Anyone use a 556 in a carbine class yet ?

Anyone use a 556 in a carbine class yet ?

ANGST [Team Member]

3/18/2010 9:55:49 AM

How did it do ?

chapperjoe [Team Member]

3/18/2010 11:32:55 AM

Thats A Good question

nchapa [Member]

3/18/2010 5:12:18 PM

not sure where I read it, but someone claimed they used a 556 to finish up the course after their AR took a dump. The person claimed it did good.

JLKomives [Member]

3/18/2010 9:37:01 PM

I used mine in a day long "urban rifle" class. Ran about 400 rounds through with various drills and shooting positions. Single shot zeroing, two and three round taps and hammers. Targets between 15 and 100 yards. I run an Aimpoint and 551 handguards with a light in an offset mount on a piece of rail I installed on the handguard. Did great. Then again, so did the AR's and the one Mini-30. It wasn't exactly a "high-speed, low drag" class but was a nice little carbine intro.

jlk

Eyegun [Member]

3/19/2010 11:20:53 PM

I WAS going to take my 556 to Front Sight in April, but I can't sight it in using the iron sites that came on the gun. There's not enough elevation on the back sight and it's all the way to the right. Still shooting a foot low and left at 100m....

Guess I'll be a sheeple and take an AR.

squirrell18 [Team Member]

3/20/2010 11:12:01 AM

Originally Posted By nchapa:
not sure where I read it, but someone claimed they used a 556 to finish up the course after their AR took a dump. The person claimed it did good.

I want to see a SIG 556 run 1200 rounds in one day.

MP5MachinenPistole [Member]

3/20/2010 3:03:37 PM

I recently took my SIG 556 to Gunsight for the 223 class. I shot 1,850 rounds in three days with no cleaning or other maintenance. It ran fine with no stoppages or malfunctions. Ammo was Federal; magazines used were Magpul P Mags. Lubrication used was the white lutetium grease.

I am very tired of all of the winning and crying about the SIG 556! Funny, other shooters and I do not have problems with the SIG 556! WTF!

MP5MachinenPistole [Member]

3/20/2010 3:04:25 PM

MP5MachinenPistole [Member]

3/20/2010 3:08:39 PM

Originally Posted By squirrell18:

Originally Posted By nchapa:
not sure where I read it, but someone claimed they used a 556 to finish up the course after their AR took a dump. The person claimed it did good.

I want to see a SIG 556 run 1200 rounds in one day.

So why do you not just do that? Go shoot in your SIG 556 1,200 rounds and let us know what happens!

Accomplice1 [Member]

3/20/2010 5:36:42 PM

Originally Posted By squirrell18:

Originally Posted By nchapa:
not sure where I read it, but someone claimed they used a 556 to finish up the course after their AR took a dump. The person claimed it did good.

I want to see a SIG 556 run 1200 rounds in one day.

It can and does. These things are tanks.

300WSM [Team Member]

3/20/2010 11:42:30 PM

Originally Posted By Eyegun:
I WAS going to take my 556 to Front Sight in April, but I can't sight it in using the iron sites that came on the gun. There's not enough elevation on the back sight and it's all the way to the right. Still shooting a foot low and left at 100m....

Guess I'll be a sheeple and take an AR.

I had that problem but I'm shunned here for telling the truth.

C_Swimm [Member]

3/20/2010 11:52:09 PM

Originally Posted By nchapa:
not sure where I read it, but someone claimed they used a 556 to finish up the course after their AR took a dump. The person claimed it did good.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/451105858/m/901100002?r=965104312#965104312

MP5MachinenPistole [Member]

3/21/2010 11:32:54 AM

Originally Posted By C_Swimm:

Originally Posted By nchapa:
not sure where I read it, but someone claimed they used a 556 to finish up the course after their AR took a dump. The person claimed it did good.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/451105858/m/901100002?r=965104312#965104312

By the pictures in this article on the SIG Forum, I would say "...took a dump" is an understatement!

Catastrophic failure would be more accurate!

Eyegun [Member]

3/24/2010 11:17:19 PM

Originally Posted By 300WSM:

Guess I'll be a sheeple and take an AR.

I had that problem but I'm shunned here for telling the truth.

Well there's always a devout herd of followers for every niche in the firearms world.

In any case, I called Sig CS and they issued a call tag/RMA without much prodding. Dropped it off at UPS today so we'll see. I don't think I'll have it in time for the carbine class but oh well it's not like that's the last class I'm going to ever take.

RAINBOW6 [Member]

4/1/2010 12:30:06 PM

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So this is still an on going problem with these guns? How has Sig responded i.e., their customer service, to people sending them back?

SkyPup [Member]

4/1/2010 12:55:50 PM

Guess I'll be a sheeple and take an AR.

So, if you cannot sight it in with the BUIS, have you tried any optics?

Eyegun [Member]

4/1/2010 1:28:23 PM

Originally Posted By SkyPup:

Guess I'll be a sheeple and take an AR.

So, if you cannot sight it in with the BUIS, have you tried any optics?

Didn't try optics. Wouldn't have made any difference to me as I'm not some dot-dependent lame-o. For $1500, that fucking thing should hit the paper with whatever sights are on it.

Sarge1119 [Member]

4/1/2010 3:20:49 PM

Originally Posted By Eyegun:

Originally Posted By SkyPup:

Guess I'll be a sheeple and take an AR.

So, if you cannot sight it in with the BUIS, have you tried any optics?

Didn't try optics. Wouldn't have made any difference to me as I'm not some dot-dependent lame-o. For $1500, that fucking thing should hit the paper with whatever sights are on it.

Well played sir

arcticbear [Team Member]

4/2/2010 11:46:08 PM

I have carried the Sig556 for the last couple of years and run it through several classes as well as quarterly training and have had no issues with it. A few months ago we switched to the slect fire SBR rifle and just attended a week long course at SigArms without issue. The gun will run broken magazines that Colt ar15's will not. Nice rifles.

L119188 [Team Member]

5/17/2010 10:41:36 PM

I shot mine at IronMan. Does that count?

Gabriel [Team Member]

5/18/2010 12:32:47 PM

Originally Posted By Eyegun:

Originally Posted By SkyPup:

Guess I'll be a sheeple and take an AR.

So, if you cannot sight it in with the BUIS, have you tried any optics?

Didn't try optics. Wouldn't have made any difference to me as I'm not some dot-dependent lame-o. For $1500, that fucking thing should hit the paper with whatever sights are on it.

The stock sights on the 556s are pure crap. I bought mine knowing that in advance and changing them out to some decent irons was the first thing I did.

I like the Sig rifle, but you are basically paying good money for a barreled action and lower with a trigger group. The furniture and sights need to go into the trash and be replaced.

I went to an urban rifle course a couple weeks ago. I actually didn't know anything about it until I was there (long story) and had to borrow an AR to take it. I really wanted to use my Sig.

arcticbear [Team Member]

5/19/2010 12:22:32 AM

You did not do your homework if you took the Sig to a class without getting some good sights on the rifle first.

Gabriel [Team Member]

5/19/2010 1:13:32 AM

Originally Posted By arcticbear:
You did not do your homework if you took the Sig to a class without getting some good sights on the rifle first.

I didn't take the Sig with me. I didn't know I was even taking a carbine class until the night before and I hadn't taken any rifle with me.

Accomplice1 [Member]

7/12/2010 7:41:05 PM

I ran a class with my 556 classic this weekend. It ran great. It had only 1 stoppage and that was a wolf case getting stuck in the chamber. It was the first stoppage in over 1,000 rounds of steel cased ammo. The DI ARs were going down left and right. The piston Ruger AR was running quite a bit better than the DI guns. The owner only feeds it brass cased ammo. My buddy's SCAR had no failures but he doesn't run steel cased ammo. If we all were running brass, I doubt my 556 would have had the malfunction and the ARs would probably have had less.

We did a bunch of drills and when your partner's rifle went down or they needed to do a mag change, you had to cover their targets and your own. The 556 rang a lot of steel while the ARs were down. I even had my Eotech fall off of the rail in one drill. I caught it on the way down, had it back onto the same rail spot hand tight and ringing the steel at 50 yards in a few seconds. With the 14.5" barrel and perm attached PWS FSC-556, the gun was handy and lightening fast from shot to shot, target to target. I don't think that there is a better option out there for the money ($1,380).

ep_shooter [Member]

7/12/2010 8:57:47 PM

Originally Posted By Eyegun:

Originally Posted By SkyPup:

Guess I'll be a sheeple and take an AR.

So, if you cannot sight it in with the BUIS, have you tried any optics?

Didn't try optics. Wouldn't have made any difference to me as I'm not some dot-dependent lame-o. For $1500, that fucking thing should hit the paper with whatever sights are on it.

I understood the gun to be "optic ready" and the flip up sight as a "bare bones backup option". I replaced it with an ARMS flip up, same one that I bought to go on my AR. Gun works great with an optic. You should you try it.

chapperjoe [Team Member]

7/13/2010 9:39:23 AM

Originally Posted By Accomplice1:
I even had my Eotech fall off of the rail in one drill. I caught it on the way down, had it back onto the same rail spot hand tight and ringing the steel at 50 yards in a few seconds.

L119188 [Team Member]

9/15/2010 11:20:27 PM

Originally Posted By L119188:
I shot mine at IronMan. Does that count?

Is it legal to quote yourself?
I shot my Sig 556 at Ironman 2008, which involved about 1500 rounds of .223 over three days on stages that frequently took six or seven minutes to complete, in Idaho, where there's this Satanic Moon Dust that coats everything from the inside of your rifle to your teeth with 300 grit nastiness. I shot the whole match with a bone stock 556, and it never missed a beat....well except for one shot where I heard this boing sound and it failed to cycle. Turns out I got too close to the hand rail in the tower and the bolt handle hit a 1" steel upright on the way back. I racked the bolt and moved my dumb ass a little further from the rail and all was well. Awesome match, great rifle.

GaryT1776 [Member]

10/16/2010 8:14:32 PM

I completed a two day Level 2 Carbine Class at MilCopp Tactical last month. The class had one Sig556, two AK's, and a bunch of AR's.

The Sig shooter was typically on the line by me, and I never once saw any sort of malfunction. There were several problems related to "lower end" AR's, and my SLR-106FR had one FTE and two double feed (both with Wolf ammo I stored in my black SUV for two years...through freezing winters and scorching summers). The double feeds might be related to the fact we had completed a series of non-retention mag change drills during which I "sweep out" the full mag letting it hit the hard deck 5 or 6 times before being inserted back in the rifle and fired.

The Sig is second from right...

My personal Sig556ER has suffered a FTE / very stuck case after a series of fast strings at some local training. The FTE occured after a round of Polymer Coated Wolf was left in the chamber for a while. The round went off, but getting the case out of the chamber took a cleaning rod and rubber mallet. I attribute this malf to a hot and dimensionally tight chamber and melted poly coating.

People like to say "I'd like to see you shoot x, y, z number of rounds in a day". Well, I've fired 800rds thorugh my Sig in active shooter / level 2 type training and:

1) Had 0 malfunctions.
2) Found the rifle to have a cleaner receiver, bolt carrier group, and bore than my Colt 6920 that I had taken and sighted in with EIGHTY rounds that morning.

GaryT1776 [Member]

10/22/2010 4:43:29 PM

I ran 250 rounds through the pictured Sig in one hour this morning. Zero malfunctions.

chezwatts [Member]

10/25/2010 7:31:07 PM

I think I posted the original question on this earlier in the year. I was scheduled for a 5-day carbine course in November and had just picked up a Sig556. I had to reschedule the class for January.

I have MI iron sights and a Millett DMS. After a bad day on the range I got frustrated and orderd a BCM upper. Wasn't going to chance the class.
Two main problems, it was all over the map past 200m (now confirmed a Millett problem) and many of the GI mags caused FTF with heavier bullets.

Well, with some good advice from Erik Lund and more range time the Sig has come back - free-floated rails and a PWS comp helped on target and the Magpul Pmags stopped the FTF.
My plan is to go with the Sig and take the BCM as a backup.

I do use a sight because there are two active roles for the Sig, real-close and at distance, and I'm trying to accomodate both.

Eyegun [Member]

10/30/2010 12:47:24 PM

Originally Posted By ep_shooter:

Originally Posted By Eyegun:

Originally Posted By SkyPup:

Guess I'll be a sheeple and take an AR.

So, if you cannot sight it in with the BUIS, have you tried any optics?

Didn't try optics. Wouldn't have made any difference to me as I'm not some dot-dependent lame-o. For $1500, that fucking thing should hit the paper with whatever sights are on it.

Mine came with the rotating diopter rear sight.

I like it that way. Less cosmetic pimp shit the better.

I understood the gun to be "optic ready" and the flip up sight as a "bare bones backup option". I replaced it with an ARMS flip up, same one that I bought to go on my AR. Gun works great with an optic. You should you try it.

rgaper [Team Member]

11/1/2010 9:20:46 PM

Good friend of mine ran a 556 SWAT through a multi-day carbine course and it did not perform reliably. He was using Wolf ammunition and they was getting stuck cases like it was going out of style. Literally, I saw him have to take it off the line and grab a cleaning rod every few minutes at one point. He tried turning up the gas on the gun and all it resulted in was the shearing off of cartridge rims. The gun is largely okay with brass cased ammunition, but it sees more malfunctions (primarily FTE) than most decent AR platforms.

Another issue was that he found it to be very poorly balanced, so for a run & gun course, it was very fatiguing for him. He ended up mothballing the rifle and buying an LWRC.

His setup on the SIG was...

Samson front BUIS, Troy rear BUIS
Aimpoint M4 in Larue mount
CTR stock
Vickers sling

Dieter122 [Member]

11/1/2010 9:50:20 PM

Originally Posted By rgaper:
Good friend of mine ran a 556 SWAT through a multi-day carbine course and it did not perform reliably. He was using Wolf ammunition and they was getting stuck cases like it was going out of style. Literally, I saw him have to take it off the line and grab a cleaning rod every few minutes at one point. He tried turning up the gas on the gun and all it resulted in was the shearing off of cartridge rims. The gun is largely okay with brass cased ammunition, but it sees more malfunctions (primarily FTE) than most decent AR platforms.

Another issue was that he found it to be very poorly balanced, so for a run & gun course, it was very fatiguing for him. He ended up mothballing the rifle and buying an LWRC.

His setup on the SIG was...

Samson front BUIS, Troy rear BUIS
Aimpoint M4 in Larue mount
CTR stock
Vickers sling

poor choice for ammo in a carbine course....thats his first mistake. So far i have, and plan to, use Federal brass in mine even for plinking. Wolf is used only in AKs. Dirty steel cased ammo is nice because its affordable, but I wouldnt want it to gunk my rifle up if i am taking part in an expensive class.

second, hit the gym if the rifle is fatiguing. It is a bit more front heavy than an AR, but it isnt huge/significant. After people load their ARs up with flash lights, front grip bipods, AFGs, 5 lasers, aimpoints with magnifiers, ACOGs and VLTOR buttstocks, that 7lb AR will quickly become 10lbs. Its like the arguement people make when they complain milled AKs are "too heavy" vs stamped AKs, its so minor it shouldnt be an issue. Thats just my opinion though. Weight may be an issue to some who are more sensitive to even a 1lb or 2lb increase, particularly over the course of a day long class, would be understandable.

rgaper [Team Member]

11/2/2010 10:57:55 AM

Originally Posted By Dieter122:

1. A quality, in-spec rifle should eat & cycle steel-cased, smelly Russian ammunition with no problem. A friend and I took that same course and used Brown Bear 55gr FMJ and experienced zero malfunctions with just a BCG wipe-down and re-lubrication of the between days. We've also taken several other carbine courses using thousands of rounds of both Brown Bear and Tula with 100% reliability through our LMT and BCM DI guns. I would not risk the expense of taking a class with ammunition that was unreliable, which is why it's important to run your gun prior to the course with that ammunition. He had done so, but apparently not enough. Despite this, the same issues of buildup in the chamber should have been in effect for our rifles too, so it's pretty likely that the SIG's chamber is at a different spec if he had the same issues repeatedly. Our recommendation was a chamber reaming. (that's a purely non-sexual term)

2. He works at UPS and slings boxes for a living, so he hits the gym for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Compared to a fairly basic DI gun like I shoot, the 556 SWAT's weight & balance is not even worth comparing; Squared off in front of a target with the SIG vs. a DI gun, the weight becomes apparent pretty quickly. That support hand may be well forward on the HG/AFG/etc for a while, but after a bit it'll be on the mag well. I will tell you that originally, he did fall into the category of trying to make the rifle into a swiss army knife, but after many discussions, he peeled back the amount of gear that was attached to the SIG.

I've never heard the stamped vs. milled AK weight argument, but yes, that does sound pretty ghey. The receiver weight really wouldn't even be all that meaningful due to the location.

chapperjoe [Team Member]

11/2/2010 11:29:51 AM

mine eats wolf and silver bear just fine, granted not in a course setting.

I'd probably stick to silver bear in a course, or even brass.

A8AWD [Team Member]

11/2/2010 5:33:15 PM

Originally Posted By rgaper:

1. A quality, in-spec rifle should eat & cycle steel-cased, smelly Russian ammunition with no problem. A friend and I took that same course and used Brown Bear 55gr FMJ and experienced zero malfunctions with just a BCG wipe-down and re-lubrication of the between days. We've also taken several other carbine courses using thousands of rounds of both Brown Bear and Tula with 100% reliability through our LMT and BCM DI guns. I would not risk the expense of taking a class with ammunition that was unreliable, which is why it's important to run your gun prior to the course with that ammunition. He had done so, but apparently not enough. Despite this, the same issues of buildup in the chamber should have been in effect for our rifles too, so it's pretty likely that the SIG's chamber is at a different spec if he had the same issues repeatedly. Our recommendation was a chamber reaming. (that's a purely non-sexual term)

2. He works at UPS and slings boxes for a living, so he hits the gym for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Compared to a fairly basic DI gun like I shoot, the 556 SWAT's weight & balance is not even worth comparing; Squared off in front of a target with the SIG vs. a DI gun, the weight becomes apparent pretty quickly. That support hand may be well forward on the HG/AFG/etc for a while, but after a bit it'll be on the mag well. I will tell you that originally, he did fall into the category of trying to make the rifle into a swiss army knife, but after many discussions, he peeled back the amount of gear that was attached to the SIG.

I've never heard the stamped vs. milled AK weight argument, but yes, that does sound pretty ghey. The receiver weight really wouldn't even be all that meaningful due to the location.

Bro. You are EXACTLY right on all accounts. You know me and my Sig. I'm almost at 15k without a malfunction and have run the shit out of it. 100% of the ammo has been brass and 90% has been Fed or prvi 193. It works for my gun so I run it. And yes, the weight IS a burden. You can be me at 5'11" 165 or be 6'8" 280. The balance of the rifle is very front biased and will fatigue anyone if you are holding/running it for 8+ hrs (on a bench? Who the fuck cares if its resting on a bench?). And regardless which support hand has been working, yes it occasionally ends up at the magwell to get back some muscle steam. I train expecting the eventual fatigue though.

What other rifle do you know that can take out the subject and hit his buddy in the eye with brass at the same time

chapperjoe [Team Member]

11/2/2010 5:49:35 PM

I don't think they are front-biased in stock config.

Versus an AR, there's no doubt they weigh more, but IMO they're better balanced than an AR.

Although I'm stuck in NY, in my mind the ideal sig carbine is 11-13" long so the weight is less of an issue (and even better balanced)

A8AWD [Team Member]

11/2/2010 6:35:01 PM

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I don't think they are front-biased in stock config.

Versus an AR, there's no doubt they weigh more, but IMO they're better balanced than an AR.

Although I'm stuck in NY, in my mind the ideal sig carbine is 11-13" long so the weight is less of an issue (and even better balanced)

Agreed. Bringing that rifle barrel in a few inches would make a world of difference for me. I'm trying to SBR one but Sig 5series are banned by name here so I need to take an SCM and add a 556 pistol barrel/gas system.

As for balance, the up front weight does help in the accuracy department, but makes it tough to manipulate the rifle efficiently after a few hours straight. If I pick up an AR after running the Sig its like a feather.

ETA: Joe. You have an SCM or a 556?

GaryT1776 [Member]

11/2/2010 9:50:04 PM

I guess I've been lucky, because I've probably run 2k of Wolf through my Sig's with only one FTE. Friday I plan on running about 750 rounds through my Classic in about 3 hours of training. I'll try to remember to post the results here.

MAKAK47 [Member]

11/4/2010 6:55:15 PM

Originally Posted By GaryT1776:
I guess I've been lucky, because I've probably run 2k of Wolf through my Sig's with only one FTE. Friday I plan on running about 750 rounds through my Classic in about 3 hours of training. I'll try to remember to post the results here.

I run only wolf through mine, no issues

JKH62 [Member]

11/6/2010 11:17:35 AM

Originally Posted By squirrell18:

Originally Posted By nchapa:
not sure where I read it, but someone claimed they used a 556 to finish up the course after their AR took a dump. The person claimed it did good.

I want to see a SIG 556 run 1200 rounds in one day.

You buy the ammo and I will get the video camera & my rifle........

1200 rounds is not a major feat unless its Wolf or another garbage ammo.