AR15.Com Archives
 221FB vs. 222 vs. 223?
gojoe  [Member]
11/28/2009 2:57:21 PM
I'm looking at a varmint rifle to be use mostly for yotes. The CZ527s are available in 221 fireball, 222 and 223. Is there any reason to consider 221 or 222 over 223? I reload 223 and brass is cheap and the bullets are all the same so..... Why would I want a 221?
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oneshotkyle  [Team Member]
11/28/2009 3:14:00 PM
unless you are a reloader, the 223 would be your best choice. but if your buying a new gun buy a 22-250.....just my .02
NVGdude  [Member]
11/28/2009 3:28:29 PM
I can think of no reason to get a .221, as you will be limited to 55 and lighter bullets because no one makes a fast twist .221. The .223 wins out simply because brass is so plentiful, though an argument can be made for the .22-250 if you have really long shots.
300rum  [Team Member]
11/28/2009 3:47:04 PM
Ruger .204 FTW
Smallmouth  [Member]
11/28/2009 4:25:37 PM
Im a big fan of the 223 so I would go in that direction..the 222 is pretty nifty as well, I was able to find a used 527 in 222 at the first of the year and it was like I hit the lottery, I had been wanting another 222 since I sold my first one and I also had been wanting to try a 527 as well so it was a win win, cant say much about the 221 as I havent had any firsthand experience with it.
Easy_E  [Team Member]
11/28/2009 5:45:57 PM
Or you can made 221 brass from plentiful 223 brass I have a 221 fireball and absolutely love the caliber .

gojoe  [Member]
11/28/2009 6:28:24 PM
I found a used 527 in 221 so that has got me thinking. Is 221 a pain to form from 223? Any reaming involved?
CLICKBANGBANG  [Team Member]
11/28/2009 6:39:27 PM
if you already have dies, brass, powder, and bullets, and are set for .223, why go with something else that does the same thing as .223. with another cal you will have to get dies, ect. in the long run, it will be cheaper to get a new gun in .223 and stick with your same setup.
Rocklock31  [Member]
11/28/2009 7:03:47 PM
Get the .223. With it's longer cartridge length (which means increased powder capacity = more velocity), it will have increased range over the .221. Remember, the .221 is a pistol round that was designed to operate efficiently in the 10-1/2" barreled Remington XP100. The .223 was designed as a rifle round. I guess what it boils down to are the ranges you will be typically be shooting, since the CZ versions of the .221 and .223 both have a 1/12 twist, so no heavier bullet advantage for the .223. Both are very accurate.
That said, Remington is producing .221 ammo again, so no need to cut down .223 brass. They are also showing a Model 700 chambered in the .221 Fireball (with a 1/14 twist) as a special run on their website.
Easy_E  [Team Member]
11/28/2009 7:40:49 PM
Originally Posted By gojoe:
I found a used 527 in 221 so that has got me thinking. Is 221 a pain to form from 223? Any reaming involved?


You can use the FL sizing die to form then cut to length . I ended up with a form die because I form .17 fireball also. There is no reaming or neck turning on a factory barrel.
I have plenty 223's but still find a use for this little fireball. I shooting 40 grain vmax bullets over 19 grains of RL7.



FriscoPete  [Member]
11/28/2009 9:58:41 PM
...to be use mostly for yotes.

With this criteria in mind, I would definitely vote for the faster .223. Velocity is a real plus when shooting coyotes - that is why some opined calibers that are not available in the CZ 527 like .204 (my favorite pick if starting from scratch) and the classic .22-250.

If a pleasant and accurate little prairie dog or squirrel rifle with long barrel life was wanted for mid-range shooting, the .221 Fireball is a fun caliber. My brother had one once and it was nifty and mild.

Oddly enough, more coyotes have fallen to my old Rem 788 .222 with a 50-gr Speer TNT than ever have to my various .223s, so I know that the old .222 can do the job just as well as the slightly faster .223 - which basically runs a 55-gr bullet about as fast as the .222 runs a 50-gr. However, if you already have and load .223, I would just stick with that caliber unless you get a good deal on a used .222 triple deuce.
dryflash3  [Team Member]
11/28/2009 11:40:22 PM
All depends if you want to work with another caliber or not.

When I got the urge for a 22 centerfire bolt rifle, I stayed with 223.
NVGdude  [Member]
11/29/2009 3:51:37 AM
Honestly just about anything with a bit of reach will work on the yodel dogs. Heck I like to use my 30-06. I use the Speer 125 grain TNT bullets. *splat*

My main point being, what else might you like to do with this rifle?
Bowhntr6pt  [Team Member]
11/29/2009 4:41:52 AM
Originally Posted By gojoe:
I'm looking at a varmint rifle to be use mostly for yotes. The CZ527s are available in 221 fireball, 222 and 223. Is there any reason to consider 221 or 222 over 223? I reload 223 and brass is cheap and the bullets are all the same so..... Why would I want a 221?


Yes, because ".221 Fire Ball" sounds cool.... Seriously, I have a T/C Contender in .221 FB and it's a neat little round. I'd say get one just to have something different.
gojoe  [Member]
11/29/2009 9:46:20 AM
Originally Posted By dryflash3:
All depends if you want to work with another caliber or not.

When I got the urge for a 22 centerfire bolt rifle, I stayed with 223.


I don't mind working with a new caliber, that's part of the fun. In the back of my mind. I'm think that over the long term it might be best to stick with something more on the common side. .22 bullets will always be availible in the long term. So will 223/5.56 cases. The rest will be elbow grease, I like the idea of low report with the 221 FB. I'm just not sure if I want to give up the added range a 223 Rem would give?
Gee_Wizz  [Member]
11/29/2009 1:29:47 PM
I think the question is "How far do you plan to shoot?" I had a .222 rem before I got my AR's, and now the .222 doesn't get out much. The .223 easily gives an extra 50-75 yds of range and for coyotes the heavier bullets seem to anchor coyotes better at 250 yds. I also have a 220 Swift, which I use if I want to reach out and touch a coyote at long ranges. The Swift and 22-250 are great if you shoot out past 350 yds on a regular basis, but they also use a lot more powder and are hard on barrels when loaded to full power.

G
AeroE  [Moderator]
11/29/2009 2:59:43 PM
Originally Posted By dryflash3:
All depends if you want to work with another caliber or not.

When I got the urge for a 22 centerfire bolt rifle, I stayed with 223.


That's it, right there.

A .223 Rem can be loaded really close to .22-250 performance. The .221 Fireball is just cool, and there's no way I would give mine up. I have only three or four .222's, but the two early Sako Riimaki's are retired to protect their value.

It just comes down to your taste for more rifles and accoutrements, or whether it's a strictly practical decision. Overall, the .223 Remington from a 7 twist barrel is about impossible to beat for versatility. The CZ rifle has a 12 twist barrel, so the full range of bullet weights are not available.

oneshotkyle  [Team Member]
11/29/2009 10:02:28 PM
many of us with replies have multable 22 caliber centerfires. there is a niche for some of us to own all of those. i have a preference just as the rest, 223 or 22-250. there is a major difference in the two when you shoot 300 yds and beyond. 300 fps makes a big difference in bullet drop and energy retained for yotes at those ranges beyond 300yds. 220 swift will out do the 22-250 for energy out there also. thats why i ackley improved one of my 22-250's. just to gain that extra benefit. to each is own. 223 is cheaper and more readily available. 22-250 is still readily available, and 220 swift is the hardest of the three to find unless you reload. buy one of each, thats what i would do..............

gojoe  [Member]
11/30/2009 8:14:08 AM
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
Originally Posted By gojoe:
I found a used 527 in 221 so that has got me thinking. Is 221 a pain to form from 223? Any reaming involved?


You can use the FL sizing die to form then cut to length . I ended up with a form die because I form .17 fireball also. There is no reaming or neck turning on a factory barrel.
I have plenty 223's but still find a use for this little fireball. I shooting 40 grain vmax bullets over 19 grains of RL7.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/853/dsc05450.jpg
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9405/221fireball2sf3.jpg
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5022/dsc04431wv9.jpg


How much life do you get out of formed brass? Do you neck size only? What kind of results do you get from military vs. commercial brass?
joedapro  [Member]
11/30/2009 4:33:14 PM
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
Or you can made 221 brass from plentiful 223 brass I have a 221 fireball and absolutely love the caliber .

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1780/fireballql7.jpg


this. the 221 can be made to shoot like a 22 short or just short of a 223 with the lighter bullets. some say this is what killed jfk from the storm drain.
agreenar  [Team Member]
11/30/2009 6:36:22 PM
I've kicked around the idea of getting a Fireball for a while and this last weekend I ran across a CZ527 in 221 fireball with a beautiful stock so it ended up following me home. It came with dies and 200 rounds of new brass. I can't wait to start experimenting with it.
Easy_E  [Team Member]
11/30/2009 9:49:46 PM
Originally Posted By gojoe:
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
Originally Posted By gojoe:
I found a used 527 in 221 so that has got me thinking. Is 221 a pain to form from 223? Any reaming involved?


You can use the FL sizing die to form then cut to length . I ended up with a form die because I form .17 fireball also. There is no reaming or neck turning on a factory barrel.
I have plenty 223's but still find a use for this little fireball. I shooting 40 grain vmax bullets over 19 grains of RL7.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/853/dsc05450.jpg
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9405/221fireball2sf3.jpg
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5022/dsc04431wv9.jpg


How much life do you get out of formed brass? Do you neck size only? What kind of results do you get from military vs. commercial brass?


I have brass with four reloads on it with no lost cases and I full length size only . All is formed from Remington brass I've tried Winchester and lake city brass with good results. The only issue with the good brass is the neck ends up too thick. Remington brass must be thinner in the body. I now have 500 cases made up and rotate them . If they wear out in a couple of evenings I could make more.

AeroE  [Moderator]
11/30/2009 10:42:55 PM
Originally Posted By Easy_E:
Originally Posted By gojoe:
I found a used 527 in 221 so that has got me thinking. Is 221 a pain to form from 223? Any reaming involved?


You can use the FL sizing die to form then cut to length . I ended up with a form die because I form .17 fireball also. There is no reaming or neck turning on a factory barrel.
I have plenty 223's but still find a use for this little fireball. I shooting 40 grain vmax bullets over 19 grains of RL7.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/853/dsc05450.jpg
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9405/221fireball2sf3.jpg
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5022/dsc04431wv9.jpg


I just now looked at your target. I don't think your gun is going to shoot, maybe I need to shoot it a while to find out if it's broken.

22skip  [Member]
12/4/2009 12:08:46 AM
Originally Posted By agreenar:
I've kicked around the idea of getting a Fireball for a while and this last weekend I ran across a CZ527 in 221 fireball with a beautiful stock so it ended up following me home. It came with dies and 200 rounds of new brass. I can't wait to start experimenting with it.


I bought a CZ527 American in .221 FB new in 2003 and love the rifle. The wood is really nice for the grade of rifle and that single set trigger is great at the bench. I didn't have any problem finding/buying new Remington brass for it, just have had my reloading gear packed away for the last 5 years and have not loaded for this rifle yet, have only shot Remington factory ammo in it so far. Have almost got my reloading bench finished and hope to be back in business soon. Hope you like your rifle as much as I do mine.
gojoe  [Member]
12/9/2009 8:46:00 AM
I made my choice and placed my order. Merry Christmas to me from the wife. I bought a CZ-USA-527 lux in 223. After looking through the reloading manuals. It was easy to see that I could make a 223 Rem do anything. With reduced loads it was possible to duplicate even a .22 mag.
AeroE  [Moderator]
12/9/2009 1:35:12 PM
Originally Posted By gojoe:
I made my choice and placed my order. Merry Christmas to me from the wife. I bought a CZ-USA-527 lux in 223. After looking through the reloading manuals. It was easy to see that I could make a 223 Rem do anything. With reduced loads it was possible to duplicate even a .22 mag.


My present was supposed to ship yesterday. I need to ask the wife whether she has a tracking number.

gojoe  [Member]
12/9/2009 2:04:20 PM
Originally Posted By AeroE:
Originally Posted By gojoe:
I made my choice and placed my order. Merry Christmas to me from the wife. I bought a CZ-USA-527 lux in 223. After looking through the reloading manuals. It was easy to see that I could make a 223 Rem do anything. With reduced loads it was possible to duplicate even a .22 mag.


My present was supposed to ship yesterday. I need to ask the wife whether she has a tracking number.



Natchez shooters has some good deals on Leupold scope with free goods. I ordered a 2x7x33 VF-i for the CZ. It should make a nice light weight package for my pack or ATV.
orthodoxwarrior  [Member]
12/9/2009 2:31:09 PM
Get the .223 I loved the .222 when I was a kid shooting ground hogs;it is limited to light bullets and is becoming more obscure.I had a 722 and it only shot 5o grainers well.It was popular back then and was considered the most accurate gun around.The 223 can do anything and do it better than the other two can
SpacemanSpiff  [Member]
12/9/2009 3:36:24 PM
while .223 certainly can produce more energy than .222, it is no secret that .222 is inherently more accurate than .223, at least at ranges where the lighter bullets are not too affected by wind.

.222 used to be the go to caliber for 100 yd benchrest, before 6mm PPC took over.
AeroE  [Moderator]
12/9/2009 6:11:18 PM
Originally Posted By gojoe:
Originally Posted By AeroE:
Originally Posted By gojoe:
I made my choice and placed my order. Merry Christmas to me from the wife. I bought a CZ-USA-527 lux in 223. After looking through the reloading manuals. It was easy to see that I could make a 223 Rem do anything. With reduced loads it was possible to duplicate even a .22 mag.


My present was supposed to ship yesterday. I need to ask the wife whether she has a tracking number.



Natchez shooters has some good deals on Leupold scope with free goods. I ordered a 2x7x33 VF-i for the CZ. It should make a nice light weight package for my pack or ATV.


After I get the rifle, get a scope mounted, and shoot some I may post some photos, although they won't fit in this forum. I'm a little embarrassed to put any up. However it is "black", sort of, so maybe I won't get voted off the island.

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