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 Is the Garands clip feeding mechanism failure prone or a weak link in the design?
KnightofTheOldeCode  [Member]
9/11/2007 3:17:59 AM EST
Is the Garands clip feeding mechanism failure prone or a weak link in the design?


I know it makes the design unnecessarily complicated, in Boston's gun bible he claims it makes the gun more prone to failure. However I've need personally heard of a failure of this part of the gun. opinions? Thanks.
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seahawkdodge  [Member]
9/11/2007 5:08:18 AM EST
Well, in some ways it is a "weak link", but not in reliability. The biggest problem is the lack of a replaceable magazine, so it is impossible to do a tactical reload.

For you and me, as a shooter...no weak links. I kind of doubt you are doing three gun matches, or any kind of tactical courses with the M1...
racecar  [Member]
9/11/2007 6:27:11 AM EST
A little perspective is good here.

At the time it was an advanced rifle. Compared to later box fed rifles the enbloc has weaknesses.

This does not make it bad. Just not best.


JR
Napoleon_Tanerite  [Team Member]
9/11/2007 7:36:05 AM EST
i'd say it is one of the more likely areas to give the shooter troubles... just reference all the posts on here (usually one per week or so) about "i just got my garand, and it ejects the clip with 3 or 4 rounds left"

That said, it was far and away one of the most advanced designs of the 30's and remained so until probably toward the end of the war. I'd say the Mp44 was really the first firearm to surpass the Garand in terms of technological advance in a main battle arm, granted the Mp44 was more of a primitive assault rifle.

Of course the Garand isn't the most advanced rifle today, it's been around for 70 years, but the fact that it's still so popular is strong testimony to it's inherent design excellence.
30Caliber  [Member]
9/11/2007 7:56:38 AM EST
It held more rounds than any other rifle of it's day and reloads faster than any rifle currently fielded.

Garands sometimes have problems because they've been used in two plus major wars, not because the design is overly complicated.

IMHO, the "tactical reload" arguement applies to games and competition only. If 8rds of 30-06 doesn't do the trick, then it's Darwin's turn at bat, and rightly so.

Ty
M1-Ed  [Team Member]
9/11/2007 10:01:17 AM EST
I have had the pleasure of owning two M1 Garands in my time. I have put several thousand rounds through both.

I have never had a clip eject with 3 or 4 rounds still in them. And the only problems I have ever had with any M1 clips feeding, is when I did not seat one or more rounds flush. In those case's I would drop that clip and grab another. Which I believe most people do with any clip, be it an M1 or AR.

And as for "Tactical Reloading" the Garand. As soon as I hear that clip go "cling", I think I can dump another one in faster than most can pop a 30 rounder up an AR.

Also as for topping of a clip or dropping a partial clip for a full one. There is a little thingie on the left and side of the receiver (let's call this the "Clip Latch"). What you do is pull back on the "Operating Rod" which opens the "BOLT" exposing the partially filled clip. Next you push on the "Clip Latch". And CLINGG. The clip is ejected and you can pop in a fresh one.
<<<---------CLIP LATCH

As for the reliability of Garands. I have fired several hundred rounds in them and put them away without cleaning. Than taken them back out at some later date and shot another crap load of ammo through them. Without any misfires. A lot of weapons would have problems with this.

I have fired everything from 150gr. Lake City Match at 1000 yards up to 220gr. Roundnose (not just one or two rounds, but boxes) at Elk. I have never bent an Op Rod, nor even tweaked one.

I have been shooting Garands since I was 12 when my father bought one. He starting shooting them in WWII then Korea and the early parts of Vietnam. I have seen Garands take a lot of abuse and keep going. I do not know if other rifles would have. But if it came down to a choice of what I would have to defend my life with, I know what I would chose.



ED

P.S. for any Liberals reading this, I did not fire boxes of ammo at one Elk
jrkarp  [Team Member]
9/11/2007 10:03:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By 30Caliber:
It held more rounds than any other rifle of it's day and reloads faster than any rifle currently fielded.


Actually, the Enfields had a 10 round box magazine.
wildearp  [Team Member]
9/11/2007 10:35:35 AM EST
I had a Garand more than 10 years back that would kick out the entire clip after one or two rounds. It can happen, and I have seen posts on the arfcom about it too.

I had problems finding 30.06 ammo locally and could not find a smith that would touch it. This was before the wizzardom of the intarweb was around to help.

I was firing the Garand single shot anyway , so I sold it for a profit and got a bolt gun.

Garands may be reliable, but mine wasn't and it was a bad experience for me. I now have an M1A that keeps me from feeling too bad about not having a Garand.
H2O_MAN  [Member]
9/11/2007 12:16:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By wildearp:


Garands may be reliable, but mine wasn't and it was a bad experience for me. I now have an M1A that keeps me from feeling too bad about not having a Garand.


I learned to shoot on the Garand, but I only own M14s.
gewamser  [Member]
9/11/2007 2:04:14 PM EST
+1 M1 Ed...and would you believe? That when the M-14 was being tested the Gov't conducted numerous tests of feeding reliability and ease and quickness of reloading comparing M1 to M-14 and believe it or not, they were almost a tie, with the M-14 only having a slight edge.
cobra-ak  [Team Member]
9/11/2007 2:14:47 PM EST
When it "peeeenged" the enemy knew you were reloading.
DanishM1Garand  [Member]
9/11/2007 2:37:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:
When it "peeeenged" the enemy knew you were reloading.


And fast as lightning you were reloaded. The rifle took care of the empty clip for you, that's half the battle with an AR, AK, or an M14.
Top_prop  [Member]
9/11/2007 2:54:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:
When it "peeeenged" the enemy knew you were reloading.


And fast as lightning you were reloaded. The rifle took care of the empty clip for you, that's half the battle with an AR, AK, or an M14.


I understood in Korea they would have one guy purposely dump a clip with another ready for a quick reload, grab empty clips and 'ping' them etc, to lull the Chineese into charges thinking they were charging a bunch of guys reloading...

so I guess the 'ping' can work for the Garand as welll
DanishM1Garand  [Member]
9/11/2007 3:02:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Top_prop:

Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:
When it "peeeenged" the enemy knew you were reloading.


And fast as lightning you were reloaded. The rifle took care of the empty clip for you, that's half the battle with an AR, AK, or an M14.


I understood in Korea they would have one guy purposely dump a clip with another ready for a quick reload, grab empty clips and 'ping' them etc, to lull the Chineese into charges thinking they were charging a bunch of guys reloading...

so I guess the 'ping' can work for the Garand as welll


Uncle John was at Chosin with Chesty. He was Army...long story. He said that they would do just that. Fire and throw a handful of empty clips. It worked often enough.
cornholio123  [Team Member]
9/11/2007 3:04:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
i'd say it is one of the more likely areas to give the shooter troubles... just reference all the posts on here (usually one per week or so) about "i just got my garand, and it ejects the clip with 3 or 4 rounds left"

That said, it was far and away one of the most advanced designs of the 30's and remained so until probably toward the end of the war. I'd say the Mp44 was really the first firearm to surpass the Garand in terms of technological advance in a main battle arm, granted the Mp44 was more of a primitive assault rifle.

Of course the Garand isn't the most advanced rifle today, it's been around for 70 years, but the fact that it's still so popular is strong testimony to it's inherent design excellence.


Negative. The BAR was before the MP44.
notso  [Team Member]
9/11/2007 3:09:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By cornholio123:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
i'd say it is one of the more likely areas to give the shooter troubles... just reference all the posts on here (usually one per week or so) about "i just got my garand, and it ejects the clip with 3 or 4 rounds left"

That said, it was far and away one of the most advanced designs of the 30's and remained so until probably toward the end of the war. I'd say the Mp44 was really the first firearm to surpass the Garand in terms of technological advance in a main battle arm, granted the Mp44 was more of a primitive assault rifle.

Of course the Garand isn't the most advanced rifle today, it's been around for 70 years, but the fact that it's still so popular is strong testimony to it's inherent design excellence.


Negative. The BAR was before the MP44.


BAR was a Light machine gun, or SAW not an Assault Rifle (Select fire, intermediate cartridge)
notso  [Team Member]
9/11/2007 3:10:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By seahawkdodge:
Well, in some ways it is a "weak link", but not in reliability. The biggest problem is the lack of a replaceable magazine, so it is impossible to do a tactical reload.

For you and me, as a shooter...no weak links. I kind of doubt you are doing three gun matches, or any kind of tactical courses with the M1...


I shot a Tac match with one. I was finishing stages faster than some guys with ARs
cornholio123  [Team Member]
9/11/2007 3:22:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By notso:

Originally Posted By cornholio123:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
i'd say it is one of the more likely areas to give the shooter troubles... just reference all the posts on here (usually one per week or so) about "i just got my garand, and it ejects the clip with 3 or 4 rounds left"

That said, it was far and away one of the most advanced designs of the 30's and remained so until probably toward the end of the war. I'd say the Mp44 was really the first firearm to surpass the Garand in terms of technological advance in a main battle arm, granted the Mp44 was more of a primitive assault rifle.

Of course the Garand isn't the most advanced rifle today, it's been around for 70 years, but the fact that it's still so popular is strong testimony to it's inherent design excellence.


Negative. The BAR was before the MP44.


BAR was a Light machine gun, or SAW not an Assault Rifle (Select fire, intermediate cartridge)


Then you should write more clearly. You said advanced designs you didn't specify (Rifle, LMG or whatever) so I get to pick. Also the Garand is not an assault rifle either. It's a MBR.
SteelonSteel  [Member]
9/11/2007 5:57:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By wildearp:
I had a Garand more than 10 years back that would kick out the entire clip after one or two rounds. It can happen, and I have seen posts on the arfcom about it too.

I had problems finding 30.06 ammo locally and could not find a smith that would touch it. This was before the wizzardom of the intarweb was around to help.

I was firing the Garand single shot anyway , so I sold it for a profit and got a bolt gun.

Garands may be reliable, but mine wasn't and it was a bad experience for me. I now have an M1A that keeps me from feeling too bad about not having a Garand.


That's too bad! A $1 spring would have cured it in 95% of cases. The other 5% would be fixed with a new clip latch for about $10-20.
JJREA  [Member]
9/11/2007 6:30:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:

Originally Posted By wildearp:
I had a Garand more than 10 years back that would kick out the entire clip after one or two rounds. It can happen, and I have seen posts on the arfcom about it too.

I had problems finding 30.06 ammo locally and could not find a smith that would touch it. This was before the wizzardom of the intarweb was around to help.

I was firing the Garand single shot anyway , so I sold it for a profit and got a bolt gun.

Garands may be reliable, but mine wasn't and it was a bad experience for me. I now have an M1A that keeps me from feeling too bad about not having a Garand.


That's too bad! A $1 spring would have cured it in 95% of cases. The other 5% would be fixed with a new clip latch for about $10-20.


Yeah, what did you expect, a brand new Glock that shouldn't have any problems. Any of these things are so old and abused that you may need to replace some things on them to bring them up to original spec. If your AR saw two wars and part of a 3rd and you bought it, would you expect it to operate like a new rifle??????????
JJREA  [Member]
9/11/2007 6:31:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:
When it "peeeenged" the enemy knew you were reloading.


This is the lamest crap, and I can't stand listening to it. Does everyone in your squad run out of ammo at the same time and stand there with their thumbs up their butts waiting to get shot?


And to respond to this whole thing, what irritates me about this whole thing is you can actually top off the clip. It's just not that easy to do. You have to hold the oprod back and slip them in the clip. You have to make sure the case is seated against the back of the clip and more than likely M1-Ed's way is just the smarter way to do it. But it's funny how everyone acts like it's impossible. It's not. If you knew you had a couple of minutes, you could do it. If you didn't just reload and rock on. I think it's a great system and it is very fast. When shooting prone I think it's a more comfortable rifle to shoot due to not having that box hanging down in your way.
captainpooby  [Team Member]
9/11/2007 6:35:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By jrkarp:

Originally Posted By 30Caliber:
It held more rounds than any other rifle of it's day and reloads faster than any rifle currently fielded.


Actually, the Enfields had a 10 round box magazine.



Was anyone issued extra mags?
JJREA  [Member]
9/11/2007 6:38:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By captainpooby:

Originally Posted By jrkarp:

Originally Posted By 30Caliber:
It held more rounds than any other rifle of it's day and reloads faster than any rifle currently fielded.


Actually, the Enfields had a 10 round box magazine.



Was anyone issued extra mags?


It's my understanding that that is a big negative. They are hard to remove quickly and they didn't because they didn't have extra's. They just loaded from the top like everyone else. Although the point taken is it's 2 extra rounds. But takes longer to reload in my opinion.
captainpooby  [Team Member]
9/11/2007 6:39:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:

Originally Posted By jrkarp:

Originally Posted By 30Caliber:
It held more rounds than any other rifle of it's day and reloads faster than any rifle currently fielded.


Actually, the Enfields had a 10 round box magazine.



Was anyone issued extra mags?


It's my understanding that that is a big negative. They are hard to remove quickly and they didn't because they didn't have extra's. They just loaded from the top like everyone else. Although the point taken is it's 2 extra rounds. But takes longer to reload in my opinion.



FiftyCalAl  [Team Member]
9/11/2007 7:25:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:

Originally Posted By Top_prop:

Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:
When it "peeeenged" the enemy knew you were reloading.


And fast as lightning you were reloaded. The rifle took care of the empty clip for you, that's half the battle with an AR, AK, or an M14.


I understood in Korea they would have one guy purposely dump a clip with another ready for a quick reload, grab empty clips and 'ping' them etc, to lull the Chineese into charges thinking they were charging a bunch of guys reloading...

so I guess the 'ping' can work for the Garand as welll


Uncle John was at Chosin with Chesty. He was Army...long story. He said that they would do just that. Fire and throw a handful of empty clips. It worked often enough.


Not doubting that troops did just that, pinged their clips to make the enemy think they were reloading, but I seriously have problems believing that the fact that pings occurred was the impetus for an enemy charge. I suspect it was just coincidence - here's why. Most engagements during WWII and Korea (with the exception of some battles in the Pacific Theater, involved fairly long target engagement ranges. (one of the reason a big ole .30 caliber projo was preferred)(and we actually had people trained to fire a long ranges using battlesitess). Let's say you are the bad guy that has been under a barage of .30 rifle and MG fire, interspersed with grenade an mortar fire, and the skirmish line is at least 100 yards away, do you REALLY think you could hear a metallic ping above the thunder of the muzzle blasts? Yeah, the troop behind the Garands could hear it, but they were only 1-10 feet away and were downrange of the muzzle blast/

Even if the enemy is only 20 feet away, the potential to hear the ping does not increase, it decreases because the decibel level and concussive force of the Garand's muzzle blast is even greater. Nobody had Peltor or Sorbin electronic ear protection back then. Hell, everyone I talked to (after I repeated teh question several times) said they only had wadded up cotton , fabric, or gum sometimes to stick in their ears.

So even though I believe combat vets BELIEVED that faking a ping was a common and effective 'lure'; I believe it had to be coincidence in most cases. I've never been in combat with Garands, but I been on the line at Camp Perry when about 150 of them are going off. Unless you were within 10 yards of the rifle (from the rear), you would not hear the clip's ping. Just a thought....
GLOCK-23  [Team Member]
9/12/2007 11:35:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:

Originally Posted By wildearp:
I had a Garand more than 10 years back that would kick out the entire clip after one or two rounds. It can happen, and I have seen posts on the arfcom about it too.

I had problems finding 30.06 ammo locally and could not find a smith that would touch it. This was before the wizzardom of the intarweb was around to help.

I was firing the Garand single shot anyway , so I sold it for a profit and got a bolt gun.

Garands may be reliable, but mine wasn't and it was a bad experience for me. I now have an M1A that keeps me from feeling too bad about not having a Garand.


That's too bad! A $1 spring would have cured it in 95% of cases. The other 5% would be fixed with a new clip latch for about $10-20.


You need to refigure your precentages.
Mine still dumps the clip with one round still in it.
I guess I need to order a bullet guide and a op rod catch next.
GLOCK-23
PhilipPeake  [Team Member]
9/17/2007 2:44:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:
When it "peeeenged" the enemy knew you were reloading.


I have it on good authority that a favorite trick to play on the Japanese was to fire most of the clip, swap it out (you *can* do this!) with a fresh one - fire one shot, then throw an empty clip against a rock. At that point a couple of then would try to rush you ... :-)
The_Beer_Slayer  [Site Staff]
9/17/2007 2:51:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By wildearp:
I had a Garand more than 10 years back that would kick out the entire clip after one or two rounds. It can happen, and I have seen posts on the arfcom about it too.

I had problems finding 30.06 ammo locally and could not find a smith that would touch it. This was before the wizzardom of the intarweb was around to help.

I was firing the Garand single shot anyway , so I sold it for a profit and got a bolt gun.

Garands may be reliable, but mine wasn't and it was a bad experience for me. I now have an M1A that keeps me from feeling too bad about not having a Garand.


most of the time when this happens it's due to worn/out of spec parts.

these guns went through 2 major wars years of abuse in service with foriegn countries and finally to our hands.

in good repair this is seldom an issue.

as for the "tactical reload argument....

it most certainly is possible to top one off with a bit of practice. i do it all the time.
Napoleon_Tanerite  [Team Member]
9/17/2007 3:08:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:
When it "peeeenged" the enemy knew you were reloading.


this is in the same category as saying "the ka-chuck of a shotgun will chase an intruder out of your house"
JJREA  [Member]
9/17/2007 6:29:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:
When it "peeeenged" the enemy knew you were reloading.


this is in the same category as saying "the ka-chuck of a shotgun will chase an intruder out of your house"


Well said.
MonkTx  [Member]
9/17/2007 7:10:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:
When it "peeeenged" the enemy knew you were reloading.


When is this stupid shit going to die?


Honestly, how freaking quiet is a battle if you can hear a clip eject?

ETA: go to a hundred different gun discussion forums and search for "ping" and you'll get the same damn bullshit story about fooling the japanese with an empty clip. Jungles are loud, especially at night. I guess them sneaky japs could pick out the sound of a "ping" from the quarter million frogs and bugs ten feet away screaming their lungs out. When I hear a real vet say it he did it, then I might believe it.

The stupidity never ends.
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