What can a Marlin 444 do that a 45-70 can't?

Wondering about the caliber. Pro's and con's?

444 marlin can shoot .429 caliber pistol bullets intended for the 44 mag. 45-70 can't. Of course a .444 marlin can't shoot 45 bullets intended for the 45 Colt or 458 Winchester either. For ease of finding ammo, brass, components I'd go with the .45-70. I'd rather have a .40 caliber If I was going to go smaller than 45-70 in a lever action.

Nothing, the 45-70 is a much more versatile round. From black powder "cowboy" rounds to stuff suitable for elephants and such.

First the 45-70 is a black powder cartridge.
The 444 is a modern cartridge with a much higher pressure capability.
Loaded down to 44 mag velocities it is a plinker
Loaded to is full potential a dangerous game cartridge capable of anything on the North American Continent. and some African Game ( 265 gr and up)
45-70 think nostalgia and rainbow trajectory

.444 has a little better trajectory, but worse bullet selection and performance.

What type of gun are you looking at?

Sending a projectile designed for the 44mag in a 444 is a recipe for failure, literally.

I have a Marlin 45-70 and was looking at a Marlin 444.

I own several Marlins, and was curious about the round.

There's not all that much in it; for North America it really doesn't matter. If you already have a 45-70 levergun the only thing it will give you is another caliber to play with.

I have owned Marlins in multiple calibers. My favorite is the 45/70, and 450 Marlin Magnum, although I have toyed with customs in 50 alaskan and 470 Turnbull. The 444 has proven itself on game, however, from what I have read on numerous articles, the pistol bullets it shoots simply are prone to failure due to the velocity in which they are being driven. The 45/70 can do everything the 444 can do and then some. The 450 Marlin is another option for the big bore fan, although you will not see any real world performance gains over a well loaded 45/70 in the Marlin action. Where the 450 begins to shine is in the single shot and bolt action pressure realm. Just my opinion, others vary greatly, take it with a grain of salt.

-Private Contractor-

The 444 is an amazing, and ridiculously versatile, cartridge. You can load anything from the 180gr LSWCs at .44mag velocity, or go full house with the 330gr or 405gr Beartooth hard cast bullets. My current bullet of choice is the 300gr Hornady XTP over a healthy dose of Hodgdon Benchmark. The times you run into issues are when you try to shove bullets designed for .44mag velocities at 444 Marlin speeds. They tend to come apart quite easily. Thankfully, there is no shortage of bullets on the market designed for the 444 Marlin.

Since owning 45-70 rifles (I have five of them) I have often wondered why anybody felt the need to develop anything else. There is nothing I do with a rifle that the 45-70 can't do. (I'll grant you that it is easier to do some stuff with other calibers, but the 45-70 can do it all).

The 444 can't be any more expensive.

I have a 444 but shoot the 45-70 more.

The only time you have trouble is when you try to make a 428 bullet into a 459 ,or a bullet up to 500 grains .

A 500 grain bullet at 1400 fps has great penetration ,and admitt it thats all you need fior anyrhing,

Bob

You've got to be kidding. The 45-70 can and has taken every large critter in the world. Black powder, well yea, back in the 1800's, but it's certainly a smokeless round today. Today's brass is up to "much higher" pressures. Oh, and with the new gummy tips trajectory is much flatter. Still, with good ole hard cast lead, the starting weight for the 45-70 is greater than those for the .444, heck, the .444 is nothing more than a stretched .44 mag.

The 45-70 can only do all of these wonderful things IF it is hand loaded. SAMMI specs. are the reason for this . The 444 can do what it does with factory ammo. The OP wanted to know the differences.
Just don't use the old Remington 240 gr loads, that bullet was not built for that kind of power.

Saying the 444 is just a stretched 44 magnum is like saying the 45-70 is stretched 45 colt.
It is about case design and case pressure. The 45-70 is and will always be a black powder cartridge. This is the reason Marlin developed the 450. Marlin. To bad it has not really caught on.
Pick up a reloading manual and educate. Energy, velocity, trajectory all factor in.

Lets be realistic and honest here, the 45-70 does everything the .444 does, and more.

It'll shoot lightweights or heavyweights, cast or jacketed, blackpowder or smokeless. The .444 is nice, but fairly pointless. It's also got a bad rep for being a poor big game getter with most factory loads. A guy in PA was recently mauled after plugging a black bear with 3 rounds from a 444. While shot placement always matter, a more powerful cartridge is rarely a poor idea when hunting game widely considered as dangerous.

The 45-70 has and will continue to dominate big bores, it just works. It's still a 200 yard round for the most part (just like the 444), but inside that 200 yards its a heavy hitter.

The assertion all factory loads are lame is just wrong. Garrett and Buffalo Bore are great examples of loads that are murder on both ends of the gun. Expensive? Yes they are. Weak? Good gawd they aren't!

And if you reload, the possibilities for 45-70 are endless.

I believe the boutique loaded high-pressure 45-70 ammunition put a major dent in the .444 Marlin's popularity.

If you select similar bullets, nothing you shoot is going to know the difference between the .444 and .45-70.

That is like saying there is no difference between a .308 and a 300 magnum.
The 45-70 is sort of like a 444 Magnum.

Hodgdon Powder No. 27 Reloading Manual (maximum loads)

Bullet: 300 GR. SFT HP
powder H4198

cartridge: 444 Marlin;
powder grns: 42.5
muzzle velocity: 2082

cartridge: 45-70
powder grns: 60.0 (note: load for Marlin 1895)
muzzle velocity: 2424

What animal are you going to hunt with a .45-70 that you wouldn't hunt with a .444?
What range are you going to shoot with a .45-70 that you wouldn't shoot with a .444?

I'd compare them to the .308 and 7mm08. Pretty similar. The .308 to .330 mag would be comparing the .45-70 to the .460.

Sure if you just look at the numbers the .45-70 has the edge. But when you put it in the field it's not going to be a big deal.

The .444's bad rap came from using improper ammo for the task at hand while the .45-70 good rap came from using the proper ammo for the task. You start using light JHPs designed for .45 Colt velocities in the ..45-70 on grizzlies and it's not going to be as attractive. The .444 with 330 grain hardcast is going to look real good then.

I'm not saying buy a .444 over a .45-70 either. I wouldn't if they were side by side for the same price. I'd sure take a good deal on a nice .444 however.

Join this century. Two firms, Buffalo Bore and Garret produce factory ammo that has been used to kill all of the big critters. Though I do find handloading much more fun, if one does not, he can still have extremely potent ammo. And as to trajectory, Hornady loads it's gummy tips at the factory. Now I haven't bothered to check the trajectory charts, but regardless of rainbow like trajectory or not, when the bullet gets there, the 45-70 will still have considerable more striking power (regardless of how you want to measure it) than the .444. Oh, and folks have been shooting 1000yd targets with 45-70's since the black powder days and still do it today. I've never even heard of a .444 1000yd match.

Do you have anything to add other than the fanboy stuff? I use to be caught up in all these numbers. Then along the way I realized something like the .308 still works fine even though the .300 Uber bests it in all the numbers.

If you have anything to add about how the .444 is going to fall short, with proper ammo, where the .45-70 will succeed I'm waiting to hear it.

The problem with the .444 is bullets, specifically finding heavy jacketed bullets that will hold together at .444 velocities.

The .45-70 has no such problem and can use bullets intended for the .458 win mag if you want to.

I have owned them both, but if you have a .45-70 what occasion would make you choose the .444 over a .45-70 ???

I never said buy a .444 over a .45-70. Look up a few posts and I said I wouldn't unless it was a good deal.

If you happen to have a .444, or just want something different than what everyone and his brother has the .444 is far from useless and is going to do 99% of what the .45-70 does.

Yeah, if you like have dozens of good bullet choices the .444 isn't for you but good bullets are easily available. Hawk makes em up to 300 grain. And what's wrong with the Hornady? For anything bigger than deer I'd use hard cast anyway. That's the whole point of having these bigbores IMO. They already make a nice sized hole and penetrate a mile.

Legit argument!

Perhaps it really comes down to which caliber is most supported by the commercial market.

I've owned both (still have a .444 & love it)
the 45-70 is a more versatile round due to it's bullet weight variety, but what do you plan on shooting with it?

That's always a big part. It's a similar scenario with the .44 mag and .45 Colt. Just reversed lol. The numbers on the.45 Colt loaded to potential in strong modern guns are just as good or better than the .44 mag. But who dominates the market.

Now that I think about it the .44 mag/.45 Colt and .444/.45-70 debates have a lot in common.

You know you can load (in modern strong actions) the .45-70 up to 75% or 80% of the .458 WinMag, right? I would not choose a .444 over a .44 magnum, personally...

The biggest issue was the Marlin wasn't originally cambered in the .45-70. The .444 was developed in 1964 to be the largest cartridge that would fit standard the Marlin 336 action. When they altered the gun to accept the larger rim of the .45-70 in 1972 they killed any real reason for the .444 to exist.

I went .44 Magnum simply due to brass/bullet choices. Sadly, I got rid of it, epic pile of Marlin shit. Couldn't hit a thing with it. Sights were way off (more than a foot at 50 yards), it would group erratic, and "let in two" pretty damned often. And it was a JM stamped gun, too. Thought I had been safe.

The .444 Marlin cannot match the .45-70, not since smaller ammunition companies began offering loads that were designed for the higher pressure capability of the modern 1895 Marlin.
The .45-70 shoots heavier bullets.
Those heavier bullets penetrate deeper and hit harder.
Given the same bullet weight, the .45-70 can match the .444s velocity.
The .444 ammo is more difficult to find.
Yeah, you can use .44-caliber handgun bullets in the .444 Marlin. And for what? Potting away at squirrels or tin cans? The .444 gained a reputation for bullet blow-up with its introductory 240 gr. bullet.
And WHY was the .444 Marlin introduced with such a light bullet? So the ads could proclaim a high velocity. Back in the early 1960s, velocity was everything when it came to advertisinga new cartridge. It was the days of Weatherby, and wildcat cartridges that claimed fantastic velocities. Those were also the days when very few people could afford a chronograph to check those velocities, so what the manufacturers and loading books claimed were taken at face value.
Today, with inexpensive chronographs, shooters can call the bluff of advertisers and loading books.

The .444 Marlin was introduced as adverting hype in the heydays of the .44 Magnum. Early references in magazines even referred to it as the .444 Marlin Magnum. Presumably, Smith & Wesson stepped in and stopped that nonsense.

The .45-70 is a fine hunting cartridge, within the sane maximum range of 200 yards. The .444 Marlin, if used sanely, has that same limitation.

What can the .45-70 do that the .444 Marlin can't? Just about everything ––- to include the firing of a 2-1/2" .410 shotgun shell in its chamber!
No kidding! I've done it myself in my 1895 Marlin.
Not great pattern, but enough to knock off a grouse within 20 feet or so. And you don't have to reload to enjoy this little benefit.

The .444 Marlin was a mistake. It has always been a mistake. Marlin should have introduced the .45-70 in the early 1960s instead of the .444 Marlin, but it didn't because Marlin was riding on the coattails of the fabled .44 Magnum.

The.444 Marlin should be discontinued. There is no need for it. There never was.

One plus to the 45-70 is that if you reload you can also get an ar upper in 458 SOCOM and use the same bullets. I've been thinking of getting into that set up for that reason. That way if I want to go hunt somewhere I cant take a semi auto, I'll have the lever gun, with similar ballistics and such. Just a thought.
-Green.

Get a .450 marlin. It is much win.

Except that it is not very common, and finding ammo is difficult. No problem is you reload, but if you reload, you can match "factory" .450 Marlin ballistics. Proprietary cartridges have a bad habit of disappearing when the company that chambers them disappears. And, Marlin isn't in a really secure position right now.

The cost of brass alone for the 450 makes it not worth it. If you handload, 45-70 is the way to go.

Mild to wild, all at a fraction of the cost, with brass thats pretty easy to find.

I bought 200 rounds of Hornady factory ammo and as it gets shot, the brass gets reloaded. 350 at 2100 is pretty good stuff.

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