AR15.Com Archives
 Winchester 748 Factory Load Duplication
Elkscent  [Member]
2/1/2010 10:35:14 PM EST
Does anyone know what the powder charge with Winchester 748 is to duplicate the factory load with a 55 gr bullet in a .223? Is there a better powder? I'm looking at using the ball powder as it flows better in a powder measure.

Thanks.
Paid Advertisement
--
RedFalconBill  [Team Member]
2/2/2010 12:41:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By Elkscent:
Does anyone know what the powder charge with Winchester 748 is to duplicate the factory load with a 55 gr bullet in a .223? Is there a better powder? I'm looking at using the ball powder as it flows better in a powder measure.

Thanks.


748 is ok, but touchy.

I would not leave a maximum load in your car during the summer, then fire it.

For better ball powders, look at H-335 and TAC.
Snake_driver  [Member]
2/2/2010 3:02:37 AM EST
I've been using 26.5 gr's of W748 in my 55 grain .223 loads for years. It will give you a round that is approx. 3,000 fps and has good accuracy. This is with once fired LC casings and a standard small rifle primer. You can go a little hotter if you want, but I don't get better accuracy with faster loads.

You can't hardly get better feeding through your powder measure than with W748. I just loaded up a bunch of rounds with some H335. It has finer grainuals than W748, but it feeds good too. H335 is supposed to shoot real well too in .223 rounds, but I haven't had a chance to test them yet.
AeroE  [Moderator]
2/2/2010 4:22:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By Elkscent:
Does anyone know what the powder charge with Winchester 748 is to duplicate the factory load with a 55 gr bullet in a .223? Is there a better powder? I'm looking at using the ball powder as it flows better in a powder measure.

Thanks.


You're chasing a ghost. To say "factory load with a 55 grain bullet in .223" has so little information it is meaningless.

First priority is a safe load. Second priority is an accurate load.

All 55 grain bullets are not created equally, and that has to be accounted for in your loading. Duplicating a typical factory load is no great goal, either, you can load much better ammunition than can be bought, or you can easily load ammunition that equals the best precision ammunition from a factory.



WholeBunches  [Member]
2/2/2010 5:51:19 AM EST
I also use 26.5gr WW748 with 55gr fmj bullets in military cases with military type primers and an oal of 2.25-2.26". I own several 5.56 rifles and uppers, and that load gives "OK" results (3" or less groups at 100yd off a rest), about what military ball ammo does, so that is the load I recommend and use. The velocity is less that what USGI ammo is suppose to give: with a 20" bbl I get 3000fps, 16" bbl I get 2900 fps, 11.5" bbl I get 2560fps. The 3" groups are with pulled military bullets and Winchester new bullets; the "or less" groups are with Hornaday new bullets. All groups are with no magnification red dot sights and 10 shot groups.

Years ago, NRA published 27.0 gr WW748 as approximating military 55gr ball ammo, but I got better accuracy with the 26.5gr load and stuck to it.
DDRanch  [Member]
2/3/2010 3:26:04 AM EST
27gr 748 & 55gr FMJBTs has been my plinking load for my ARs for several years & works really great with 55gr V-max with a AOL of 2.55.
squarles67  [Member]
2/3/2010 5:37:27 AM EST
26.5 grains 748 under 55g FMJ gave me 3077fps avg from a 20" AR and 2766fps avg from a 16" AR


OAL 2.255 with mixed brass and Winchester bullets

ETA - the 16" avg seems low to me and with a SD of 47.04 and ES of 107.5 I need to do some more testing
Elkscent  [Member]
2/3/2010 8:54:58 AM EST
HI & Thanks for the info. I load quite a bit but have not loaded for the .223 for quite a few years. I'm looking for a starting point to develop a .223 load. This will be a good one.

Regarding using H335, I was told by a local gun store here that H335 is the same powder as WW748, just repackaged. They were also telling me that H110 is the same as WW296 & HP38 is the same as WW231. I guess it's all manufactured at the same factory. There was also an article in Handloader Magazine a few months ago regarding that information.
Thanks again.
Elkscent  [Member]
2/3/2010 8:57:54 AM EST
HI. Thanks also for the info on load priority. I agree. I'm looking for a starting point to develop a load in addition to consulting a loading manual. I don't have the time I used to to spend days at the range developing a load.

Thanks again.
WholeBunches  [Member]
2/3/2010 9:33:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By squarles67:
26.5 grains 748 under 55g FMJ gave me 3077fps avg from a 20" AR and 2766fps avg from a 16" AR


OAL 2.255 with mixed brass and Winchester bullets

ETA - the 16" avg seems low to me and with a SD of 47.04 and ES of 107.5 I need to do some more testing


Yeah, each bbl can and most likely is different in regards to velocity. My 20" 3000fps is from a Model 1 upper with their chrome lined "GI" A2 contour bbl. The 16" 2900fps is through my SIG556. The 11.5" bbl is another one from Model 1 and is also chrome lined. I haven't bothered to chronograph with my other 5.56 rifles. I did find, in general, that my velocities went up or down about 1 fps per degree change in the outside temp, so I try and chronograph in 60-80 degree weather as sort of a middle ground in temp. Anyway, I wanted you to know that the 2900fps came from my SIG.
Smallmouth  [Member]
2/3/2010 11:37:43 AM EST
748 has really did well for me in several rifles with various bullet weights, whenever I load for the 223 I always start with 748.
CJ7365  [Member]
2/3/2010 3:41:42 PM EST
I know you said FMJ but here is what I use for the 55g V-max
Sorry no Chrono

rg1  [Member]
2/3/2010 3:47:31 PM EST
Winchester 748 is NOT the same as H335. Totally different with different burn rates, Reload data for both is different too. H335 is comparable to military WC 844 but again just close enough that start load data for H335 and WC 844 are about the same.
Snake_driver  [Member]
2/4/2010 3:42:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By rg1:
Winchester 748 is NOT the same as H335. Totally different with different burn rates, Reload data for both is different too. H335 is comparable to military WC 844 but again just close enough that start load data for H335 and WC 844 are about the same.


I completely agree with this statement. W748 and H335 look different an perform different. When I read this, I went to the several loading manuals that I have and it's clear that the loading data is all different between the two powders. H335 is obviously a faster burning powder that develops a lot of pressure really fast. Thus, it requires less powder in the load than a W748 load. If you were to use W748 loading data with H335 you would be making dangerously overloaded rounds.

I will agree that H110 is the same as W296 and that HP-38 is the same as W231. I also agree that H335 is nearly the equivalent of WC844, but NOT W748.

squarles67  [Member]
2/4/2010 5:23:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By WholeBunches:
Originally Posted By squarles67:
26.5 grains 748 under 55g FMJ gave me 3077fps avg from a 20" AR and 2766fps avg from a 16" AR


OAL 2.255 with mixed brass and Winchester bullets

ETA - the 16" avg seems low to me and with a SD of 47.04 and ES of 107.5 I need to do some more testing


Yeah, each bbl can and most likely is different in regards to velocity. My 20" 3000fps is from a Model 1 upper with their chrome lined "GI" A2 contour bbl. The 16" 2900fps is through my SIG556. The 11.5" bbl is another one from Model 1 and is also chrome lined. I haven't bothered to chronograph with my other 5.56 rifles. I did find, in general, that my velocities went up or down about 1 fps per degree change in the outside temp, so I try and chronograph in 60-80 degree weather as sort of a middle ground in temp. Anyway, I wanted you to know that the 2900fps came from my SIG.


Your difference of 100 fps is where it should be between 20" and 16", my difference is too much. My load with 26g 748 and 62g FMJ came out better at 3017 fps for 20" and 2897 for 16" for a diff of just over 100

FriscoPete  [Member]
2/4/2010 8:29:01 AM EST
...H335 is the same powder as WW748, just repackaged. They were also telling me that H110 is the same as WW296 & HP38 is the same as WW231. I guess it's all manufactured at the same factory. There was also an article in Handloader Magazine a few months ago regarding that information.

The article in Handloader did NOT state that H-335 is the same powder as W-748. The rest is true, but that statement is WRONG. Even though newly-made H-335 is from the same St. Marks facility as W-748, there are some differences that make it a separate animal.

You ARE talking about duplicating Winchester .223 factory ammo? Not M193 I hope - so forget that 3240 fps velocity stuff.

Winchester uses two different 55-gr bullets in their factory ammo, FMC and PSP which are rated at 3240 fps - a figure that is most likely highly exaggerated if you were to chronograph real world ammunition in your real world rifle.
So you could use Winchester brass, the WSR primer, and maybe find Winchester bullets seated to factory depth - then do what Winchester does: they load their factory ammo to a certain velocity/pressure spec that they arrive at by working up the current lot of powder that they got a decent deal on by the boxcar load in the lab. Powder may vary at times and adjustments are made for each type and lot so each lot of factory ammo may have a different charge weight to make the adjustment.

Therefore you could use either W-748 or H-335 (both from St. Marks) first firing your "control load" of Winchester factory 55-grain .223 ammo in your rifle over the chronograph and then carefully working up your load to duplicate the velocity of your factory Winchester "control load". All the while watching for other pressure indications that are common in handloading lore.

Or you can do what the rest of use do and realize that there is nothing magic or special about slavishly duplicating a factory load and pick the cases we like (in my case LC military), and the bullet we like from the dozens available - and one that shows superior accuracy, and the primer we like that is suitable for AR .223 loads, and the powder we like or have heard good things about, and work up a load that should do as well as the factory ammo, if not better on occasion. If not, we change a component or charge weight and go back and try it again.
Chronographing SAAMI .223 factory ammo for a "control load" is still a good idea, because if we start to exceed that velocity, then we are going to start to exceed factory pressure.
squarles67  [Member]
2/4/2010 2:57:13 PM EST
H335 and Win748 are definately NOT the same

HP38 = Win231
H110=W296
BigHunt  [Member]
2/5/2010 10:09:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By Elkscent:
HI & Thanks for the info. I load quite a bit but have not loaded for the .223 for quite a few years. I'm looking for a starting point to develop a .223 load. This will be a good one.

Regarding using H335, I was told by a local gun store here that H335 is the same powder as WW748, just repackaged. They were also telling me that H110 is the same as WW296 & HP38 is the same as WW231. I guess it's all manufactured at the same factory. There was also an article in Handloader Magazine a few months ago regarding that information.
Thanks again.


NOT TRUE! I have loaded both Win 748 and H335. They are two different animals. Much higher velocities with the H335. Win 748 works better with bullets over 65 grains. Max load of 26.5 grains of w 748 yeilded 3060 fps with a 55 grain bullet in my savage bolt gun. Same charge of H335 was 3250 fps.

Elkscent  [Member]
2/10/2010 6:08:43 AM EST
Thanks for the info.l
Paid Advertisement
--