTR stock looks extremely odd on that extension tube!

Mine is together.
I am going to wander it down to the short range today for a get aquainted session.
If everything works right, I will try to get some finish pics up later today.
SilentREAPER  [Member]
6/6/2009 10:08:45 AM
Yes it is the result of light dremmel work.
The buffer tube is, and I cant remember the exact name,
Shock stock,? some kind of buffer that lessens felt recoil.
I'll try to find Exactly what it was
SilentREAPER  [Member]
6/6/2009 1:26:56 PM
Enidine shot stock
H2O_MAN  [Team Member]
6/6/2009 4:46:37 PM
Originally Posted By SilentREAPER:

The buffer tube is, and I cant remember the exact name,


The receiver extension tube on the rare 1st Generation Mod 1
stock is different from what is found on ALL Gen II Mod 1 stocks.

SilentREAPER  [Member]
6/6/2009 10:53:39 PM
Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:
Originally Posted By SilentREAPER:

The buffer tube is, and I cant remember the exact name,


The receiver extension tube on the rare 1st Generation Mod 1
stock is different from what is found on ALL Gen II Mod 1 stocks.



Yeah I know that. This one the owner put the enidine shot stock on it
Milo5  [Member]
6/6/2009 11:45:49 PM
Here is a picture of the gas system and flash suppressor.

Note no front band is present or needed, forget a unitized gas cylinder, it isn't needed.
I had to dig out a standard gas cylinder since all three of my rifles did have unitized gas cylinders.
Shims are used to align the gas cylinder with the gas port, my rifle required all that were included with the stock.
The flash suppressor is a new Surefire quick connect.

Here is the complete rifle.
For the "tacticool" lovers, I included a TangoDown QD stubby vertical foregrip.


The rifle shot as anticipated.
While there was no dramatic improvement, what did occur was a return to the level of accuracy the rifle was shooting to prior to the original fiberglass stock beginning to show signs of wear.
Another interesting sidenote was that the poa/poi sight adjustments did not change to any great degree.
One click on the windage had me centered on target at 100 meters.


What I have to do now is figure out what sort of shoulder sling I am going to use and whether I am going to put the fairly useless clip charger back in place or add a Sage picatinney section on the charger bridge.

Overall, this was an interesting and fun project. No regrets, and I hope the thread helps others who are interested in adding one of these stocks to their rifle.
TheAmaazingCarl  [Team Member]
6/7/2009 12:01:22 AM
Milo5  [Member]
6/7/2009 2:31:43 AM
For chuckles and yuks, here is the before front end with the SEI direct connect flash suppressor and unitized gas cylinder.

And here is the new set-up with the Surefire connector/suppressor, no stock ferrule again, for comparison.
SilentREAPER  [Member]
6/7/2009 8:41:25 AM
VERY NICE!
That is one of the great benefits of the Sage.
The bedding does'nt wear out.
80sgyrene  [Member]
6/7/2009 11:35:03 AM
I fitted a Miad using the largest backstrap, and the VFG front strap. A little patience and it looks great. I'll try and get some pics.
BigHat  [Member]
6/7/2009 12:26:30 PM
Originally Posted By Hokie2000:
Hi BigHat,

Not to hijack the thread but I've been toying around with the idea of getting the Sage EBR stock for my Socom16 but wasn't sure how it would look. Could you post a few pics of it when you're done?



I will be happy to post pics. Right now I'm just sizing up the project as I don't have any experience and want to get it right. I had most to tools Sage suggested aside from a flash supp. wrench. Ordered it and now aren't sure I even need it for the SOCOM 16. (opinions?) That said, I haven't really done much more than take the trigger group and actions out of the stock and read the directions and look through an Army M-14 manual, which might be both helping and hurting my understanding.

Glen (Silent Reaper) kindly offered to discuss it over the phone and I plan on taking him up on his offer.

Again, thanks to all for the info and pics–– very educational.

Great site, great folks.

80sgyrene  [Member]
6/7/2009 5:26:47 PM
As promised-


dfwgun  [Team Member]
6/7/2009 5:33:42 PM
I managed to modify a MOE grip to and AK.

For your project I would drop the MIAD and go with the MOE

Milo5  [Member]
6/7/2009 6:42:37 PM
See how the top of the backstrap is still pulling away, even in your pictures?
This is unacceptable to me.
The MOE grip alteration is a possibility but I don't want to chop one up and have a no-go with these grips as hard to obtain as they are right now.
80sgyrene  [Member]
6/7/2009 8:11:41 PM
The backstrap is not being forced away, That gap is on my ARs as well. I think the MIAD works better because of the VFG front strap that makes it look and handle perfect on the Sage stock.(keeps the fingers away from the trigger guard)
Milo5  [Member]
6/8/2009 8:35:02 AM
That gap has been what makes me shy away from the MIAD in favor of the MOE grip even on my AR15 rifles.
Since the MIAD was borrowed, I couldn't go chopping it up.
I am reasonably certain I can alter one to fit properly though.
I really like the MOE on the AKM and if I get a couple or three extras, I may play with that line of thinking.
Best part of owning a rifle is working out the glitches that come along!

Oh, again I ask, Is that CTR stock really Grey in color or is it Foliage Green and the lighting makes it look Grey????
80sgyrene  [Member]
6/8/2009 3:37:10 PM
Mine's Foliage Green,(not a CTR, a MOE)
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