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 Ruger 300 win mag accuracy issues
TZapp  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 6:06:08 PM
Let me start by saying i did use the search and didnt come up with anything current.

I started a thread over in the reloading forum HERE looking for some help getting my reloads worked up.

some of the posters have suggested some mods to make to my rifle, and that maybe i should ask in the precision rifle forum for help as well.

My rifle is a Ruger M77 in 300 winmag, Synthetic stock, Stainless steel, and Timney aftermarket trigger @3lb. The scope is a Simmons Aetec on ruger rings.

Im shooting 3 shot groups at 100yds using a cheap bench rest from walmart. I walk down to the target while the rifle cools off, and mark my shots. Then when i return i make another shot.

So far i have tried the following hand loads all loads using H-4350 and Sierra 175gr MK's

66gr @ COL 3.30"
66gr @ COL 3.37"
67gr @ COL 3.37"
68gr @ COL 3.37"
69gr @ COL 3.37"

In 3 of the 4 groups i shot, 2 of the three shots are close but the third shot was a flier, moslty to the left. This has been a common thing with this gun in the past and i thought reloading could tighten up the groups some. so far no luck.

This is the 69gr @ COL 3.37"


In this pic 1,2, and 3 shots are 66gr @ COL 3.37" --- 4,5,and 6 are 67gr @ COL 3.37" --- 7,8, and 9 are 68gr @ COL 3.37"


Any help with this issue would be appreciated.
D-RAS03  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 6:17:35 PM
Is the barrel free floated? Do you dry fire a lot? How much experiance do you have in this game?
TZapp  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 6:23:41 PM
Originally Posted By D-RAS03:
Is the barrel free floated? Do you dry fire a lot? How much experiance do you have in this game?


The gun is bone stock other than the trigger. it was installed by a gunsmith. I dont think the barrel is free floated.

I do not dry fire at all. Only my pistols and i use snap caps in them.

Zero experience with Precision rifle.

The only thing i bring to the table for experience is i reload for my AR-15's. They are not really precisionloads as i load for function and reliability only. The best groups with my AR-15s is 1 inch at 100yds with Hornady 55gr soft points over 25gr of H-335 COL @ 2.20" 16inch barrel

D-RAS03  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 6:26:30 PM
Well with your first group I would say you would benefit from dry fire practice. Make sure your guns unloaded. Aim at a spot on the wall and see if the reticle moves at all.
RyJones  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 6:32:54 PM
You need a new stock. I had a m77 mk ii and groups tightened up once the light, barrel touching stock was replaced with a hogue over molded stock that didn't touch the barrel
230JHP  [Member]
2/28/2013 6:33:08 PM
Not questioning your skills but I'd have a couple more people try the rifle with good factory ammo.
RyJones  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 6:33:39 PM
Originally Posted By 230JHP:
Not questioning your skills but I'd have a couple more people try the rifle with good factory ammo.


Also, this
TZapp  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 6:39:41 PM
Originally Posted By RyJones:
Originally Posted By 230JHP:
Not questioning your skills but I'd have a couple more people try the rifle with good factory ammo.


Also, this


no offense taken. this rifle shoots factory ammo the same way,

i will have somone else try it though.

shooting from the rest, the only place i touch the gun is grip/trigger, and buttstock with shoulder and left hand

RyJones  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 6:43:30 PM
Unless the rest is right under the action, it's pressing on the stock fore arm, which presses on the barrel.
TZapp  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 6:43:39 PM
Originally Posted By RyJones:
You need a new stock. I had a m77 mk ii and groups tightened up once the light, barrel touching stock was replaced with a hogue over molded stock that didn't touch the barrel


Whats something like that cost? Im not apposed to spending the money. Its just that im weighing the cost of upgrades compared to a new rifle (Rem, Savage, etc)

TZapp  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 6:45:33 PM
Originally Posted By RyJones:
Unless the rest is right under the action, it's pressing on the stock fore arm, which presses on the barrel.


Understood. It is out in front of the action about 1/2 way down the barrel. Could be causing a problem.

RyJones  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 6:49:01 PM
Have you done th dollar bill test? Look it up and try it out, involves sliding a dollar between the barrel and stock.
TZapp  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 6:54:18 PM
Originally Posted By RyJones:
Have you done th dollar bill test? Look it up and try it out, involves sliding a dollar between the barrel and stock.


Not yet. I will try it, will ya loan me a dollar?

TZapp  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 7:27:00 PM
dallar bill wil not even go 1/4 the width of the bill in. Fore arm is firmly up against the barrel
RyJones  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 7:36:42 PM
Originally Posted By TZapp:
dallar bill wil not even go 1/4 the width of the bill in. Fore arm is firmly up against the barrel


OK. You need a new stock, period. You have lots of options. I think this was the stock I bought but I'm not sure (no longer have the rifle). Before you buy anything, I'd look to make sure it's free floating.
TZapp  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 7:44:39 PM
Originally Posted By RyJones:
Originally Posted By TZapp:
dallar bill wil not even go 1/4 the width of the bill in. Fore arm is firmly up against the barrel


OK. You need a new stock, period. You have lots of options. I think this was the stock I bought but I'm not sure (no longer have the rifle). Before you buy anything, I'd look to make sure it's free floating.


I searched the precision rifle forum for some "how to" info and i see tons of stuff for other brand rifles. do you know of anything on here for the Ruger. Maybe i could free float my barrel?
RyJones  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 7:48:40 PM
Sorry, I need to be more clear. The issue here is that the stock is touching the barrel; that is, that the barrel is not free floating.

I'm asking you to replace the stock in order to free float your barrel; that is, the act of putting in a stock will free float the barrel, not something you would do later.

I had the same stock you had, and there is no way to free float with that stock. If you shave material off, it will just bend.
TZapp  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 7:57:14 PM
Originally Posted By RyJones:
Sorry, I need to be more clear. The issue here is that the stock is touching the barrel; that is, that the barrel is not free floating.

I'm asking you to replace the stock in order to free float your barrel; that is, the act of putting in a stock will free float the barrel, not something you would do later.

I had the same stock you had, and there is no way to free float with that stock. If you shave material off, it will just bend.


Thats how i took your post. However i did not know the factory stock was so dainty that it could not be worked on as to free float the barrel.

Thanks

RyJones  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 8:00:57 PM
Originally Posted By TZapp:
Originally Posted By RyJones:
Sorry, I need to be more clear. The issue here is that the stock is touching the barrel; that is, that the barrel is not free floating.

I'm asking you to replace the stock in order to free float your barrel; that is, the act of putting in a stock will free float the barrel, not something you would do later.

I had the same stock you had, and there is no way to free float with that stock. If you shave material off, it will just bend.


Thats how i took your post. However i did not know the factory stock was so dainty that it could not be worked on as to free float the barrel.

Thanks



well, if you're the adventurous type, you could start shaving the barrel channel down for clearance. The issue I found was that if you put a bipod on the end, the stock will bend, and if you try to open the channel more, it just gets weaker. This is what I did, until I ruined the OEM stock. If you don't mind buying a new stock, it might be worth your time to try it out. Maybe yours is stronger than mine was.
TZapp  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 8:06:49 PM
Originally Posted By RyJones:
Originally Posted By TZapp:
Originally Posted By RyJones:
Sorry, I need to be more clear. The issue here is that the stock is touching the barrel; that is, that the barrel is not free floating.

I'm asking you to replace the stock in order to free float your barrel; that is, the act of putting in a stock will free float the barrel, not something you would do later.

I had the same stock you had, and there is no way to free float with that stock. If you shave material off, it will just bend.


Thats how i took your post. However i did not know the factory stock was so dainty that it could not be worked on as to free float the barrel.

Thanks



well, if you're the adventurous type, you could start shaving the barrel channel down for clearance. The issue I found was that if you put a bipod on the end, the stock will bend, and if you try to open the channel more, it just gets weaker. This is what I did, until I ruined the OEM stock. If you don't mind buying a new stock, it might be worth your time to try it out. Maybe yours is stronger than mine was.


I doubt the stock on my rifle is any different than your was if it was synthetic. I may could add some rigidity to the outside of the stock after removing material, but it would likely look like hammered shit

My only interest in this rifle is hunting and plinking. I dont really have the urge to install a bipod. The hogue stock you linked to is very nice. I may try to get it in the future.

bigshooter300  [Member]
2/28/2013 9:06:34 PM
Just shoot it as is, why worry to make it a tack driver anyway for hunting. Scrape the stock down and be done with it. Pie plate groups close enough with a 300 WM. You will blow a hole the size of your fist anywhere you hit! Dang man. Save that money for a future rifle project.
TZapp  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 9:09:20 PM
Originally Posted By bigshooter300:
Just shoot it as is, why worry to make it a tack driver anyway for hunting. Scrape the stock down and be done with it. Pie plate groups close enough with a 300 WM. You will blow a hole the size of your fist anywhere you hit! Dang man. Save that money for a future rifle project.


The clearing in my hunting area is 500yds. i need a bit more accuracy than pie plate.

TZapp  [Team Member]
2/28/2013 10:23:16 PM
Can i drill out the hole in the tang and use a rigid metal tubing on the two screws that hold the trigger gard to the action? Would that do the same as pillar bedding?

I can see how the screws being tightned too much would torque the action.
Boomholzer  [Member]
3/1/2013 12:32:48 AM
The target print is more representative of hold. Especially if the numbering is correct.

Left to right could be outside shoulder pressure to butt and cheek plus forward support in square. Vertical is common in toe-in of your collar for recoil anticipation. Both are mutual as one will naturally bring the recoil closer into interior shoulder and lean forward. Multiple groupings like the ones exhibited are not odd.

Im shooting 3 shot groups at 100yds using a cheap bench rest from walmart.


I would not mess with the rifle until repeated comfortable position tells you to. If the corrective next shot requires movement of anything below your nipples, don’t mess with it for now. It’s not an easy animal to print in recoil and if you wiggle and slide everything from support and structure, POI deviates.
TZapp  [Team Member]
3/1/2013 1:48:19 AM
Originally Posted By Boomholzer:
The target print is more representative of hold. Especially if the numbering is correct.

Left to right could be outside shoulder pressure to butt and cheek plus forward support in square. Vertical is common in toe-in of your collar for recoil anticipation. Both are mutual as one will naturally bring the recoil closer into interior shoulder and lean forward. Multiple groupings like the ones exhibited are not odd.

Im shooting 3 shot groups at 100yds using a cheap bench rest from walmart.


I would not mess with the rifle until repeated comfortable position tells you to. If the corrective next shot requires movement of anything below your nipples, don’t mess with it for now. It’s not an easy animal to print in recoil and if you wiggle and slide everything from support and structure, POI deviates.


Since my last post i free floated the barrel. Holy shit was there a metric ton of pressure on the barrel. It took about 1/4 of an inch of material removal from the farthest point of the fore arm, where the fore arm wraps around the barrel.

My shooting position feels real good. Im able to breath and still hold the rifle on target. The trigger pulls are some what of a suprise when it happens. This rifle has around 150 rounds through it and most of those are factory loaded ammo that had the same results as pictured above.

one thing i should mention is that, in the two pictures one group is far off to the right of the target. I intentionally shot to the right because some of the other shots got close to each other and i was afraid i would hit another hole and not be able to tell what was what.

After i free floated the barrel earlier, i noticed that when i installed the action back into the stock, it rocks back and forth on the recoil lug area. When i tighten up the recoil lug screw, the barrel is very close to the fore arm. When i tighen up the screw in front of the trigger guard it brings the barrel away from the fore arm. I only snugged up the two screws that hold on the trigger guard. especially the one that goes to the tang area. Is this normal?

Thanks

ETA: could you please explain the text i highlighted in red a little more. I totally dont understand you mean. forgive me of my ignorance on Precision rifle
Combat_Jack  [Team Member]
3/1/2013 2:31:13 AM
Get a Ruger laminated stock and try again. The factory laminates are actually pretty good and very stiff.
TZapp  [Team Member]
3/1/2013 3:22:31 AM
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Get a Ruger laminated stock and try again. The factory laminates are actually pretty good and very stiff.


Why buy a new stock yet? The one i have now is solid still. Do you think the stock is the culprit in my accuracy issues?

I just relived a shit ton of pressure off of the barrel that was being added by the fore arm. Ill bet that the zero is off now

Combat_Jack  [Team Member]
3/1/2013 3:53:47 AM
If it isn't the stock, sell the rifle and get a Winchester. Rugers are... off. I can't get mine to shoot even with a Douglas barrel added onto it. 1.5" gun with every factory load.
TZapp  [Team Member]
3/1/2013 4:15:33 AM
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
If it isn't the stock, sell the rifle and get a Winchester. Rugers are... off. I can't get mine to shoot even with a Douglas barrel added onto it. 1.5" gun with every factory load.


Ah.....You have had the same issues then. The Barrel didnt help, or just would get you under 1.5"

Ever try to handload for it?

Combat_Jack  [Team Member]
3/1/2013 4:29:36 AM
Originally Posted By TZapp:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
If it isn't the stock, sell the rifle and get a Winchester. Rugers are... off. I can't get mine to shoot even with a Douglas barrel added onto it. 1.5" gun with every factory load.


Ah.....You have had the same issues then. The Barrel didnt help, or just would get you under 1.5"

Ever try to handload for it?



Frankly I don't care enough. I killed a buffalo with it and dad killed a deer and I'm going to sell it and get another SAKO.

Just not impressed with the Ruger action.
Green_Canoe  [Member]
3/1/2013 8:52:23 AM
Originally Posted By TZapp:
After i free floated the barrel earlier, i noticed that when i installed the action back into the stock, it rocks back and forth on the recoil lug area. When i tighten up the recoil lug screw, the barrel is very close to the fore arm. When i tighen up the screw in front of the trigger guard it brings the barrel away from the fore arm. I only snugged up the two screws that hold on the trigger guard. especially the one that goes to the tang area. Is this normal?


Not normal for a rifle you want to shoot accurately. The stock to action fit has to be rock solid for repeatability. Any squishiness = inconsistency.

Based on your description of the stock I think the problem lies there but another issue might be the barrel. If it is a sporter weight barrel you could be faced with some heat warpage issues. I use ultralight hunting rifles. Both my ultralights have very, very thin barrels. I get two good shopts then my POI starts to drift. I let them cool and two more shots will go on top of the first two shots. Try making sure your barrel isn't drifting due to heating by trying groups where every shot is from a cold barrel.
TZapp  [Team Member]
3/1/2013 1:42:58 PM
Originally Posted By Green_Canoe:
Originally Posted By TZapp:
After i free floated the barrel earlier, i noticed that when i installed the action back into the stock, it rocks back and forth on the recoil lug area. When i tighten up the recoil lug screw, the barrel is very close to the fore arm. When i tighen up the screw in front of the trigger guard it brings the barrel away from the fore arm. I only snugged up the two screws that hold on the trigger guard. especially the one that goes to the tang area. Is this normal?


Not normal for a rifle you want to shoot accurately. The stock to action fit has to be rock solid for repeatability. Any squishiness = inconsistency.

Based on your description of the stock I think the problem lies there but another issue might be the barrel. If it is a sporter weight barrel you could be faced with some heat warpage issues. I use ultralight hunting rifles. Both my ultralights have very, very thin barrels. I get two good shopts then my POI starts to drift. I let them cool and two more shots will go on top of the first two shots. Try making sure your barrel isn't drifting due to heating by trying groups where every shot is from a cold barrel.


Good advice, I give it a try.

Thanks