What was the brand of safe with the videos on YouTube?

The one where the owner was trying to break in to it using a forklift and all other kinds of torture?

I think you may be talking about Sturdy Gun Safes.

Yes, that's them. Very impressive in my book.

How do the liberty safes compare to the sturdy safes?

I've owned Sentry, Fort Kox and Sturdy over the years. Low end to high end I suppose.

I can attest to the fact that you do get what you pay for and to the rule of thumb of buying twice the size you actually need.

The Sturdy safe I have is fire lined and their third largest from the top. In comparison, it's heads and tails above the other two. That said though, for my needs at specific times, the other brands didn't let me down and I've "evolved" with my collection and security needs.

No experience with Liberty...yet.

Yes it is an impressive design, Sturdy makes the most of the steel used in their safes IMO. The Liberty Presidential is comparable to a fire lined Sturdy.

If you look around on Youtube, you will see several videos regarding the torture testing of safes. Almost all of these videos are produced by the safe manufacturer themselves, and they all lean in favor of the safe manufacturer. I don't know of any manufacturer that would make a video of the weaknesses, so just keep that in mind while watching them.

What would be cool is if Terry repeated his experiment with an AMSEC BF, now that would be a video I'd like to see.

What would be so cool about it? Is there a rash of burglaries going on where the perps are using a forklift to apply pressure to the strongest part of the safe door? Why aren't they just using the forklift to poke holes through the side of the safe?

10,000 pounds is not a lot of pressure, especially when placed on a strong point instead of a weak point. I think the trailer hitch on my truck is rated for 20,000 pounds, and uses a single 5/8" pin to hold the receiver in. I can show you a video of a small B rate where they have 16,000 pounds on it, and had to stop, because they couldn't generate any more pressure with the device they were using.

It all looks impressive on the videos. Just like the pick up truck commercials look impressive when they are pulling trains, driving up cliffs, and having 747s land in the back of them. It's all marketing designed to create a feeling, and has little to nothing to do with anything the product would be used for in real life.

Besides, if you're wanting to prove a point, wouldn't the test be better applied to the leading gun safe manufacturer? I mean if you're wanting to prove how great your product is, you should be comparing it to the biggest and baddest that everybody knows about.

What I think would be cool, is for you to tell us what your problem with AMSEC is?

Tension is pulling and pressure is pushing



An african male elephant can weigh up to 15,000LBS african male elephant but average is 11,000LBS. So basically the door of a Sturdy gun safe can hold an African male elephant suspended off of it without effecting it's operations, 10,000LBS is a lot of tension.



Against it's peers Sturdy safe will perform really well, actually depending on the test will likely perform better than some higher rated safes (I.e., B rated against pry resistance etc.)



I've told you already, it's the lack of bolt support. 1/2" steel plate door is pretty useless if there isn't a sufficient enough door frame or bolt support to resist against a heavy tension placed on the door as would be the case in a pry attack or Sturdy fork truck test.

Right. So what I'm asking is, if a thief has a forklift, why not use it in a manner that would actually open the safe?




Are thieves bringing elephants with them? I'm confused as to what any of this has to do with safes.

10,000 pounds is not that much tension. It can be generated with hand tools and simple leverage.




I don't think anybody is saying that it wouldn't perform better than some. It's also likely not to perform as good as others. So it's average.




AMSEC is a huge company. If what you say is true, then it would be common knowlege that their gun safes (or any other for that matter) have a weak spot, and they would be being broken into on a regular basis. Liberty is a huge company, and we see a bunch of their safes burglarized. Why aren't we seeing the same from AMSEC?

The answer to your question is that the "problem" is inside of your head, and not out there in real life. One of the professional sites I belong to makes a game out of exploiting weaknesses found in security products. I have yet to see AMSEC brough up at all, although I suspect sooner or later, we'll see some issues with their imports.

I could take a bank vault door, and install a single dead bolt from Walmart on it. I bet Terry's forklift, nor your elephant, could get it open. It doesn't take much to generate leverage, and 10,000 pounds isn't that much to match.

Oh, here's that itty bittle little safe with 16,000 pounds yanking on it. That's 60% more than the Sturdy. I'm not impressed with this video either, but you may be into it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILqXFsItRBY&feature=player_embedded

If I had the money to burn... I'd buy a bunch of these sheet-metal box RSC-type "safes", fire up the demolition saw and cut them ALL in half in minutes.

Now that would be a fun video.

Anyone know at all how many gun safes a day amsec builds?

I'm guessing 1 < x < 100000.

I would be curious to see all of the 'popular' safes on here undergo a set list of tests and all applied equally.

You mean like with a pry bar?

Sturdy Safe Myth Buster's video

I have Porta Power tools available to me with a 10,000LBS spreader. Even with that, there is no place to get leverage on their door and not that that would be enough force.

Their door handled over 10,000LBS of tension at about the worst possible place (for a pry bar) and only slightly bent a door seat, it will take much much more tension to get the door to fail open.

Real safes or gun safes?

Here's some quick comparisons:

Liberty builds zero real safes. I don't know an exact number on AMSEC's, but it's far greater than zero.

Liberty has built gun safes since 1988. AMSEC has built all types of safes since (I think) 1948 or 1949.

Liberty builds safes with 1 UL rating. AMSEC builds safes with 9 UL ratings.

Liberty has +/- 240 employees. AMSEC has +/- 250 employees, but has more advanced automation.

Liberty has 350 dealers. AMSEC has 1,254 dealers.

So the question remains. Why am I seeing photo after photo after photo of Liberty safes being attacked, and no AMSECs? Surely there has to be some out there somewhere.

I don't know how they measure it (units, dollars, etc.), but I believe Sentry (and associated companies) is the largest in the world, Fire King (and associated companies) is the largest in North America, and AMSEC is the largest in the US.





Yes. When I say you can easily generate that type of force by hand, I mean with a prybar. And like I also said, 10,000 pounds isn't that much. Just because a safe will hold 10,000 pounds worth of force doesn't mean it's strong. It simply means it will hold 10,000 pounds worth of force. I have pallet jacks rated for 10,000 pounds that are built out of the same light gauge metals some of these gun safes are.

You just seem to be far more impressed with it than I am.




Unless done by a third party, you'll never see it. Any manufacuturer showing how strong their products are is only going to do so in a manner that makes them look strong. They won't ever show the real weak spots.

Instead, we will just have to take a manufacturer's word that our gun safes will hold up against forklifts and elephants.

I guess I will try this again.

Anyone know at all how many gun safes a day amsec builds?

I have no idea. I can tell you how many my distributor moves, but that's only going to be a small part of the overall business.

Sentry may very well make more gun safes than both of them. Does the number of safes produced have anything to do with the quality, strengths, or weaknesses? I have seen several photos of attacked Sentry safes as well. Sturdy doesn't build nearly as many safes as either of them, and there are photos of their safes attacked. I'm just pondering why there aren't any AMSEC photos out there floating around, especially considering the what rockola has to say about them. If what he says is true, then criminals nationwide must be seeking these safes out as an easy score.

I'm glad you've come around to my way of thinking regarding this after the several debates we've had on this very subject.



In my few years on this safe forum, and others, I've only seen 1 picture of a Sturdy that someone tried to break into and they were unsuccessful. Are you saying you've seen pics of successful attacks or are you just implying it? Surely there have been attempted break ins of AMSECs as well? Or does the name just scare thieves away?

You're much better when you don't play these word games.



So does this mean that in the US AMSEC is bigger then Sentry and Fire King? That's how it reads. Just curious.

So can we cut to the chase regarding the AMSEC. Have you ever tried to pry one open? If you haven't how difficult do you think it would be?

I asked because I keep hearing about amsec being the biggest safe company. I think they are the biggest commercial safe company, but they are not the ones who produce the most gun safes.

Over the years I have had very few calls to service amsecs gun safe products, or to move it. I think it is because there aren't as many gun safes as other manufacturers. I have worked on and we have moved their commercial product, but not that many gun safes. My thinking is, if there isn't a whole lot of it out there, the chances for attempts on the shells are less.

I haven't come around to your way of thinking. I have always thought this. Being a big, or small, or medium sized company may very well offer certain advantages. It isn't always a positive though. Ultimately it's the product being produced that matters. It's usually the larger, older companies tend to have the most experience, make the least mistakes, and offer the most innovation.




I'm not playing any word games. Not counting what I have seen, let's look at what you have seen. One photo, of one Sturdy attacked. Why haven't you seen One photo, of one AMSEC attacked? I would think there would be something out there somewhere, but I'm coming up blank everywhere I look.




I'm not the one that came to that conclusion, I'm simply repeating it. Making an educated guess, it has to do with numbers based on where the safes are manufacturered. Sentry is the biggest in the world, but makes very few of their products in the US. Fire King builds a lot of stuff in North America, but not all in the US. AMSEC builds a lot of their safes right here in California.

So I'm assuming it would read that AMSEC is the largest US based, US manufacturer.




If we're cutting to the chase, why are we so focused on a pry attack? Gun safes are gun safes. Contrary to what some people would lead you to believe, they offer very limited burglary protection. This includes Sturdy and the AMSEC BF series. Will those two brands offer more protection than some of the others? Yes. Will some of the other brands offer more protection than them? Yes. Will any of them keep anybody out who wants to get in? Nope.

I'm just keeping it real here. I know you guys really dislike AMSEC for some reason. I'm simply pointing out that the Sturdy isn't as great as you think it is, and the AMSEC isn't as bad as you think it is. If you wanted to constantly debate anybody else's products, I would be happy to.




So the majority of their business is building commercial safes that are designed to keep people out, last in harsh commercial environments, and protect against extreme fires, yet you don't think that any of that experience carries over into their gun safe line?

The flip side to this is gun safe manufacturers that have had no real background in the security business at all, that simply decide that gun safes are a good way to make some money, and start churning them out. A couple of the partners of the company which was the most recent previous owner of Liberty live right here in my part of town, and are customers of mine. Want to venture a guess as to why they bought Liberty?




How many commercial AMSECs do you service? Are you an authorized AMSEC tech? Do you do warranty work for them? Do they hand out your number when their customers call the manufacturer seeking out a qualified person to deal with it? The only reason I bring it up is that there appears to be about 10 AMSEC dealers within a 50 mile radius of you. I would assume that they would handle most of the AMSEC work.

What about the brands that you sell? Do the manufacturers that you represent use you for all of their warranty work? Is it your number they hand out when the customers call?

I get called to deal with all sorts of issues from all sorts of manufacturers. Some manufacturers have fewer issues in the field than others because the produce a more trouble free product. I'm working with a member of another forum who is locked out of his imported AMSEC gun safe with an AMSEC lock. Problems can and will happen with any product from any manufacturer.




My thinking is this. They have certainly built more gun safes than Sturdy has, yet Sturdy has photos of fires and attacked safes. Where are the AMSEC photos? I'm not saying or even implying that they don't exist. I just can't find them. They aren't here. They aren't on Google. They aren't on any of the security sites. Why?

OK, well it seemed to me that you did because we debated this previously. And the following quotes were part of it...You said:



And I replied with the following;



Back to now...



Let me ask you again. What does the number of photos of safes attacked prove? Nothing! Now number of photos of safes broken into might prove something.



I think number of safes sold in the US is the correct way to look at it. My educated guess is that would make Sentry the largest.



I think you're just really defensive when it come to AMSEC. As far as I'm concerned AMSEC, Liberty, Fort Knox, are all similar.



Again what does that prove? That 9 out of 10 thieves see the AMSEC name on a safe and pack up their tools and go home?

You accuse me of talking in circles, but I think you're the king of it. I don't even know what point you're trying to make.




Other than I can't find photos of either. Can you? You and others want to harp on a particular manufacturer's product, but nobody can back up anything they are saying with real life proof.




Why is that the "correct" way? Doesn't the correct way depend on the question being asked? Who sells the most safes in the US? Who has the highest revenues? Who builds the most safes in the US? The answer to each one of those questions could determine who is the "biggest", but the answer to each question may also be different.




If that was the case, we would be seeing Liberty and Fort Knox safes in banks, jewelry stores, grocery stores, department stores, etc. I don't see anything Liberty or Fort Knox sells on any insurance company's list of acceptable safes. I don't see anything they make with any real insurable rating.

I'm only defending AMSEC because you are always attacking it. If you were attacking any other company that didn't deserve it, I would be defending them as well. Don't believe me, then go ahead and try it.

I have my issues with AMSEC. The difference between my issues and yours is that mine are based on reality and not some sort of perception or agenda.




Who's trying to prove anything? I'm asking why we're not seeing the photos.

Did a bunch of bitchy chicks invade this forum?

I know

I am not a safe expert, but have an engineering and business backgound. I did my research and it came down to the Sturdy and the AMSEC BF.

AMSEC is available locally, has a very solid construction, and better fire protection than most of the others I looked at. It cost a little more and has a more polished look. It uses a AMSEC lock which I am told is equivalent to the S&G.

Sturdy has the ability to customize and includes shipping in their price. It uses a heavier guage steel, and their constuction approach that made sense to the engineer in me. The price they quoted was discounted from what is on their website. It uses a S&G lock.

In the end I figured both would give me the burgury and fire protection I needed.

I went with the Sturdy.

Yeah, I am pretty much getting to the point where I just don't want anything to do with any safe topics on here. They seem to always turn into what this thread has become.

I concurr. :(

I've looked at several safe threads dating back quite some time.

There are many "these safes are the best, those other safes suck" threads. The difference is, nobody was sticking up for the "sucky" safes that really aren't sucky at all. I'm sorry if I ruined the one sided party of a few brand loyalists.

** Warning. Opinion forthcoming. ** I also found that there was plenty of brand steering when there should have been more answers. When somebody comes along and asks a question about brand X, perhaps questions about brand X should be discussed instead of just telling the person to buy brand Y. This is what I've been trying to do. Answer questions, respond to concerns, and attempt to clear up specific questions about specific brands or models.

Unfortunately, some people like to constantly bring up the brands they don't like in an attempt to bash them. If people don't want to hear about company x's products, they should stop bringing them up in every thread. If people don't want to hear about company y's products, they should do likewise. I'm very happy to talk about anybody's products.

To me it always appears that rockola and btn13 are starting the drama. I didn't see any mention of AMSEC being better than anyone else by a1abj but those two hopped onto this thread and drove it into the ground just like many others.

I don't know why they have an axe to grind with a1abj but I really wish they could contribute to a thread instead of turning it into one big pissing contest as I haven't seen a1abj really instigate anything he is just responded to the other two when they attack him. If I had the ignore button that could remove all content (even quoted) I know who I'd be using it on.


OP: You will never see a manufacturer test their own safe without showing stellar results as that would just be stupid. You also aren't going to avoid brand loyalty for the most part. I have an AMSEC but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't choose a different brand if I could get a better price on the same quality of safe.

I don't really care what a forklift can do to the safe as it is unrealistic for me since mine is in the basement. No RSC will stand up to a determined criminal with power tools and time having an AMSEC/Liberty/Sturdy/etc. will just hopefully delay them long enough that they give up or get caught. The same goes with fire as there is no set standard for ratings unless they are UL fire rated. The only thing the gun safe does is buy you some time beyond that the best you can do is insure your guns just like the rest of your home.

No drama on my part. The OP mentioned that he saw fork truck videos testing a gun safe and was impressed, I agreed with him. Why should a1abdj have anything to do with this post, it has nothing to do with him?

I do apologize for bringing up the AMSEC BF though, a1abdj has many times said the AMSEC BF is superior Sturdy Safe (you can Google it to see) that I guess I couldn't help myself.

Becaues I'm pretty familiar with most of the marketing, especially the misleading marketing, presented by gun safe manufacturers.





Yes I have. I have said that in some respects it is better than the Sturdy. I have also said that in some respects, Sturdy is better than the AMSEC. I have suggested both safes to potential buyers. Go ahead, Google it.

Rockola should also know better, because he himself has been a party to discussions where I have suggested and/or spoken well about Sturdy.

Ok so here's at least one of the videos mentioned in the OP. Seems like pretty straight forward tests, what's misleading about them?

Fork truck test: over 10,000LBS of tension put on the upper corner of the gun safe (weak spot in pry attack)

Pry bar test: 2 of the 4 active bolts cut, 6 foot pry bar with 400+Lbs of force being applied on opposing end.

Why are we jumping around so much? Perhaps you should address the latest accusation you just made first. You made it sound as if (like some people) I only have good things to say about certain brands, and bad things to say about others.

True or false? I have said positive things about Sturdy safes, AND even suggested them to potential buyers in threads that you were a participant?

You need to go to the pit if you want to fight. Stop doing it in the safe forum, you are way beyond civil discussion.

Go fight in here

I suppose they'll be in there fighting amongst themselves. I'm not here to fight, and have not been the aggressor in any of these threads.

They admit to doing this in another forum. They admit to being removed from that forum. They admit to signing back up to that forum under new names. I'm assuming they are communicating amongst themselves, otherwise how would they know that? I'm assuming this is part of some sort of agenda.

They were bad mouthing me before I got here. They make false accusations, then accuse others of doing exactly what they're doing.

They quote and comment on just about everything I say.

I don't think the source of the problem can be any more obvious.

This tit for tat shit has got to go. Fucking killing me.

Admit to what? Only thing I'll admit to is that you fight with anyone who disagrees with you (and many times when no one is disagreeing with you.) I've tried to be civil with you and it's impossible, you just thrive on conflict. As for your paranoia that's your problem.

Many safes (RSC) have the door frame as a weak point. Cannon is one of these, and there are a lot more. Pulling ain't gonna do it, but once it is on its back, many are easily compromised with a sledge hammer by simply bashing the door and breaking the outer frame. Criminals will use the simplest of tools. If the frame can be pried and separated away from the door, again the door can easily be compromised.

Once the safe is in the open, free from the floor, consider what tools you have available in your own garage. If the wall thickness in measured in gauge, rather than fractions of an inch (thin) a simple angle grinder with a cutoff wheel will make very short work of the side wall, top, or back.

Many of these box sellers trick you with fancy doors and fancy bolts, when the frame and walls are the weak point. Just as deceptive as a magician.

I am a welder/fabricator/engineer and have inspected the design of many RSC builds in an attempt to build my own better. In the end, this is what I settled on:

http://www.brownsafe.com/gallery/EstateSeries/Estate_Gallery.html

Stop swinging your purses and fix your skirts. If your box says RSC on the side, you will never be buying the best, regardless of the magician-made videos on youboob dot comz.

Why do these keep going off on tangents? a1abdj I don't know btn and we aren't conspiring against you. He sent me a message over on THR about this site and I signed up here. I haven't posted on THR for a year now mostly because I grew tired of this sort of thing always happening with you.

a1abdj, if you feel that Sturdy Safe and in particular Terry is being misleading or dishonest with the videos he has made then you should state why. Sturdy is now a sponsor to this site I believe too due to the membership support to them.

wildearp, I do agree with what you said and you have a very nice gun safe and much more secure than anything Sturdy, Summit, Fort Knox, Liberty makes. I don't think though that what Sturdy makes or a Summit Denali Ex can be lumped into the same category as other RSCs. I believe of RSCs there are two at least that cannot be opened by just using sledge hammers, pry bars, punches wedges etc. I think in both cases the designers optimized their gun safes for those attacks. Although it will take much less time to cut into either Sturdy safes or Summit Denali Ex than what you have, I do think it will take power tools none the less which I feel is what Terry and the designers of the Summit Denali were looking for.

Wildearp, which Brown do you have? I have a B rated one and while I like it I feel like its not as well thought out as my Sturdy. You mention weak frames for rsc's and in general you're right. However I think this is where Sturdy stands out compared to other rsc's. Also in my case I placed it in a corner in my basement and had Sturdy reinforce all the exposed areas. I think that's a great option depending on the buyers placement situation and again pushes Sturdys protection to better then comparably priced rsc's.

I have the biggest Brown, maybe not the thickest, with a mod due to the openings it had to fit through to install. I used to work a few blocks away from them and stopped by their shop when I spotted it on the way home from work. I had looked at a lot of different models of safes and at that time owned a Browning, my brother owned an AMSEC. One look at the Brown and I placed an order. They delivered and installed for $150, which was priceless, since it was essentially training for me. It is surprisingly easy to move a safe that is measured in tons, rather than pounds, with the simplest of tools. Given enough time, almost any safe can be compromised if you disregard any other layers of security or countermeasures.

To save money, I made my own interior for the Browning and the Brown. It is super easy to do, and you can make it fit your needs. All you need is plywood, a jig saw, contact cement, and indoor/outdoor felt carpet from Homey Depot. Having built it yourself, it is easy to modify in the future, and you will probably need to do this at some point.

An RSC rated box is not too bad a choice, if you buy a box that is engineered well, and install it properly. Proper installation, combined with an alarm system, camera system, opsec, etc. will keep you safe. Loose lips sink ships. Pretty paint, chrome bolts, exaggerated fire ratings, etc. are great marketing, but you just don't get the bang for the buck.

I don't know a thing about the Sturdy safes, never seen one, just now hearing about them. I would be interested in seeing photos of the inside of the door frame, along with specs on thickness and other countermeasures, like anti-drill plates, relockers, lock hardening, etc.

wildearp, their website gives much more detailed information but here's a quick picture summary of photos and features of their safes that I think are their strong points. No they aren't a TL rated safe but IMO are one of a small number of RSCs that would be a serious challenge to open without powered tools.

Door Frame:
Their standard door is 5/16" plate steel of grade 50 or A36 if grade 50 isn't available. The door frame is constructed of 3/16" thick angled steel with webbing 3" and a pretty wide flange.


The bolt carriage and bolt actuators are all housed within a U shaped channel (European shape UPN maybe?) that is also constructed of 3/16" steel. The channel housing also doubles as the support mechanism for the bolts and also support the bolts on two points at all times; it is what give the door such great resistance to pry forces IMO.

;



The folks at Sturdy are master steel fabricators in my opinion: the welds are deep and generous, the bends in the body are precise and the door is cut to paper thin tolerances. Also the doors are recessed making effective pry attack even more difficult.

;

Their fire liner is excellent as well; it's expensive but it is very effective and dry (I.e., no steam is released during a fire.) The body has 2" of compressed glass and ceramic fiber, the roof, floor and door have 3". I recently found a European company making a media safe that could pass the tough UL 125F-2hour rating and they were doing it with about 3.5" of ceramic fiber on the body. So good fire lining, but it's an expensive option.

,



Their shelves can hold a lot as well. With an upgraded option my shelves can all hold 150LBS each (not sure I'd try that though) but standard option holds quite a bit also.



As for counter measures, they have the standard relock on their commercial grade S&G but they also have a secondary relock that is pressure activated and is incorporated with the hardplate somehow. Also in the photo, look at the size of the bolt carriage actuator: their website says their linkage can handle 16000LBS before breaking. They have no clutches or shear pins in their design either.

a1abdj photo:



As btn mentioned, more steel can be added at the purchasers request. For some sizes 5ga bodies are available for only a couple hundred extra. Stainless can be added also if someone is worried about a torch attack (welding shop maybe?)

Overall, their safes are a very good value IMO for the average gun collector (what I am I suppose.)

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