Archived Posts » 59,646,491
Will I get in real trouble for this?
12/3/2011 11:23:06 PM
I was at my first gun show last weekend and had my first sale early in the morning and at the time it was absolutely crazy. I had him fill out the 4473, I had his driver's license in hand, checking the info as I called it in, then handed it back to him once i got the go ahead. He paid and went on his way with the gun. I looked back at the 4473 and realized I didnt write down his license number. I looked around the show for him but I guess he had left after his purchase. Should I mail him a request for his license information? Is this a slap on the hand or a "bring the rain" mistake? I doubt it being my first sale would count as an excuse either 
Thanks,
shane
Thanks,
shane
12/3/2011 11:41:24 PM
Youll get a ding at your next compliance inspection, if they even notice it. No huge deal.
12/3/2011 11:46:03 PM
That makes me feel a little better. Flippin ATF guy that did my interview was very, very nice but made it clear that one wrong thing and they'll come with battering rams and haul me off...not sure if he was joking or not! 
12/3/2011 11:57:36 PM
Originally Posted By DeltaTangoBravo:
I was at my first gun show last weekend and had my first sale early in the morning and at the time it was absolutely crazy. I had him fill out the 4473, I had his driver's license in hand, checking the info as I called it in, then handed it back to him once i got the go ahead. He paid and went on his way with the gun. I looked back at the 4473 and realized I didnt write down his license number. I looked around the show for him but I guess he had left after his purchase. Should I mail him a request for his license information? Is this a slap on the hand or a "bring the rain" mistake? I doubt it being my first sale would count as an excuse either
Thanks,
shane
I was at my first gun show last weekend and had my first sale early in the morning and at the time it was absolutely crazy. I had him fill out the 4473, I had his driver's license in hand, checking the info as I called it in, then handed it back to him once i got the go ahead. He paid and went on his way with the gun. I looked back at the 4473 and realized I didnt write down his license number. I looked around the show for him but I guess he had left after his purchase. Should I mail him a request for his license information? Is this a slap on the hand or a "bring the rain" mistake? I doubt it being my first sale would count as an excuse either
Thanks,
shane
We make a copy of the DL and attach to the 4473.
12/4/2011 12:04:52 AM
Burn up a stamp and mail a request with your phone number.
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
12/4/2011 12:05:18 AM
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
12/4/2011 12:06:06 AM
Originally Posted By jerrmy:
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
Only if your buddy wants to risk losing his job and being charged with a misdemeanor.
12/4/2011 12:49:15 AM
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Only if your buddy wants to risk losing his job and being charged with a misdemeanor.
Originally Posted By jerrmy:
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
Only if your buddy wants to risk losing his job and being charged with a misdemeanor.
12/4/2011 9:00:31 AM
Originally Posted By myitinaw:
http://radiopatriot.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/oh-please.jpg
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Only if your buddy wants to risk losing his job and being charged with a misdemeanor.
Originally Posted By jerrmy:
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
Only if your buddy wants to risk losing his job and being charged with a misdemeanor.
http://radiopatriot.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/oh-please.jpg
Oh please nothing, it is highly illegal. All police departments have to turn in reports for every single person they search along with a list of the law enforcement reason for it. If there is no legal law enforcement reason for the search it is illegal and goes against the individual's basic fourth amendment right. No cop that I know would be willing to throw away his entire career and get arrested for this crime.
12/4/2011 10:03:28 AM
Originally Posted By ProjectCamaro:
Oh please nothing, it is highly illegal. All police departments have to turn in reports for every single person they search along with a list of the law enforcement reason for it. If there is no legal law enforcement reason for the search it is illegal and goes against the individual's basic fourth amendment right. No cop that I know would be willing to throw away his entire career and get arrested for this crime.
Originally Posted By myitinaw:
http://radiopatriot.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/oh-please.jpg
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Only if your buddy wants to risk losing his job and being charged with a misdemeanor.
Originally Posted By jerrmy:
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
Only if your buddy wants to risk losing his job and being charged with a misdemeanor.
http://radiopatriot.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/oh-please.jpg
Oh please nothing, it is highly illegal. All police departments have to turn in reports for every single person they search along with a list of the law enforcement reason for it. If there is no legal law enforcement reason for the search it is illegal and goes against the individual's basic fourth amendment right. No cop that I know would be willing to throw away his entire career and get arrested for this crime.
while i agree that accessing the systems for non law enforcement reasons is in fact a crime and a career ender... <local sherrif got burned several years ago for using it for election purposes> i have never once seen an officer file a report for running someone's info.
12/4/2011 10:40:33 AM
Originally Posted By ProjectCamaro:
]
Oh please nothing, it is highly illegal. All police departments have to turn in reports for every single person they search along with a list of the law enforcement reason for it. If there is no legal law enforcement reason for the search it is illegal and goes against the individual's basic fourth amendment right. No cop that I know would be willing to throw away his entire career and get arrested for this crime.
you're speaking a bit out of your lane.]
Oh please nothing, it is highly illegal. All police departments have to turn in reports for every single person they search along with a list of the law enforcement reason for it. If there is no legal law enforcement reason for the search it is illegal and goes against the individual's basic fourth amendment right. No cop that I know would be willing to throw away his entire career and get arrested for this crime.
12/4/2011 9:04:53 PM
It's nothing you will lose your license over (or even fined). ATF does not have fining authority.
12/5/2011 12:54:51 PM
Send him a letter at the address asking for help.
Whether or not ATF does anything varies. I have know of people in this situation and it was someone the FFL knew so the ATF guy had him call and get it and then write it in.
Some states DL numbers are public record and you can get a LEO or PI or one of those background check firms to look it up for you.
Whether or not ATF does anything varies. I have know of people in this situation and it was someone the FFL knew so the ATF guy had him call and get it and then write it in.
Some states DL numbers are public record and you can get a LEO or PI or one of those background check firms to look it up for you.
12/5/2011 1:16:25 PM
one time someone spilled coffy all over the 4473........
12/5/2011 8:33:04 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Send him a letter at the address asking for help.
Whether or not ATF does anything varies. I have know of people in this situation and it was someone the FFL knew so the ATF guy had him call and get it and then write it in.
Some states DL numbers are public record and you can get a LEO or PI or one of those background check firms to look it up for you.
Send him a letter at the address asking for help.
Whether or not ATF does anything varies. I have know of people in this situation and it was someone the FFL knew so the ATF guy had him call and get it and then write it in.
Some states DL numbers are public record and you can get a LEO or PI or one of those background check firms to look it up for you.
I would go with this. Keep a copy of the letter with the completed 4473, if the customer doesn't reply you can at least show the ATF that you were attempting to be in compliance.
12/12/2011 9:55:18 PM
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Burn up a stamp and mail a request with your phone number.
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
Burn up a stamp and mail a request with your phone number.
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
I think you're joking because knowingly falsifying a 4473 is big time fed jail time.
12/12/2011 9:55:54 PM
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Only if your buddy wants to risk losing his job and being charged with a misdemeanor.
Originally Posted By jerrmy:
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
Only if your buddy wants to risk losing his job and being charged with a misdemeanor.
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Burn up a stamp and mail a request with your phone number.
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
Burn up a stamp and mail a request with your phone number.
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
12/12/2011 11:05:24 PM
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
while i agree that accessing the systems for non law enforcement reasons is in fact a crime and a career ender... <local sherrif got burned several years ago for using it for election purposes> i have never once seen an officer file a report for running someone's info.
while i agree that accessing the systems for non law enforcement reasons is in fact a crime and a career ender... <local sherrif got burned several years ago for using it for election purposes> i have never once seen an officer file a report for running someone's info.
Here it's actually a felony and we get trained and tested on it yearly. Running info through NCIC/ACJIS, etc for a non-official action is a no-no and we have logs and assigned login to track it. We get certified every two years and ours is headed by Dept. of Public Safety. You can't even give someone else your password for your account.
No cop that I know will run info on anybody outside of an investigation or traffic citation. You will get fired or worse. Friends ask me all the time and I tell them if they are a real friend, they wouldn't ask me.
12/12/2011 11:16:17 PM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
I think you're joking because knowingly falsifying a 4473 is big time fed jail time.
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Burn up a stamp and mail a request with your phone number.
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
Burn up a stamp and mail a request with your phone number.
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
I think you're joking because knowingly falsifying a 4473 is big time fed jail time.
It is a misdemeanor and single occurrence would probably just result in loss of license.
(3) Any licensed dealer, licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed collector who knowingly––
(A) makes any false statement or representation with respect to the information required by the provisions of this chapter to be
kept in the records of a person licensed under this chapter, or
(B) violates subsection (m) of section 922,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than one year, or both.12/13/2011 1:37:10 AM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
It is a misdemeanor and single occurrence would probably just result in loss of license.
FailOriginally Posted By jrzy:
I think you're joking because knowingly falsifying a 4473 is big time fed jail time.
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Burn up a stamp and mail a request with your phone number.
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
Burn up a stamp and mail a request with your phone number.
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
I think you're joking because knowingly falsifying a 4473 is big time fed jail time.
It is a misdemeanor and single occurrence would probably just result in loss of license.
(3) Any licensed dealer, licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed collector who knowingly–– (A) makes any false statement or representation with respect to the information required by the provisions of this chapter to be kept in the records of a person licensed under this chapter, or (B) violates subsection (m) of section 922, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than one year, or both.
There are more statutes than what you posted .
There are felony level crimes attached to violating the provisions set forth when filing out a 4473.
It all depends on what you lie about or why you lies or if you did so with intent knowingly .
12/13/2011 9:21:14 AM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
There are more statutes than what you posted .
There are felony level crimes attached to violating the provisions set forth when filing out a 4473.
It all depends on what you lie about or why you lies or if you did so with intent knowingly .
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
It is a misdemeanor and single occurrence would probably just result in loss of license.
FailOriginally Posted By jrzy:
I think you're joking because knowingly falsifying a 4473 is big time fed jail time.
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Burn up a stamp and mail a request with your phone number.
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
Burn up a stamp and mail a request with your phone number.
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
I think you're joking because knowingly falsifying a 4473 is big time fed jail time.
It is a misdemeanor and single occurrence would probably just result in loss of license.
(3) Any licensed dealer, licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed collector who knowingly––
(A) makes any false statement or representation with respect to the information required by the provisions of this chapter to be
kept in the records of a person licensed under this chapter, or
(B) violates subsection (m) of section 922,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than one year, or both.There are more statutes than what you posted .
There are felony level crimes attached to violating the provisions set forth when filing out a 4473.
It all depends on what you lie about or why you lies or if you did so with intent knowingly .
A dealer falsifying a 4473 falls under 922(m), which is NOT "big time fed jail time"
(m) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector knowingly to make any false entry in, to fail to make appropriate entry in, or to fail to properly maintain, any record which he is required to keep pursuant to section 923 of this chapter or regulations promulgated thereunder.A buyer falsifying a 4473 falls under 922(a)(6), which is a felony:
(6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or
attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed
collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written
statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or
misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such
importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any
fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of
such firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter(2) Whoever knowingly violates subsection (a)(6), (d), (g), (h), (i), (j), or (o) of section 922 shall be fined as provided in this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.
12/13/2011 11:29:49 AM
Making up a fake number to cover a simple error is stupid. Try your best to track the guy down, and get the number if you can. If you can't, so be it.
12/13/2011 12:40:07 PM
Please don't ask a LEO friend to run him. Same here in MO also about losing a job doing that. It's hard to make people understand that too.
12/13/2011 2:28:57 PM
You fail once again.
There are statutes from which a dealer falsifying a 4473 can be sent to club fed for a long while.
A simple mistake, no.
Making up info on a 4473 in attempt to derail the background check for unlawful purposes?
Yes, big time jail time, what's so hard about admitting you don't know everything?
There are statutes from which a dealer falsifying a 4473 can be sent to club fed for a long while.
A simple mistake, no.
Making up info on a 4473 in attempt to derail the background check for unlawful purposes?
Yes, big time jail time, what's so hard about admitting you don't know everything?
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
A dealer falsifying a 4473 falls under 922(m), which is NOT "big time fed jail time"
Originally Posted By jrzy:
There are more statutes than what you posted .
There are felony level crimes attached to violating the provisions set forth when filing out a 4473.
It all depends on what you lie about or why you lies or if you did so with intent knowingly .
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
It is a misdemeanor and single occurrence would probably just result in loss of license.
FailOriginally Posted By jrzy:
I think you're joking because knowingly falsifying a 4473 is big time fed jail time.
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Burn up a stamp and mail a request with your phone number.
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
Burn up a stamp and mail a request with your phone number.
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
I think you're joking because knowingly falsifying a 4473 is big time fed jail time.
It is a misdemeanor and single occurrence would probably just result in loss of license.
(3) Any licensed dealer, licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed collector who knowingly–– (A) makes any false statement or representation with respect to the information required by the provisions of this chapter to be kept in the records of a person licensed under this chapter, or (B) violates subsection (m) of section 922, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than one year, or both.
There are more statutes than what you posted .
There are felony level crimes attached to violating the provisions set forth when filing out a 4473.
It all depends on what you lie about or why you lies or if you did so with intent knowingly .
A dealer falsifying a 4473 falls under 922(m), which is NOT "big time fed jail time"
(m) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector knowingly to make any false entry in, to fail to make appropriate entry in, or to fail to properly maintain, any record which he is required to keep pursuant to section 923 of this chapter or regulations promulgated thereunder.A buyer falsifying a 4473 falls under 922(a)(6), which is a felony:
(6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter
(2) Whoever knowingly violates subsection (a)(6), (d), (g), (h), (i), (j), or (o) of section 922 shall be fined as provided in this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.
12/13/2011 2:45:50 PM
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
while i agree that accessing the systems for non law enforcement reasons is in fact a crime and a career ender... <local sherrif got burned several years ago for using it for election purposes> i have never once seen an officer file a report for running someone's info.
Originally Posted By ProjectCamaro:
Oh please nothing, it is highly illegal. All police departments have to turn in reports for every single person they search along with a list of the law enforcement reason for it. If there is no legal law enforcement reason for the search it is illegal and goes against the individual's basic fourth amendment right. No cop that I know would be willing to throw away his entire career and get arrested for this crime.
Originally Posted By myitinaw:
http://radiopatriot.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/oh-please.jpg
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Only if your buddy wants to risk losing his job and being charged with a misdemeanor.
Originally Posted By jerrmy:
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
Only if your buddy wants to risk losing his job and being charged with a misdemeanor.
http://radiopatriot.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/oh-please.jpg
Oh please nothing, it is highly illegal. All police departments have to turn in reports for every single person they search along with a list of the law enforcement reason for it. If there is no legal law enforcement reason for the search it is illegal and goes against the individual's basic fourth amendment right. No cop that I know would be willing to throw away his entire career and get arrested for this crime.
while i agree that accessing the systems for non law enforcement reasons is in fact a crime and a career ender... <local sherrif got burned several years ago for using it for election purposes> i have never once seen an officer file a report for running someone's info.
It is a weekly occurance, if not daily at a local organization. People are fired immediately. File a report? Maybe not, but everyone logs in, and there are cameras everywhere.
12/13/2011 3:47:46 PM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
You fail once again.
There are statutes from which a dealer falsifying a 4473 can be sent to club fed for a long while.
FIFYYou fail once again.
There are statutes from which a dealer falsifying a 4473 can be sent to club fed for a long while.
I know I posted them. Less than a year is not "long while". You are the one who cannot post them.
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Making up info on a 4473 in attempt to derail the background check for unlawful purposes?
Making up info on a 4473 in attempt to derail the background check for unlawful purposes?
That is not the case here. He is not trying to derail, he is covering up a failure to right something that was already lawfully transfered. You are argyuing over something and you do not even know what it is we are discussing.
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Yes, big time jail time, what's so hard about admitting you don't know everything?
Yes, big time jail time, what's so hard about admitting you don't know everything?
I never claimed to know everything, but if it makes you happy, I don't know everything. That was not hard at all.
Why don't you post the evidence it is "big time jail time" offense, so we all can learn? This is the FFL forum, we are all here to help each other out. Posting facts to back up your claims is much more beneficial to FFLs than just posting "fail" like some 8th grader.
12/13/2011 5:36:13 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
I know I posted them. Less than a year is not "long while". You are the one who cannot post them.
That is not the case here. He is not trying to derail, he is covering up a failure to right something that was already lawfully transfered. You are argyuing over something and you do not even know what it is we are discussing.
I never claimed to know everything, but if it makes you happy, I don't know everything. That was not hard at all.
Why don't you post the evidence it is "big time jail time" offense, so we all can learn? This is the FFL forum, we are all here to help each other out. Posting facts to back up your claims is much more beneficial to FFLs than just posting "fail" like some 8th grader.
OK if you insist I will dig up the various charges an FFL can be hung with when falsifying 4473's in different manners.Originally Posted By jrzy:
You fail once again.
There are statutes from which a dealer falsifying a 4473 can be sent to club fed for a long while.
FIFYYou fail once again.
There are statutes from which a dealer falsifying a 4473 can be sent to club fed for a long while.
I know I posted them. Less than a year is not "long while". You are the one who cannot post them.
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Making up info on a 4473 in attempt to derail the background check for unlawful purposes?
Making up info on a 4473 in attempt to derail the background check for unlawful purposes?
That is not the case here. He is not trying to derail, he is covering up a failure to right something that was already lawfully transfered. You are argyuing over something and you do not even know what it is we are discussing.
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Yes, big time jail time, what's so hard about admitting you don't know everything?
Yes, big time jail time, what's so hard about admitting you don't know everything?
I never claimed to know everything, but if it makes you happy, I don't know everything. That was not hard at all.
Why don't you post the evidence it is "big time jail time" offense, so we all can learn? This is the FFL forum, we are all here to help each other out. Posting facts to back up your claims is much more beneficial to FFLs than just posting "fail" like some 8th grader.
I really didn't have time to prove you are being obtuse and wrong.
I know exactly what you're saying and it goes a lot deeper than you posted.
Tonight if I get time I'll dig up the different charges and statutes, I f I have time.
I'm not a lawyer but I do hold 3 different 07 MFGing FFL's and one 01, I have seen dealers go to jail for different laws that deal directly with falsifying 4473's and other charges.
It was a lot longer than a year too.
By the way, what do you think the charge is for making up a totally false 4473?
A one year jail sentence?
12/13/2011 5:43:56 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
By the way, just curious, are you an FFL?01, 07?
what?
12/13/2011 6:16:01 PM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
By the way, what do you think the charge is for making up a totally false 4473?
A one year jail sentence?
By the way, what do you think the charge is for making up a totally false 4473?
A one year jail sentence?
We are not talking about "totally false 4473" and we never have. We are talking about making up a DL number AFTER the person has passed the NICS check and all other info on the 4473 is valid. That would be "knowingly to make any false entry, to fail to make appropriate entry in, or to fail to properly maintain, any record which he is required to keep", which is a 922(m) violation and according to 923(a)(B)(3), is a fine and no more than a year in jail.
I only know of one person who wrote bogus entries (NICS transaction numbers) to cover-up his failure to do it at the time of the NICS check. His license was taken away the second time they caught him. Nothing else. His wife then got an FFL and he is back in business, though his wife now does the paperwork.
(m) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector knowingly to make any false entry in, to fail to make appropriate entry in, or to fail to properly maintain, any record which he is required to keep pursuant to section 923 of this chapter or regulations promulgated thereunder.Here is your post that clearly stated making up a single number = falsifying a 4473 = big time fed jail time.
Originally Posted By jrzy:
I think you're joking because knowingly falsifying a 4473 is big time fed jail time.
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Burn up a stamp and mail a request with your phone number.
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
Burn up a stamp and mail a request with your phone number.
Would made up numbers be as bad as no numbers? Do they check? Maybe write in your license number and plead stupidity?
I think you're joking because knowingly falsifying a 4473 is big time fed jail time.
12/13/2011 7:03:25 PM
Previously I posted the US Code. Here is the CFR:
buyer lies = felony up to 5 years.
FFL lies < 1 year.
TITLE 27––ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS
CHAPTER II––BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION––Table of Contents
Subpart H_Records
Sec. 478.128 False statement or representation.
(a) Any person who knowingly makes any false statement or
representation in applying for any license or exemption or relief from
disability, under the provisions of the Act, shall be fined not more
than $5,000 or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b) Any person other than a licensed manufacturer, licensed
importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector who knowingly makes any
false statement or representation with respect to any information
required by the provisions of the Act or this part to be kept in the
records of a person licensed under the Act or this part shall be fined
not more than $5,000 or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) Any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer,
or licensed collector who knowingly makes any false statement or
representation with respect to any information required by the
provisions of the Act or this part to be kept in the records of a person
licensed under the Act or this part shall be fined not more than $1,000
or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.It is pretty simple-buyer lies = felony up to 5 years.
FFL lies < 1 year.
12/13/2011 7:42:52 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Previously I posted the US Code. Here is the CFR:
buyer lies = felony up to 5 years.
FFL lies < 1 year.
are you an FFL?Previously I posted the US Code. Here is the CFR:
buyer lies = felony up to 5 years.
FFL lies < 1 year.
it's not that simple and i'm done, this is the ffl forum and this is not worth arguing with someone who just looks at one law, there are many things an FFL can be charged under for falsifying a 4473, it depends on what the intent was or what he falsified.
So why duck the question on you being or not being an FFL?
12/13/2011 11:08:34 PM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
are you an FFL?
it's not that simple and i'm done, this is the ffl forum and this is not worth arguing with someone who just looks at one law, there are many things an FFL can be charged under for falsifying a 4473, it depends on what the intent was or what he falsified.
So why duck the question on you being or not being an FFL?
are you an FFL?
it's not that simple and i'm done, this is the ffl forum and this is not worth arguing with someone who just looks at one law, there are many things an FFL can be charged under for falsifying a 4473, it depends on what the intent was or what he falsified.
So why duck the question on you being or not being an FFL?
RenegadeX is an FFL and has been a regular on the AR15 FFL forum for years.
Instead of spouting off your superior knowledge and resume just post the citations that support your claim......RenegadeX did just that now its your turn.
12/14/2011 10:45:49 AM
Looks like jrzy has moved on to mucking up this thread - same MO, spout something without citing it specifically.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_44/356080_Help__receiveing_FFL_for_transfer_is_insisting_seller_must_send_through_FFL__or_is_breaking_the_law.html
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_44/356080_Help__receiveing_FFL_for_transfer_is_insisting_seller_must_send_through_FFL__or_is_breaking_the_law.html
12/14/2011 1:25:34 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Looks like jrzy has moved on to mucking up this thread - same MO, spout something without citing it specifically.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_44/356080_Help__receiveing_FFL_for_transfer_is_insisting_seller_must_send_through_FFL__or_is_breaking_the_law.html
Not really, I was responding to the fact the OP said it was refused by the FFL and returned to the org owner.Looks like jrzy has moved on to mucking up this thread - same MO, spout something without citing it specifically.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_44/356080_Help__receiveing_FFL_for_transfer_is_insisting_seller_must_send_through_FFL__or_is_breaking_the_law.html
I am not attacking you so don't start any shit please.
I will dig up some info on what FFL's can be charged under when I have time, I have a life and a business to run, I don't have all day to sit around and post on every topic like some here.
12/14/2011 1:30:58 PM
OK I just talked with my Local ATF expert, this is the guy who goes to court for the ATF.
As I suspected, simple mistake on a 4473 by a dealer can get you up to one year, I agree with that.
Falsifying a 4473 to facilitate the transfer of a weapon by a dealer to a felon or prohibited person can get you up to 10 years.
Here's the link to all the relevant statutes.
Some apply and some don't to this scenario.
http://ne.fd.org/publications/firearms_cheatsheet.pdf
As I suspected, simple mistake on a 4473 by a dealer can get you up to one year, I agree with that.
Falsifying a 4473 to facilitate the transfer of a weapon by a dealer to a felon or prohibited person can get you up to 10 years.
Here's the link to all the relevant statutes.
Some apply and some don't to this scenario.
http://ne.fd.org/publications/firearms_cheatsheet.pdf
12/14/2011 1:34:24 PM
Originally Posted By ProjectCamaro:
Oh please nothing, it is highly illegal. All police departments have to turn in reports for every single person they search along with a list of the law enforcement reason for it. If there is no legal law enforcement reason for the search it is illegal and goes against the individual's basic fourth amendment right. No cop that I know would be willing to throw away his entire career and get arrested for this crime.
Originally Posted By myitinaw:
http://radiopatriot.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/oh-please.jpg
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Only if your buddy wants to risk losing his job and being charged with a misdemeanor.
Originally Posted By jerrmy:
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
Only if your buddy wants to risk losing his job and being charged with a misdemeanor.
http://radiopatriot.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/oh-please.jpg
Oh please nothing, it is highly illegal. All police departments have to turn in reports for every single person they search along with a list of the law enforcement reason for it. If there is no legal law enforcement reason for the search it is illegal and goes against the individual's basic fourth amendment right. No cop that I know would be willing to throw away his entire career and get arrested for this crime.
Pretty sure the 4th amendment doesnt apply to that.
12/14/2011 1:43:18 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Looks like jrzy has moved on to mucking up this thread - same MO, spout something without citing it specifically.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_44/356080_Help__receiveing_FFL_for_transfer_is_insisting_seller_must_send_through_FFL__or_is_breaking_the_law.html
Looks like jrzy has moved on to mucking up this thread - same MO, spout something without citing it specifically.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_44/356080_Help__receiveing_FFL_for_transfer_is_insisting_seller_must_send_through_FFL__or_is_breaking_the_law.html
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;
922(a)(1)(A)
12/14/2011 6:08:52 PM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
As I suspected, simple mistake on a 4473 by a dealer can get you up to one year, I agree with that.
As I suspected, simple mistake on a 4473 by a dealer can get you up to one year, I agree with that.
That is what I have been saying all along.
If you suspected that, why did you bother stating "FAIL" and arguing about it so many times?
Never mind.
12/14/2011 6:17:00 PM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
922(a)(1)(A)
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Looks like jrzy has moved on to mucking up this thread - same MO, spout something without citing it specifically.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_44/356080_Help__receiveing_FFL_for_transfer_is_insisting_seller_must_send_through_FFL__or_is_breaking_the_law.html
Looks like jrzy has moved on to mucking up this thread - same MO, spout something without citing it specifically.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_44/356080_Help__receiveing_FFL_for_transfer_is_insisting_seller_must_send_through_FFL__or_is_breaking_the_law.html
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held topreclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licenseddealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm orreplacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person fromwhom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held topreclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned incompliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensedimporter, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensedcollector;
922(a)(1)(A)
You are on your own there, I am not getting involved in that mess. Glad to see you are learning to cite stuff.
ETA: Ok, I got involved anyway.
12/14/2011 6:49:55 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
You are on your own there, I am not getting involved in that mess. Glad to see you are learning to cite stuff.
I think we are on the same pageOriginally Posted By jrzy:
922(a)(1)(A)
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Looks like jrzy has moved on to mucking up this thread - same MO, spout something without citing it specifically.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_44/356080_Help__receiveing_FFL_for_transfer_is_insisting_seller_must_send_through_FFL__or_is_breaking_the_law.html
Looks like jrzy has moved on to mucking up this thread - same MO, spout something without citing it specifically.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_44/356080_Help__receiveing_FFL_for_transfer_is_insisting_seller_must_send_through_FFL__or_is_breaking_the_law.html
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held topreclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licenseddealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm orreplacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person fromwhom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held topreclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned incompliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensedimporter, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensedcollector;
922(a)(1)(A)
You are on your own there, I am not getting involved in that mess. Glad to see you are learning to cite stuff.
, I also think I misunderstood your point, long day.
I also waited till my contact at the ATF got back to me on that other thread.
12/14/2011 7:07:49 PM
It happens. No foul.
12/14/2011 7:12:41 PM
Its always a good idea to get a cell phone # on 4473s, for delays and times like this.
Search for him on 411.com and mail him a certified letter.
Search for him on 411.com and mail him a certified letter.
12/14/2011 7:18:06 PM
Assuming 411 cant find his number.
You have his address, call the power company there with name, pretend to be him, ask what phone number they have on file for "you" . record it, then go on from there. call him. explain situation. offer to send free spare mag for his gun. (YOU F-ed up and want to make it right, both his time for helping YOU fix it and not getting nailed by ATF).
You have his address, call the power company there with name, pretend to be him, ask what phone number they have on file for "you" . record it, then go on from there. call him. explain situation. offer to send free spare mag for his gun. (YOU F-ed up and want to make it right, both his time for helping YOU fix it and not getting nailed by ATF).
12/16/2011 10:30:29 PM
Contact the buyer to come back in to have the form amended. Remember to follow the instructions on the 4473 for how to make an amendment to a form (photocopy of the page with the error on it gets corrected, not the original).
12/19/2011 4:56:19 PM
Originally Posted By ProjectCamaro:
Oh please nothing, it is highly illegal. All police departments have to turn in reports for every single person they search along with a list of the law enforcement reason for it. If there is no legal law enforcement reason for the search it is illegal and goes against the individual's basic fourth amendment right. No cop that I know would be willing to throw away his entire career and get arrested for this crime.
Originally Posted By myitinaw:
http://radiopatriot.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/oh-please.jpg
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Only if your buddy wants to risk losing his job and being charged with a misdemeanor.
Originally Posted By jerrmy:
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
If you have a buddy who is a law enforcement officer he can use the name,address and DOB to track down the license number. Then fill it in. Keep you from getting dinged,.
Only if your buddy wants to risk losing his job and being charged with a misdemeanor.
http://radiopatriot.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/oh-please.jpg
Oh please nothing, it is highly illegal. All police departments have to turn in reports for every single person they search along with a list of the law enforcement reason for it. If there is no legal law enforcement reason for the search it is illegal and goes against the individual's basic fourth amendment right. No cop that I know would be willing to throw away his entire career and get arrested for this crime.
Are you confusing criminal histories with DMV files? I run hundreds of plates and names and DL #'s a month, and there are no CIB requirements for my Chief to turn in a report for any of them. I can run as many as I want...
12/20/2011 8:58:01 AM
In the future, make a copy of the DL and attach it to the 4473. Problem solved!
1/1/2012 10:09:17 AM
Some states DL numbers are easy to generate accurately.
In Florida the DL number is an algorithm of the First Middle and Last name combined with the date of birth. If you google Florida DL generator you will find a simple program to figure out DL numbers. I have tested it on dozens of Florida DL's and it is accurate.
First try to contact the customer, then figure out the numbering scheme for your state and if you can access it through public records.
Other states use the social. Figure out if you can get the correct number or leave it blank.
In Florida the DL number is an algorithm of the First Middle and Last name combined with the date of birth. If you google Florida DL generator you will find a simple program to figure out DL numbers. I have tested it on dozens of Florida DL's and it is accurate.
First try to contact the customer, then figure out the numbering scheme for your state and if you can access it through public records.
Other states use the social. Figure out if you can get the correct number or leave it blank.
1/7/2012 8:44:01 PM
I never thought about it before, because I live in a state where you have to present a special id (FOID) firearm owner's id card anyway, to purchase a firearm, but do you have to have a dl to purchase a firearm?
What if you don't have one; do you still need a state id of some sort?
I realize that most people have a dl, especially if they travel (passport, plane trips, etc.), but I imagine there are some circumstances where people may not have a gov't id card. What then?
What if you don't have one; do you still need a state id of some sort?
I realize that most people have a dl, especially if they travel (passport, plane trips, etc.), but I imagine there are some circumstances where people may not have a gov't id card. What then?
1/7/2012 10:29:31 PM
Originally Posted By Lazyshooter:
I never thought about it before, because I live in a state where you have to present a special id (FOID) firearm owner's id card anyway, to purchase a firearm, but do you have to have a dl to purchase a firearm?
What if you don't have one; do you still need a state id of some sort?
I realize that most people have a dl, especially if they travel (passport, plane trips, etc.), but I imagine there are some circumstances where people may not have a gov't id card. What then?
I never thought about it before, because I live in a state where you have to present a special id (FOID) firearm owner's id card anyway, to purchase a firearm, but do you have to have a dl to purchase a firearm?
What if you don't have one; do you still need a state id of some sort?
I realize that most people have a dl, especially if they travel (passport, plane trips, etc.), but I imagine there are some circumstances where people may not have a gov't id card. What then?
Then no gun for you, no exemptions.
1/8/2012 12:50:37 AM
Originally Posted By rcoers:
Then no gun for you, no exemptions.
Originally Posted By Lazyshooter:
I never thought about it before, because I live in a state where you have to present a special id (FOID) firearm owner's id card anyway, to purchase a firearm, but do you have to have a dl to purchase a firearm?
What if you don't have one; do you still need a state id of some sort?
I realize that most people have a dl, especially if they travel (passport, plane trips, etc.), but I imagine there are some circumstances where people may not have a gov't id card. What then?
I never thought about it before, because I live in a state where you have to present a special id (FOID) firearm owner's id card anyway, to purchase a firearm, but do you have to have a dl to purchase a firearm?
What if you don't have one; do you still need a state id of some sort?
I realize that most people have a dl, especially if they travel (passport, plane trips, etc.), but I imagine there are some circumstances where people may not have a gov't id card. What then?
Then no gun for you, no exemptions.
Yup
1/13/2012 7:50:38 PM
Originally Posted By Lazyshooter:
I never thought about it before, because I live in a state where you have to present a special id (FOID) firearm owner's id card anyway, to purchase a firearm, but do you have to have a dl to purchase a firearm?
What if you don't have one; do you still need a state id of some sort?
I realize that most people have a dl, especially if they travel (passport, plane trips, etc.), but I imagine there are some circumstances where people may not have a gov't id card. What then?
I never thought about it before, because I live in a state where you have to present a special id (FOID) firearm owner's id card anyway, to purchase a firearm, but do you have to have a dl to purchase a firearm?
What if you don't have one; do you still need a state id of some sort?
I realize that most people have a dl, especially if they travel (passport, plane trips, etc.), but I imagine there are some circumstances where people may not have a gov't id card. What then?
There is state ID cards if you don't want/ can't have a drivers license.
If you have no state issued ID, you'll only be able to buy private sales and not from FFLs.
