AR15.Com Archives
 Titegroup in .223 ???
Marine-78  [Member]
1/24/2009 11:48:15 AM EST
Can anyone explain these entries in the on-line load data from Hodgdon under loads for the .223?


55 GR. HDY FMJ Hodgdon Titegroup .224" 2.200" 3.1 1064 4,000 CUP
55 GR. HDY FMJ Hodgdon Clays .224" 2.200" 3.2 1060 3,700 CUP

Click the link, select .223 Cartridge. These are the 1st two entries for 55g bullets.

Hodgdon .223 Loads
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SBR7_11  [Team Member]
1/24/2009 11:50:47 AM EST
Look at the velocity.... they is max velocity for sub-sonic if all the conditions is right,, of course you not going to cycle a gas operated rifle with that low gas pressure.
moosemcnally  [Team Member]
1/24/2009 12:26:03 PM EST
That is a subsonic load. I have been looking for one for some time now. I use 5.5 grains of Titegroup in my cowboy action 45 long colt load. That stays subsonic for sure but it is also pushing a 200 grain bullet. I'd love to know if anybody has tried this yet.You are right it is not going to cycle the gun. I have also wondered about doing the same thing with a Trail Boss.
Marine-78  [Member]
1/24/2009 12:30:26 PM EST
My guess would have been that it's intended use was for something like a T/C handgun but I'd like to know for sure.
shooter64738  [Member]
1/24/2009 1:45:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By moosemcnally:
That is a subsonic load. I have been looking for one for some time now. I use 5.5 grains of Titegroup in my cowboy action 45 long colt load. That stays subsonic for sure but it is also pushing a 200 grain bullet. I'd love to know if anybody has tried this yet.You are right it is not going to cycle the gun. I have also wondered about doing the same thing with a Trail Boss.


I've tried it. I started at 2.9 grains and worked up to 4.2. Once I hit 3.2 grains with a 55grn fmj, they were occasionaly supersonic. With a 77 grain HP I worked up to 4.2 grains and stayed sub sonic. I'm still working on making one of these cycle the action. I've started machining a new carrier that I think will work. I hear trail boss works equally well, but I haven't tried it.

These were all shot out of an ar with a 16" hbar barrel, 1:9 twist.
tru  [Member]
1/24/2009 2:05:22 PM EST
parden my noobess but what's subsonic and supersonic mean?
shooter64738  [Member]
1/24/2009 2:12:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By tru:
parden my noobess but what's subsonic and supersonic mean?


Sub-sonic is below the speed of sound.
Super-Sonic is above the speed of sound.

Speed of sound isn't constant though. It's dependant on air conditions, and elevation. But it's generally between 1000 feet per second and 1200 feet per second.
dryflash3  [Team Member]
1/24/2009 2:22:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By Marine-78:
My guess would have been that it's intended use was for something like a T/C handgun but I'd like to know for sure.


When loading for my 14", 223 Contender, I use full power 223 loads.

abpt1  [Team Member]
1/24/2009 2:27:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By tru:
parden my noobess but what's subsonic and supersonic mean?




Originally Posted By shooter64738:
Originally Posted By tru:
parden my noobess but what's subsonic and supersonic mean?


Sub-sonic is below the speed of sound.
Super-Sonic is above the speed of sound.

Speed of sound isn't constant though. It's dependant on air conditions, and elevation. But it's generally between 1000 feet per second and 1200 feet per second.



If you shoot a super sonic bullet out of a sliencer it still has a super sonic CRACK ;)
HK_Shooter_03  [Team Member]
1/26/2009 11:08:20 AM EST
I don't see a starting load listed.

If the max for Clays is 3.2 and Titegroup is 3.1 for a 55gr bullet, would it kill me to load 3.0 grains of each?
shooter64738  [Member]
1/26/2009 11:22:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
I don't see a starting load listed.

If the max for Clays is 3.2 and Titegroup is 3.1 for a 55gr bullet, would it kill me to load 3.0 grains of each?


I reduced the load by 10% (per the hodgdon instructions) when I started which gave me 2.79 grains. I set my scale on 2.8 and started.

ETA: I'm not accusing you of not knowing what you're doing so don't take this the wrong way. By 'each' I assume you don't mean mixing the powders together. For the sake of your eye sight and probably your fingers, don't mix them.
HK_Shooter_03  [Team Member]
1/26/2009 12:09:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By shooter64738:
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
I don't see a starting load listed.

If the max for Clays is 3.2 and Titegroup is 3.1 for a 55gr bullet, would it kill me to load 3.0 grains of each?


I reduced the load by 10% (per the hodgdon instructions) when I started which gave me 2.79 grains. I set my scale on 2.8 and started.

ETA: I'm not accusing you of not knowing what you're doing so don't take this the wrong way. By 'each' I assume you don't mean mixing the powders together. For the sake of your eye sight and probably your fingers, don't mix them.


No problem, in this forum - I appreciate and listen to all criticism.

I'm not mixing them, I happen to have both and I'm loading them separately to see which one is better.

If 3.0 grains is subsonic, I'll stick with that.

No reason for me to go higher or lower.
shooter64738  [Member]
1/26/2009 12:22:19 PM EST
With titegroup I got up to 3.2/3.3 before they were super sonic with the 55 grn fmj. somewhere in there they were mixed, so I went to a 62 grain bullet and added more powder. Then a 77 grain, and stopped 4.2 grains of titegroup. 77 seems to be the max bullet weight I can get to stablize in my 1:9. At 4.2 grains I still didn't see any pressure indicators on the case.
NA_Wreckdiver  [Team Member]
1/26/2009 12:31:59 PM EST
when reducing those loads to start level, be CERTAIN the bullet exits the barrel.
They are typically used in SBR's with suppressors. Trail Boss is a better choice,
it will fill the case more & thus usually give better accuracy. Be cautious using
heavier bullets... they typically need more speed to stabilize & can cause baffle
strikes.
HK_Shooter_03  [Team Member]
1/26/2009 1:30:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By NA_Wreckdiver:
when reducing those loads to start level, be CERTAIN the bullet exits the barrel.
They are typically used in SBR's with suppressors. Trail Boss is a better choice,
it will fill the case more & thus usually give better accuracy. Be cautious using
heavier bullets... they typically need more speed to stabilize & can cause baffle
strikes.


Hmm, so getting 3 grains of tite-group or clays behind a 55 grain bullet reliably out of a 20" barrel is a bad idea?

It isn't the minimum but I don't want to check my barrel after every round. (I will check it when I test the load but I don't want to check it once I load them up en mass)
NA_Wreckdiver  [Team Member]
1/26/2009 2:44:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
Originally Posted By NA_Wreckdiver:
when reducing those loads to start level, be CERTAIN the bullet exits the barrel.
They are typically used in SBR's with suppressors. Trail Boss is a better choice,
it will fill the case more & thus usually give better accuracy. Be cautious using
heavier bullets... they typically need more speed to stabilize & can cause baffle
strikes.


Hmm, so getting 3 grains of tite-group or clays behind a 55 grain bullet reliably out of a 20" barrel is a bad idea?

It isn't the minimum but I don't want to check my barrel after every round. (I will check it when I test the load but I don't want to check it once I load them up en mass)


That's all I'm saying... when you reduce to work up the load.
Keep in mind the whole reason for those loads are to stay subsonic for use with
a suppressor... so it sounds like a .22. FWIW... that is about as effective as they
are as well. Actually, less so. A .22 will cycle for repeated shots, the AR will not.
So the AR essentially becomes a bolt gun.
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