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 .223 reloading issue with cases will not eject
Husky79  [Team Member]
10/1/2012 10:05:57 AM EST
I've loaded several hundreds of them and they have been fine, but now they are starting to have 1 out of 20 not ejecting after firing. bolt will not eject it out after trying it again, requiring me to put a rod in the barrel to punch the case out. I checked the stuck brass in the headspace nogo gauge, they are sticking out above the no go level by maybe like 1/8 inch.

I don't check every single case in the nogo gauge before putting in powder and seating the bullets. I only check it like every 10 rounds. Is my full length size die getting worn out or something?

what can I check to ensure this will not happen again? Everything looks fine to me, die is clean, cases are trimmed to length. I am just stumbled there with what else to do.


EDIT*** for those who reads this but does not read all other posts down below, this is for a AR (Bushmaster Patrolman's Carbine) Please read down to see more details I posted about my setup. Thanks
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Henny  [Team Member]
10/1/2012 10:28:01 AM EST
Sounds like it's time to start trimming your cases! 1/8 of an inch above the gauge is quite a bit.
CCW  [Team Member]
10/1/2012 10:30:49 AM EST
Not sure about the statement "no-go" gage. I am thinking you are using a Wilson Gage or equivalent, which I always called a "Go-gage" from "If it goes in all the way it is good." If it is sticking out then your headspace and/or your body diameter of the case is too large. Try screwing down the die in the frame another 1/8 turn and see if that free's up the case (makes shoulder-to-headface smaller and/or body diameter smaller). If that does not work then try an SB full length sizer die. Those are not that expensive ($19??) and might solve the problem.

Another thing to look at (only if you are using the seater roll crimp) is to make sure you are not belling out the shoulder to body area on the case. This is very subtle, but can cause stuck cases, and will show up on the Wilson gage like you described.

Finally, if you have recycled those cases through sizing/firing many times, the brass will cold work and become harder (more brittle) higher yield stress and fail to take the form due to spring back. Of course, with this condition comes neck splitting. Check to see if there are any necks splitting at or near the same frequency of FTE's. If so, then probably should dump the whole batch and start a new batch.
Wingman26  [Team Member]
10/1/2012 11:08:58 AM EST
You have to check every single case, every single time its fired, that isn't an option! Don't reload a case that isn't within spec for length! Everyone wants their loads to be reliable, and they won't be if you skip essential steps in the process.
Husky79  [Team Member]
10/1/2012 12:43:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By CCW:
Not sure about the statement "no-go" gage. I am thinking you are using a Wilson Gage or equivalent, which I always called a "Go-gage" from "If it goes in all the way it is good." If it is sticking out then your headspace and/or your body diameter of the case is too large. Try screwing down the die in the frame another 1/8 turn and see if that free's up the case (makes shoulder-to-headface smaller and/or body diameter smaller). If that does not work then try an SB full length sizer die. Those are not that expensive ($19??) and might solve the problem.

Another thing to look at (only if you are using the seater roll crimp) is to make sure you are not belling out the shoulder to body area on the case. This is very subtle, but can cause stuck cases, and will show up on the Wilson gage like you described.

Finally, if you have recycled those cases through sizing/firing many times, the brass will cold work and become harder (more brittle) higher yield stress and fail to take the form due to spring back. Of course, with this condition comes neck splitting. Check to see if there are any necks splitting at or near the same frequency of FTE's. If so, then probably should dump the whole batch and start a new batch.


Yes wilson go gage, the fired cases that cycled will go in and just stick out slightly above the no go level. whereas the one that got stuck are sticking out 1/8 inch about.

My fl die is already bottomed out with the shellholder. I dont crimp at all. all cases are trimmed to length using possum hollow trimmer mounted to power drill.

Those cases have been fired maybe 3-4 times already. I toss out the ones that are splitted at neck, and won't fit in the shell holder.

I will have to check every single one in the go gage, order 1k more from brassmanbrass and start all over again.
steve4102  [Member]
10/1/2012 1:47:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By Husky79:
I've loaded several hundreds of them and they have been fine, but now they are starting to have 1 out of 20 not ejecting after firing. bolt will not eject it out after trying it again, requiring me to put a rod in the barrel to punch the case out. I checked the stuck brass in the headspace nogo gauge, they are sticking out above the no go level by maybe like 1/8 inch.

I don't check every single case in the nogo gauge before putting in powder and seating the bullets. I only check it like every 10 rounds. Is my full length size die getting worn out or something?

what can I check to ensure this will not happen again? Everything looks fine to me, die is clean, cases are trimmed to length. I am just stumbled there with what else to do.


I am looking at this a little differently than the others.

If the round chambers and fires, it's is not a sizing issue. If it were a sizing issue the round would not have chambered in the first place.

. bolt will not eject it out after trying it again,


What exactly do you mean by this? Do mean the action cycles but the round stays in the chamber, then you close the action on the stuck case and it still will not come out?

What is your load?
How are you measuring/metering your powder charge?
Does the extractor damage the rim?




dryflash3  [Moderator]
10/1/2012 5:32:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By Husky79:
Originally Posted By CCW:
Not sure about the statement "no-go" gage. I am thinking you are using a Wilson Gage or equivalent, which I always called a "Go-gage" from "If it goes in all the way it is good." If it is sticking out then your headspace and/or your body diameter of the case is too large. Try screwing down the die in the frame another 1/8 turn and see if that free's up the case (makes shoulder-to-headface smaller and/or body diameter smaller). If that does not work then try an SB full length sizer die. Those are not that expensive ($19??) and might solve the problem.

Another thing to look at (only if you are using the seater roll crimp) is to make sure you are not belling out the shoulder to body area on the case. This is very subtle, but can cause stuck cases, and will show up on the Wilson gage like you described.

Finally, if you have recycled those cases through sizing/firing many times, the brass will cold work and become harder (more brittle) higher yield stress and fail to take the form due to spring back. Of course, with this condition comes neck splitting. Check to see if there are any necks splitting at or near the same frequency of FTE's. If so, then probably should dump the whole batch and start a new batch.


Yes wilson go gage, the fired cases that cycled will go in and just stick out slightly above the no go level. whereas the one that got stuck are sticking out 1/8 inch about.

My fl die is already bottomed out with the shellholder. I dont crimp at all. all cases are trimmed to length using possum hollow trimmer mounted to power drill.

Those cases have been fired maybe 3-4 times already. I toss out the ones that are splitted at neck, and won't fit in the shell holder.

I will have to check every single one in the go gage, order 1k more from brassmanbrass and start all over again.

I suggest you go up to Tutorials, top of the page, and read the excellent 4 part "reloading 223".

This is the exact same methods I use and recommend. Your tools will be different, but the steps are the same.


This is what a correctly sized case looks like in a Dillon case gauge. Wilson's work the same way.

eta, forgot to tell you what to look for. End of case below end of gauge, but above the cut.
CCW  [Team Member]
10/1/2012 5:47:56 PM EST
You said you have loaded hundreds without FTE problems before this situation. Over that time the press can loosen up, shell holders or their nest in the ram can wear, die can wear. You said you are touching the bottom of the die with the top of the shell holder. Try easing die down another 1/16 turn so there is an "over-center" toggling when the press handle goes to full down (ie. beyond just touching). Some folks operate that way all the time to get their desired shoulder-to-headface or body dia. The only warning is not to try that with a tungsten carbide insert in the die opening.

In my situation, the turret on the press loosened over the years and was rocking on the spindle. I have to shim the backstay now to prevent that which is a nuisance, but the spindle bolt is frozen in the press frame so I cannot get it out or tighten it.

Also, Aero-E has suggested before that the expander ball on the sizer stem may drag on the neck on the way back out to the extent that the shoulder is elongated out of size. This can cause a bad fit in the chamber.
steve4102  [Member]
10/1/2012 5:52:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By CCW:
You said you have loaded hundreds without FTE problems before this situation. Over that time the press can loosen up, shell holders or their nest in the ram can wear, die can wear. You said you are touching the bottom of the die with the top of the shell holder. Try easing die down another 1/16 turn so there is an "over-center" toggling when the press handle goes to full down (ie. beyond just touching). Some folks operate that way all the time to get their desired shoulder-to-headface or body dia. The only warning is not to try that with a tungsten carbide insert in the die opening.

In my situation, the turret on the press loosened over the years and was rocking on the spindle. I have to shim the backstay now to prevent that which is a nuisance, but the spindle bolt is frozen in the press frame so I cannot get it out or tighten it.

Also, Aero-E has suggested before that the expander ball on the sizer stem may drag on the neck on the way back out to the extent that the shoulder is elongated out of size. This can cause a bad fit in the chamber.


I still don't see how this pertains to the OP's situation?

His rounds chamber and fire, the rifle will not eject the spent case. What does this have to do with an improperly sized case??

Husky79  [Team Member]
10/1/2012 6:42:34 PM EST
I apolgize about the confusion, I will put in more details.

According to my load records, the last batch, I full size lengthed with Lee die, and loaded 100 rounds of 55gr hornady fmj behind 23.5gr H335 with CCI 400 at 2.333" overall length, cases trimmed to approx 1.743" every 10 cases were checked for trim length to ensure trimmer is working properly.

What happens most time when a case gets stuck in chamber, when fired, bolt cycles, picks up a loaded round and gets that jammed in between bolt and stuck case in chamber. I drop mag and remove that jammed round, slam bolt back in and try to extract that stuck case. End up having to rod punch it out. Sometimes it will extract and eject after i close bolt the 2nd time.

Extractor does leave mark on the stuck cases.

I use the same single stage Lee press to load .308, .45acp, .30-06, and .223 so that press has been through a lot in the last 3 years. I just checked it and there is no slop, still sturdy. I checked a case in the shell holder, there is a space between bottom of case and shell holder which measures .012"

CCW  [Team Member]
10/1/2012 6:46:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By steve4102:
Originally Posted By CCW:
You said you have loaded hundreds without FTE problems before this situation. Over that time the press can loosen up, shell holders or their nest in the ram can wear, die can wear. You said you are touching the bottom of the die with the top of the shell holder. Try easing die down another 1/16 turn so there is an "over-center" toggling when the press handle goes to full down (ie. beyond just touching). Some folks operate that way all the time to get their desired shoulder-to-headface or body dia. The only warning is not to try that with a tungsten carbide insert in the die opening.

In my situation, the turret on the press loosened over the years and was rocking on the spindle. I have to shim the backstay now to prevent that which is a nuisance, but the spindle bolt is frozen in the press frame so I cannot get it out or tighten it.

Also, Aero-E has suggested before that the expander ball on the sizer stem may drag on the neck on the way back out to the extent that the shoulder is elongated out of size. This can cause a bad fit in the chamber.


I still don't see how this pertains to the OP's situation?

His rounds chamber and fire, the rifle will not eject the spent case. What does this have to do with an improperly sized case??



You can force the case into the chamber and lock the bolt so that the brass is in compression. After peak firing pressure, and everything settles back down it is still in compression but so tight that the friction between the brass and the chamber will not allow the extractor to withdraw the case. His Wilson gage is telling him the case is too big (somewhere).

The other situation that you are describing is when you overcharge enough to expand the chamber and brass at peak pressure, so that when everything settles the brass is again in compression gripped by the chamber, and the friction between the brass and chamber will not permit the extractor to withdraw the case.

The Wilson gage is telling him the case is too large. Something probably has changed in his sizing operation or brass to cause that to just show up after 100s of successful forming, at a FTE rate of about 1:20.
Ronnie_B  [Member]
10/1/2012 7:08:14 PM EST
It sounds like the brass is getting stuck and the extractor is unable to remove it, right?

I would check all loaded ammo in a case gauge before firing it. If they don't check out in the case gauge, you have a setup problem.

If they pass, I would then check them in the rifle's chamber to see if they drop in freely, in and back out, with the bolt/carrier removed. If the fit OK in the gauge, but are tight in the chamber, you have a tight chamber and need a small-base die. An Arfcommer once had an AR-10 that had difficulty removing his unfired reloads from his gun, and a small-base die fixed the problem.
steve4102  [Member]
10/2/2012 3:39:54 AM EST
According to my load records, the last batch, I full size lengthed with Lee die, and loaded 100 rounds of 55gr hornady fmj behind 23.5gr H335 with CCI 400 at 2.333" overall length, cases trimmed to approx 1.743" every 10 cases were checked for trim length to ensure trimmer is working properly.


Is this a bolt action or an AR?

If an AR that OAL is to long to cycle through the mag.

If a bolt gun you should be able to feel the resistance when closing the bolt if the case was undersized.

Have you check that OAL against the free bore? How far off the lands are you.

Motor1  [Member]
10/2/2012 3:56:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By steve4102:
Originally Posted By CCW:
You said you have loaded hundreds without FTE problems before this situation. Over that time the press can loosen up, shell holders or their nest in the ram can wear, die can wear. You said you are touching the bottom of the die with the top of the shell holder. Try easing die down another 1/16 turn so there is an "over-center" toggling when the press handle goes to full down (ie. beyond just touching). Some folks operate that way all the time to get their desired shoulder-to-headface or body via. The only warning is not to try that with a tungsten carbide insert in the die opening.

In my situation, the turret on the press loosened over the years and was rocking on the spindle. I have to shim the backstay now to prevent that which is a nuisance, but the spindle bolt is frozen in the press frame so I cannot get it out or tighten it.

Also, Aero-E has suggested before that the expander ball on the sizer stem may drag on the neck on the way back out to the extent that the shoulder is elongated out of size. This can cause a bad fit in the chamber.


I still don't see how this pertains to the OP's situation?

His rounds chamber and fire, the rifle will not eject the spent case. What does this have to do with an improperly sized case??



I'm with steve on this one.
I would NOT expect a "FIRED CASE" to fit into a gauge. I would also not expect a fired case to freely chamber and extract in a semi auto rifle.

The OP is having EXTRACTION problems. This sounds like a gun problem. Not a ammo problem.

OP. Inspect your extractor for damage. It may even be just crudded up. Check your chamber. Make sure it is clean and not scratched. If possible try your ammo in a different rifle. I bet it will run fine. Unless it has a problem too.
Henny  [Team Member]
10/2/2012 4:38:35 AM EST
I would think if the fired cases are sticking out of the gauge 1/8" after firing, the case was too long and needed trimming before reloading. Once the case is sized it will be even longer! I don't know if it's possible, but I've never myself, observed a case lengthen .125 in one firing, especially in 223.
CCW  [Team Member]
10/2/2012 6:56:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By Henny:
I would think if the fired cases are sticking out of the gauge 1/8" after firing, the case was too long and needed trimming before reloading. Once the case is sized it will be even longer! I don't know if it's possible, but I've never myself, observed a case lengthen .125 in one firing, especially in 223.


I agree with what you say. But, the OP stated that he was beating it out of the chamber with a rod. That could stretch the case more than what one would normally see.

Anyway, it looks like the OP has plenty of tests, and options to explore now. The rest is up to him.
Sinister  [Member]
10/2/2012 7:26:12 AM EST
One of two things.

A too-long case will squeeze the bullets at the throat leade, boosting your pressures and throwing the extraction-ejection cycle off.

Second, are all cases fired through this rifle/carbine exclusively? If not, have you tried a small base sizing die?
Husky79  [Team Member]
10/2/2012 7:40:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By steve4102:
According to my load records, the last batch, I full size lengthed with Lee die, and loaded 100 rounds of 55gr hornady fmj behind 23.5gr H335 with CCI 400 at 2.333" overall length, cases trimmed to approx 1.743" every 10 cases were checked for trim length to ensure trimmer is working properly.


Is this a bolt action or an AR?

If an AR that OAL is to long to cycle through the mag.

If a bolt gun you should be able to feel the resistance when closing the bolt if the case was undersized.

Have you check that OAL against the free bore? How far off the lands are you.



Oops typo , just checked the data and checked a few loaded rounds, data says 2.233" and 5 random rounds showed max of 2.236 with min 2.232" this is for a Bushmaster Patrolman's Carbine AR.

I did a drop in chamber test couple months ago, thats how I set the measurements for it, it is much under sized from the drop in measurement. But still longer than factory rounds that i tested with.

Originally Posted By Henny:
I would think if the fired cases are sticking out of the gauge 1/8" after firing, the case was too long and needed trimming before reloading. Once the case is sized it will be even longer! I don't know if it's possible, but I've never myself, observed a case lengthen .125 in one firing, especially in 223.


Sorry when I meant by that is the headspace, the base of the case sticks out about 1/8" after firing. I never did a actual measurement, just visual guess. I will go ahead and check it out with a depth gauge, see what the actual measurement is.

I am going to order a small base die, I did some searching on the web, i see a lot of people recommending SB die for AR platform.


EDIT** I went and checked with depth gauge, the base of case is .030" sticking out not 1/8" my eyes are bad i guess lol
We-rBorg  [Member]
10/2/2012 9:20:13 AM EST
I don't think the case go gage is made to check fired brass, it does expand after all
Husky79  [Team Member]
10/2/2012 9:28:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By We-rBorg:
I don't think the case go gage is made to check fired brass, it does expand after all


Yes i know that, but I compare it with the ones that cycled with no problem to the ones that got stuck, the ones that get stuck sticks out of the gage alot more than the ones that dont.


EDIT** the ones that extract and ejects properly are .010"-.017" sticking out of the gage. whereas the stuck cases are between .027"-.030"

EDIT2*** nevermind about that, after fiddling around with it, I realized that the damage from the extractor on the base rim is stopping it from going down further, so that renders it inaccurate to measure.
Husky79  [Team Member]
10/2/2012 9:38:55 AM EST
I am looking at Cabelas online since i have a 30 dollar gift card, I see there are 2 different SB die set for .223, one is AR Series which is $42.49, and another one which is Small base rifle set for .223, $38.24. Should I go with the AR series one?
steve4102  [Member]
10/2/2012 12:07:12 PM EST
You can force the case into the chamber and lock the bolt so that the brass is in compression.


The OP said nothing about forcing the round into the chamber. It chambered with a normal cycling of the action.

The action of an AR does not have enough power to chamber and fire a round that is oversized enough that it cannot be extracted.

This has nothing to do with an improperly sized case. If the round was that far out of spec it would not have fully chambered with a simple cycling of the action and would not have been allowed to fire.

SB dies will not fix this problem.
Motor1  [Member]
10/2/2012 12:21:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By steve4102:
You can force the case into the chamber and lock the bolt so that the brass is in compression.


The OP said nothing about forcing the round into the chamber. It chambered with a normal cycling of the action.

The action of an AR does not have enough power to chamber and fire a round that is oversized enough that it cannot be extracted.

This has nothing to do with an improperly sized case. If the round was that far out of spec it would not have fully chambered with a simple cycling of the action and would not have been allowed to fire.

SB dies will not fix this problem.


Again,
I totally agree with steve.
If the ammo is chambering and firing without any assist (as in hitting the forward assist) there is nothing wrong with the ammo.

""SB dies will not fix this problem.""

Sinister  [Member]
10/2/2012 12:34:45 PM EST
Go with the small base sizing die. You should already have a bullet seater.

Again, do you shoot reloads from brass fired only in this weapon's chamber? A drop-in case gage is only going to tell you if the shoulder has been pushed back far enough, and typically if your cases need to be trimmed. Use your calipers and check your case diameter above the extractor groove. Is it bigger/fatter than spec? If so you risk a slam-fire, or as you're experiencing failure to extract.

If your case is significantly fatter than .3759 inches where indicated (.200 inches up from the case head) you want a small base die.

23.5 of H335 behind a 55 Hornady seems on the light side.



Those who recommend an AR shooter NOT to use a small base die "Because it'll work-harden the brass" must be using just a few cases like benchresters who hoard their precious few. It's a gas-operated military-style autoloader –– by design it's going to abuse cases.
steve4102  [Member]
10/2/2012 12:48:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sinister:
Go with the small base sizing die. You should already have a bullet seater.

Again, do you shoot reloads from brass fired only in this weapon's chamber? A drop-in case gage is only going to tell you if the shoulder has been pushed back far enough, and typically if your cases need to be trimmed. Use your calipers and check your case diameter above the extractor groove. Is it bigger/fatter than spec? If so you risk a slam-fire, or as you're experiencing failure to extract.

If your case is significantly fatter than .3759 inches where indicated (.200 inches up from the case head) you want a small base die.

23.5 of H335 behind a 55 Hornady seems on the light side.

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/07/dg5s02-1.jpg

Those who recommend an AR shooter NOT to use a small base die "Because it'll work-harden the brass" must be using just a few cases like benchresters who hoard their precious few. It's a gas-operated military-style autoloader –– by design it's going to abuse cases.


Again, he is not having a chambering problem All his rounds chamber and fire just fine. He is have an extraction problem after the rounds has been fired.

Sinister  [Member]
10/2/2012 12:59:00 PM EST
Which tells us nothing since we don't know origin of the cases nor whether he's firing from a rifle or carbine and his particular chambers. The incidence of stoppages are only 1 out of 20 but will surely increase with more firings and reloads.

A drop gage is a general guide for the shoulder datum line from the case head and to the case mouth. If it wasn't cut with the same reamer as his chamber it won't tell you if the case has been sized enough.

The tutorials (from a quick look) do NOT mention anything about the case dimension differences between cases fired from a MILSPEC 5.56 chamber, full-length sized, then trying to chamber and fire in a commercial SAAMI chamber.
steve4102  [Member]
10/2/2012 2:29:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sinister:
Which tells us nothing since we don't know origin of the cases nor whether he's firing from a rifle or carbine and his particular chambers. The incidence of stoppages are only 1 out of 20 but will surely increase with more firings and reloads.

A drop gage is a general guide for the shoulder datum line from the case head and to the case mouth. If it wasn't cut with the same reamer as his chamber it won't tell you if the case has been sized enough.

The tutorials (from a quick look) do NOT mention anything about the case dimension differences between cases fired from a MILSPEC 5.56 chamber, full-length sized, then trying to chamber and fire in a commercial SAAMI chamber.


All of which is irrelevant to the OP.
It would not matter if the chamber was 5.56, 223, 308, 7.62 x 39, 30-06 or whatever. The case was sized enough for the completed round to chamber and fire. Case dimensions vs resized case are irrelevant as the round fit the chamber, If it fits and fires it the correct size. If anything it could be to small for the chamber, but now way it could be to large for the chamber.. It fit and it fired, sizing it down more with a SB die isn't going to change anything.

There was no "stoppage", there was a failure to eject a fired round.

Again, if it chambered and fired it is not a sizing issue.


Husky79  [Team Member]
10/2/2012 4:13:55 PM EST
I looked at that blueprint that Sinister posted, I measured most of the dimensions on there, everything passes except for the .3759" at the .200 B location (or is that .2008?) That measures at .3770". But if I move back the location to .150, it measures .3735" (my digi caliper only does .0005" increments. ) So at the .200" location it is bulged. The fired cases that extracted no problem are at or under .3759"

My loaded rounds show .3745" while a factory PMC round shows .3735"
ReefRaider  [Team Member]
10/2/2012 4:14:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By steve4102:
You can force the case into the chamber and lock the bolt so that the brass is in compression.


The OP said nothing about forcing the round into the chamber. It chambered with a normal cycling of the action.

The action of an AR does not have enough power to chamber and fire a round that is oversized enough that it cannot be extracted.

This has nothing to do with an improperly sized case. If the round was that far out of spec it would not have fully chambered with a simple cycling of the action and would not have been allowed to fire.

SB dies will not fix this problem.


Again,
I totally agree with steve.
If the ammo is chambering and firing without any assist (as in hitting the forward assist) there is nothing wrong with the ammo.

""SB dies will not fix this problem.""



Having processed over 550K of LC brass without the use of SB dies. I'll have to agree with these gentlemen.

Sinister  [Member]
10/2/2012 4:17:20 PM EST
You guys win. Carry on.

That measures at .3770".


Which is bigger than the SAAMI chamber dimension of .3769.
ReefRaider  [Team Member]
10/2/2012 4:51:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By Husky79:
I looked at that blueprint that Sinister posted, I measured most of the dimensions on there, everything passes except for the .3759" at the .200 B location (or is that .2008?) That measures at .3770". But if I move back the location to .150, it measures .3735" (my digi caliper only does .0005" increments. ) So at the .200" location it is bulged. The fired cases that extracted no problem are at or under .3759"

My loaded rounds show .3745" while a factory PMC round shows .3735"


It's 200B I don't see that being out of line as the chamber there should be .3769.. Have you resized one of the stuck cases to see if it will chamber again? Have you shot any of this ammo in another carbine to see how it functions ? If I was you I would up grade the extractor to a BCM kit ( O ring and insert )and see if that cured it. It sure won't hurt anything !!

Husky79  [Team Member]
10/2/2012 4:59:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By ReefRaider:
Originally Posted By Husky79:
I looked at that blueprint that Sinister posted, I measured most of the dimensions on there, everything passes except for the .3759" at the .200 B location (or is that .2008?) That measures at .3770". But if I move back the location to .150, it measures .3735" (my digi caliper only does .0005" increments. ) So at the .200" location it is bulged. The fired cases that extracted no problem are at or under .3759"

My loaded rounds show .3745" while a factory PMC round shows .3735"


It's 200B I don't see that being out of line as the chamber there should be .3769.. Have you resized one of the stuck cases to see if it will chamber again? Have you shot any of this ammo in another carbine to see how it functions ? If I was you I would up grade the extractor to a BCM kit ( O ring and insert )and see if that cured it. It sure won't hurt anything !!



No i have not tried it in any other AR, my friends that who owns AR around here either are too busy, or just lazy to go out to shoot.

I've been thinking about new extractor could help, but after reading online i see people who have similar issue I am having cured it with a SB sizing die. I'm not sure which direction to go first, a new SB die or a extractor. I am going to resize the cases that got stuck and see what it measures out to and what happens.
steve4102  [Member]
10/2/2012 5:00:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sinister:
You guys win. Carry on.

That measures at .3770".


Which is bigger than the SAAMI chamber dimension of .3769.


One Ten Thousands of an inch? Not going to affect shit. Most handloaders don't have tools to measure than small.

Don't give up, run a test for yourself.
Set up your sizing die so you have to force the chamber closed. Something that the OP did not have to do, but do it anyway.
Now fire the round and see if it ejects all by itself without the need for a cleaning rod down the bore.

Report back if you will, thanks.

steve4102  [Member]
10/2/2012 5:05:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By Husky79:
Originally Posted By ReefRaider:
Originally Posted By Husky79:
I looked at that blueprint that Sinister posted, I measured most of the dimensions on there, everything passes except for the .3759" at the .200 B location (or is that .2008?) That measures at .3770". But if I move back the location to .150, it measures .3735" (my digi caliper only does .0005" increments. ) So at the .200" location it is bulged. The fired cases that extracted no problem are at or under .3759"

My loaded rounds show .3745" while a factory PMC round shows .3735"


It's 200B I don't see that being out of line as the chamber there should be .3769.. Have you resized one of the stuck cases to see if it will chamber again? Have you shot any of this ammo in another carbine to see how it functions ? If I was you I would up grade the extractor to a BCM kit ( O ring and insert )and see if that cured it. It sure won't hurt anything !!



No i have not tried it in any other AR, my friends that who owns AR around here either are too busy, or just lazy to go out to shoot.

I've been thinking about new extractor could help, but after reading online i see people who have similar issue I am having cured it with a SB sizing die. I'm not sure which direction to go first, a new SB die or a extractor. I am going to resize the cases that got stuck and see what it measures out to and what happens.

Got any links to this? I would be interested in reading how these people solve and extraction issue of a Fired Round with a SB die.

Thanks

CCW  [Team Member]
10/2/2012 10:44:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By steve4102:
Originally Posted By Sinister:
You guys win. Carry on.

That measures at .3770".


Which is bigger than the SAAMI chamber dimension of .3769.


One Ten Thousands of an inch? Not going to affect shit. Most handloaders don't have tools to measure than small.

Don't give up, run a test for yourself.
Set up your sizing die so you have to force the chamber closed. Something that the OP did not have to do, but do it anyway.
Now fire the round and see if it ejects all by itself without the need for a cleaning rod down the bore.

Report back if you will, thanks.



Roarks 6th Ed Table 32 Case 1c says .0001 compression (interference fit) of brass to chamber across the web (0.065 min tk.) would generate 52.6 lbs force fit, add more for a rough chamber. I used 0.5 coef fric clean smooth brass on steel, Modulus = 16e6 psi, ASTM B36, full hard temper, poissons ratio = 0.33. I don't see how you can say it is "Not going to affect shit."
steve4102  [Member]
10/3/2012 3:09:42 AM EST
Originally Posted By CCW:
Originally Posted By steve4102:
Originally Posted By Sinister:
You guys win. Carry on.

That measures at .3770".


Which is bigger than the SAAMI chamber dimension of .3769.


One Ten Thousands of an inch? Not going to affect shit. Most handloaders don't have tools to measure than small.

Don't give up, run a test for yourself.
Set up your sizing die so you have to force the chamber closed. Something that the OP did not have to do, but do it anyway.
Now fire the round and see if it ejects all by itself without the need for a cleaning rod down the bore.

Report back if you will, thanks.



Roarks 6th Ed Table 32 Case 1c says .0001 compression (interference fit) of brass to chamber across the web (0.065 min tk.) would generate 52.6 lbs force fit, add more for a rough chamber. I used 0.5 coef fric clean smooth brass on steel, Modulus = 16e6 psi, ASTM B36, full hard temper, poissons ratio = 0.33. I don't see how you can say it is "Not going to affect shit."


52lbs of force to close the chamber! The OP did not have any issues CLOSING the chamber, he had ejection problems. The round chambered with ease, no extra 52lbs of force needed.

Motor1  [Member]
10/3/2012 3:16:09 AM EST
As a career machinist who has also been a quality control tech I can attest that anyone who tells you they can measure to even .0005" with calipers is only fooling themselves. I can hand even the best digital caliper to 5 different people and get 5 different measurements.

Any measuring tool that is dependent on the users "touch" is inherently inaccurate. You need at least a micrometer with a vernier scale and a ratchet thimble to measure to within .0001" even with that you better not hold the micrometer in your hand too long or you will effect the reading just from your body heat warming and expanding the micrometer. The same goes for what you are measuring too.

It is silly to go back and forth on a forum over something that simply can not be done. In the hands of a "normal" person a caliper is +/- .002" tool at best.

You can train yourself to do better though. Use a known size object like a drill bit shank or a standard if you have one and practice. Practice measuring inside diameters too.
Sinister  [Member]
10/3/2012 5:00:19 AM EST
Re-reading the OP's description it seems his powder charge is on the light side. Data in the Sierra 50th Anniversary Edition and Lyman's 49th show a 55 will do between 2700 and 2800 out of a 20-inch barrel (Lyman's recommended start charge is 24.3 while the OP is at 23.5). This may cause weak extraction/ no ejection (empty not clearing the barrel extension to clear overboard, bolt carrier group not traveling completely to the rear before moving forward, but stripping the top round of the magazine into the blocked feed path).

Stripping the magazine and clearing the top live round while re-chambering the fired case locks it up. OP, is this correct?
CCW  [Team Member]
10/3/2012 7:44:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By steve4102:
Originally Posted By CCW:
Originally Posted By steve4102:
Originally Posted By Sinister:
You guys win. Carry on.

That measures at .3770".


Which is bigger than the SAAMI chamber dimension of .3769.


One Ten Thousands of an inch? Not going to affect shit. Most handloaders don't have tools to measure than small.

Don't give up, run a test for yourself.
Set up your sizing die so you have to force the chamber closed. Something that the OP did not have to do, but do it anyway.
Now fire the round and see if it ejects all by itself without the need for a cleaning rod down the bore.

Report back if you will, thanks.



Roarks 6th Ed Table 32 Case 1c says .0001 compression (interference fit) of brass to chamber across the web (0.065 min tk.) would generate 52.6 lbs force fit, add more for a rough chamber. I used 0.5 coef fric clean smooth brass on steel, Modulus = 16e6 psi, ASTM B36, full hard temper, poissons ratio = 0.33. I don't see how you can say it is "Not going to affect shit."


52lbs of force to close the chamber! The OP did not have any issues CLOSING the chamber, he had ejection problems. The round chambered with ease, no extra 52lbs of force needed.



Really! Take your own advice. Stick your little finger in the ejection port and up in the barrel extension and drop the bolt using the bolt release.
See how much force you get. Get back to us with the results.
CCW  [Team Member]
10/3/2012 8:03:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By Motor1:
As a career machinist who has also been a quality control tech I can attest that anyone who tells you they can measure to even .0005" with calipers is only fooling themselves. I can hand even the best digital caliper to 5 different people and get 5 different measurements.

Any measuring tool that is dependent on the users "touch" is inherently inaccurate. You need at least a micrometer with a vernier scale and a ratchet thimble to measure to within .0001" even with that you better not hold the micrometer in your hand too long or you will effect the reading just from your body heat warming and expanding the micrometer. The same goes for what you are measuring too.

It is silly to go back and forth on a forum over something that simply can not be done. In the hands of a "normal" person a caliper is +/- .002" tool at best.

You can train yourself to do better though. Use a known size object like a drill bit shank or a standard if you have one and practice. Practice measuring inside diameters too.


So you are saying that the OP may have made a .002 error in his interference measurement?

Good advice, by the way. I worked in a precision machine shop, with a metrology lab that was the best your government could buy for years. One thing that amuses me is folks trying to hold grinding tolerances on their cases at their reload bench with the crudest of tooling. But, it is so ingrained in the hobby that I find myself doing it now.

We worked on all metal parts that had to have liquid seal based on interference fit only, and the fit had to be made up remotely. So, I know a little about interference fits.

Anyway, for Husky79's benefit...back to the subject at hand.

IMO, he should crank the die on down until he gets the "toggle over" feel to make sure he is getting all of the sizing he can get out of his present die and press, while waiting on his $12.95 incl ship BCM extractor kit with the 5 turn CS spring and center stalk (don't try to install the doughnut, leave it off, according to BCMs website). Then while he has the bolt down, clean it up real good (decarbon the DI piston and cylinder, etc.). I get the feeling Husky79 is not wanting to experiment particularly with his press or rifle set up because he had not changed anything when the 1:20 FTE problem showed up.
Ar-15TechGuy  [Member]
10/3/2012 3:15:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By Motor1:
Originally Posted By steve4102:
Originally Posted By CCW:
You said you have loaded hundreds without FTE problems before this situation. Over that time the press can loosen up, shell holders or their nest in the ram can wear, die can wear. You said you are touching the bottom of the die with the top of the shell holder. Try easing die down another 1/16 turn so there is an "over-center" toggling when the press handle goes to full down (ie. beyond just touching). Some folks operate that way all the time to get their desired shoulder-to-headface or body via. The only warning is not to try that with a tungsten carbide insert in the die opening.

In my situation, the turret on the press loosened over the years and was rocking on the spindle. I have to shim the backstay now to prevent that which is a nuisance, but the spindle bolt is frozen in the press frame so I cannot get it out or tighten it.

Also, Aero-E has suggested before that the expander ball on the sizer stem may drag on the neck on the way back out to the extent that the shoulder is elongated out of size. This can cause a bad fit in the chamber.


I still don't see how this pertains to the OP's situation?

His rounds chamber and fire, the rifle will not eject the spent case. What does this have to do with an improperly sized case??



I'm with steve on this one.
I would NOT expect a "FIRED CASE" to fit into a gauge. I would also not expect a fired case to freely chamber and extract in a semi auto rifle.
The OP is having EXTRACTION problems. This sounds like a gun problem. Not a ammo problem.

OP. Inspect your extractor for damage. It may even be just crudded up. Check your chamber. Make sure it is clean and not scratched. If possible try your ammo in a different rifle. I bet it will run fine. Unless it has a problem too.


Depends on the chamber that the round was fired in.

I am reloading some 30-06 currently for my neighbor and his fired rounds fit my Dillon gage perfectly. Length / shoulder / ALL is perfectly 'in-spec' according to my dillon gage. Fired casings easily slide in and out of gage - I have NOT resided ANY yet. Just stating what they look like after being fired that one time...

Same thing 'can' apply to an AR depending on the chamber that the round was fired from. I have one AR with a tight .223 chamber that will spit out brass that gages just as nicely. I would have no issues trying to reload and shoot those same rounds out of a Colt AR chambered in 5.56.
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