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 AOW? WTF
TommyV  [Member]
9/29/2011 3:41:29 AM
I have always been confused by these NFA laws. It was explained to me that our federal govt placed restrictions on SBSs and SBRs because of the fear they were too easy to conceal.

Then I find out there is something called an AOW which while not as expensive for the stamp $5, is still just as much a pain to obtain. . . and MORE concealable. (referring to short shotguns w/ pistol grips from the factory).

Then there are these 5.56, etc pistols that are nothing like what a "pistol" is. How did these guns escape the feds iron fist? I am not complaining, not at all. I have just always wondered how a short shotgun pistol is an AOW NFA weapon yet, what are basically sub-machine guns without stocks and semi-auto are just sold as normal "pistols".

I just find it very frustrating the amount of hassle it takes just to get a carbine with a say 12.5" barrel or a shotgun with a 14" barrel. Who are they really protecting with laws like that? Full-Auto weapons I can understand but jeez, can they update the law so you do not have to be a millionaire to own one? Surely they can come to some kind of compromise where they still are heavily regulated but can be had post 86 manufactured.

Maybe if they did away with all the SBR/SBS forms they had to process, it would not take 6 months to get a suppressor or full-auto weapon.

I apologize for my rant. I really only intended to ask about AOW vs the "pistols" but ended up venting about my frustration with the whole NFA system. Firearms as a hobby is an expensive enough as it is. I shouldn't have to hire lawyers, open a trust, pay $200 tax, wait 6 months just if I want my barrel a couple of inches shorter.
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Willz  [Team Member]
9/29/2011 4:03:52 AM
" I can think of nothing the ATF does that is necessary and many things it does that are not. " Col. Jeff Cooper

(edit: yes it is meant to be cumbersome, costly and in some ways punitive.)
shrikefan  [Team Member]
9/29/2011 5:12:40 AM
Like many government agencys, their main focus is to perpetuate their existence and justify their budgets.
Dedeye  [Member]
9/29/2011 7:21:36 AM
The core of understanding this situation is in the definitions of various types of firearms you will find in federal law. While BATF can be very aggrivating, the rulings they issue are based in law and really aren't their fault- they get the crappy laws from congress and have to deal with them the best they can.

For example, the shortie AOW shotguns that puzzle you aren't shotguns (legally speaking). They are smooth-bored pistols according to the definitions in federal law. Back in the 20s and 30s, some folks liked to ream the rifling out of revolvers or other handguns and shoot shot shells out of them. The definition of handgun includes the need for a rifled barrel. If it ain't rifled, the device isn't a handgun, so what is it? Congress cooked up the "Any Other Weapon" category to try to deal with some of the odd guns out there that don't fit the definitions for conventional firearms. This is why a short shotgun that you install a pistol grip on is a short-barrelled shotgun (because it came from the factory with a buttstock and fits the definition of "shotgun", while a short shotgun that came from the factory with a pistol grip is a "smooth-bored pistol". It was produced with no provision for being fired from the shoulder, so it never fit the definition of "shofgun".

Internet opinions are fine, but it's a good idea to actually go to the source and read the statutes. It's not easy, as they are written in lawyer-ese, but it will give you a much better understanding of what you are dealing with.
shrikefan  [Team Member]
9/29/2011 10:03:49 AM
Originally Posted By Dedeye:
... the rulings they issue are based in law...


Not quite. A lot of their rulings are based on personal opinion. Why do you think there have been so many reversals over the years? A wallet holster is a AOW?

AOW (by statute) would not apply to a pistol (AR for example) that is longer than 26" and has a forward grip because it would not be considered concealable due to the length.

The AOW statute applies to a very limited scope of firearms (by statute), however the ATF likes to try to expand that scope through their various opinions. Until someone with deep pockets such as T/C challenges them the wrong opinions will stand.

AJ_Dual  [Team Member]
9/29/2011 10:31:06 AM
A lot of the mess stems back to the fact that the original drafts of the 1934 NFA were going to make ALL HANDGUNS subject to NFA taxes and registration as well.

When it was realized that was way too extreme, and would cause the bill to fail, it was dropped. However, when handguns were included, the Short Barreled Rifle, and Short Barreled Shotgun categories were included as well, because the bill's authors didn't want the populace buying non-NFA long-guns and cutting them down to make untaxed pistol substitutes.

When the handguns were dropped from the NFA, the short barreled categories remained either by oversight, or because they still noticed that sawed offs tended to show up in the arsenals of the Bonnie & Clyde types of the day.

While Prohibition and the gang/mob violence of the day was cited as the prime reason behind the NFA, the broader context was of the Great Depression, and lots of labor union unrest etc. and there was a lot of fear there would be some sort of uprising or revolution in the U.S. Just as how the assassinations of JFK, MLK, and RFK are cited as the motivation for the '68 GCA, the broader context of all the other 1960's unrest like the Weathermen Underground, the SLA, Black Panthers etc. was a big part of it too.
TommyV  [Member]
9/30/2011 11:17:51 AM
Originally Posted By Dedeye:
The core of understanding this situation is in the definitions of various types of firearms you will find in federal law. While BATF can be very aggrivating, the rulings they issue are based in law and really aren't their fault- they get the crappy laws from congress and have to deal with them the best they can.

For example, the shortie AOW shotguns that puzzle you aren't shotguns (legally speaking). They are smooth-bored pistols according to the definitions in federal law. Back in the 20s and 30s, some folks liked to ream the rifling out of revolvers or other handguns and shoot shot shells out of them. The definition of handgun includes the need for a rifled barrel. If it ain't rifled, the device isn't a handgun, so what is it? Congress cooked up the "Any Other Weapon" category to try to deal with some of the odd guns out there that don't fit the definitions for conventional firearms. This is why a short shotgun that you install a pistol grip on is a short-barrelled shotgun (because it came from the factory with a buttstock and fits the definition of "shotgun", while a short shotgun that came from the factory with a pistol grip is a "smooth-bored pistol". It was produced with no provision for being fired from the shoulder, so it never fit the definition of "shofgun".

Internet opinions are fine, but it's a good idea to actually go to the source and read the statutes. It's not easy, as they are written in lawyer-ese, but it will give you a much better understanding of what you are dealing with.


The smooth-bore does seem to be the distinction that I was not taking into account. Does that mean a rifled shotgun barrel under 18" does not fall into this category?

I have read many of the gun laws including the Title 18 922. Especially when it comes to "sporting vs non-sporting" firearms. It bewilders me how petty some of these laws are.

Also, if they were trying to cripple the outlaws of the period, why not take it a step further and put a $200 tax and background check for fast V8 engines. Remember, back in 1934, $200 tax made NFA restricted firearms nearly unattainable 90%+ of the population. The common, law-abiding, hard working, red blooded American. Do you think Baby Face Nelsen would have thought twice about robbing a bank or killing an FBI agent if the NFA had already been passed? These laws and others of similar uselessness only have an effect on people who have any intention of following the law in the first place. Criminals who have no regard for the law are going to do whatever they want, regardless of what bills congress passes.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

"Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature." - Ben Franklin
iNeXile556  [Team Member]
10/1/2011 11:55:02 AM

Originally Posted By TommyV:

The smooth-bore does seem to be the distinction that I was not taking into account. Does that mean a rifled shotgun barrel under 18" does not fall into this category?


The rifled shotgun barrel is still a shotgun barrel because of the same definitions:

The term "rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

The term "shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

The rifled shotgun barrel is designed and intended to shoot ball shot or single projectiles. So it remains a shotgun.

Or so it is my understanding.
COLT  [Member]
10/2/2011 10:52:31 AM
Originally Posted By TommyV:
Originally Posted By Dedeye:
The core of understanding this situation is in the definitions of various types of firearms you will find in federal law. While BATF can be very aggrivating, the rulings they issue are based in law and really aren't their fault- they get the crappy laws from congress and have to deal with them the best they can.

For example, the shortie AOW shotguns that puzzle you aren't shotguns (legally speaking). They are smooth-bored pistols according to the definitions in federal law. Back in the 20s and 30s, some folks liked to ream the rifling out of revolvers or other handguns and shoot shot shells out of them. The definition of handgun includes the need for a rifled barrel. If it ain't rifled, the device isn't a handgun, so what is it? Congress cooked up the "Any Other Weapon" category to try to deal with some of the odd guns out there that don't fit the definitions for conventional firearms. This is why a short shotgun that you install a pistol grip on is a short-barrelled shotgun (because it came from the factory with a buttstock and fits the definition of "shotgun", while a short shotgun that came from the factory with a pistol grip is a "smooth-bored pistol". It was produced with no provision for being fired from the shoulder, so it never fit the definition of "shofgun".

Internet opinions are fine, but it's a good idea to actually go to the source and read the statutes. It's not easy, as they are written in lawyer-ese, but it will give you a much better understanding of what you are dealing with.


The smooth-bore does seem to be the distinction that I was not taking into account. Does that mean a rifled shotgun barrel under 18" does not fall into this category?

I have read many of the gun laws including the Title 18 922. Especially when it comes to "sporting vs non-sporting" firearms. It bewilders me how petty some of these laws are.

Also, if they were trying to cripple the outlaws of the period, why not take it a step further and put a $200 tax and background check for fast V8 engines. Remember, back in 1934, $200 tax made NFA restricted firearms nearly unattainable 90%+ of the population. The common, law-abiding, hard working, red blooded American. Do you think Baby Face Nelsen would have thought twice about robbing a bank or killing an FBI agent if the NFA had already been passed? These laws and others of similar uselessness only have an effect on people who have any intention of following the law in the first place. Criminals who have no regard for the law are going to do whatever they want, regardless of what bills congress passes.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

"Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature." - Ben Franklin


FORM 4 TRANSFERS WERE $200.00 BUT FORM 1'S WERE FREE IF YOU MADE IT YOURSELF UNTIL THE 1968 GUN CONTROL ACT !
tony_k  [Team Member]
10/2/2011 11:59:06 AM
shrikefan  [Team Member]
10/2/2011 12:44:24 PM
Originally Posted By tony_k:


What did I miss?

TommyV  [Member]
10/4/2011 8:40:02 PM
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:

Originally Posted By TommyV:

The smooth-bore does seem to be the distinction that I was not taking into account. Does that mean a rifled shotgun barrel under 18" does not fall into this category?


The rifled shotgun barrel is still a shotgun barrel because of the same definitions:

The term "rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

The term "shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

The rifled shotgun barrel is designed and intended to shoot ball shot or single projectiles. So it remains a shotgun.

Or so it is my understanding.


I was not referring to the definition of a shotgun. I was referring to the definition of a AOW. Let me clarify my question. An earlier poster said that a "smooth bore pistol" falls under the AOW category. My question was if you have a shotgun with a rifled barrel sold with a pistol grip, it is no longer a smooth bore pistol so would that take it out of the AOW restriction like the AR pistols and such?

Also even though it is possible shoot pellets out of a rifled barrel, I would not recommend it. It messes up the pattern completely.
Shermantor-AR15  [Member]
10/5/2011 8:59:21 AM
Originally Posted By COLT:
FORM 4 TRANSFERS WERE $200.00 BUT FORM 1'S WERE FREE IF YOU MADE IT YOURSELF UNTIL THE 1968 GUN CONTROL ACT !


I'm calling BS on this.

iNeXile556  [Team Member]
10/5/2011 7:34:14 PM

Originally Posted By TommyV:
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:

Originally Posted By TommyV:

The smooth-bore does seem to be the distinction that I was not taking into account. Does that mean a rifled shotgun barrel under 18" does not fall into this category?


The rifled shotgun barrel is still a shotgun barrel because of the same definitions:

The term "rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

The term "shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

The rifled shotgun barrel is designed and intended to shoot ball shot or single projectiles. So it remains a shotgun.

Or so it is my understanding.


I was not referring to the definition of a shotgun. I was referring to the definition of a AOW. Let me clarify my question. An earlier poster said that a "smooth bore pistol" falls under the AOW category. My question was if you have a shotgun with a rifled barrel sold with a pistol grip, it is no longer a smooth bore pistol so would that take it out of the AOW restriction like the AR pistols and such?

Also even though it is possible shoot pellets out of a rifled barrel, I would not recommend it. It messes up the pattern completely.
A pistol with a rifled barrel is not subject to the NFA. Example is the Taurus Judge.
I do not believe a rifled .410 barrel is available for the AR platform. I could be wrong, have been before, most likely will be again.

shrikefan  [Team Member]
10/5/2011 9:18:01 PM
About 15-20 years ago some outfit was making and selling pump (shotgun) AOW's. They had a straight "rifled" barrel.
yadayada  [Member]
10/9/2011 3:46:41 PM
Being an Illinois captive, I cannot own any NFA except AOW that were not shotguns originally.

Where can I find receivers without the shoulder stock so I can submit a form 1 in compliance w/ Illinois law?

jjwheeler2  [Member]
10/9/2011 3:57:02 PM
Originally Posted By yadayada:
Being an Illinois captive, I cannot own any NFA except AOW that were not shotguns originally.

Where can I find receivers without the shoulder stock so I can submit a form 1 in compliance w/ Illinois law?



Since it is a pain to get one from Remington with a pistol grip I know a lot of people just buy the Mossburg shotguns and form one them. Just remember even though it is a AOW the stamp to makeis still $200.
yadayada  [Member]
10/9/2011 4:22:04 PM
The way I read Illinois law, changing a shotgun to a AOW is a SBS, illegal in Illinois.

It's a legal AOW if it's made from a receiver that never had a shoulder stock.

shrikefan  [Team Member]
10/9/2011 6:18:11 PM
Originally Posted By yadayada:
The way I read Illinois law, changing a shotgun to a AOW is a SBS, illegal in Illinois.

It's a legal AOW if it's made from a receiver that never had a shoulder stock.



The Mossburg Cruisers (probably others) come from the factory with a pistol grip only and are a shade over 26". And are NOT considered shotguns since they aren't designed to be fired from the shoulder.

TommyV  [Member]
10/31/2011 12:43:06 AM
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:

Originally Posted By TommyV:
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:

Originally Posted By TommyV:

The smooth-bore does seem to be the distinction that I was not taking into account. Does that mean a rifled shotgun barrel under 18" does not fall into this category?


The rifled shotgun barrel is still a shotgun barrel because of the same definitions:

The term "rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

The term "shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

The rifled shotgun barrel is designed and intended to shoot ball shot or single projectiles. So it remains a shotgun.

Or so it is my understanding.


I was not referring to the definition of a shotgun. I was referring to the definition of a AOW. Let me clarify my question. An earlier poster said that a "smooth bore pistol" falls under the AOW category. My question was if you have a shotgun with a rifled barrel sold with a pistol grip, it is no longer a smooth bore pistol so would that take it out of the AOW restriction like the AR pistols and such?

Also even though it is possible shoot pellets out of a rifled barrel, I would not recommend it. It messes up the pattern completely.
A pistol with a rifled barrel is not subject to the NFA. Example is the Taurus Judge.
I do not believe a rifled .410 barrel is available for the AR platform. I could be wrong, have been before, most likely will be again.



I am not looking for a AR .410. I was just thinking, if you bought a Mossberg or some other 12 ga with an 18"+ barrel and a pistol grip from the factory, It seems you could put a 14" rifled barrel on it and it would be considered a pistol since it came from the factory without a shoulder stock and has a rifled barrel. Personally I would not want to own such a firearm but I saw a 14" rifled 12ga barrel and it made me think of this.

cosmos556  [Team Member]
10/31/2011 9:47:19 AM
Originally Posted By yadayada:
Being an Illinois captive, I cannot own any NFA except AOW that were not shotguns originally.

Where can I find receivers without the shoulder stock so I can submit a form 1 in compliance w/ Illinois law?



On Gunbroker, a member here (AIPPI) sells 870 factory virgin receivers - not parted out shotguns, but virgin receivers. Link to auction
Jack_Of_Some_Trades  [Team Member]
10/31/2011 10:22:02 AM
Originally Posted By TommyV:
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:

Originally Posted By TommyV:
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:

Originally Posted By TommyV:

The smooth-bore does seem to be the distinction that I was not taking into account. Does that mean a rifled shotgun barrel under 18" does not fall into this category?


The rifled shotgun barrel is still a shotgun barrel because of the same definitions:

The term "rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

The term "shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

The rifled shotgun barrel is designed and intended to shoot ball shot or single projectiles. So it remains a shotgun.

Or so it is my understanding.


I was not referring to the definition of a shotgun. I was referring to the definition of a AOW. Let me clarify my question. An earlier poster said that a "smooth bore pistol" falls under the AOW category. My question was if you have a shotgun with a rifled barrel sold with a pistol grip, it is no longer a smooth bore pistol so would that take it out of the AOW restriction like the AR pistols and such?

Also even though it is possible shoot pellets out of a rifled barrel, I would not recommend it. It messes up the pattern completely.
A pistol with a rifled barrel is not subject to the NFA. Example is the Taurus Judge.
I do not believe a rifled .410 barrel is available for the AR platform. I could be wrong, have been before, most likely will be again.



I am not looking for a AR .410. I was just thinking, if you bought a Mossberg or some other 12 ga with an 18"+ barrel and a pistol grip from the factory, It seems you could put a 14" rifled barrel on it and it would be considered a pistol since it came from the factory without a shoulder stock and has a rifled barrel. Personally I would not want to own such a firearm but I saw a 14" rifled 12ga barrel and it made me think of this.



but if it was a pistol with a rifled bore over .50", then it would be a Destructive device.
zshier17  [Member]
10/31/2011 8:33:59 PM
So if mossberg sells the cruisers and whatnot, if they arent considered a shotgun because they were never meant to shoot from the shoulder, and it has a smooth bore, but is over 26 inches what is it? it contradicts all the definitions in my mind. maybe im just confusing myself. my understanding was its over 26in overall so its not an AOW, and the barrel is 18in., so its just a legal shotgun with a pistol grip. am i wrong? am i missing something?
Jack_Of_Some_Trades  [Team Member]
10/31/2011 8:41:51 PM
Originally Posted By zshier17:
So if mossberg sells the cruisers and whatnot, if they arent considered a shotgun because they were never meant to shoot from the shoulder, and it has a smooth bore, but is over 26 inches what is it? it contradicts all the definitions in my mind. maybe im just confusing myself. my understanding was its over 26in overall so its not an AOW, and the barrel is 18in., so its just a legal shotgun with a pistol grip. am i wrong? am i missing something?


A 26+" OAL Mossberg Cruiser is just a Title 1 firearm. It is not a shotgun, rifle, or pistol.
tony_k  [Team Member]
10/31/2011 8:43:48 PM
Originally Posted By Jack_Of_Some_Trades:
Originally Posted By zshier17:
So if mossberg sells the cruisers and whatnot, if they arent considered a shotgun because they were never meant to shoot from the shoulder, and it has a smooth bore, but is over 26 inches what is it? it contradicts all the definitions in my mind. maybe im just confusing myself. my understanding was its over 26in overall so its not an AOW, and the barrel is 18in., so its just a legal shotgun with a pistol grip. am i wrong? am i missing something?


A 26+" OAL Mossberg Cruiser is just a Title 1 firearm. It is not a shotgun, rifle, or pistol.

Correct. It is simply a firearm –– though, because it is neither a rifle nor a shotgun, under federal law you must be 21 to legally purchase it from an FFL, while an 18-year-old can purchase the same gun with a buttstock.

Think of it this way:

It does not fit the definition of a Title 1 rifle, nor of a shotgun, nor of a handgun .... and at the same time, it does not meet any of the definitions of Title 2 firearms covered under the National Firearms Act.

At the same time, however, it does meet the general definition of a firearm, in that it fires a projectile or projectiles via gunpowder. Thus, it cannot instead be classed as a lampshade, a book, a motor vehicle or a TV dinner. It obviously is a firearm ... and that's all it is: A firearm which does not fall into any of the specific existing defined subcategories, yet is still a firearm.

HTH. YMMV.
TommyV  [Member]
11/2/2011 2:39:17 AM
Originally Posted By Jack_Of_Some_Trades:
but if it was a pistol with a rifled bore over .50", then it would be a Destructive device.


Thank you for that. Obviously, I am not well versed in all the rules and definitions when it comes to NFA stuff. That is part of the reason I have avoided anything that falls under those restrictions. I have some friends who encourage me to "SBR" my MP5 or "put a can" on this or that. Every time I start into what all is involved, I get dizzy. One day probably I will do some sort of NFA item. They tell me it gets easier after the first.

shrikefan  [Team Member]
11/2/2011 6:45:12 AM
Originally Posted By TommyV:
Originally Posted By Jack_Of_Some_Trades:
but if it was a pistol with a rifled bore over .50", then it would be a Destructive device.


Thank you for that. Obviously, I am not well versed in all the rules and definitions when it comes to NFA stuff. That is part of the reason I have avoided anything that falls under those restrictions. I have some friends who encourage me to "SBR" my MP5 or "put a can" on this or that. Every time I start into what all is involved, I get dizzy. One day probably I will do some sort of NFA item. They tell me it gets easier after the first.



Not necessarily. There is a sporting use exemption for destructive devices.

tony_k  [Team Member]
11/2/2011 11:11:28 AM
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Not necessarily. There is a sporting use exemption for destructive devices.

There is indeed a sporting-use exemption, but those are only granted by the U.S. attorney general. So if you've got Eric Holder on speed dial and you think that he will see a sporting use for a pistol-gripped, 14" rifled-barrel 12-gauge, then give him a shout.
shrikefan  [Team Member]
11/2/2011 11:36:03 AM
Originally Posted By tony_k:
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Not necessarily. There is a sporting use exemption for destructive devices.

There is indeed a sporting-use exemption, but those are only granted by the U.S. attorney general. So if you've got Eric Holder on speed dial and you think that he will see a sporting use for a pistol-gripped, 14" rifled-barrel 12-gauge, then give him a shout.


If I had one I would probably be using it in the states. However, if I ever get one and decide to go hunting with it south of the border I will give him a shout.

Seriously though, in the DD law it says "or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes."

Granted a pistol gripped 14" rifled barreled 12 guage would not be covered, but 20mm rifles used for target shooting/hunting should be exempt without specific approval from the Secretary. Correct?

Sorry if this is slightly off topic.
tony_k  [Team Member]
11/2/2011 1:38:27 PM
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
(snip)
Seriously though, in the DD law it says "or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes."

Granted a pistol gripped 14" rifled barreled 12 guage would not be covered, but 20mm rifles used for target shooting/hunting should be exempt without specific approval from the Secretary. Correct?

Sorry if this is slightly off topic.

Hey, it may be off-topic slightly, but IMHO this discussion might be useful info.

FWIW, that language was written into federal law when BATF was an agency of the Internal Revenue Service, which was headed by the Secretary of the Treasury. When Congress moved ATF from the IRS to the DOJ, it transferred all administrative powers with it. Since the Attorney General heads the DOJ, he also is the one who now determines which firearms fall under the sporting exemption.

In practice, the AG has delegated such decisions to ATF's Tech and Legal Branches.

Again, remember that the broad stroke of the law defines these as DDs –– they are exempted only if Tech/Legal decide there is a sporting purpose. (When they do, I'm sure they send a memo to Holder, which he puts in his "I'll never read any ATF memos" stack.

The way the .50 cal rifles normally are handled is that the 07/02 FFL/SOT manufacturer builds a prototype, registers it as a DD via a Form 2, then sends the prototype to NFA Tech Branch. Months or a year later, Tech Branch makes its determination, which then goes to Legal Branch (the folks at Legal tend to be more politically aware, and often veto Tech).

If/when Tech and Legal agree it has a sporting purpose, the prototype is designated a Title 1 firearm and returned to the 07/02, who then can gear up production accordingly (the market for Title 1 firearms is significantly larger than for DDs).

So for your theoretical 14"-rifled-barrel-pistol-gripped firearm to get an exemption from the DD law, you would have to file a Form 1 to legally build it, then submit it to Tech/Legal branches as a prototype. Months or a year or two later, you will find out if they have deigned to grant an exemption. Until they do so, it is a DD. (Which is why you must Form 1 it first.)

AFAIK, no one has ever submitted such a prototype.

You want to go for it?
TommyV  [Member]
11/2/2011 5:52:21 PM
Originally Posted By shrikefan:...Sorry if this is slightly off topic.


Don't worry about the topic. My questions have already been answered in great detail. I am interested to read any off-topic posts.

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