Archived Posts » 59,757,950
Stripped Lower and Rifle Lower Purchase question
10/23/2011 12:40:00 PM
I know that to buy a stripped lower you must be 21, but what about a factory complete lower, with a stock installed? Is it the same? Or would it be considered a rifle since it has had a stock attached?
Thanks guys
10/23/2011 12:54:48 PM
a stripped lower can be manufactured into a pistol, so you need to be 21, but a lower with a stock attached to it is considered a long gun or rifle which you can buy at 18. (NC LAWS)
10/23/2011 2:16:10 PM
Originally Posted By LivingStone1P24:
a stripped lower can be manufactured into a pistol, so you need to be 21, but a lower with a stock attached to it is considered a long gun or rifle which you can buy at 18. (NC LAWS)
a stripped lower can be manufactured into a pistol, so you need to be 21, but a lower with a stock attached to it is considered a long gun or rifle which you can buy at 18. (NC LAWS)
Nope.
10/23/2011 3:39:58 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Nope.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Umbrarian/BATFE/Instruction18.jpg
Originally Posted By LivingStone1P24:
a stripped lower can be manufactured into a pistol, so you need to be 21, but a lower with a stock attached to it is considered a long gun or rifle which you can buy at 18. (NC LAWS)
a stripped lower can be manufactured into a pistol, so you need to be 21, but a lower with a stock attached to it is considered a long gun or rifle which you can buy at 18. (NC LAWS)
Nope.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Umbrarian/BATFE/Instruction18.jpg
10/23/2011 3:45:43 PM
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
10/23/2011 3:46:56 PM
Originally Posted By TX_Patriot:
So then I wouldn't be able to go purchase a complete factory lower from an FFL?
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Nope.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Umbrarian/BATFE/Instruction18.jpg
Originally Posted By LivingStone1P24:
a stripped lower can be manufactured into a pistol, so you need to be 21, but a lower with a stock attached to it is considered a long gun or rifle which you can buy at 18. (NC LAWS)
a stripped lower can be manufactured into a pistol, so you need to be 21, but a lower with a stock attached to it is considered a long gun or rifle which you can buy at 18. (NC LAWS)
Nope.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Umbrarian/BATFE/Instruction18.jpg
Not if you're under 21
10/23/2011 4:12:39 PM
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Not if you're under 21
Well thats thatOriginally Posted By TX_Patriot:
So then I wouldn't be able to go purchase a complete factory lower from an FFL?
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Nope.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Umbrarian/BATFE/Instruction18.jpg
Originally Posted By LivingStone1P24:
a stripped lower can be manufactured into a pistol, so you need to be 21, but a lower with a stock attached to it is considered a long gun or rifle which you can buy at 18. (NC LAWS)
a stripped lower can be manufactured into a pistol, so you need to be 21, but a lower with a stock attached to it is considered a long gun or rifle which you can buy at 18. (NC LAWS)
Nope.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Umbrarian/BATFE/Instruction18.jpg
Not if you're under 21
Off to the EE I go to look for someone selling one in my area
10/23/2011 4:13:50 PM
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
Yeah. I had read about the different types of FFLs on here before. I was hoping the guy selling it was one, but he's only a type 01
10/23/2011 4:22:13 PM
Originally Posted By TX_Patriot:
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Not if you're under 21
Well thats thatOriginally Posted By TX_Patriot:
So then I wouldn't be able to go purchase a complete factory lower from an FFL?
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Nope.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Umbrarian/BATFE/Instruction18.jpg
Originally Posted By LivingStone1P24:
a stripped lower can be manufactured into a pistol, so you need to be 21, but a lower with a stock attached to it is considered a long gun or rifle which you can buy at 18. (NC LAWS)
a stripped lower can be manufactured into a pistol, so you need to be 21, but a lower with a stock attached to it is considered a long gun or rifle which you can buy at 18. (NC LAWS)
Nope.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Umbrarian/BATFE/Instruction18.jpg
Not if you're under 21
Off to the EE I go to look for someone selling one in my area
nevermind
10/23/2011 6:17:11 PM
Originally Posted By LivingStone1P24:
a stripped lower can be manufactured into a pistol, so you need to be 21, but a lower with a stock attached to it is considered a long gun or rifle which you can buy at 18. (NC LAWS)
a stripped lower can be manufactured into a pistol, so you need to be 21, but a lower with a stock attached to it is considered a long gun or rifle which you can buy at 18. (NC LAWS)
Federal law trumps NC law, and the feds say its not a rifle even if it has a stock attatched unless it has a bbled upper.
10/26/2011 10:52:58 PM
It has nothing to do with it being made into a pistol. Under federal law you must be 21 to purchase a gun. An exception is made if that gun is a rifle or a shotgun. Since the receiver does not fit the description of a rifle or a shotgun it does not qualify for the exception
11/6/2011 3:13:05 PM
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
11/6/2011 4:03:00 PM
Originally Posted By TX_Patriot:
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
It would be perfectly legal. However, I believe they need to pay the 11% excise tax. I'm also not sure what (if any) requirements they have for marking.
11/6/2011 4:08:55 PM
Originally Posted By TX_Patriot:
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
If it was me I would tell you to bring in your own upper.
11/6/2011 4:28:06 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
If it was me I would tell you to bring in your own upper.
Originally Posted By TX_Patriot:
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
If it was me I would tell you to bring in your own upper.
thats what I was thinking about doing. I may send them an email and see if they'd be willing to do it.
11/6/2011 11:07:49 PM
I could be wrong, but I don't think attaching your own upper changes anything. The dealer is selling the lower. If he pretended that he was buying the upper and attafching it so that he was selling a rifle, he's got to pay the excise tax, etc. And, if he just attaches it to get around the receiver rules, excise tax still.
11/7/2011 11:06:30 AM
An 07 can attach the upper to the lower receiver and sell it as a rifle. No FAET is due if he makes less than 50 firearms per year. Since we're almost at the end of the year he should know if he'll hit the limit or not.
11/7/2011 1:25:01 PM
Originally Posted By dbailey223:
I could be wrong, but I don't think attaching your own upper changes anything. The dealer is selling the lower. If he pretended that he was buying the upper and attafching it so that he was selling a rifle, he's got to pay the excise tax, etc. And, if he just attaches it to get around the receiver rules, excise tax still.
I could be wrong, but I don't think attaching your own upper changes anything. The dealer is selling the lower. If he pretended that he was buying the upper and attafching it so that he was selling a rifle, he's got to pay the excise tax, etc. And, if he just attaches it to get around the receiver rules, excise tax still.
Doesn't matter what he sells, it is what he transfers.
Dealers transfer all kinds of guns that they do not sell.
He has a legal obligation to correctly fill out the 4473. If there is an upper on it at time of 4473 execution making it a rifle, then he records it as rifle. The 4473 does not care if it is sold, traded, gift, or whatever.
11/7/2011 1:49:50 PM
Originally Posted By EKUJustice:
It has nothing to do with it being made into a pistol. Under federal law you must be 21 to purchase a gun. An exception is made if that gun is a rifle or a shotgun. Since the receiver does not fit the description of a rifle or a shotgun it does not qualify for the exception
It has nothing to do with it being made into a pistol. Under federal law you must be 21 to purchase a gun. An exception is made if that gun is a rifle or a shotgun. Since the receiver does not fit the description of a rifle or a shotgun it does not qualify for the exception
Not really. You need te be 21 for an FFL to sell anything but a rifle or shotgun to you, but the 18-21 purchase itself is not illegal. State laws permitting, an 18-21 year old can buy all the handguns they like, just not from FFLs.
11/7/2011 6:43:52 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
If it was me I would tell you to bring in your own upper.
Originally Posted By TX_Patriot:
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
If it was me I would tell you to bring in your own upper.
This. Then it isn't manufacturing, it's gunsmithing, and the gun doesn't have to be engraved and it doesn't count against his 50.
11/7/2011 6:51:12 PM
Originally Posted By txyaloo:
This. Then it isn't manufacturing, it's gunsmithing, and the gun doesn't have to be engraved and it doesn't count against his 50.
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
If it was me I would tell you to bring in your own upper.
Originally Posted By TX_Patriot:
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
If it was me I would tell you to bring in your own upper.
This. Then it isn't manufacturing, it's gunsmithing, and the gun doesn't have to be engraved and it doesn't count against his 50.
If he takes a receiver and adds a barreled receiver to it (now making it a rifle or pistol) that IS manufacturing, and is not gunsmithing. Whether or not the bbl action is his before building it into a working firearm is not the issue.
11/7/2011 9:56:48 PM
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
If he takes a receiver and adds a barreled receiver to it (now making it a rifle or pistol) that IS manufacturing, and is not gunsmithing. Whether or not the bbl action is his before building it into a working firearm is not the issue.
Originally Posted By txyaloo:
This. Then it isn't manufacturing, it's gunsmithing, and the gun doesn't have to be engraved and it doesn't count against his 50.
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
If it was me I would tell you to bring in your own upper.
Originally Posted By TX_Patriot:
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
If it was me I would tell you to bring in your own upper.
This. Then it isn't manufacturing, it's gunsmithing, and the gun doesn't have to be engraved and it doesn't count against his 50.
If he takes a receiver and adds a barreled receiver to it (now making it a rifle or pistol) that IS manufacturing, and is not gunsmithing. Whether or not the bbl action is his before building it into a working firearm is not the issue.
BATFE has ruled assembling a firearm from customer parts is gunsmithing, assembling a firearm from parts inventory is manufacturing.
Besides, in my scenario I would have the customer slap the upper on, thus the FFL did nothing and could not have done gunsmthing or manufacturing.
11/7/2011 10:06:22 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
BATFE has ruled assembling a firearm from customer parts is gunsmithing, assembling a firearm from parts inventory is manufacturing.
Besides, in my scenario I would have the customer slap the upper on, thus the FFL did nothing and could not have done gunsmthing or manufacturing.
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
If he takes a receiver and adds a barreled receiver to it (now making it a rifle or pistol) that IS manufacturing, and is not gunsmithing. Whether or not the bbl action is his before building it into a working firearm is not the issue.
Originally Posted By txyaloo:
This. Then it isn't manufacturing, it's gunsmithing, and the gun doesn't have to be engraved and it doesn't count against his 50.
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
If it was me I would tell you to bring in your own upper.
Originally Posted By TX_Patriot:
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
If it was me I would tell you to bring in your own upper.
This. Then it isn't manufacturing, it's gunsmithing, and the gun doesn't have to be engraved and it doesn't count against his 50.
If he takes a receiver and adds a barreled receiver to it (now making it a rifle or pistol) that IS manufacturing, and is not gunsmithing. Whether or not the bbl action is his before building it into a working firearm is not the issue.
BATFE has ruled assembling a firearm from customer parts is gunsmithing, assembling a firearm from parts inventory is manufacturing.
Besides, in my scenario I would have the customer slap the upper on, thus the FFL did nothing and could not have done gunsmthing or manufacturing.
Interesting. Didn't realize there was such a fine line.
11/8/2011 12:01:23 AM
Fine lines to me mean stay away––not worth it
11/8/2011 12:36:58 AM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
BATFE has ruled assembling a firearm from customer parts is gunsmithing, assembling a firearm from parts inventory is manufacturing.
Besides, in my scenario I would have the customer slap the upper on, thus the FFL did nothing and could not have done gunsmthing or manufacturing.
BATFE has ruled assembling a firearm from customer parts is gunsmithing, assembling a firearm from parts inventory is manufacturing.
Besides, in my scenario I would have the customer slap the upper on, thus the FFL did nothing and could not have done gunsmthing or manufacturing.
It does beg the question of how a customer can "assemble" a rifle out of an FFL's receiver he couldn't lawfully take possession of in the first place, and his own upper he brought in.
You try to draw a distinction between customer parts and inventory parts, yet the lower can't leave inventory in this situation as a lower, in order for the customer to "assemble it". Under the ATF doctrine that a complete firearm in knockdown condition is a complete firearm, the FFL assembled it, when he put his lower in the hands of the customer to assemble, regardless of who actually did the assembly.
I agree it's a gray area - but not one I'd personally be willing to explore. If any 18-21y.o. want lowers, they can go buy them from non-FFLs where the transaction is perfectly legal. I'll sell them complete rifles or complete shotguns, and welcome their business for handguns and other when they turn 21. Might even then buy them an adult beverage of their choice as a business entertainment expense.
11/8/2011 9:06:06 AM
OP should just ask a family member for a stripped lower as a Thanksgiving gift
11/8/2011 9:32:28 AM
Originally Posted By Circuits:
It does beg the question of how a customer can "assemble" a rifle out of an FFL's receiver he couldn't lawfully take possession of in the first place, and his own upper he brought in.
It does beg the question of how a customer can "assemble" a rifle out of an FFL's receiver he couldn't lawfully take possession of in the first place, and his own upper he brought in.
Originally Posted By Circuits:
You try to draw a distinction between customer parts and inventory parts, yet the lower can't leave inventory in this situation as a lower, in order for the customer to "assemble it". Under the ATF doctrine that a complete firearm in knockdown condition is a complete firearm, the FFL assembled it, when he put his lower in the hands of the customer to assemble, regardless of who actually did the assembly.
You try to draw a distinction between customer parts and inventory parts, yet the lower can't leave inventory in this situation as a lower, in order for the customer to "assemble it". Under the ATF doctrine that a complete firearm in knockdown condition is a complete firearm, the FFL assembled it, when he put his lower in the hands of the customer to assemble, regardless of who actually did the assembly.
ATF drew that distinction, not me.
In this scenario we are talking about a lower the customer bought elsewhere and is transferring through a local FFL, not a lower the FFL bought and is selling to the customer. He can do as he wishes to his gun. Supposed it was a Glock 22 the customer bought elsewhere and the customer and FFL went out back to test fire it. Customer decided to remove 40S&W BBL and install a 357Sig BBL and leaves it on. No problem. It is the customers gun. The gun now xfers as 357 Sig, not 40 S&W. Same scenario if it is an SBR and customer changes BBL length before forms are submitted. As long as FFL properly records facts on F4/4473, all is good.
11/8/2011 2:26:50 PM
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Interesting. Didn't realize there was such a fine line.
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
BATFE has ruled assembling a firearm from customer parts is gunsmithing, assembling a firearm from parts inventory is manufacturing.
Besides, in my scenario I would have the customer slap the upper on, thus the FFL did nothing and could not have done gunsmthing or manufacturing.
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
If he takes a receiver and adds a barreled receiver to it (now making it a rifle or pistol) that IS manufacturing, and is not gunsmithing. Whether or not the bbl action is his before building it into a working firearm is not the issue.
Originally Posted By txyaloo:
This. Then it isn't manufacturing, it's gunsmithing, and the gun doesn't have to be engraved and it doesn't count against his 50.
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
If it was me I would tell you to bring in your own upper.
Originally Posted By TX_Patriot:
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
If it was me I would tell you to bring in your own upper.
This. Then it isn't manufacturing, it's gunsmithing, and the gun doesn't have to be engraved and it doesn't count against his 50.
If he takes a receiver and adds a barreled receiver to it (now making it a rifle or pistol) that IS manufacturing, and is not gunsmithing. Whether or not the bbl action is his before building it into a working firearm is not the issue.
BATFE has ruled assembling a firearm from customer parts is gunsmithing, assembling a firearm from parts inventory is manufacturing.
Besides, in my scenario I would have the customer slap the upper on, thus the FFL did nothing and could not have done gunsmthing or manufacturing.
Interesting. Didn't realize there was such a fine line.
Probably should give advice to the licensed manufacturers on here when you aren't familiar with ATF's rulings. That's how bad advice that becomes internet rumors get started.
11/8/2011 2:28:37 PM
Originally Posted By Circuits:
It does beg the question of how a customer can "assemble" a rifle out of an FFL's receiver he couldn't lawfully take possession of in the first place, and his own upper he brought in.
You try to draw a distinction between customer parts and inventory parts, yet the lower can't leave inventory in this situation as a lower, in order for the customer to "assemble it". Under the ATF doctrine that a complete firearm in knockdown condition is a complete firearm, the FFL assembled it, when he put his lower in the hands of the customer to assemble, regardless of who actually did the assembly.
I agree it's a gray area - but not one I'd personally be willing to explore. If any 18-21y.o. want lowers, they can go buy them from non-FFLs where the transaction is perfectly legal. I'll sell them complete rifles or complete shotguns, and welcome their business for handguns and other when they turn 21. Might even then buy them an adult beverage of their choice as a business entertainment expense.
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
BATFE has ruled assembling a firearm from customer parts is gunsmithing, assembling a firearm from parts inventory is manufacturing.
Besides, in my scenario I would have the customer slap the upper on, thus the FFL did nothing and could not have done gunsmthing or manufacturing.
BATFE has ruled assembling a firearm from customer parts is gunsmithing, assembling a firearm from parts inventory is manufacturing.
Besides, in my scenario I would have the customer slap the upper on, thus the FFL did nothing and could not have done gunsmthing or manufacturing.
It does beg the question of how a customer can "assemble" a rifle out of an FFL's receiver he couldn't lawfully take possession of in the first place, and his own upper he brought in.
You try to draw a distinction between customer parts and inventory parts, yet the lower can't leave inventory in this situation as a lower, in order for the customer to "assemble it". Under the ATF doctrine that a complete firearm in knockdown condition is a complete firearm, the FFL assembled it, when he put his lower in the hands of the customer to assemble, regardless of who actually did the assembly.
I agree it's a gray area - but not one I'd personally be willing to explore. If any 18-21y.o. want lowers, they can go buy them from non-FFLs where the transaction is perfectly legal. I'll sell them complete rifles or complete shotguns, and welcome their business for handguns and other when they turn 21. Might even then buy them an adult beverage of their choice as a business entertainment expense.
I wouldn't do the transfer if the person were under 21 even if they were providing their own upper. If they're over 21, and want to avoid the excise tax, more power to them. Transfer the upper, log it back in as gunsmithing, and slap the upper on it.
11/8/2011 2:45:56 PM
Originally Posted By txyaloo:
Probably should give advice to the licensed manufacturers on here when you aren't familiar with ATF's rulings. That's how bad advice that becomes internet rumors get started.
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Interesting. Didn't realize there was such a fine line.
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
BATFE has ruled assembling a firearm from customer parts is gunsmithing, assembling a firearm from parts inventory is manufacturing.
Besides, in my scenario I would have the customer slap the upper on, thus the FFL did nothing and could not have done gunsmthing or manufacturing.
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
If he takes a receiver and adds a barreled receiver to it (now making it a rifle or pistol) that IS manufacturing, and is not gunsmithing. Whether or not the bbl action is his before building it into a working firearm is not the issue.
Originally Posted By txyaloo:
This. Then it isn't manufacturing, it's gunsmithing, and the gun doesn't have to be engraved and it doesn't count against his 50.
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
If it was me I would tell you to bring in your own upper.
Originally Posted By TX_Patriot:
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
If it doesn't have BOTH a stock AND a bbled action, it's not a long gun, and therefore is under the same restrictions as stripped lower.
In fact, you could buy a complete lower, pull the stock off and build it into a pistol.
Oh, and before you ask, no, the dealer can't put a rifle upper on it to make it a long gun, unless they have a manufacturing license.
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread, but if my FFL is a type 07, would I be able to get it shipped to them and have them attach the upper to the lower? Or would that be a sketchy thing to ask them to do?
If it was me I would tell you to bring in your own upper.
This. Then it isn't manufacturing, it's gunsmithing, and the gun doesn't have to be engraved and it doesn't count against his 50.
If he takes a receiver and adds a barreled receiver to it (now making it a rifle or pistol) that IS manufacturing, and is not gunsmithing. Whether or not the bbl action is his before building it into a working firearm is not the issue.
BATFE has ruled assembling a firearm from customer parts is gunsmithing, assembling a firearm from parts inventory is manufacturing.
Besides, in my scenario I would have the customer slap the upper on, thus the FFL did nothing and could not have done gunsmthing or manufacturing.
Interesting. Didn't realize there was such a fine line.
Probably should give advice to the licensed manufacturers on here when you aren't familiar with ATF's rulings. That's how bad advice that becomes internet rumors get started.
Up until recently I worked for a type 10 FFL/02 SOT and have gone through seminars on this type of info. Didn't really deal much w/ the general public, but kept up on the regs to the best of my ability.
Some of the regs are a bit confusing even if you do know what you're talking about.
(IE: you need a manufacturing license to build up a bare receiver, unless the buyer already owns the parts to be built.) However, now the discussion has become "does the buyer getting the "gunsmithed" gun need to own the receiver before it leaves the definition of "manufacturing" and becomes "gunsmithing"'. If that's the case, then the argument becomes moot because someone under 21 can't buy the receiver that will later be given to the gunsmith to be built up anyways and they need a manufacturer to build the gun.
Those are the fine lines I'm referring to, and thus I've stayed out of the discussion since that point in the discussion.
11/8/2011 5:11:00 PM
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
However, now the discussion has become "does the buyer getting the "gunsmithed" gun need to own the receiver before it leaves the definition of "manufacturing" and becomes "gunsmithing"'. If that's the case, then the argument becomes moot because someone under 21 can't buy the receiver that will later be given to the gunsmith to be built up anyways and they need a manufacturer to build the gun.
Those are the fine lines I'm referring to, and thus I've stayed out of the discussion since that point in the discussion.
However, now the discussion has become "does the buyer getting the "gunsmithed" gun need to own the receiver before it leaves the definition of "manufacturing" and becomes "gunsmithing"'. If that's the case, then the argument becomes moot because someone under 21 can't buy the receiver that will later be given to the gunsmith to be built up anyways and they need a manufacturer to build the gun.
Those are the fine lines I'm referring to, and thus I've stayed out of the discussion since that point in the discussion.
Actually a 18-20 year old buyer can purchase a receiver or handgun, just not from an FFL.
11/8/2011 5:15:26 PM
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Actually a 18-20 year old buyer can purchase a receiver or handgun, just not from an FFL.
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
However, now the discussion has become "does the buyer getting the "gunsmithed" gun need to own the receiver before it leaves the definition of "manufacturing" and becomes "gunsmithing"'. If that's the case, then the argument becomes moot because someone under 21 can't buy the receiver that will later be given to the gunsmith to be built up anyways and they need a manufacturer to build the gun.
Those are the fine lines I'm referring to, and thus I've stayed out of the discussion since that point in the discussion.
However, now the discussion has become "does the buyer getting the "gunsmithed" gun need to own the receiver before it leaves the definition of "manufacturing" and becomes "gunsmithing"'. If that's the case, then the argument becomes moot because someone under 21 can't buy the receiver that will later be given to the gunsmith to be built up anyways and they need a manufacturer to build the gun.
Those are the fine lines I'm referring to, and thus I've stayed out of the discussion since that point in the discussion.
Actually a 18-20 year old buyer can purchase a receiver or handgun, just not from an FFL.
I know that. My first rifle was a DPMS receiver bought F2F off this board.
But the scenario above I was talking about a <21yo buying a receiver from an FFL and having them build up that receiver.
