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 how much would you pay for a rifle that would shoot 1/4-3/8 moa out of the box??
9secondsflat  [Member]
7/12/2007 9:01:21 AM
what would you be willing to shell out in order to buy a rifle that would out of the box shoot 1/4-3/8 moa no excuses...

charliehorse794  [Member]
7/12/2007 9:44:42 AM
Most good quality rifles are capable of those kind of groups. It all depends on the shooter. Give some folks a Sako, AI, Custom job, etc. and they will just not be able to do the rifle justice. So to answer your question......some folks can do it with a $ 600 Savage.
bill3508  [Team Member]
7/12/2007 9:52:09 AM
A lot depends on the ammo also. If more people would load their own they would shoot more itty bitty groups.

Bill3508
rdblan2  [Team Member]
7/12/2007 9:52:17 AM
I wouldn't pay much more than what I paid for my el-cheapo Savage with factory Tupperware stock.

uafgrad  [Team Member]
7/12/2007 11:54:58 PM

Originally Posted By charliehorse794:
Most good quality rifles are capable of those kind of groups. It all depends on the shooter. Give some folks a Sako, AI, Custom job, etc. and they will just not be able to do the rifle justice. So to answer your question......some folks can do it with a $ 600 Savage.


I call bullshit
Most rifles are factory production rifles are not capable of .25MOA accuracy out of the box
If that was the case you would see EVERY manufacture touting that their gun can shoot groups that small.

I would beat that you couldnt randomly grab any production rifles (not custom shop or ones that recieve treatment) and shoot groups like that with a rest.


I have yet to hear of anyone who shoots 1/4 inch groups at 100 yds with a stock savage on a consistent basis, have you?
shotfirstasklater  [Member]
7/12/2007 11:57:05 PM

Originally Posted By charliehorse794:
Most good quality rifles are capable of those kind of groups. It all depends on the shooter. Give some folks a Sako, AI, Custom job, etc. and they will just not be able to do the rifle justice. So to answer your question......some folks can do it with a $ 600 Savage.



+1 on the SAvage I also can do that with my 20 free float scoped from delton $1200 with my reloads. 5 shots
shotfirstasklater  [Member]
7/13/2007 12:00:54 AM

Originally Posted By uafgrad:

Originally Posted By charliehorse794:
Most good quality rifles are capable of those kind of groups. It all depends on the shooter. Give some folks a Sako, AI, Custom job, etc. and they will just not be able to do the rifle justice. So to answer your question......some folks can do it with a $ 600 Savage.


I call bullshit
Most rifles are factory production rifles are not capable of .25MOA accuracy out of the box
If that was the case you would see EVERY manufacture touting that their gun can shoot groups that small.

I would beat that you couldnt randomly grab any production rifles (not custom shop or ones that recieve treatment) and shoot groups like that with a rest.


I have yet to hear of anyone who shoots 1/4 inch groups at 100 yds with a stock savage on a consistent basis, have you?


you can do it with reloads. Reloads weighed on digital scale can be very accurate.
uafgrad  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 12:03:53 AM

Originally Posted By shotfirstasklater:

Originally Posted By uafgrad:

Originally Posted By charliehorse794:
Most good quality rifles are capable of those kind of groups. It all depends on the shooter. Give some folks a Sako, AI, Custom job, etc. and they will just not be able to do the rifle justice. So to answer your question......some folks can do it with a $ 600 Savage.


I call bullshit
Most rifles are factory production rifles are not capable of .25MOA accuracy out of the box
If that was the case you would see EVERY manufacture touting that their gun can shoot groups that small.

I would beat that you couldnt randomly grab any production rifles (not custom shop or ones that recieve treatment) and shoot groups like that with a rest.


I have yet to hear of anyone who shoots 1/4 inch groups at 100 yds with a stock savage on a consistent basis, have you?


you can do it with reloads. Reloads weighed on digital scale can be very accurate.



Really
How many times have you shot a 1/4" group at 100yds?
There is a hell of a lot more work than weighing out a charge on a digital scale to do precision reloading.
What else do you do to your reloads?

Eukatae  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 12:05:03 AM
EH not much, I can't shoot one hole groups of more than 1 round. Course maybe it's the rifles fault!
bill3508  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 12:13:21 AM

Originally Posted By uafgrad:

Originally Posted By shotfirstasklater:

Originally Posted By uafgrad:

Originally Posted By charliehorse794:
Most good quality rifles are capable of those kind of groups. It all depends on the shooter. Give some folks a Sako, AI, Custom job, etc. and they will just not be able to do the rifle justice. So to answer your question......some folks can do it with a $ 600 Savage.


I call bullshit
Most rifles are factory production rifles are not capable of .25MOA accuracy out of the box
If that was the case you would see EVERY manufacture touting that their gun can shoot groups that small.

I would beat that you couldnt randomly grab any production rifles (not custom shop or ones that recieve treatment) and shoot groups like that with a rest.


I have yet to hear of anyone who shoots 1/4 inch groups at 100 yds with a stock savage on a consistent basis, have you?


you can do it with reloads. Reloads weighed on digital scale can be very accurate.



Really
How many times have you shot a 1/4" group at 100yds?
There is a hell of a lot more work than weighing out a charge on a digital scale to do precision reloading.
What else do you do to your reloads?



Oh lord here it comes. LOL. I would put my RCBS 10-10 loads up against any digital scale out there. I use digital for brass work but leave the rest to the 10-10. Though there is a lot more to it than weighing out powder. Good brass prep is just as important as having super consistent powder charges. And then we get into the sorting by neck thickness and consistency, brass weight, etc. Depend how much time you have and how meticulous you want to be. Most rifles will not shoot consistent .25" groups. The consistent part is what most of you are missing here.

Bill3508
P08  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 12:15:22 AM
I have a Savage BVSS .22-250 that I found a good loading for. It is as simple are finding the proper jump from Ogive to throat as well as what powder charge jives with the barrel harmonics. Just shot this group Tuesday night @100 yards. Bone stock Rem VSSF .308 only had the chamber redone due to throat erosion.
Three shots 168gr BTHP match.


Rabbit9  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 12:33:28 AM
The measure of a rifle (and for that matter, a marksman) is not what it can do once or occasionally, but what it can do consistantly "on demand". The best custom rifle builders in the world won't guarentee that level of accuracy. A true .25 MOA rifle is a benchrest level gun.

I'm not saying that you won't get lucky and find a out of the box rifle that just drives tacks, because even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then, but if you find one, go buy a lottery ticket.
charliehorse794  [Member]
7/13/2007 12:39:37 AM

Originally Posted By uafgrad:

Originally Posted By charliehorse794:
Most good quality rifles are capable of those kind of groups. It all depends on the shooter. Give some folks a Sako, AI, Custom job, etc. and they will just not be able to do the rifle justice. So to answer your question......some folks can do it with a $ 600 Savage.


I call bullshit
Most rifles are factory production rifles are not capable of .25MOA accuracy out of the box
If that was the case you would see EVERY manufacture touting that their gun can shoot groups that small.

I would beat that you couldnt randomly grab any production rifles (not custom shop or ones that recieve treatment) and shoot groups like that with a rest.


I have yet to hear of anyone who shoots 1/4 inch groups at 100 yds with a stock savage on a consistent basis, have you?



You can call bullshit all you want but a good rifle will only get you so far. You have to have someone with some skill behind the trigger to get good tight groups. And of course you are not going to be able to do it every time...........not even with a custom rig because somedays you are just off or having a bad day, it happens. So say what you want but a quality factory rifle IS capable of .25 MOA out of the box.
uafgrad  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 2:51:44 AM

Originally Posted By charliehorse794:

Originally Posted By uafgrad:

Originally Posted By charliehorse794:
Most good quality rifles are capable of those kind of groups. It all depends on the shooter. Give some folks a Sako, AI, Custom job, etc. and they will just not be able to do the rifle justice. So to answer your question......some folks can do it with a $ 600 Savage.


I call bullshit
Most rifles are factory production rifles are not capable of .25MOA accuracy out of the box
If that was the case you would see EVERY manufacture touting that their gun can shoot groups that small.

I would beat that you couldnt randomly grab any production rifles (not custom shop or ones that recieve treatment) and shoot groups like that with a rest.


I have yet to hear of anyone who shoots 1/4 inch groups at 100 yds with a stock savage on a consistent basis, have you?



You can call bullshit all you want but a good rifle will only get you so far. You have to have someone with some skill behind the trigger to get good tight groups. And of course you are not going to be able to do it every time...........not even with a custom rig because somedays you are just off or having a bad day, it happens. So say what you want but a quality factory rifle IS capable of .25 MOA out of the box.



Then why on earth do NO custom makers gurantee that their rifles will shoot .25MOA? If a factory stick can do it, then why cant a custom stick?
Just curious
penguinland  [Member]
7/13/2007 7:01:20 AM
To answer the original question I wouldn't spend anything for a 1/4MOA gun because I can't keep 5 rounds at a 1/4MOA except for a lucky group here and there. If I was shooting off of a gun rest then it would be a different story but that's just not real world. I can tell you that I have shot some very expensive rifles and about .40 inch is the best I can do at 100 yards, which is the same as what I can do with my sub $1000 rifle. I would say that if you can get a hold of a rifle at any price that shoots .75 or better your best chance for an increase in accuracy is going to handloads. There is a lot of good match ammo out there but it is hard to beat the quality of a handload if it is done correctly.
bfarrin1  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 7:12:29 AM

Originally Posted By 9secondsflat:
what would you be willing to shell out in order to buy a rifle that would out of the box shoot 1/4-3/8 moa no excuses...


$2500-$3000 for a rifle built by a gunsmith using premium components(on a customer supplied receiver) that would leave the only excuse to be me, the shooter. No optics or scope mounting provisions included.

Prior to the advent of affordable custom actions(more on that later), I had Greg Tannel do a couple of complete builds on 700 actions. 6BR and 308. Ream the raceway, recut the lugs/threads/face/ring, bush bolt body and firing pin hole. Jewell trigger. Grind the receiver O.D. Fit and chamber the barrel. Check the stock inletting to be accurate to the stock centerline, fit and bed the stock.

Either of those rifles will shoot anything I've ever stuck in the chamber into marvelously small groups that makes me think I'm a better shooter than I am.

I think a lot of it is totally mental just knowing that everything is "right", and if I wiff the shot its my own damn fault.

I've got a Lawton XL action on order now, I'm excited to see how "right" it is out of the box. With the cost of these custom actions, if they are "right" - the labor $$ should be dropping considerably. Unfortunately, that doesn't help the good gunsmiths pay the mortgage.

As far as a gunsmith that offers a 1/4 MOA guarantee:

spencerriflebarrels.com/completerifles.htm




24ksports  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 7:43:14 AM
Discussing centerfire rifle application I would spend the money required to get the level of accuracy I need for the mission - however the extensive process required to bench shoot consistantly shoot at the under .4's level has less relation to the rifle compared with shooter skill in field application. Varmit shooting at long range is the closest application outside of military / LEO service I can think of. I can live with MOA accuracy for 80% of my shooting. A tack driver 22LR is by far most appealing to me than a custom centerfire.
DavidC  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 8:14:24 AM
Fn guarantees 1/2 MOA accuracy with the FN SPR A3G with factory Federal GMM ammo. My rifle came with three, 3-shot test targets with the smallest being .14" and the largest being .25"

Best I have been able to do, shooting from a bench @ 100 yards, but using only a bipod (no sandbags, stock support, etc) has been 5 shot groups right at .4" I have shot 10 shot groups at .5", but with 10 rounds I find I tend to open the groups up more than that. It's me and not the rifle.

I paid $1800 for the A3G and don't regret it a bit.
Dano523  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 9:11:02 AM

Originally Posted By 9secondsflat:
what would you be willing to shell out in order to buy a rifle that would out of the box shoot 1/4-3/8 moa no excuses...


To answer you question, the price is $1800.

A Remington 40X does not leave the custom shop until it will print a group under .5 MOA, with most test target groups in the .35 MOA range using factory match ammo (read with a hand tuned load, the rifle will do better then this).
bfarrin1  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 10:53:32 AM

Originally Posted By Dano523:

Originally Posted By 9secondsflat:
what would you be willing to shell out in order to buy a rifle that would out of the box shoot 1/4-3/8 moa no excuses...


To answer you question, the price is $1800.

A Remington 40X does not leave the custom shop until it will print a group under .5 MOA, with most test target groups in the .35 MOA range using factory match ammo (read with a hand tuned load, the rifle will do better then this).


.5" isn't .25-.375"

...and I can't find anything on the custom shop's website with an accuracy guarantee advertised, save one rifle:

www.remington.com/products/firearms/custom_shop/40-x/model_40-XB_tactical.asp

..and its 3/4" 5 shot at 100 yards.

I seem to remember advertisements for .50" groups for rifles under 30 caliber though. But I don't see it anymore. Funny what happens when you largely abandon the custom shop and sponsor a race car instead.

Edit - and the cheapest MSRP is $2265 for a 40-X now.


DavidC  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 11:21:13 AM
You'll find threads on sites like Snipers Hide that talk about FN replacing A3G's that didn't hold 1/2 MOA groups
DV8  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 11:23:25 AM
My K31 is easily capable of that and I only paid $89 for it IIRC.
TexasGunman  [Member]
7/13/2007 11:54:54 AM
Im not a self appointed expert, but have used many different rifles and handguns over the years and still do to this day.

Most rifle and handguns are more accurate than the shooter behind them, like a custom built 1911, I can shoot out the bottom of a coke can at 25 & 35 yards, hand that same handgun to my brothern law & nephews, that 1911 is now shooting 5 & 6" groups.

Same be said with other rifle, now you can tailor load any rifles, once you find out what it likes best, bullet weight and powder used, you may just have a tac drive and not know it.

Another thing, if your using a decent scope vs iron sights, you'll also see the different in accuracy, combined all this together over a period of shooting, you see were Im coming from.

I also have a Savage10, 168gr and 175gr seem to work best, due to the 1/10 twist.
With my 8-40x56 mm scope, I can shoot groups like pictures above, also it mounted on a choate ultimate varmint stock.

Happy shooting & hopefully you'll discover what works best for you and your rifle.


TG
whitetailnut  [Member]
7/13/2007 12:13:49 PM
$2100- Les Baer Super Varmit
cruze5  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 12:26:53 PM
i bought a 550 dollar savage fple2 rifle. standard stock 1/10 twist. did the proper bbl break in, shot 175's throught the rifle primarily. every time i shoot my first group is ok, after that they seem to shrink, quite often i would get a "flier" or i would think i pulled that one. I found out about sharpshooter supply, decided to have alot of work done on it.

bought a 325 dollar stock, with all the adjustments available. butt plate and cheek piece. total cost around 500 bucks. they also installed a new bolt handle trued the action, and installed a competition recoil lug.



im sure you've seen it before:



after i got it back, it my groups did shrink a bit. but i still had the occasional flier.

i still wasn't very confident in the rifle's accuracy, obviously. total cost $1400




about a year later i joined up on SH. and saw the harbinger advertised. i had to have one.

Soo.


total cost over 3k
still my first group is always, not so good. but once i get warmed up. this rifle will consistly shoot hole in hole, if/when i do my part

i believe you are paying for a more rugged, more "consistent" shooting rifle.

one day when i will get a AI rifle from GA precision. i hear they are decent shooting rifles as well

just my experience/ opinion
mjguillory  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 12:41:01 PM
Including scope?
around $1000

I would like to be
willing to shell more,
but I've got to buy
fishing tackle and
car parts too.
RenegadeX  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 12:44:46 PM

Originally Posted By 9secondsflat:
what would you be willing to shell out in order to buy a rifle that would out of the box shoot 1/4-3/8 moa no excuses...



I do not think there exists a rifle that shoots that, with COTS ammo, all ranges, all shots.
uafgrad  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 2:58:11 PM

Originally Posted By DavidC:
Fn guarantees 1/2 MOA accuracy with the FN SPR A3G with factory Federal GMM ammo. My rifle came with three, 3-shot test targets with the smallest being .14" and the largest being .25"

Best I have been able to do, shooting from a bench @ 100 yards, but using only a bipod (no sandbags, stock support, etc) has been 5 shot groups right at .4" I have shot 10 shot groups at .5", but with 10 rounds I find I tend to open the groups up more than that. It's me and not the rifle.

I paid $1800 for the A3G and don't regret it a bit.


Are you going to shoot the summer Smack the Smiley match this year?
DavidC  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 3:16:14 PM

Originally Posted By uafgrad:

Originally Posted By DavidC:
Fn guarantees 1/2 MOA accuracy with the FN SPR A3G with factory Federal GMM ammo. My rifle came with three, 3-shot test targets with the smallest being .14" and the largest being .25"

Best I have been able to do, shooting from a bench @ 100 yards, but using only a bipod (no sandbags, stock support, etc) has been 5 shot groups right at .4" I have shot 10 shot groups at .5", but with 10 rounds I find I tend to open the groups up more than that. It's me and not the rifle.

I paid $1800 for the A3G and don't regret it a bit.


Are you going to shoot the summer Smack the Smiley match this year?


Every time I see that thread I tell myself I should go order a target or four, then something comes up and I forget about until the next time. I'll go click on the thread again
uafgrad  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 8:31:19 PM

Originally Posted By DavidC:

Originally Posted By uafgrad:

Originally Posted By DavidC:
Fn guarantees 1/2 MOA accuracy with the FN SPR A3G with factory Federal GMM ammo. My rifle came with three, 3-shot test targets with the smallest being .14" and the largest being .25"

Best I have been able to do, shooting from a bench @ 100 yards, but using only a bipod (no sandbags, stock support, etc) has been 5 shot groups right at .4" I have shot 10 shot groups at .5", but with 10 rounds I find I tend to open the groups up more than that. It's me and not the rifle.

I paid $1800 for the A3G and don't regret it a bit.


Are you going to shoot the summer Smack the Smiley match this year?


Every time I see that thread I tell myself I should go order a target or four, then something comes up and I forget about until the next time. I'll go click on the thread again



I also meant to add the A3G is not really a production rifle. Every one of them goes through GA Precision before they hit the retail market. Not a full blown custom, but certainly not a rack rifle.
Mike_Mills  [Team Member]
7/13/2007 8:35:53 PM

Originally Posted By uafgrad:
I call bullshit
Most rifles are factory production rifles are not capable of .25MOA accuracy out of the box
If that was the case you would see EVERY manufacture touting that their gun can shoot groups that small.

I would beat that you couldnt randomly grab any production rifles (not custom shop or ones that recieve treatment) and shoot groups like that with a rest.


I have yet to hear of anyone who shoots 1/4 inch groups at 100 yds with a stock savage on a consistent basis, have you?


Yes, I have.

My Remington 40-X ($1200) came with a 0.3" test target.

uafgrad  [Team Member]
7/14/2007 5:04:26 AM

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:

Originally Posted By uafgrad:
I call bullshit
Most rifles are factory production rifles are not capable of .25MOA accuracy out of the box
If that was the case you would see EVERY manufacture touting that their gun can shoot groups that small.

I would beat that you couldnt randomly grab any production rifles (not custom shop or ones that recieve treatment) and shoot groups like that with a rest.


I have yet to hear of anyone who shoots 1/4 inch groups at 100 yds with a stock savage on a consistent basis, have you?


Yes, I have.

My Remington 40-X ($1200) came with a 0.3" test target.



Yet again, a custom shop gun
From the remington website, 40X page

Arguably the most accurate bolt action rifle available today, it's completely handcrafted and made to order in the Remington Custom Shop.


ceylonc  [Member]
7/14/2007 12:19:46 PM
There are a few custom builds and bench/target rifles that will consistantly produce sub .5MOA groups @ 100yds. Problems are as follows:
1) the shooter -- humans aren't perfect and it isn't easy to do anything perfectly 5 times in a row (for a 5-shot group), much less the act of precisely firing a rifle;
2) components -- I'll grant that the materials used today are the best & most consistant used in the history of firearms. However, these components are MAN MADE and therefore subject to imperfections, etc.;
3) conditions -- even when the shooter and components are "perfect", you still have atmospheric influences that can and will affect where the bullet will travel. The most obvious outside influence is wind but you also have altitude, humidity, etc.

Bottom line is that even the world's best marksmen do not reliably print sub .25 groups. Too many variables come into play. While there is a rare breed of shooter who is not only capable of shooting such groups but also has the quality equipment to do so, they still regularly shoot groups in the .5MOA or "worse" range...
Rabbit9  [Team Member]
7/14/2007 12:22:22 PM

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:

Originally Posted By uafgrad:
I call bullshit
Most rifles are factory production rifles are not capable of .25MOA accuracy out of the box
If that was the case you would see EVERY manufacture touting that their gun can shoot groups that small.

I would beat that you couldnt randomly grab any production rifles (not custom shop or ones that recieve treatment) and shoot groups like that with a rest.


I have yet to hear of anyone who shoots 1/4 inch groups at 100 yds with a stock savage on a consistent basis, have you?


Yes, I have.

My Remington 40-X ($1200) came with a 0.3" test target.



Which means that at least ONCE in the life of this rifle, it shot a group, from a machine rest, that STILL didn't measure .25 MOA. If you want to make a point about the accuracy of a Remington Custom Shop rifle, show me the entries in your logbook from the first 500 rnds.
Mike_Mills  [Team Member]
7/14/2007 2:00:48 PM

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:

Originally Posted By uafgrad:
I call bullshit
Most rifles are factory production rifles are not capable of .25MOA accuracy out of the box
If that was the case you would see EVERY manufacture touting that their gun can shoot groups that small.

I would beat that you couldnt randomly grab any production rifles (not custom shop or ones that recieve treatment) and shoot groups like that with a rest.


I have yet to hear of anyone who shoots 1/4 inch groups at 100 yds with a stock savage on a consistent basis, have you?


Yes, I have.

My Remington 40-X ($1200) came with a 0.3" test target.



Which means that at least ONCE in the life of this rifle, it shot a group, from a machine rest, that STILL didn't measure .25 MOA. If you want to make a point about the accuracy of a Remington Custom Shop rifle, show me the entries in your logbook from the first 500 rnds.



Let's see, the original question was out of the box rifles. Don't believe the Remington marketing hype about the 40-X. If you know much about the 40-X, as opposed to other TRULY custom rifles, I think you'd put the 40-X in the factory production class. I do.

From everything I've seen and read, the Savages are about as accurate as it gets. If they would put a decent match rifle stock on a production model, I suspect they would sell a bunch to newbie competitive shooters. As it is, their stocks don't work for match rifle and restocking puts them in the same class as too many others.





how much would you pay for a rifle that would shoot 1/4-3/8 moa out of the box??

what would you be willing to shell out in order to buy a rifle that would out of the box shoot 1/4-3/8 moa no excuses...


Also, the context of the question, as written, was about the rifle NOT the shooter. It does not even restrict the context to factory production, rather it says, "...out of the box."

I have a McBros rifle that I feel is better than 1/2" but I cannot shoot that well to prove it. It was that accurate right out of the box. Yes, it's a McBros "production" rifle. Yes, it's a $4k rifle.

This is important to me because I (me) cannot really shoot 1/4" groups, period. I do not have the benchrest training to do so. 1/2" I can do, but it is very difficult.

Rabbit9  [Team Member]
7/14/2007 3:05:43 PM

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:
From everything I've seen and read, the Savages are about as accurate as it gets. If they would put a decent match rifle stock on a production model, I suspect they would sell a bunch to newbie competitive shooters. As it is, their stocks don't work for match rifle and restocking puts them in the same class as too many others.







Factory Savage precision rifle with accu-trigger and your choice of McMillan or HS Precision stocks.
Minuteman419  [Team Member]
7/14/2007 3:40:18 PM

Originally Posted By bfarrin1:

As far as a gunsmith that offers a 1/4 MOA guarantee:

spencerriflebarrels.com/completerifles.htm



I have had 2 rifles worked by him and have been to his shop on several occasions.

The rifles will shoot better than I am capable of.

Danny

Mike_Mills  [Team Member]
7/14/2007 9:14:34 PM

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:

www.savagearms.com/images/centerfire/lawenf/new_10FP-LE2.jpg

www.savagearms.com/images/centerfire/lawenf/10FPHSPrec.jpg


Factory Savage precision rifle with accu-trigger and your choice of McMillan or HS Precision stocks.



I guess I don't consider either of those to be "decent" match rifle stocks. There's no adjustable butt plate, no adjustable handstop, no adjustable cheek piece,...
bfarrin1  [Team Member]
7/15/2007 7:27:54 AM

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:
I guess I don't consider either of those to be "decent" match rifle stocks. There's no adjustable butt plate, no adjustable handstop, no adjustable cheek piece,...


Oddly enough, I don't consider a decent match rifle stock to have adjustable buttplates, or cheekpieces.

If its your match rifle, it should fit YOU, the more shit you've got to fiddle with is more shit to break or get misadjusted.

charliehorse794  [Member]
7/15/2007 11:43:42 AM

Originally Posted By uafgrad:

Originally Posted By charliehorse794:

Originally Posted By uafgrad:

Originally Posted By charliehorse794:
Most good quality rifles are capable of those kind of groups. It all depends on the shooter. Give some folks a Sako, AI, Custom job, etc. and they will just not be able to do the rifle justice. So to answer your question......some folks can do it with a $ 600 Savage.


I call bullshit
Most rifles are factory production rifles are not capable of .25MOA accuracy out of the box
If that was the case you would see EVERY manufacture touting that their gun can shoot groups that small.

I would beat that you couldnt randomly grab any production rifles (not custom shop or ones that recieve treatment) and shoot groups like that with a rest.


I have yet to hear of anyone who shoots 1/4 inch groups at 100 yds with a stock savage on a consistent basis, have you?



You can call bullshit all you want but a good rifle will only get you so far. You have to have someone with some skill behind the trigger to get good tight groups. And of course you are not going to be able to do it every time...........not even with a custom rig because somedays you are just off or having a bad day, it happens. So say what you want but a quality factory rifle IS capable of .25 MOA out of the box.



Then why on earth do NO custom makers gurantee that their rifles will shoot .25MOA? If a factory stick can do it, then why cant a custom stick?
Just curious



The same reason why Lexus does not gurantee that when you buy one of their 80,000 cars that backs up and parks itself that it is guranteed to never have an accident. You can always factor in human error.
timb3  [Team Member]
7/15/2007 12:11:39 PM

Originally Posted By 9secondsflat:
what would you be willing to shell out in order to buy a rifle that would out of the box shoot 1/4-3/8 moa no excuses...



$350. That's what I paid for my Savage 110, and it'll do one hole groups at 100 yards if I do my part and feed it good ammo.
9secondsflat  [Member]
7/16/2007 8:02:50 AM
check out this article

5 shot groups 1/4 and 5 shots 3/8 box stock...


http://www.gunblast.com/Savage-M12PH.htm
cruze5  [Team Member]
7/16/2007 9:04:37 AM
hey look a savage with a flier, sounds famililar
Rob01  [Member]
7/16/2007 10:19:00 AM
I haven't seen any of the one hole Savages at the top of the winners lists at any tactical matches I've been to or heard of. Maybe you guys with those rifle need to get out there and shoot some matches as you should win no problem
septic-tank13  [Team Member]
7/16/2007 11:48:14 PM

Originally Posted By Rob01:
I haven't seen any of the one hole Savages at the top of the winners lists at any tactical matches I've been to or heard of. Maybe you guys with those rifle need to get out there and shoot some matches as you should win no problem


why don't you expand on that a little Rob? why aren't savages showing up at those kinds of events? do you have some insight?



****

derek (OdT, our mod) has a sig line that reads: "You don't see things as they are, you see things as you are. ~Nietzsche" and i'd have to agree with that. what would I be willing to pay? i'd give a few thousand for it. i'm not sure the rifle exists in the $3k range that will remove the outside factors from shooting like the wind, altitude, humidity, the driver, etc. our answers are a reflection of ourselves, therefore you'll get as many answers as posters - especially when the rig doesn't exist...

apparently my thoughts are worth $3k as that is my magic number...
OdT  [Moderator]
7/16/2007 11:57:47 PM

Originally Posted By septic-tank13:
<snip>....our answers are a reflection of ourselves, therefore you'll get as many answers as posters - <snip>...


Ain't that the truth...
Bujesus  [Member]
7/17/2007 12:13:05 AM
Septic,

I am not sure what you meant by your previous statement (serious or sarcastic?). In part, I do aggree with Rob. Recently, I have read many o' people making claims to .25 MOA groups with out-of-the-box Savages and Rem 700's.

If these guns were actually capable of such groups, wouldnt you think that governments would use a $300-700 out-of-box Savage or base-model Remington over a $1,000+ FN SPR, a $2,000+ Sako TRG, or a $4,000+ AI AWP?

The simple fact is that out-of-box Savages and Remington 700's are fantastic rifles FOR THEIR PRICE, but they are by no means sub .25MOA or even .25MOA guns.

I realize that people can post sub .5MOA 3-shot and 5-shot goups, but I would like to see some 10-shot groups.

If I am wrong, the Marine Corp, the FBI, and the rest of the world's special forces teams need to start recruiting ARFcom members because 3/4 (whether legit or bullshit) of the precision rifle forum posters are apparently shooting .25MOA.

Just my opinion (albeit Knob Creek influenced),
CJB
timb3  [Team Member]
7/17/2007 1:03:07 AM
Personally, having grown up shooting since the late '60's, and having owned more guns than I can count at various times between then and now, I don't feel the need to have certain internet self appointed experts believe everything I say about any given thing. No skin off my back. That being said, the really funny part about the savage 110 I have that I mentioned above is that it's just a plain old hunting rifle. It doesn't even have a heavy barrel. Lots of times I think "the common wisdom" about needing to have things just like the military or just like "so and so" the "great competition marksman" is just a bunch of horse poop used primarily for trying to sell people expensive stuff. Some rifles just shoot good right out of the box, and this particular 110 is one of them.

Why does the military use certain rifles? Contracts and politics. Not saying their stuff isn't good. It obviously is. - Nor am I saying that the nice rifles used by many competitors aren't great to have and use. I own some expensive rifles myself. My point is that in my experience, you don't _always_ have to put a bunch of money in a rifle to have it shoot good. Also, sometimes people in certain circles buy what they see others using 'cause they're afraid to be different and get laughed at (sorta like some folks don't want to ride a "rice burner" type motorcycle at a Harley Davidson event, so to speak to use another hobby as an example... even though the rice burner will eat that hawg alive performance wise). That might explain why you might not see people using "bargain" rifles in certain events. It's just not "cool" to do it.

Just some thoughts. As for why _I_ don't use my one hole savage at competition events... it's strictly because I don't care about competition in shooting. At least not at this point in time. I shoot for my own pleasure, and I don't feel like I have anything to prove to anyone.

But I still have a $350 Savage 110 that will do one hole groups when I do my part. Sorry if you don't like that. Are you trying to sell some expensive rifle or something? Why does that bother you?
uafgrad  [Team Member]
7/17/2007 2:20:12 AM

Originally Posted By timb3:
Personally, having grown up shooting since the late '60's, and having owned more guns than I can count at various times between then and now, I don't feel the need to have certain internet self appointed experts believe everything I say about any given thing. No skin off my back. That being said, the really funny part about the savage 110 I have that I mentioned above is that it's just a plain old hunting rifle. It doesn't even have a heavy barrel. Lots of times I think "the common wisdom" about needing to have things just like the military or just like "so and so" the "great competition marksman" is just a bunch of horse poop used primarily for trying to sell people expensive stuff. Some rifles just shoot good right out of the box, and this particular 110 is one of them.

Why does the military use certain rifles? Contracts and politics. Not saying their stuff isn't good. It obviously is. - Nor am I saying that the nice rifles used by many competitors aren't great to have and use. I own some expensive rifles myself. My point is that in my experience, you don't _always_ have to put a bunch of money in a rifle to have it shoot good. Also, sometimes people in certain circles buy what they see others using 'cause they're afraid to be different and get laughed at (sorta like some folks don't want to ride a "rice burner" type motorcycle at a Harley Davidson event, so to speak to use another hobby as an example... even though the rice burner will eat that hawg alive performance wise). That might explain why you might not see people using "bargain" rifles in certain events. It's just not "cool" to do it.

Just some thoughts. As for why _I_ don't use my one hole savage at competition events... it's strictly because I don't care about competition in shooting. At least not at this point in time. I shoot for my own pleasure, and I don't feel like I have anything to prove to anyone.

But I still have a $350 Savage 110 that will do one hole groups when I do my part. Sorry if you don't like that. Are you trying to sell some expensive rifle or something? Why does that bother you?



If I pay for your Smack The Smiley Targets will you shoot with us?
Bujesus  [Member]
7/17/2007 2:28:28 AM
Dear Sir,

Let me repeat myself. I have no problems with Savages. My comments were addressing those who claim unrealistic results. Like I said, for the money, Savages are great guns, but they are not .25MOA out of the box.

Also, I never said anything about "needing" military spec equipment and I am in no way connected to the fire-arms business.

Please look at the title of the thread... "1/4-3/8 moa out of the box" I do believe that the Savage, while being a hell of a gun for the price, fails to meet that requirement. For god's sake, what competition shooter isn't spending AT LEAST $1,500 to get close to .25MOA groups? I seriously doubt that being laughed at is any factor in their decision.

Again, please post some of your 10-shot “one-hole” groups and I will gladly admit that you are right thus stating that Savages are .25MOA out of the box.

Never once did I claim to be an expert so please feel free not to read and/or respond to my posts.

CJB
graywolf  [Team Member]
7/17/2007 9:24:14 AM
about $3,200