Need advice (AICS 2.0 - Remington 700 SPS AAC-SD) Scope Mounting + Glass Bedding?
So I'm in the process of building a rifle. I'm doing it little by little, but I'm trying to acquire a little knowledge of how best to approach this project. I've already read a few things on the 'net, but I'd like to see what the hive thinks.
I know the 700 to AICS is a simple installation, but I am hoping to achieve the maximum possible accuracy that this rifle is capable of. I have decided to go with the 20" SPS AAC-SD simply for the purpose of suppressing (now that suppressors are legal in Michigan) and not creating a ridiculous OAL.
My questions are;
What should I have done to the actual action/rifle to increase it's accuracy potential?
Although the mating of the 700 to the AICS is simple, should I have it bedded? I have read that it's worth doing.
I'm looking at the LaRue Tactical 700 Rail, would the 20MOA model be beneficial, or would it essentially be over-kill due to the shorter barrel limiting accuracy at distance?
Who does good work on precision rifles?
What I Have:
AICS 2.0, Short Action
AI Target Adjustable Butt Plate
AI Thumb Screws for Cheek Weld Adjustment
TAB Quick Detach Rifle Sling
Parker Hale Fixed Spigot Bipod
What I Want:
Remington 700 SPS AAC-SD
AAC BRAKEOUT Comp
AAC 7.62-SDN-6 Suppressor
LaRue 700 Rail
I haven't yet decided on what glass to go with, but I'm considering putting a rail on my 700 TWS as well, and then starting out with buying one really nice optic that I can swap between platforms for now.
Thanks for the help and insight!
Not sure why you want the 2.0 on a S/A, unless it is for compact storage. I have a 2.0 on my 300WM, as it allows me to take bolt out easily.
My optic parts are Badger Ordnance. I run a 20MOA base, there is no downside AFAIK.
Now I am running the AAXC TitanQD silencer, replacing the 762-SD. I need to take a new pic.
Mostly to keep it more discreet in a smaller case. I've half-ass thought about using a spare acoustic guitar case I have.
I believe I've heard that with a 20MOA base you can 'run out of adjustment' on your scope, which is my only concern.
Love your rifle. Tell me about the bolt handle... I dig it more than the traditional Remington style.
You could have your Remington blueprinted to increase its potential. IIRC the AICS does not need bedded as its a chassis system. And for the 20moa base running out of adjustment I'm going to assume you mean getting a 100yd zero. That's usually the case with scope with low internal adjustment.
ETA: "Would the 20MOA model be beneficial, or would it essentially be over-kill due to the shorter barrel limiting accuracy at distance?"
It does not limit accuracy at any distance. It increases your distance you can shoot.
Originally Posted By Rod_Fitswell:
Mostly to keep it more discreet in a smaller case. I've half-ass thought about using a spare acoustic guitar case I have.
I believe I've heard that with a 20MOA base you can 'run out of adjustment' on your scope, which is my only concern.
Love your rifle. Tell me about the bolt handle... I dig it more than the traditional Remington style.
Arizona Precision on the BH.
I can dial in all the way to 1000 yards, so no problem there. Make sure your scope has plenty of elevation. I think it is the other way around ,without the 20 MOA base you can run out of adjustment.
Originally Posted By D-RAS03:
You could have your Remington blueprinted to increase its potential. IIRC the AICS does not need bedded as its a chassis system. And for the 20moa base running out of adjustment I'm going to assume you mean getting a 100yd zero. That's usually the case with scope with low internal adjustment.
ETA: "Would the 20MOA model be beneficial, or would it essentially be over-kill due to the shorter barrel limiting accuracy at distance?"
It does not limit accuracy at any distance. It increases your distance you can shoot.
What exactly does "Blueprinting" entail? The only 'precision' rifle I have is a 700 TWS, and other than that I'm mostly into assault rifles... the whole precision rifle game is somewhat new to me as far as immersing myself into it fully.
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Originally Posted By Rod_Fitswell:
Mostly to keep it more discreet in a smaller case. I've half-ass thought about using a spare acoustic guitar case I have.
I believe I've heard that with a 20MOA base you can 'run out of adjustment' on your scope, which is my only concern.
Love your rifle. Tell me about the bolt handle... I dig it more than the traditional Remington style.
Arizona Precision on the BH.
I
can dial in all the way to 1000 yards, so no problem there. Make sure
your scope has plenty of elevation. I think it is the other way around
,without the 20 MOA base you can run out of adjustment.
Ok, very good... I'll go with the 20MOA. I'm kinda thinking NightForce or a higher end Leupold for the glass, so I'd assume they should have plenty of elevation, but I'll do some investigating.
I'll look into Arizona Precision. I dig it.
Blueprinting is basically squaring everything up. Making to exact specs. Well worth it for Remington.
ETA: If your looking between a Nightforce of Leupold. Go Nightforce. Get the F1 if you can. Much better than a Leupold.
Originally Posted By D-RAS03:
Blueprinting is basically squaring everything up. Making to exact specs. Well worth it for Remington.
ETA: If your looking between a Nightforce of Leupold. Go Nightforce. Get the F1 if you can. Much better than a Leupold.
Ok, thanks. I'll look into it... I'm really not ruling anything out... as I said, I'd rather spend the coin on one scope that I can swap between my rifles than have several mid-level scopes dedicated to each rifle.
sticking it into a chassis system wont necessarily make it more accurate. Stocks are all about fitment to you the shooter which in turn makes you more consistent with it. Before you drop 1,000 bucks on a stock I suggest you try and get behind one to see if you actually like it.
I very much dislike the AICS Stock. Plus the fact they weigh a ton doesn't help.(and yes I've owned a 2.0 before on my AIAW)
As for rails I very much like the seekins 20moa rail. They come with an integral recoil lug.
As for the rifle itself theres not a ton you can do...itll probably shoot about .75MOA out of the box. Getting it blueprinted is pretty much pointless without getting a new barrel installed.
If you really want to get the most out of that rifle take all the money you were gonna spend on the stock and put it into your glass and ammo. Then take a class.
Originally Posted By rrflyer:
sticking it into a chassis system wont necessarily make it more accurate. Stocks are all about fitment to you the shooter which in turn makes you more consistent with it. Before you drop 1,000 bucks on a stock I suggest you try and get behind one to see if you actually like it.
I very much dislike the AICS Stock. Plus the fact they weigh a ton doesn't help.(and yes I've owned a 2.0 before on my AIAW)
As for rails I very much like the seekins 20moa rail. They come with an integral recoil lug.
As for the rifle itself theres not a ton you can do...itll probably shoot about .75MOA out of the box. Getting it blueprinted is pretty much pointless without getting a new barrel installed.
If you really want to get the most out of that rifle take all the money you were gonna spend on the stock and put it into your glass and ammo. Then take a class.
I already have the stock, I dig the feel of it... checked one out before I bought it.
The purpose of a chassis is to eliminate the need for bedding. That being said, sometimes bedding an action to a chassis can improve accuracy. This factor depends more on the action (which is supposed to be straight) than the chassis.
Blueprinting/truing the action is really a waste unless you go with a new barrel. It's a gamble whether or not all that machine work will improve accuracy now that the barrel does not fit the newly blueprinted action properly. The receiver and barrel no longer "fit" because truing the action is done by cutting metal out. Although a proper truing job only removes enough metal to square up the critical surfaces and clean up the threads, you still have a sloppy fit with a factory barrel. Most remington barrels do not have enough meat at the breech for a full set-back, which is the re-machining of the breech of the barrel and re-cutting the chamber to match.
Some potential improvements you can make without risking an ineffective or detrimental modification are re-crowning, lapping the lugs (headspace-permitting), and load-development. If you plan on doing any work that is more intensive than that, you'll minimize the redundant work by doing it all at once. If you bed the action into the chassis, it will need to be re-done if the action is trued.
I apologize if I am wrong, but it sounds like you haven't had the rifle too long. Do you know how accurate it is? Will it shoot better than you right now? There are many bone-stock Rem 700s out there that shoot very well. One of the best modifications you can do is take a precision rifle class- the money you spend there will improve every rifle you pick up.
Originally Posted By p0p0k0pf:
The purpose of a chassis is to eliminate the need for bedding. That being said, sometimes bedding an action to a chassis can improve accuracy. This factor depends more on the action (which is supposed to be straight) than the chassis.
Blueprinting/truing the action is really a waste unless you go with a new barrel. It's a gamble whether or not all that machine work will improve accuracy now that the barrel does not fit the newly blueprinted action properly. The receiver and barrel no longer "fit" because truing the action is done by cutting metal out. Although a proper truing job only removes enough metal to square up the critical surfaces and clean up the threads, you still have a sloppy fit with a factory barrel. Most remington barrels do not have enough meat at the breech for a full set-back, which is the re-machining of the breech of the barrel and re-cutting the chamber to match.
Some potential improvements you can make without risking an ineffective or detrimental modification are re-crowning, lapping the lugs (headspace-permitting), and load-development. If you plan on doing any work that is more intensive than that, you'll minimize the redundant work by doing it all at once. If you bed the action into the chassis, it will need to be re-done if the action is trued.
I apologize if I am wrong, but it sounds like you haven't had the rifle too long. Do you know how accurate it is? Will it shoot better than you right now? There are many bone-stock Rem 700s out there that shoot very well. One of the best modifications you can do is take a precision rifle class- the money you spend there will improve every rifle you pick up.
This right here is huge. Just put the rifle together and go shoot and see how she does. You may not need to do any extra work. A lot of people these days are doing all the aftermarket/customizing before they even shoot the rifle. After you put a couple hundred rounds down range you will have an idea on what needs changed.
Originally Posted By D-RAS03:
Originally Posted By p0p0k0pf:
The purpose of a chassis is to eliminate the need for bedding. That being said, sometimes bedding an action to a chassis can improve accuracy. This factor depends more on the action (which is supposed to be straight) than the chassis.
Blueprinting/truing the action is really a waste unless you go with a new barrel. It's a gamble whether or not all that machine work will improve accuracy now that the barrel does not fit the newly blueprinted action properly. The receiver and barrel no longer "fit" because truing the action is done by cutting metal out. Although a proper truing job only removes enough metal to square up the critical surfaces and clean up the threads, you still have a sloppy fit with a factory barrel. Most remington barrels do not have enough meat at the breech for a full set-back, which is the re-machining of the breech of the barrel and re-cutting the chamber to match.
Some potential improvements you can make without risking an ineffective or detrimental modification are re-crowning, lapping the lugs (headspace-permitting), and load-development. If you plan on doing any work that is more intensive than that, you'll minimize the redundant work by doing it all at once. If you bed the action into the chassis, it will need to be re-done if the action is trued.
I apologize if I am wrong, but it sounds like you haven't had the rifle too long. Do you know how accurate it is? Will it shoot better than you right now? There are many bone-stock Rem 700s out there that shoot very well. One of the best modifications you can do is take a precision rifle class- the money you spend there will improve every rifle you pick up.
This right here is huge. Just put the rifle together and go shoot and see how she does. You may not need to do any extra work. A lot of people these days are doing all the aftermarket/customizing before they even shoot the rifle. After you put a couple hundred rounds down range you will have an idea on what needs changed.
Completely agree, I was just figuring if I'm getting the rail mounted and a 'smith will have it, why not get whatever else done if it needs to be?
Good advice, though.
Paying a smith to install your scope rail would be like paying a mechanic to install a bumper sticker. There are 4 small screw that hold it in place, couldn't get much easier. If you want to go a little extra and bed the rail, here is a very easy tutorial to do it yourself at home.
Scope rail mounting and bedding.
The larue rail is pretty nice, but its also pretty pricey and doesn't do anything extra for the money. The weaver rail in the tutorial is also nice and IIRC its under $40. There's also EGW that will come in well under $100. If you want to spend a bit more go Seekins or a Nightforce rail.
Also, I'd abandon the idea of one scope you can switch between rifles. A precision rifle is not a 3 gun carbine or semi auto battle rifle. QD is great in theory and can work well on Semi auto carbines and the like, but when you are talking about a precision rifle you are not doing yourself any favors removing and reinstalling that scope. If you are switching between rifles odds are pretty good the rails are just a tiny bit different, but that smidge of adjustment to fit the different rail just threw your zero and RTZ guarantee out the window. Also, each rifle is going to need its own zero and would you rather spend your time shooting to improve and shooting for groups/score or re-zeroing everytime you switch the scope. Get the best glass you can reasonably afford and some good rings like Seekins and get that scope mounted solidly and surely. Consistency is critical if you want to really reach the accuracy potential of that rifle and switching parts around is the opposite of consistency.
The one thing I would look at changing is to put a Timney 510 trigger in, but before you do that get a few hundred rounds off with the factory trigger. Adjust it carefully if you know how, or have a smith do it otherwise and see if the factory trigger will hold its adjustment and is worth keeping or needs to be switched out.
Originally Posted By knight_dive:
Paying a smith to install your scope rail would be like paying a mechanic to install a bumper sticker. There are 4 small screw that hold it in place, couldn't get much easier. If you want to go a little extra and bed the rail, here is a very easy tutorial to do it yourself at home.
Scope rail mounting and bedding.
The larue rail is pretty nice, but its also pretty pricey and doesn't do anything extra for the money. The weaver rail in the tutorial is also nice and IIRC its under $40. There's also EGW that will come in well under $100. If you want to spend a bit more go Seekins or a Nightforce rail.
Also, I'd abandon the idea of one scope you can switch between rifles. A precision rifle is not a 3 gun carbine or semi auto battle rifle. QD is great in theory and can work well on Semi auto carbines and the like, but when you are talking about a precision rifle you are not doing yourself any favors removing and reinstalling that scope. If you are switching between rifles odds are pretty good the rails are just a tiny bit different, but that smidge of adjustment to fit the different rail just threw your zero and RTZ guarantee out the window. Also, each rifle is going to need its own zero and would you rather spend your time shooting to improve and shooting for groups/score or re-zeroing everytime you switch the scope. Get the best glass you can reasonably afford and some good rings like Seekins and get that scope mounted solidly and surely. Consistency is critical if you want to really reach the accuracy potential of that rifle and switching parts around is the opposite of consistency.
The one thing I would look at changing is to put a Timney 510 trigger in, but before you do that get a few hundred rounds off with the factory trigger. Adjust it carefully if you know how, or have a smith do it otherwise and see if the factory trigger will hold its adjustment and is worth keeping or needs to be switched out.
Good info here... the LaRue rail is only $75, so not terrible... I wasn't aware that the installation was that easy, though. Very cool. I kinda felt the same way about moving the glass around, it was an idea I had picked up from Magpul's "Art of the Precision Rifle".
Thanks for the insight... Good things to think about.
The trick to using one scope on multiple (bolt) rifles is having great QD rings. Swapping from a bolt gun to an AR is tricky due to different mount heights.
Ive seen the Precision rifle DVD and I think its good advice, but be prepaired to fine tune your zero if youve got cheap rings like I do.
Personally, I like the LaRue rail. Overkill? .. perhaps, but I'd do it again.
Originally Posted By Chrome308:
Personally, I like the LaRue rail. Overkill? .. perhaps, but I'd do it again.
It's a quality piece without doubt. It just doesn't do anything for $75 (I thought it was closer to $100, but its been a while since I looked ) that the weaver doesn't do for <$40.
FWIW the chassis systems boast even stresses with the aluminum v-block. I glass bedded mine and did not see too much improvment in the accuracy department but, I have less if any flyers now and the bolt closes and runs silky smooth even with the action torqued down hard.
The down side being you are pretty much marrying that expensive stock to that action.
My opinion is that the short bbl is exactly why you get the 20 MOA base.
Originally Posted By Chrome308:
The trick to using one scope on multiple (bolt) rifles is having great QD rings. Swapping from a bolt gun to an AR is tricky due to different mount heights.
Ive seen the Precision rifle DVD and I think its good advice, but be prepaired to fine tune your zero if youve got cheap rings like I do.
Personally, I like the LaRue rail. Overkill? .. perhaps, but I'd do it again.
If I do it, I'd probably go with a LaRue QD mount for the scope. I have a bunch of their stuff on my AR's and I dig it. As it stands right now, I have glass on everything else, so this would be the only rifle to use this scope until I get something else... but when I get something else, it'd be nice knowing that I can just swap the glass, re-zero and go.
Originally Posted By t_kothmann:
FWIW the chassis systems boast even stresses with the aluminum v-block. I glass bedded mine and did not see too much improvment in the accuracy department but, I have less if any flyers now and the bolt closes and runs silky smooth even with the action torqued down hard.
The down side being you are pretty much marrying that expensive stock to that action.
My opinion is that the short bbl is exactly why you get the 20 MOA base.
Good thoughts... I'm not too worried about having it married up as if I ever changed anything, it might be the barrel. I usually get things the way I like them, then leave it alone. If I wanted to do something else, I'd just build another rifle. Seems like a lot of folks are in favor of the 20MOA base, so I'll go that route, too.
A barrel replacement will never achieve its full potential without truing the action along with it. It will need to be re-bedded if the action is trued.
Originally Posted By p0p0k0pf:
A barrel replacement will never achieve its full potential without truing the action along with it. It will need to be re-bedded if the action is trued.
Good to know... I'll go with the suggestions to just shoot it for a while, take some classes, and then later I'll investigate the possible need to rebarrel and possibly bed the rifle.
Originally Posted By t_kothmann:
FWIW the chassis systems boast even stresses with the aluminum v-block. I glass bedded mine and did not see too much improvment in the accuracy department but, I have less if any flyers now and the bolt closes and runs silky smooth even with the action torqued down hard.
The down side being you are pretty much marrying that expensive stock to that action.
My opinion is that the short bbl is exactly why you get the 20 MOA base.
I'm confused about the part that I have bolded. Can you please clarify?
Originally Posted By Rod_Fitswell:
Originally Posted By t_kothmann:
FWIW the chassis systems boast even stresses with the aluminum v-block. I glass bedded mine and did not see too much improvment in the accuracy department but, I have less if any flyers now and the bolt closes and runs silky smooth even with the action torqued down hard.
The down side being you are pretty much marrying that expensive stock to that action.
My opinion is that the short bbl is exactly why you get the 20 MOA base.
Good thoughts... I'm not too worried about having it married up as if I ever changed anything, it might be the barrel. I usually get things the way I like them, then leave it alone. If I wanted to do something else, I'd just build another rifle. Seems like a lot of folks are in favor of the 20MOA base, so I'll go that route, too.
What is the max distance you plan on shooting the rifle?
Personally, I found no use for a 20 MOA base. I have a 0 MOA on my rifle, and can shoot at over 1000 yards with the scope I have. Realistically, I most likely won't ever get the opportunity to shoot past 700 yards, and even that will be uncommon. Most of my shooting will be under 500 yards.
Originally Posted By Justin3:
Originally Posted By t_kothmann:
FWIW the chassis systems boast even stresses with the aluminum v-block. I glass bedded mine and did not see too much improvment in the accuracy department but, I have less if any flyers now and the bolt closes and runs silky smooth even with the action torqued down hard.
The down side being you are pretty much marrying that expensive stock to that action.
My opinion is that the short bbl is exactly why you get the 20 MOA base.
I'm confused about the part that I have bolded. Can you please clarify?
I'm confused to. A shorter barrel will give you less velocity. A 20moa rail won't make up for that.
Originally Posted By D-RAS03:
Originally Posted By Justin3:
Originally Posted By t_kothmann:
FWIW the chassis systems boast even stresses with the aluminum v-block. I glass bedded mine and did not see too much improvment in the accuracy department but, I have less if any flyers now and the bolt closes and runs silky smooth even with the action torqued down hard.
The down side being you are pretty much marrying that expensive stock to that action.
My opinion is that the short bbl is exactly why you get the 20 MOA base.
I'm confused about the part that I have bolded. Can you please clarify?
I'm confused to. A shorter barrel will give you less velocity. A 20moa rail won't make up for that.
I think he means to say since the bullet has less velocity it will drop more and you will have to adjust more elevation and to make up for that elevation, you need the 20 MOA base.
Originally Posted By TheTacticalCoyote:
Originally Posted By D-RAS03:
Originally Posted By Justin3:
Originally Posted By t_kothmann:
FWIW the chassis systems boast even stresses with the aluminum v-block. I glass bedded mine and did not see too much improvment in the accuracy department but, I have less if any flyers now and the bolt closes and runs silky smooth even with the action torqued down hard.
The down side being you are pretty much marrying that expensive stock to that action.
My opinion is that the short bbl is exactly why you get the 20 MOA base.
I'm confused about the part that I have bolded. Can you please clarify?
I'm confused to. A shorter barrel will give you less velocity. A 20moa rail won't make up for that.
I think he means to say since the bullet has less velocity it will drop more and you will have to adjust more elevation and to make up for that elevation, you need the 20 MOA base.
You would be subsonic by that point. What would it matter?
Originally Posted By D-RAS03:
Originally Posted By TheTacticalCoyote:
Originally Posted By D-RAS03:
Originally Posted By Justin3:
Originally Posted By t_kothmann:
FWIW the chassis systems boast even stresses with the aluminum v-block. I glass bedded mine and did not see too much improvment in the accuracy department but, I have less if any flyers now and the bolt closes and runs silky smooth even with the action torqued down hard.
The down side being you are pretty much marrying that expensive stock to that action.
My opinion is that the short bbl is exactly why you get the 20 MOA base.
I'm confused about the part that I have bolded. Can you please clarify?
I'm confused to. A shorter barrel will give you less velocity. A 20moa rail won't make up for that.
I think he means to say since the bullet has less velocity it will drop more and you will have to adjust more elevation and to make up for that elevation, you need the 20 MOA base.
You would be subsonic by that point. What would it matter?
He might need the extra elevation at shorter ranges than a 26" barrel, but that increases the desireability of the 20 moa rail. Besides, they don't cost much if anything more than a 0 moa rail and as long as you have enough elevation travel to zero at 100 yards there's no downside to the 20 moa rail, so why not use it.
edited because auto spell correct sucks
Originally Posted By knight_dive:
Originally Posted By D-RAS03:
Originally Posted By TheTacticalCoyote:
Originally Posted By D-RAS03:
Originally Posted By Justin3:
Originally Posted By t_kothmann:
FWIW the chassis systems boast even stresses with the aluminum v-block. I glass bedded mine and did not see too much improvment in the accuracy department but, I have less if any flyers now and the bolt closes and runs silky smooth even with the action torqued down hard.
The down side being you are pretty much marrying that expensive stock to that action.
My opinion is that the short bbl is exactly why you get the 20 MOA base.
I'm confused about the part that I have bolded. Can you please clarify?
I'm confused to. A shorter barrel will give you less velocity. A 20moa rail won't make up for that.
I think he means to say since the bullet has less velocity it will drop more and you will have to adjust more elevation and to make up for that elevation, you need the 20 MOA base.
You would be subsonic by that point. What would it matter?
He might need the extra elevation at shorter ranges than a 26" barrel, but that increases the desireability of the 20 moa rail. Besides, they don't cost much if anything more than a 0 moa rail and as long as you have enough elevation travel to zero at 100 yards there's no downside to the 20 moa rail, so why not use it.
edited because auto spell correct sucks
I'm all for a 20moa rail on everything. No reason not to have one unless you can't get a 100yd zero. I think I just misunderstood what he was saying.
Originally Posted By Justin3:
Originally Posted By Rod_Fitswell:
Originally Posted By t_kothmann:
FWIW the chassis systems boast even stresses with the aluminum v-block. I glass bedded mine and did not see too much improvment in the accuracy department but, I have less if any flyers now and the bolt closes and runs silky smooth even with the action torqued down hard.
The down side being you are pretty much marrying that expensive stock to that action.
My opinion is that the short bbl is exactly why you get the 20 MOA base.
Good thoughts... I'm not too worried about having it married up as if I ever changed anything, it might be the barrel. I usually get things the way I like them, then leave it alone. If I wanted to do something else, I'd just build another rifle. Seems like a lot of folks are in favor of the 20MOA base, so I'll go that route, too.
What is the max distance you plan on shooting the rifle?
Personally, I found no use for a 20 MOA base. I have a 0 MOA on my rifle, and can shoot at over 1000 yards with the scope I have. Realistically, I most likely won't ever get the opportunity to shoot past 700 yards, and even that will be uncommon. Most of my shooting will be under 500 yards.
Realistically I'm looking at getting to shoot at around 500 yards frequently, but I'd like the rifle to be capable of shooting at further distances if I ever get the opportunity.