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Help! receiveing FFL for transfer is insisting seller must send through FFL, or is breaking the law
11/16/2011 7:13:03 PM
My old FFL of many years closed up shop and surrendered their license. I found a new shop with reasonable fees, and seemed good to go.
I purchased a rifle on Gunbroker, had my FFL send the seller a copy of their FFL, and then the seller shipped the rifle.
Today, I get a call from my new FFL saying "I need a copy of their FFL before I can transfer the rifle to you"
I explain to him it is a private individual, and I can geta copy of his drivers license if he wants.
My new FFL's response is "then they are breaking the law as a private individual can't ship a firearm"
I know this is definitely not the case, but I need some ATF regs to back this up. Can someone help me out?
And no, i won't be using this shop again.
Thanks.
I purchased a rifle on Gunbroker, had my FFL send the seller a copy of their FFL, and then the seller shipped the rifle.
Today, I get a call from my new FFL saying "I need a copy of their FFL before I can transfer the rifle to you"
I explain to him it is a private individual, and I can geta copy of his drivers license if he wants.
My new FFL's response is "then they are breaking the law as a private individual can't ship a firearm"
I know this is definitely not the case, but I need some ATF regs to back this up. Can someone help me out?
And no, i won't be using this shop again.
Thanks.
11/16/2011 7:17:14 PM
Are you sure it is not IL Law?
11/16/2011 7:25:43 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Are you sure it is not IL Law?
Are you sure it is not IL Law?
Yes I am sure unless something changed in the last 3-4 months.
11/16/2011 7:50:34 PM
Originally Posted By Dawg180:
My new FFL's response is "then they are breaking the law as a private individual can't ship a firearm"
My new FFL's response is "then they are breaking the law as a private individual can't ship a firearm"
Bravo sierra:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#shipping-firearms-usps
That said, the transfer FFL is probably mad that you asked him to send a copy of his license to a non-FFL. All he needed to send was the first 3 and last 5 digits of his license number so the seller could use FFL EZCheck to verify his license.
11/16/2011 8:01:48 PM
Thanks guys.
I contacted an FFL in state that I know, got the pertinent info and ATF office contact person to clarify this.
The new FFL at no point said that he needed an FFL from the seller, and if he requires this for his own personal reasons he isn't going to stay in business very long. I would not have asked him to send a copy of his FFL except that he offered to. The only reason I used him is he is 30 minutes away compared to 90 minutes away, which is a big deal with 24 hour waits which means *two* trips to the FFL to get a rifle- one for paperwork and one more than 24 hours later to pick up.
Should have just stuck with the guys I know.
I contacted an FFL in state that I know, got the pertinent info and ATF office contact person to clarify this.
The new FFL at no point said that he needed an FFL from the seller, and if he requires this for his own personal reasons he isn't going to stay in business very long. I would not have asked him to send a copy of his FFL except that he offered to. The only reason I used him is he is 30 minutes away compared to 90 minutes away, which is a big deal with 24 hour waits which means *two* trips to the FFL to get a rifle- one for paperwork and one more than 24 hours later to pick up.
Should have just stuck with the guys I know.
11/16/2011 10:41:54 PM
At first I thought this guy was just new and being cautious, but after we talked he also tells me it is unlawful for an individual to ship a rifle by common carrier.
He is shipping the rifle back to the seller, and me and the seller both agree the guy doesn't know what he is doing and we will use a new FFL- if th FFL knows this little about what he is doing, I definitely don't want him doing any paperwork fora transfer. Thankfully the seller was very sympathetic and understanding about the whole deal.
He is shipping the rifle back to the seller, and me and the seller both agree the guy doesn't know what he is doing and we will use a new FFL- if th FFL knows this little about what he is doing, I definitely don't want him doing any paperwork fora transfer. Thankfully the seller was very sympathetic and understanding about the whole deal.
11/16/2011 10:53:40 PM
I had a problem with an FFL that I had shipped a rifle to for a GB buyer. The buyer gave me the FFL's info and #, so I EZ checked it and sent it out.
The FFL called me up and swore I was going to jail for illegally shipping a firearm to him.
He called the ATF and then he called me back and apologized.
The FFL called me up and swore I was going to jail for illegally shipping a firearm to him.
He called the ATF and then he called me back and apologized.
11/17/2011 8:00:42 AM
Name the store
11/17/2011 9:12:57 AM
Your new FFL is an idiot. An individual has been able to transfer to an FFL (in any state) since the Gun Control Act was passed in 1968
11/17/2011 11:13:56 AM
Originally Posted By 1IV:
Name the store
Name the store
I will as soon as they ship the rifle back to the seller so I can send it to a different FFL.
11/17/2011 11:22:58 AM
or have the ffl send to your NEW F F L
send it once
send it once
11/17/2011 11:33:51 AM
Originally Posted By sniper1target:
or have the ffl send to your NEW F F L
send it once
or have the ffl send to your NEW F F L
send it once
He won't do that.
11/17/2011 11:47:58 AM
even if the seller says so /?
the FFL that jaming up our good name hes an I D O T
the FFL that jaming up our good name hes an I D O T
11/17/2011 11:51:32 AM
the whole idea of this is a trail
its in his boundBOOK now it would be
a safe way to send it to an FFL (better than) back
to a private person....
sorry for your (and sellers) grief
its in his boundBOOK now it would be
a safe way to send it to an FFL (better than) back
to a private person....
sorry for your (and sellers) grief
11/17/2011 12:03:42 PM
Originally Posted By Dawg180:
I will as soon as they ship the rifle back to the seller so I can send it to a different FFL.
Originally Posted By 1IV:
Name the store
Name the store
I will as soon as they ship the rifle back to the seller so I can send it to a different FFL.
Through his own arrogance and more importantly ignorance he is the now the one breaking the law. He can not send a firearm directly to an unlicensed invididual, the only exemption is for a gunsmithing return. Tell him to pick up a regulation book and actually read it.
11/17/2011 12:06:33 PM
Wait, so idiot FFL says he can't complete the transfer because sender is not an FFL, and his solution to this problem is to send the gun back across state lines to a non FFL? Hmmmm... I see you are in IL. If you would be so kind might you pm me the name of this guy? I would like to avoid using him.
11/17/2011 12:55:39 PM
oooooooooohhhh leme call said I D O T .........
(na i better not)
(na i better not)
11/17/2011 3:13:28 PM
Originally Posted By Dawg180:
I will as soon as they ship the rifle back to the seller so I can send it to a different FFL.
Originally Posted By 1IV:
Name the store
Name the store
I will as soon as they ship the rifle back to the seller so I can send it to a different FFL.
The FFL will be breaking the law if he ships the rifle to an unlicensed person in another state.
11/17/2011 3:51:03 PM
Originally Posted By EOD_Guy:
The FFL will be breaking the law if he ships the rifle to an unlicensed person in another state.
The FFL will be breaking the law if he ships the rifle to an unlicensed person in another state.
FIFY. Yes, I know it's theoretically possible to do it to someone in-state w/ a 4473 Part II, but I'm betting the clueless FFL doesn't know about it.
11/17/2011 4:15:27 PM
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
FIFY. Yes, I know it's theoretically possible to do it to someone in-state w/ a 4473 Part II, but I'm betting the clueless FFL doesn't know about it.
Originally Posted By EOD_Guy:
The FFL will be breaking the law if he ships the rifle to an unlicensed person in another state.
The FFL will be breaking the law if he ships the rifle to an unlicensed person in another state.
FIFY. Yes, I know it's theoretically possible to do it to someone in-state w/ a 4473 Part II, but I'm betting the clueless FFL doesn't know about it.
You're right. I forgot the dealer aspect rather than between unlicensed individuals. I don't think a 4473, part II would be appropriate in this case.
11/17/2011 4:36:53 PM
at this point i'd have the ATF call the jerk and tell him what to do...
or have the seller call the ATF and figger it out
like send it to the NEW F F L
poof done, quit jacking around
easy F F L to F F L
or have the seller call the ATF and figger it out
like send it to the NEW F F L
poof done, quit jacking around
easy F F L to F F L
12/3/2011 12:07:40 PM
Finally got the rifle back to the original seller
The FFL who was clueless is SemprFi Supply in South Elgin, Illinois.
I do not recommend using them.
The FFL who was clueless is SemprFi Supply in South Elgin, Illinois.
I do not recommend using them.
12/5/2011 12:05:01 AM
He can send it back to the original owner as no transfer has taken place. But it is good to know the name of the so called dealer.
12/5/2011 12:13:27 AM
Originally Posted By Dawg180:
Finally got the rifle back to the original seller
The FFL who was clueless is SemprFi Supply in South Elgin, Illinois.
I do not recommend using them.
Finally got the rifle back to the original seller
The FFL who was clueless is SemprFi Supply in South Elgin, Illinois.
I do not recommend using them.
what an idiot. I just looked up his web site and he claims he has the cheapest transfers
Semper Fi Supply Believes in Excellent Service With Rock Bottom Prices (Unlike the Other Guys)
That's Why We Offer The Cheapest FFL Transfers in Chicagoland!
what a joke.
glad you got this sorted out
12/5/2011 8:56:00 AM
Originally Posted By tommee-boy-72:
He can send it back to the original owner as no transfer has taken place. But it is good to know the name of the so called dealer.
He can send it back to the original owner as no transfer has taken place. But it is good to know the name of the so called dealer.
You are 100% incorrect.
12/5/2011 9:04:13 AM
Originally Posted By rcoers:
You are 100% incorrect.
Originally Posted By tommee-boy-72:
He can send it back to the original owner as no transfer has taken place. But it is good to know the name of the so called dealer.
He can send it back to the original owner as no transfer has taken place. But it is good to know the name of the so called dealer.
You are 100% incorrect.
He refused the package from UPS, so tehcnically he never received it.
12/5/2011 9:59:59 AM
Originally Posted By Dawg180:
He refused the package from UPS, so tehcnically he never received it.
Originally Posted By rcoers:
You are 100% incorrect.
Originally Posted By tommee-boy-72:
He can send it back to the original owner as no transfer has taken place. But it is good to know the name of the so called dealer.
He can send it back to the original owner as no transfer has taken place. But it is good to know the name of the so called dealer.
You are 100% incorrect.
He refused the package from UPS, so tehcnically he never received it.
My bad, didn't read enough I guess. I thought he had got it into his store and then he called you.
12/5/2011 10:07:54 AM
I actually put such a disclaimer in my online auctions.
"Please be sure you have a SANE FFL who knows the rules, and will accept a firearm for transfer from an unlicensed out-state private seller, thanks."
"Please be sure you have a SANE FFL who knows the rules, and will accept a firearm for transfer from an unlicensed out-state private seller, thanks."
12/5/2011 12:24:24 PM
Originally Posted By rcoers:
My bad, didn't read enough I guess. I thought he had got it into his store and then he called you.
Originally Posted By Dawg180:
He refused the package from UPS, so tehcnically he never received it.
Originally Posted By rcoers:
You are 100% incorrect.
Originally Posted By tommee-boy-72:
He can send it back to the original owner as no transfer has taken place. But it is good to know the name of the so called dealer.
He can send it back to the original owner as no transfer has taken place. But it is good to know the name of the so called dealer.
You are 100% incorrect.
He refused the package from UPS, so tehcnically he never received it.
My bad, didn't read enough I guess. I thought he had got it into his store and then he called you.
He did have to open the box to find there was no FFL in it, so I guess it is a bit of a gray area.
Regardless, he knew nothing about FFL laws, and he cost me shipping to a new FFL. At least the seller was very cool about the whole deal.
12/14/2011 12:18:06 AM
Originally Posted By rcoers:
You are 100% incorrect.
No he's not.Originally Posted By tommee-boy-72:
He can send it back to the original owner as no transfer has taken place. But it is good to know the name of the so called dealer.
He can send it back to the original owner as no transfer has taken place. But it is good to know the name of the so called dealer.
You are 100% incorrect.
A firearm can be returned to the org owner
12/14/2011 8:42:23 AM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
A firearm can be returned to the org owner
Originally Posted By rcoers:
You are 100% incorrect.
No he's not.
Originally Posted By tommee-boy-72:
He can send it back to the original owner as no transfer has taken place. But it is good to know the name of the so called dealer.
He can send it back to the original owner as no transfer has taken place. But it is good to know the name of the so called dealer.
You are 100% incorrect.
A firearm can be returned to the org owner
Show me where it says that. It can only be returned to the original owner without going through a dealer for gunsmithing purposes.
12/14/2011 10:15:09 AM
rcoers is correct.
27CFR §478.147 allows the return of a firearm by a licensee to the individual who sent the firearm to that licensee. That section also refers the reader to §124(a) for the requirement of a Form 4473 prior to return.
Here is what §124(a) says:
A Form 4473 must be completed prior to the return of the firearm to a nonlicensee. There is an exception for firearms sent for customizing or repair. In that case, no 4473 is required and the firearm can be returned to the unlicensed sender. If it was sent for transfer, the firearm cannot be returned wihthout the sender appearing at the dealer and completing a 4473. Even that wouldn't be allowed if the firearm was a handgun.
27CFR §478.147 allows the return of a firearm by a licensee to the individual who sent the firearm to that licensee. That section also refers the reader to §124(a) for the requirement of a Form 4473 prior to return.
Here is what §124(a) says:
TITLE 27––ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS
CHAPTER II––BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION––Table of Contents
Subpart H_Records
Sec. 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer
shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any
firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee
records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473:
Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473,
shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm
delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing
when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person
from whom received.
CHAPTER II––BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION––Table of Contents
Subpart H_Records
Sec. 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer
shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any
firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee
records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473:
Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473,
shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm
delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing
when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person
from whom received.
A Form 4473 must be completed prior to the return of the firearm to a nonlicensee. There is an exception for firearms sent for customizing or repair. In that case, no 4473 is required and the firearm can be returned to the unlicensed sender. If it was sent for transfer, the firearm cannot be returned wihthout the sender appearing at the dealer and completing a 4473. Even that wouldn't be allowed if the firearm was a handgun.
12/14/2011 1:38:39 PM
Originally Posted By rcoers:
Show me where it says that. It can only be returned to the original owner without going through a dealer for gunsmithing purposes.
Originally Posted By jrzy:
A firearm can be returned to the org owner
Originally Posted By rcoers:
You are 100% incorrect.
No he's not.Originally Posted By tommee-boy-72:
He can send it back to the original owner as no transfer has taken place. But it is good to know the name of the so called dealer.
He can send it back to the original owner as no transfer has taken place. But it is good to know the name of the so called dealer.
You are 100% incorrect.
A firearm can be returned to the org owner
Show me where it says that. It can only be returned to the original owner without going through a dealer for gunsmithing purposes.
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;
922(a)(1)(A)
12/14/2011 1:57:03 PM
Originally Posted By EOD_Guy:
rcoers is correct.
27CFR §478.147 allows the return of a firearm by a licensee to the individual who sent the firearm to that licensee. That section also refers the reader to §124(a) for the requirement of a Form 4473 prior to return.
Here is what §124(a) says:
A Form 4473 must be completed prior to the return of the firearm to a nonlicensee. There is an exception for firearms sent for customizing or repair. In that case, no 4473 is required and the firearm can be returned to the unlicensed sender. If it was sent for transfer, the firearm cannot be returned wihthout the sender appearing at the dealer and completing a 4473. Even that wouldn't be allowed if the firearm was a handgun.
Wrong 922(a)(1)(A)
rcoers is correct.
27CFR §478.147 allows the return of a firearm by a licensee to the individual who sent the firearm to that licensee. That section also refers the reader to §124(a) for the requirement of a Form 4473 prior to return.
Here is what §124(a) says:
TITLE 27––ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS
CHAPTER II––BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION––Table of Contents
Subpart H_Records
Sec. 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer
shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any
firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee
records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473:
Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473,
shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm
delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing
when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person
from whom received.
CHAPTER II––BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION––Table of Contents
Subpart H_Records
Sec. 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer
shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any
firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee
records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473:
Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473,
shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm
delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing
when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person
from whom received.
A Form 4473 must be completed prior to the return of the firearm to a nonlicensee. There is an exception for firearms sent for customizing or repair. In that case, no 4473 is required and the firearm can be returned to the unlicensed sender. If it was sent for transfer, the firearm cannot be returned wihthout the sender appearing at the dealer and completing a 4473. Even that wouldn't be allowed if the firearm was a handgun.
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922
12/14/2011 2:54:21 PM
That is talking about the return of a repaired firearm (or replacement). You are wrong. Joe Blow can't ship a firearm to an FFL and then have the FFL send it back to them on a whim, it has to go to a dealer or a 4473 has to be done. Only exception being gunsmithing. It has been explained to you by both myself and EOD, yet you continue to argue.
Once a gun comes into the licensed location of an FFL, it goes in his records and he can not give it to an unlicensed person without a 4473 or going to a dealer - THE ONLY EXCEPTION IS GUNSMITHING. Otherwise a pawnbroker could just pawn firearms and never run NICS checks on a person after they pay off the pawn. Same with consignments. The regulations do not allow for "returns" without paperwork. I don't get why you don't understand that.
Once a gun comes into the licensed location of an FFL, it goes in his records and he can not give it to an unlicensed person without a 4473 or going to a dealer - THE ONLY EXCEPTION IS GUNSMITHING. Otherwise a pawnbroker could just pawn firearms and never run NICS checks on a person after they pay off the pawn. Same with consignments. The regulations do not allow for "returns" without paperwork. I don't get why you don't understand that.
12/14/2011 3:17:12 PM
So if we use your rationale, I could give a firearm to a dealer to sell on consignment - then if it doesn't sell, he can return it to me without doing paperwork? Afterall, that's just a "return" of my firearm. ATF disagrees:
Q: Must a dealer record firearms received on consignment?
Q: Must a dealer record firearms received on consignment?
Yes. Firearms received for sale on consignment must be entered in the dealer’s “bound book.”
Sales of the firearms are handled in the same manner as other firearm sales. Return of the remaining firearms by the licensee to the consignor is entered in the dealer’s disposition record. An ATF Form 4473 and a NICS check must be completed.
Sales of the firearms are handled in the same manner as other firearm sales. Return of the remaining firearms by the licensee to the consignor is entered in the dealer’s disposition record. An ATF Form 4473 and a NICS check must be completed.
12/14/2011 6:35:06 PM
Originally Posted By rcoers:
That is talking about the return of a repaired firearm (or replacement). You are wrong. Joe Blow can't ship a firearm to an FFL and then have the FFL send it back to them on a whim, it has to go to a dealer or a 4473 has to be done. Only exception being gunsmithing. It has been explained to you by both myself and EOD, yet you continue to argue.
Once a gun comes into the licensed location of an FFL, it goes in his records and he can not give it to an unlicensed person without a 4473 or going to a dealer - THE ONLY EXCEPTION IS GUNSMITHING. Otherwise a pawnbroker could just pawn firearms and never run NICS checks on a person after they pay off the pawn. Same with consignments. The regulations do not allow for "returns" without paperwork. I don't get why you don't understand that.
Gunsmithing is not the only reason.That is talking about the return of a repaired firearm (or replacement). You are wrong. Joe Blow can't ship a firearm to an FFL and then have the FFL send it back to them on a whim, it has to go to a dealer or a 4473 has to be done. Only exception being gunsmithing. It has been explained to you by both myself and EOD, yet you continue to argue.
Once a gun comes into the licensed location of an FFL, it goes in his records and he can not give it to an unlicensed person without a 4473 or going to a dealer - THE ONLY EXCEPTION IS GUNSMITHING. Otherwise a pawnbroker could just pawn firearms and never run NICS checks on a person after they pay off the pawn. Same with consignments. The regulations do not allow for "returns" without paperwork. I don't get why you don't understand that.
I am an 07 , we can send the guy back a replacement gun with a whole new serial number and not do a 4473.
The law and statute is posted, it is correct, It was verified with the ATF today.
I'm not arguing the point anymore, there are other reasons a FFL can send back the gun to the org owner besides gunsmithing.
You ar confusing an 01 over the counter transaction with shipping back and forth between the FFL and the owner of the weapon.
Where do you think I got that statute from?
If A customer sends back his gun to us, if it is beyond repair, we can send him a wole new gun and do not need to do anymore paperwork than the log out to him and off it goes to his house Via UPS.
12/14/2011 6:41:34 PM
Originally Posted By rcoers:
So if we use your rationale, I could give a firearm to a dealer to sell on consignment - then if it doesn't sell, he can return it to me without doing paperwork? Afterall, that's just a "return" of my firearm. ATF disagrees:
Q: Must a dealer record firearms received on consignment?
You're wrong, it is not my rational , it is the ATF who quoted this very thing to me today.So if we use your rationale, I could give a firearm to a dealer to sell on consignment - then if it doesn't sell, he can return it to me without doing paperwork? Afterall, that's just a "return" of my firearm. ATF disagrees:
Q: Must a dealer record firearms received on consignment?
Yes. Firearms received for sale on consignment must be entered in the dealer’s "bound book.”
Sales of the firearms are handled in the same manner as other firearm sales. Return of the remaining firearms by the licensee to the consignor is entered in the dealer’s disposition record. An ATF Form 4473 and a NICS check must be completed.
Sales of the firearms are handled in the same manner as other firearm sales. Return of the remaining firearms by the licensee to the consignor is entered in the dealer’s disposition record. An ATF Form 4473 and a NICS check must be completed.
922(a)(1)(A)
You talking about two different things.
The gun gets shipped to an FFL for whatever reason , the FFL can return it to the org owner and does not have to do a 4473.
In a drop off to a local FFL the FFL has to do a 4473 and NICS check before he can return the gun.
You're making yourself look kinda a bad here, quoted the law from the ATF yet you refuse to acknowledge it?
Say my brand new Remington 1911 goes boom. (lets say I am not an FFL)
I send it back to remington, they say it's not worth repairing but say they will replace it.
All they do is log it out to me and send it directly to me.
12/14/2011 6:46:30 PM
Originally Posted By rcoers:
That is talking about the return of a repaired firearm (or replacement). You are wrong. Joe Blow can't ship a firearm to an FFL and then have the FFL send it back to them on a whim, it has to go to a dealer or a 4473 has to be done. Only exception being gunsmithing. It has been explained to you by both myself and EOD, yet you continue to argue.
Once a gun comes into the licensed location of an FFL, it goes in his records and he can not give it to an unlicensed person without a 4473 or going to a dealer - THE ONLY EXCEPTION IS GUNSMITHING. Otherwise a pawnbroker could just pawn firearms and never run NICS checks on a person after they pay off the pawn. Same with consignments. The regulations do not allow for "returns" without paperwork. I don't get why you don't understand that.
That is talking about the return of a repaired firearm (or replacement). You are wrong. Joe Blow can't ship a firearm to an FFL and then have the FFL send it back to them on a whim, it has to go to a dealer or a 4473 has to be done. Only exception being gunsmithing. It has been explained to you by both myself and EOD, yet you continue to argue.
Once a gun comes into the licensed location of an FFL, it goes in his records and he can not give it to an unlicensed person without a 4473 or going to a dealer - THE ONLY EXCEPTION IS GUNSMITHING. Otherwise a pawnbroker could just pawn firearms and never run NICS checks on a person after they pay off the pawn. Same with consignments. The regulations do not allow for "returns" without paperwork. I don't get why you don't understand that.
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;
In this statute there is no reason needed.
I can send the guy back his gun no matter why he sent it to us.
You research the quoted statute and get back to me.
But you obviously think you know more than the head of the harrisburg Pa field office who is the expert the govt relies on for a lot of their court cases.
12/14/2011 6:54:33 PM
Originally Posted By rcoers:
That is talking about the return of a repaired firearm (or replacement). You are wrong. Joe Blow can't ship a firearm to an FFL and then have the FFL send it back to them on a whim, it has to go to a dealer or a 4473 has to be done. Only exception being gunsmithing. It has been explained to you by both myself and EOD, yet you continue to argue.
Once a gun comes into the licensed location of an FFL, it goes in his records and he can not give it to an unlicensed person without a 4473 or going to a dealer - THE ONLY EXCEPTION IS GUNSMITHING. Otherwise a pawnbroker could just pawn firearms and never run NICS checks on a person after they pay off the pawn. Same with consignments. The regulations do not allow for "returns" without paperwork. I don't get why you don't understand that.
The only regulation you have quoted is none.That is talking about the return of a repaired firearm (or replacement). You are wrong. Joe Blow can't ship a firearm to an FFL and then have the FFL send it back to them on a whim, it has to go to a dealer or a 4473 has to be done. Only exception being gunsmithing. It has been explained to you by both myself and EOD, yet you continue to argue.
Once a gun comes into the licensed location of an FFL, it goes in his records and he can not give it to an unlicensed person without a 4473 or going to a dealer - THE ONLY EXCEPTION IS GUNSMITHING. Otherwise a pawnbroker could just pawn firearms and never run NICS checks on a person after they pay off the pawn. Same with consignments. The regulations do not allow for "returns" without paperwork. I don't get why you don't understand that.
The only one that matters here is the one I quoted, unless it is a local in the shop transaction, then the pawn broker of FFL needs to do the 4473 and check before he can return the gun.
We are not bound by that in a shipping interstate
12/14/2011 6:55:35 PM
jrzy is correct.
Happens all the time, especially in NFA. You send your HK91 to an FFL/SOT for conversion to HK51, after two years he has not touched it. You ask him to send it back even though he performed no gunsmithing at all. He does, 100% legal.
And as for a sending you a different gun of same kind/like and different SN, that is exactly what Glock did a few years ago when it replaced all those Glock 21s with out-of-spec rails. Again, 100% legal.
Happens all the time, especially in NFA. You send your HK91 to an FFL/SOT for conversion to HK51, after two years he has not touched it. You ask him to send it back even though he performed no gunsmithing at all. He does, 100% legal.
And as for a sending you a different gun of same kind/like and different SN, that is exactly what Glock did a few years ago when it replaced all those Glock 21s with out-of-spec rails. Again, 100% legal.
12/14/2011 7:48:29 PM
Stumbled across this thread and was kind of surprised to hear this about Semper Fi Supply.
I have spent alot of money at Semper Fi as well and SEVERAL people that i know.
I've never heard one complaint about them from new purchases as well as FFL transfers.
Everytime i'm there, the store is packed and he was telling me that he does over 100 transfers a week.
It sucks that Dawg had a bad experience but i'd hate to see a great local dealer get a bad name because of one unhappy person. Perhaps it was just a matter of miscommunication
I have spent alot of money at Semper Fi as well and SEVERAL people that i know.
I've never heard one complaint about them from new purchases as well as FFL transfers.
Everytime i'm there, the store is packed and he was telling me that he does over 100 transfers a week.
It sucks that Dawg had a bad experience but i'd hate to see a great local dealer get a bad name because of one unhappy person. Perhaps it was just a matter of miscommunication
12/14/2011 10:08:16 PM
Originally Posted By ChitownShooter:
Stumbled across this thread and was kind of surprised to hear this about Semper Fi Supply.
I have spent alot of money at Semper Fi as well and SEVERAL people that i know.
I've never heard one complaint about them from new purchases as well as FFL transfers.
Everytime i'm there, the store is packed and he was telling me that he does over 100 transfers a week.
It sucks that Dawg had a bad experience but i'd hate to see a great local dealer get a bad name because of one unhappy person. Perhaps it was just a matter of miscommunication
The OP has been here since 2002 and has over 14K in posts, I'm sure he has done many firearm transactions and knows what is what.Stumbled across this thread and was kind of surprised to hear this about Semper Fi Supply.
I have spent alot of money at Semper Fi as well and SEVERAL people that i know.
I've never heard one complaint about them from new purchases as well as FFL transfers.
Everytime i'm there, the store is packed and he was telling me that he does over 100 transfers a week.
It sucks that Dawg had a bad experience but i'd hate to see a great local dealer get a bad name because of one unhappy person. Perhaps it was just a matter of miscommunication
This doesn't sound like a miscommunication to me.
It sounds like an arrogant FFL who does not know the laws and has a disregard for his customers.
He made no effort to salvage the deal and help out the sender and his own customer.
There are more than a few ways he could have helped if he gave a fuck.
I am busy as all hell yet still manage to help all my customers.
I put the buyers purchase experience first in line so it all goes smooth and he or she is happy.
Does this sound like your FFL?
Doubtful!
Who are you again?
One post just to address this huh?
12/14/2011 10:47:11 PM
Originally Posted By ChitownShooter:
Stumbled across this thread and was kind of surprised to hear this about Semper Fi Supply.
I have spent alot of money at Semper Fi as well and SEVERAL people that i know.
I've never heard one complaint about them from new purchases as well as FFL transfers.
Everytime i'm there, the store is packed and he was telling me that he does over 100 transfers a week.
It sucks that Dawg had a bad experience but i'd hate to see a great local dealer get a bad name because of one unhappy person. Perhaps it was just a matter of miscommunication
Stumbled across this thread and was kind of surprised to hear this about Semper Fi Supply.
I have spent alot of money at Semper Fi as well and SEVERAL people that i know.
I've never heard one complaint about them from new purchases as well as FFL transfers.
Everytime i'm there, the store is packed and he was telling me that he does over 100 transfers a week.
It sucks that Dawg had a bad experience but i'd hate to see a great local dealer get a bad name because of one unhappy person. Perhaps it was just a matter of miscommunication
Well if his policy was to not allow shipments from private individuals he never at any time in our communication stated that. It is not against the law (which he most certainly said it was in all our email communication) and it cost me quite a bit of money to have it shipped back to the original seller and then to a new FFL who knows the law.
I have done transfers through multiple FFL's over the last 10 years, my favorite of which is retired now but confirmed (along with another active FFL that is some distance away - the only reason I used Semper Fi in the first place) Semper Fi was completely wrong about the legality of it all. In fact, they both gave me the number for the Downers Grove ATF office and said that Semper Fi should call and would be given a clear and direct answer that it is completely legal for an out of state individual to mail it to an FFL. Jeremiah at Semper Fi refused to contact the FFL and simply repeated that it was illegal.
Their lack of knowledge of the law and their refusal to make a simple 5 minute phone call cost me $50 in shipping and about four weeks in round trip time for my rifle. I am sure their store side operations are good and they may have many happy customers, but based on my experience with them I will not personally use or recommend them to anyone.
12/14/2011 11:01:18 PM
Originally Posted By ChitownShooter:
Stumbled across this thread and was kind of surprised to hear this about Semper Fi Supply.
I have spent alot of money at Semper Fi as well and SEVERAL people that i know.
I've never heard one complaint about them from new purchases as well as FFL transfers.
Everytime i'm there, the store is packed and he was telling me that he does over 100 transfers a week.
It sucks that Dawg had a bad experience but i'd hate to see a great local dealer get a bad name because of one unhappy person. Perhaps it was just a matter of miscommunication
Stumbled across this thread and was kind of surprised to hear this about Semper Fi Supply.
I have spent alot of money at Semper Fi as well and SEVERAL people that i know.
I've never heard one complaint about them from new purchases as well as FFL transfers.
Everytime i'm there, the store is packed and he was telling me that he does over 100 transfers a week.
It sucks that Dawg had a bad experience but i'd hate to see a great local dealer get a bad name because of one unhappy person. Perhaps it was just a matter of miscommunication
you must be either the owner or somebody else connected with this outfit.
Personally as somebody that is a FFL I find the way they do business appalling and people like this quite honestly should not be in business especially if they do not know what the laws are.
Perhaps he should read up on what the laws before he operates a business
12/15/2011 9:44:24 AM
Originally Posted By jrzy:
I am an 07 , we can send the guy back a replacement gun with a whole new serial number and not do a 4473.
The law and statute is posted, it is correct, It was verified with the ATF today.
I'm not arguing the point anymore, there are other reasons a FFL can send back the gun to the org owner besides gunsmithing.
You ar confusing an 01 over the counter transaction with shipping back and forth between the FFL and the owner of the weapon.
Where do you think I got that statute from?
If A customer sends back his gun to us, if it is beyond repair, we can send him a wole new gun and do not need to do anymore paperwork than the log out to him and off it goes to his house Via UPS.
Originally Posted By rcoers:
That is talking about the return of a repaired firearm (or replacement). You are wrong. Joe Blow can't ship a firearm to an FFL and then have the FFL send it back to them on a whim, it has to go to a dealer or a 4473 has to be done. Only exception being gunsmithing. It has been explained to you by both myself and EOD, yet you continue to argue.
Once a gun comes into the licensed location of an FFL, it goes in his records and he can not give it to an unlicensed person without a 4473 or going to a dealer - THE ONLY EXCEPTION IS GUNSMITHING. Otherwise a pawnbroker could just pawn firearms and never run NICS checks on a person after they pay off the pawn. Same with consignments. The regulations do not allow for "returns" without paperwork. I don't get why you don't understand that.
Gunsmithing is not the only reason.
That is talking about the return of a repaired firearm (or replacement). You are wrong. Joe Blow can't ship a firearm to an FFL and then have the FFL send it back to them on a whim, it has to go to a dealer or a 4473 has to be done. Only exception being gunsmithing. It has been explained to you by both myself and EOD, yet you continue to argue.
Once a gun comes into the licensed location of an FFL, it goes in his records and he can not give it to an unlicensed person without a 4473 or going to a dealer - THE ONLY EXCEPTION IS GUNSMITHING. Otherwise a pawnbroker could just pawn firearms and never run NICS checks on a person after they pay off the pawn. Same with consignments. The regulations do not allow for "returns" without paperwork. I don't get why you don't understand that.
I am an 07 , we can send the guy back a replacement gun with a whole new serial number and not do a 4473.
The law and statute is posted, it is correct, It was verified with the ATF today.
I'm not arguing the point anymore, there are other reasons a FFL can send back the gun to the org owner besides gunsmithing.
You ar confusing an 01 over the counter transaction with shipping back and forth between the FFL and the owner of the weapon.
Where do you think I got that statute from?
If A customer sends back his gun to us, if it is beyond repair, we can send him a wole new gun and do not need to do anymore paperwork than the log out to him and off it goes to his house Via UPS.
I think we are in agreement on some points, and there might be confusion in what I posted. I should have not said only gunsmithing. When I said gunsmithing I was lumping in modification to the original weapon (caliber conversions, trigger jobs, etc). or even replacement of the firearm if it is damaged beyond repair. So I agree with all your points in this post. I should have been more clear. My bad.
What I am referring to is a situation like the OP posted. An FFL can not receive in a firearm from a non-licensed individual for the purpose of transferring, consignment, or re-sale, and then transfer it back to that customer without a 4473 because the dealer no longer wants it or the customer changed his mind. In these scenarios and like the one the OP posted, the gun was not received for replacement or gunsmithing - so if the dealer wants to send it back it has to go to a dealer. This applies to an 07 or an 01.
Read 27 CFR 478.124(a)
12/15/2011 10:22:56 AM
Originally Posted By rcoers:
I think we are in agreement on some points, and there might be confusion in what I posted. I should have not said only gunsmithing. When I said gunsmithing I was lumping in modification to the original weapon (caliber conversions, trigger jobs, etc). or even replacement of the firearm if it is damaged beyond repair. So I agree with all your points in this post. I should have been more clear. My bad.
What I am referring to is a situation like the OP posted. An FFL can not receive in a firearm from a non-licensed individual for the purpose of transferring, consignment, or re-sale, and then transfer it back to that customer without a 4473 because the dealer no longer wants it or the customer changed his mind. In these scenarios and like the one the OP posted, the gun was not received for replacement or gunsmithing - so if the dealer wants to send it back it has to go to a dealer. This applies to an 07 or an 01.
Read 27 CFR 478.124(a)
The org owner/sender of the gun has not lost ownership of that weapon because the FFL is refusing to transfer that weapon.Originally Posted By jrzy:
I am an 07 , we can send the guy back a replacement gun with a whole new serial number and not do a 4473.
The law and statute is posted, it is correct, It was verified with the ATF today.
I'm not arguing the point anymore, there are other reasons a FFL can send back the gun to the org owner besides gunsmithing.
You ar confusing an 01 over the counter transaction with shipping back and forth between the FFL and the owner of the weapon.
Where do you think I got that statute from?
If A customer sends back his gun to us, if it is beyond repair, we can send him a wole new gun and do not need to do anymore paperwork than the log out to him and off it goes to his house Via UPS.
Originally Posted By rcoers:
That is talking about the return of a repaired firearm (or replacement). You are wrong. Joe Blow can't ship a firearm to an FFL and then have the FFL send it back to them on a whim, it has to go to a dealer or a 4473 has to be done. Only exception being gunsmithing. It has been explained to you by both myself and EOD, yet you continue to argue.
Once a gun comes into the licensed location of an FFL, it goes in his records and he can not give it to an unlicensed person without a 4473 or going to a dealer - THE ONLY EXCEPTION IS GUNSMITHING. Otherwise a pawnbroker could just pawn firearms and never run NICS checks on a person after they pay off the pawn. Same with consignments. The regulations do not allow for "returns" without paperwork. I don't get why you don't understand that.
Gunsmithing is not the only reason.That is talking about the return of a repaired firearm (or replacement). You are wrong. Joe Blow can't ship a firearm to an FFL and then have the FFL send it back to them on a whim, it has to go to a dealer or a 4473 has to be done. Only exception being gunsmithing. It has been explained to you by both myself and EOD, yet you continue to argue.
Once a gun comes into the licensed location of an FFL, it goes in his records and he can not give it to an unlicensed person without a 4473 or going to a dealer - THE ONLY EXCEPTION IS GUNSMITHING. Otherwise a pawnbroker could just pawn firearms and never run NICS checks on a person after they pay off the pawn. Same with consignments. The regulations do not allow for "returns" without paperwork. I don't get why you don't understand that.
I am an 07 , we can send the guy back a replacement gun with a whole new serial number and not do a 4473.
The law and statute is posted, it is correct, It was verified with the ATF today.
I'm not arguing the point anymore, there are other reasons a FFL can send back the gun to the org owner besides gunsmithing.
You ar confusing an 01 over the counter transaction with shipping back and forth between the FFL and the owner of the weapon.
Where do you think I got that statute from?
If A customer sends back his gun to us, if it is beyond repair, we can send him a wole new gun and do not need to do anymore paperwork than the log out to him and off it goes to his house Via UPS.
I think we are in agreement on some points, and there might be confusion in what I posted. I should have not said only gunsmithing. When I said gunsmithing I was lumping in modification to the original weapon (caliber conversions, trigger jobs, etc). or even replacement of the firearm if it is damaged beyond repair. So I agree with all your points in this post. I should have been more clear. My bad.
What I am referring to is a situation like the OP posted. An FFL can not receive in a firearm from a non-licensed individual for the purpose of transferring, consignment, or re-sale, and then transfer it back to that customer without a 4473 because the dealer no longer wants it or the customer changed his mind. In these scenarios and like the one the OP posted, the gun was not received for replacement or gunsmithing - so if the dealer wants to send it back it has to go to a dealer. This applies to an 07 or an 01.
Read 27 CFR 478.124(a)
He just does not have possession of the weapon.
It can legally be sent back to the org owner under the 922(a)(1)(A)
This has been verified by the ATF on more than one occasion.
The guy who sent the weapon has no fault in this and the ATF allows for his weapon to be returned to him.
Read this statute and tell me how it's wrong?
I don't mean to insult you and I think if you call or ask ATF Legal or the tech branch you'll find out this is correct.
shall not be held to
preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or
replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from
whom it was received
12/15/2011 11:34:45 AM
I'm saying if the gun comes into his store and the dealer logs it in his books, (not a scenario where he refuses shipment) and the original owner wants it back a 4473 must be done, or it has to go to a dealer.
Read this and tell me how you're right. This is directly from 27 CFR 478 - Commerce in Firearms and Regulations, which a dealer must follow. If you read 27 CFR 478.1, Scope of Regulations it says that 27 CFR 478 is to promulgate Title 1 of the GCA, which you are citing from. In other words, the regulations are used to explain the GCA.
And under the CFRs it reads:
Read this and tell me how you're right. This is directly from 27 CFR 478 - Commerce in Firearms and Regulations, which a dealer must follow. If you read 27 CFR 478.1, Scope of Regulations it says that 27 CFR 478 is to promulgate Title 1 of the GCA, which you are citing from. In other words, the regulations are used to explain the GCA.
And under the CFRs it reads:
478.124 - Firearms transaction record.(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473: Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom received.
12/15/2011 11:40:58 AM
Holy smokes, I think the main thing *I* have learned from this thread is that ATF regulations for FFLs and shipping are just too damn nebulous and complicated! 
12/15/2011 11:49:10 AM
Originally Posted By Dawg180:
Holy smokes, I think the main thing *I* have learned from this thread is that ATF regulations for FFLs and shipping are just too damn nebulous and complicated!
Holy smokes, I think the main thing *I* have learned from this thread is that ATF regulations for FFLs and shipping are just too damn nebulous and complicated!
They really aren't. What you probably found is that the first transfer dealer just doesn't want to accept shipments from non-FFL's. Rather than state that's his policy, he claims it's federal law and assumes most online buyers won't know any better.
12/15/2011 1:08:36 PM
Originally Posted By rcoers:
I'm saying if the gun comes into his store and the dealer logs it in his books, (not a scenario where he refuses shipment) and the original owner wants it back a 4473 must be done, or it has to go to a dealer.
Read this and tell me how you're right. This is directly from 27 CFR 478 - Commerce in Firearms and Regulations, which a dealer must follow. If you read 27 CFR 478.1, Scope of Regulations it says that 27 CFR 478 is to promulgate Title 1 of the GCA, which you are citing from. In other words, the regulations are used to explain the GCA.
And under the CFRs it reads:
No, that is wrong, the dealer 01 or 07 can return it to the org owner directly.I'm saying if the gun comes into his store and the dealer logs it in his books, (not a scenario where he refuses shipment) and the original owner wants it back a 4473 must be done, or it has to go to a dealer.
Read this and tell me how you're right. This is directly from 27 CFR 478 - Commerce in Firearms and Regulations, which a dealer must follow. If you read 27 CFR 478.1, Scope of Regulations it says that 27 CFR 478 is to promulgate Title 1 of the GCA, which you are citing from. In other words, the regulations are used to explain the GCA.
And under the CFRs it reads:
478.124 - Firearms transaction record.(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473: Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom received.
How would the org owner from out of state fill out a 4473 to get his gun back?
Answer:, he can't, that is why federal law allows for the gun to be returned to the org owner.
What part of the law I quoted don't you understand?
This is the only law the dealer needs to worry about in this scenario.
You are confusing face to face transaction in the shop with an out of state owner sending the gun to a dealer and the dealer returning that gun to the org owner.
Lets say a FFL wanted to buy a gun from a private party in another state.
The gun arrives, he logs it in from Mr Jones
He looks at it and says I don't like it, I'm sending it back to you.
He logs it out to Mr Jones and off it goes
The FFL sends it directly back to the seller.
That is a perfectly legal transaction, end of story.
And it's all in black & White right here under 922(a)(1)(A)
This is getting no where fast, slow, what ever.
I have quoted the law that allows this, I have taken the time to ask legal at ATF if this is correct.
The answer is yes, from legal, and from the expert at harrisburg Pa.
I can't do anything more to help you get this.
I'm done and it is legal for an FFL to send a gun back to the org owner, PERIOD!
