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 St Mark's Powder...Data??? UPDATE!
InfiniteGrim  [Member]
5/24/2010 7:25:15 PM
It is definetly St Mark's Powder SMP-226, is this an equivolent to another powder or is there any data out there?

What would arfcom do?

Relative just dumped a shutload of reloading stuff off for me. Most of it is old except for powder and shiny dies. But he gave me a 40lb carboard bucket of powder that has" SMP226 Lot 2 UN0161" marked on it, its about half full and has a date of May 05, 2000 on it.

What is this stuff, and could i possible use it? Assuming it was stored correctly, which is had an airtight seal, could i try this stuff out?



I


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bfoosh06  [Member]
5/24/2010 8:21:34 PM
St Marks Powders ? http://www.gd-ots.com/sitepages/propulsionsolu.html#mpanch

Sulfer-free mealed powder ?....(under "sulfur free gunpowder" ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder

SMP 242 mentioned...http://ingunowners.com/forums/ammunition_and_reloading/57225-9mm_reloading_questions.html...

Still lookin'..mentioned about a sixth of the way down...http://www.hsl.gov.uk/centres-of-excellence/explosives-notified-body/ec-type-certificates-issued––-old.aspx....under "St. Marks Double Base Smokeless Powders" at least you know its DB .

Pretty sure its a St. Marks Powder, just can't quite tell which...http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/MSDS%20Files/Smokeless/Winchester/BALL%20Powder%20Propellant.pdf....apparently..SMP224 = AutoComp

InfiniteGrim  [Member]
5/24/2010 8:33:25 PM
There is a lot of .308 bullets which leads me to believe its for rifles, there is also .270 supplies. Looking at the powder is looks just like rifle powder, not pistol.

Apparently "UN0161" is the same as "Explosive 1.3c" for shipping
Friiguy  [Team Member]
5/24/2010 8:45:09 PM

Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim:
There is a lot of .308 bullets which leads me to believe its for rifles, there is also .270 supplies. Looking at the powder is looks just like rifle powder, not pistol.

Apparently "UN0161" is the same as "Explosive 1.3c" for shipping

You can tell the difference visually?
InfiniteGrim  [Member]
5/24/2010 8:50:53 PM
Originally Posted By Friiguy:

Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim:
There is a lot of .308 bullets which leads me to believe its for rifles, there is also .270 supplies. Looking at the powder is looks just like rifle powder, not pistol.

Apparently "UN0161" is the same as "Explosive 1.3c" for shipping

You can tell the difference visually?


IT just looks like it compared to the rifle and pistol powders i have seen, and from the other things i was given, he didnt reload pistol ammunition.
chwi548  [Member]
5/24/2010 8:52:29 PM
Handgun powders aren't extruded generally.... Depends on if it's a flake, ball or extruded, but it shouldn't be hard to tell.
InfiniteGrim  [Member]
5/25/2010 4:20:09 PM
Originally Posted By bfoosh06:
St Marks Powders ? http://www.gd-ots.com/sitepages/propulsionsolu.html#mpanch



Thats definetly them

I am an idiot and didnt notice the giant St Mark's Powder on the side. I tried to contact them but i need to called between 7-3:30PM Eastern which i dont get out until 4pm!

Looking online they say they make commerical powder but i cannot find any references to it. Now They makes a shitload of military products too.

It would be nice if this stuff ends up being for .308 or 5.56 since they supposedly make a lot of 5.56 powder for the government.

pc299  [Team Member]
5/25/2010 5:40:37 PM
Call them?
http://www.generaldynamics.com/overview/combat/ordnance/st_marks_powder.htm
InfiniteGrim  [Member]
5/25/2010 5:48:11 PM


^^ I did, and they close when iim still in class.
bfoosh06  [Member]
5/25/2010 8:03:29 PM
Try e-mailing them , and if you could ask if they have a cross reference chart. I looked for some kind of chart and all I found was a few mentions of SMP powders...but nothing from the company its self. If they do give you one, could you post it so we could have it for reference.

And BTW nice score on the powder and stuff !
InfiniteGrim  [Member]
5/25/2010 10:26:25 PM
Originally Posted By bfoosh06:
Try e-mailing them , and if you could ask if they have a cross reference chart. I looked for some kind of chart and all I found was a few mentions of SMP powders...but nothing from the company its self. If they do give you one, could you post it so we could have it for reference.

And BTW nice score on the powder and stuff !


So far i have found this comparing some of their powders vs military powders.
Poodleshooter  [Member]
5/26/2010 3:11:33 PM
Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim:

I am an idiot and didnt notice the giant St Mark's Powder on the side. I tried to contact them but i need to called between 7-3:30PM Eastern which i dont get out until 4pm!

Looking online they say they make commerical powder but i cannot find any references to it. Now They makes a shitload of military products too.




St. Marks,FL aka "Primex" makes almost all of the domestic ball powders that we commonly buy under the Hodgdon/Winchester labels.
Most of our powder comes from a very limited number of producers: Primex (ball powders under Hodgdon and Winchester lines,as well as a lot of the military pulldown ball powders), ADI in Australia (most of Hodgdon's extreme line), Expro in Canada (makes IMR for Hodgdon now that they own them), ATK in Radford,VA (all Alliant "R" powders and their flake handgun/shotshell powders) are a few off the top of my head. The Accurate and Western powders are imported from Czech,Chinese,South African and other international powder manufacturers. I'm not sure who exactly makes them these days. It probably even varies from year to year.


tbonifie  [Team Member]
5/26/2010 5:04:59 PM

Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim:
It is definetly St Mark's Powder SMP-226, is this an equivolent to another powder or is there any data out there?


I wonder if there is a way for a layman to test the burn rate of one powder against others in any reasonably accurate way?

If so, you could simply check it against burn rates of other powders and find something close to help you figure out a starting load.

Of course, that's assuming you can't find data anywhere. I guess I like to tinker...
InfiniteGrim  [Member]
5/29/2010 12:19:28 PM
bump for weekend crew!
InfiniteGrim  [Member]
6/14/2010 11:27:46 AM
Just got off the phone with a guy there, apparently its for pistols such as .380, .40 S&W, and 9mm. According to him, each batch is made to different specs, so right now he's trying to find the order it came from.
river_rat  [Member]
6/14/2010 11:36:25 AM
Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim:
Just got off the phone with a guy there, apparently its for pistols such as .308, .40 S&W, and 9mm. According to him, each batch is made to different specs, so right now he's trying to find the order it came from.


I think you meant .380 not .308.

So if this container is half full and you can get data lined up for it then you will be set for some time.
InfiniteGrim  [Member]
6/14/2010 12:03:12 PM
Originally Posted By river_rat:
Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim:
Just got off the phone with a guy there, apparently its for pistols such as .308, .40 S&W, and 9mm. According to him, each batch is made to different specs, so right now he's trying to find the order it came from.


I think you meant .380 not .308.

So if this container is half full and you can get data lined up for it then you will be set for some time.


Yeah, i meant .380.

I'm surprised its pistol powder, who the hell buys 40# of pistol powder at one time? The better question is, how did my relative shoot 20# worth?

Now the question is, whats the shelf life of powder?
YZ250Rider  [Member]
6/14/2010 3:41:04 PM
There's plenty of guys on here shooting very old powder.... Just gotta make sure it doesn't smell nasty, and I've heard something about pouring some into a white container and looking for red residue as an indicator of bad powder....

oh and.... In before the pics of the antique gun powder some of these guys are using!
InfiniteGrim  [Member]
6/14/2010 4:09:35 PM
And the path goes cold....

St Mark's is unwilling to help me as they dont want to be liable, since they dont know how the powder has been stored. SO basically i have 20 pounds of powder, and nothing to do with it!
esquared  [Member]
6/14/2010 7:41:27 PM
Can you put a spoonful of the powder on a sheet of white paper and photograph it? I would not give up hope yet and keep looking to commercial reloaders in your area as someone probably ordered it for your friend. Also call Eric Lutfy at thunderbird cartridge company in Laveen Arizona at 1 800 535-2666 and ask him as he is very big in the powder business and may have data.
InfiniteGrim  [Member]
6/14/2010 9:07:26 PM
Originally Posted By esquared:
Can you put a spoonful of the powder on a sheet of white paper and photograph it? I would not give up hope yet and keep looking to commercial reloaders in your area as someone probably ordered it for your friend. Also call Eric Lutfy at thunderbird cartridge company in Laveen Arizona at 1 800 535-2666 and ask him as he is very big in the powder business and may have data.


Thanks,

here are pictures, I know the lighting sucks!



river_rat  [Member]
6/15/2010 2:39:03 AM
There is not a thing wrong with that powder. Start hitting the various reloading forums on the net. Someone has to have a clue on loading this stuff. I would have a good chrono when you start to get an idea of the pressure curve.
InfiniteGrim  [Member]
6/15/2010 3:47:38 PM
Originally Posted By river_rat:
There is not a thing wrong with that powder. Start hitting the various reloading forums on the net. Someone has to have a clue on loading this stuff. I would have a good chrono when you start to get an idea of the pressure curve.


Any forums suggestions?

I got bored, these videos are the same volume, not weight.

Bullseye
SMP 226
H335
mecoastie  [Member]
6/18/2010 2:50:19 PM
Can you ask the relative what they used it for and if they have any data?
InfiniteGrim  [Member]
6/18/2010 4:41:33 PM
Originally Posted By mecoastie:
Can you ask the relative what they used it for and if they have any data?


The reason i got all of his stuff is because he died over a year ago. So no!

I've got a ron of his reloading books here, but none of them that he actually wrote loads down in. Some of these books are 50+ years old!

Honestly im amazed that he didnt blow himself up because he didnt seem to be a very organized and by the rules kind of guy, i could see him "winging" all of his loads.

This is a guy who used a dremel tool on his own tooth when it was bothering him!
Poodleshooter  [Member]
6/19/2010 12:34:26 AM
This is a longshot....try calling or emailing Hodgdon about it. They deal in St. Mark's powder,and someone there MIGHT be kind enough to explain St. Mark's nomenclature.

2nd longshot: Ask the guys at Wideners (see industry forum). They have good experience buying and reselling these various military powders. They may know.

3rd longshot: Check with big vendors not listed here
ask Tony of TNT Reloading in Easton,PA
ask the owner of Pats Reloading
Ask Jeff Bartlett gibrass.com


CAUTION- the following is all pure conjecture. Don't load based on this
I've always suspected that the numbers given for various military or civilian powder blendings have some sort of relevance to the burning speed,but I haven't been able to conclusively figure that out. A simple guess is that with the WC powders,increasing numbers means a slower burn rate: EG, WC844,WC845 and the various lots of WC846 are very close in performance to one another; WC297 is very close to Winchester 296 a relatively fast rifle/slow pistol powder; WC680 is much faster (like old accurate 1680);WC860 is slower than the WC84X powders but hard to isolate a burn rate for; WC872 is very close to the old Hodgdon H870,the new US 869 and the old Accurate 8700 powder.

CAUTION- the following is all pure conjecture I THINK the SMP nomenclature may be a generic for St.Mark's,using numbers similar to the WC number system or something like the Accurate Powders system, based on some of what I've seen on Pat's Reloading page,with "SMP 844, SMP 846 powders referenced). If so,I'd bet that this powder burns between Accurate 2230-C data powder and Accurate's 2460. That would make it a great .223 powder if true,but I sure wouldn't act on it without the comments of someone far wiser than me.



InfiniteGrim  [Member]
6/19/2010 1:16:23 AM
Originally Posted By Poodleshooter:
This is a longshot....try calling or emailing Hodgdon about it. They deal in St. Mark's powder,and someone there MIGHT be kind enough to explain St. Mark's nomenclature.

2nd longshot: Ask the guys at Wideners (see industry forum). They have good experience buying and reselling these various military powders. They may know.

3rd longshot: Check with big vendors not listed here
ask Tony of TNT Reloading in Easton,PA
ask the owner of Pats Reloading
Ask Jeff Bartlett gibrass.com


CAUTION- the following is all pure conjecture. Don't load based on this
I've always suspected that the numbers given for various military or civilian powder blendings have some sort of relevance to the burning speed,but I haven't been able to conclusively figure that out. A simple guess is that with the WC powders,increasing numbers means a slower burn rate: EG, WC844,WC845 and the various lots of WC846 are very close in performance to one another; WC297 is very close to Winchester 296 a relatively fast rifle/slow pistol powder; WC680 is much faster (like old accurate 1680);WC860 is slower than the WC84X powders but hard to isolate a burn rate for; WC872 is very close to the old Hodgdon H870,the new US 869 and the old Accurate 8700 powder.

CAUTION- the following is all pure conjecture I THINK the SMP nomenclature may be a generic for St.Mark's,using numbers similar to the WC number system or something like the Accurate Powders system, based on some of what I've seen on Pat's Reloading page,with "SMP 844, SMP 846 powders referenced). If so,I'd bet that this powder burns between Accurate 2230-C data powder and Accurate's 2460. That would make it a great .223 powder if true,but I sure wouldn't act on it without the comments of someone far wiser than me.





I think i linked to it above, but one of the SMP8** powders are for .308/.223. I talked to a guy at St. Marks' and as soon as i said SMP226, he knew what i was talking about. He told me that it was a pistol powder. If you look at the three videos i made above the SMP 226 burns like bullseye, VERY FAST. Unlike the H335 which was slow.

Now he told me that each batch that is sent out has verying sepcs and he needed the name of the original purchaser to get the specs, but of all the name I gave him, non yielded results. He told me it was made in 2001, and that because of his uncertainty, and how he has no clue the condition of the powder, due to liability issues, he couldnt tell me and load data, as he said that he does have data for one load which is used to test the various powders.

I will have to try contacting these people, thanks for the response.
Ronnie_B  [Member]
6/19/2010 1:34:17 AM
That powder LOOKS like winchester 231.
Poodleshooter  [Member]
6/19/2010 2:11:14 AM
Good idea above-that's another place it could fit if names show relative burn rate hierarchies-slightly faster than W231,which would make it burn about like Bullseye, Hodgdon Clays, Alliant Red Dot, and the like.
Unfortunately that also makes it a bit riskier to use with no data. The slow rifle powders like WC872 are easy to experiment with. You can't even stuff enough into most necked down magnum cases to blow them (I use heavily compressed loads of WC872 in my 7mmRM). Fast pistol powder experimentation on the other hand,is a bit riskier.
Talk about start low and go slow!


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