Factory Colt M16 question - AR15.Com Archive

Factory Colt M16 question

Chas8008 [Team Member]

11/21/2011 1:33:58 AM

If one was looking to put a pony to the stable, say a 9 millon ser. Colt.

What should one look at??

Well got it.

Now what did I need?

Gun food, Check

Mags, Check

KNS pins Gen one or gen 2.

KNS 3rd hole pin.

I have a spikes .22 kit I just need the anit-bounce weight?

JSG [Team Member]

11/21/2011 12:47:22 PM

Please be more specific. Do you mean what problems should one look for or what cosmetic items are more likely to indicate it is not a counterfit or how fat should your bank account be?

Chas8008 [Team Member]

11/21/2011 1:18:17 PM

I meant,

Fit with the upper and lower.
Wear on the CH, bolt, hammer, bolt face.
All holes are round ect, ect, ect

Circuits [Team Member]

11/21/2011 1:44:44 PM

You're likely going to change everything about it, except the lower itself. Holes should not be egged, and excessive exterior wear may indicate problems or poor storage and maintenance.

You should only care about uppers and internals if they're factory original (save them even if you swap out for blasting components), or unusual or rare - and those types of goodies will drive the asking price up.

tony_k [Moderator]

11/21/2011 10:10:27 PM

Boy, talk about a question right up my alley .... the 9-mil SN series are what I've been studying for two decades.

Chas, give me a call –– hey, it's a local call for you. IM me for my number. I'll talk your ears off. Or we can meet up, I'll show you my 9-mil series '16, and tell/show ya more than you would ever want or need to know.

IMHO, they are the primo M16s. But I'm not exactly objective about 'em –– they are my passion.

Chas8008 [Team Member]

11/21/2011 11:26:04 PM

IM sent

Originally Posted By tony_k:
Boy, talk about a question right up my alley .... the 9-mil SN series are what I've been studying for two decades.

Chas, give me a call –– hey, it's a local call for you. IM me for my number. I'll talk your ears off. Or we can meet up, I'll show you my 9-mil series '16, and tell/show ya more than you would ever want or need to know.

IMHO, they are the primo M16s. But I'm not exactly objective about 'em –– they are my passion.

TriggerFish [Team Member]

11/22/2011 2:51:04 PM

You are in the BEST hands with 9-mil tony_k!

drfcolt [Team Member]

11/22/2011 3:10:35 PM

S/N 95900xx ........... M16-A1/HBAR ....... HBAR upper now gone .................. Originally looked like this:

Now looks like this:

Chas8008 [Team Member]

11/22/2011 4:24:29 PM

Originally Posted By TriggerFish:
You are in the BEST hands with 9-mil tony_k!
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c314/Z06M16A1/FullAutoART.jpg

The Gapper, I love those..

Chas8008 [Team Member]

11/22/2011 4:25:47 PM

I drank the Kool-Aid and it is sweet!!

Banditman [Team Member]

11/22/2011 5:29:48 PM

Originally Posted By Chas8008:
I drank the Kool-Aid and it is sweet!!

http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac133/chas8008/coltm16.jpg

http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac133/chas8008/coltm16a.jpg

http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac133/chas8008/coltm16b.jpg

I was drooling over that one the other day, Congrats.
Five or six more years and I hope to get one.

Chas8008 [Team Member]

11/22/2011 8:18:51 PM

Originally Posted By Banditman:

I was drooling over that one the other day, Congrats.
Five or six more years and I hope to get one.

Thansk

Funny thing is the seller and I live in the same city, and used the same SOT.

ReefRaider [Team Member]

11/22/2011 8:29:27 PM

Chas8008 [Team Member]

11/26/2011 7:23:25 AM

Updated my OP.

BTW Mailed 11-23-11

Samuel_Hoggson [Member]

11/26/2011 8:26:25 AM

I'm not an anti-rotation pin kool-aid drinker. Then, I only shoot 5.56 over my lowers. I think you can at least make a case for the pins if you intend to do multi-cal with your RR. Which pins? I'm chump enough to actually call KNS and ask them for their recommendation. You should not need to go oversize with a good/excellent condition pony.

This is very important: no matter what pins you use with 9mm read up on ramped bolts. About every set of Gen 1 KNS pins that broke met their end with 9mm.

Time to purchase a Colt LPK, some extra Colt springs. Then on to uppers, mags, ammo. I also recommend an MGI rate-reducing buffer. You will also want a D or O ring if you decide to use shorty 5.56 uppers. Down the line you can add a suppressor, beltfed upper etc.

I will say that pricey "big-name" uppers - piston or otherwise - make sense for SBRs. But I can't see them as anything more than a waste of money for a FA range toy. You will fry an expensive barrel just as quickly as an inexpensive one. It's your money, though.

I mentioned you'll want to buy ammo, right?

Before I forget, congratulations! You will not be sorry.

Sam

ETA: Just noticed the pics. Nice dog. I see you have mags.........good! One more thing: JMHO, but I never, ever shoot anyone's else's reloads with the happy switch engaged. As you will not use your RR in combat, if you ever have a FTFire please stop........pull the carrier.......check bore for obstruction. Trust me on this one.

Chas8008 [Team Member]

11/26/2011 10:58:50 AM

Originally Posted By Samuel_Hoggson:
I'm not an anti-rotation pin kool-aid drinker. Then, I only shoot 5.56 over my lowers. I think you can at least make a case for the pins if you intend to do multi-cal with your RR. Which pins? I'm chump enough to actually call KNS and ask them for their recommendation. You should not need to go oversize with a good/excellent condition pony.

This is very important: no matter what pins you use with 9mm read up on ramped bolts. About every set of Gen 1 KNS pins that broke met their end with 9mm.

Yup know about the Ramping with a 9mm

Time to purchase a Colt LPK, some extra Colt springs. Then on to uppers, mags, ammo. I also recommend an MGI rate-reducing buffer. You will also want a D or O ring if you decide to use shorty 5.56 uppers. Down the line you can add a suppressor, beltfed upper etc.

I have uppers short, carbine and 20" and a can.

I need to learn more about the MGI buffer with D or O ring. How does it rate against the Vltor a5?

I will say that pricey "big-name" uppers - piston or otherwise - make sense for SBRs. But I can't see them as anything more than a waste of money for a FA range toy. You will fry an expensive barrel just as quickly as an inexpensive one. It's your money, though.

10-4

I mentioned you'll want to buy ammo, right?

see photos

Before I forget, congratulations! You will not be sorry.

Thanks, I hope I will not be sorry

Sam

ETA: Just noticed the pics. Nice dog (sometimes). I see you have mags.........good! One more thing: JMHO, but I never, ever shoot anyone's else's reloads with the happy switch engaged. As you will might not use your RR in combat, if you ever have a FTFire please stop........pull the carrier.......check bore for obstruction. Trust me on this one.

Oh yes trust me I will if there is a stoppage

thanks

Samuel_Hoggson [Member]

11/26/2011 2:32:37 PM

First, I should note that what follows concerning rings/springs/buffers is mostly moot if you just stick with the rifle buffer/stock. But most people like to play so.........

An extractor ring or X-power spring (not both, but that's another story) is the first step if you encounter dropped extraction. This occurence is a function of a relatively overgassed condition, and manifests as a "double-feed" = a live round jammed against an empty that did not clear the port. Of my 3 Colt 11.5s one really needs a ring. Step 2 is a heavier buffer.........the buffer is not step 1.

MGI developed the D-ring as a sorta product improvement over the Crane O-ring. They tested the D out to something like 60k. That's good enough for me - I use one, per above. MGI's buffer is an excellent product and, in tests I've seen, seems to give the greatest reduction in ROF. Sometimes an upper with use-enlarged port (believe me, they get large and ratty) will run faster than you'd like, or develop dropped extraction on that basis. I do not know much about the Vltor, as I've been totally satisfied with the MGI.

Heavy buffers are step 1 in dealing with bolt bounce. Do not make the mistake of assuming that any heavy buffer is GTG. There's a high-speed youtube vid somewhere that demonstrates this well.

HTH, Sam

tony_k [Moderator]

11/26/2011 4:27:55 PM

Good talkin' to ya today, Chas008. Hope to see you and the '16 at Hernando in February! (If the F4 doesn't come through in time, you can shoot mine.)

BTW, the best sources for new Colt LPKs are:

Ken Elmore at http://www.specializedarmament.com/ Ken is a Colt armorer –– in fact, he is also an instructor for the Colt factory armorer courses.

An equally good, trustworthy source is Dennis Todd in Pa. He doesn't have a web site but his email is DToddmgREMOVETHISSPAMGARD@AOL.com Dennis has forgotten more than I will ever know about Colt's; along with Ken, he is my go-to Colt guru, and has taught me much in many conversations over the past 20 years. He's also perhaps the best source out there for rare Colt factory parts and components –– he has items like NIB factory A3 flattop LMG uppers, one of the items I lust for.

You can also get most Colt LPK parts from Brownell's –– if you have a C&R FFL, you get dealer cost prices. But Brownell's supply from Colt is a bit more spotty; Dennis and Ken will almost always have what you need in stock between them, and are the sort of knowledgable, sharing-the-wisdom MG folks we all should support by sending them our biz when we can.

HTH!

ReefRaider [Team Member]

11/26/2011 6:19:08 PM

Those sure came down in price.
https://www.mgi-military.com/store/index.php?product_id=8&type=&category=

I have one in my AR10. Rides inside the Mag-Pul PRS stock. I have never used it in the M16 though.

To the OP you must have shot MW M16 with the A5. I was just shooting mine today with the LMT 10.5 suppressed upper. While it cycles higher than the 14.5. It did seem smother shooting with the A5 stock over the A1. YMMV

amphibian [Member]

11/26/2011 8:39:33 PM

I've got a large assortment of buffers including the MGI as well as the Vltor A5. I just tested the Vltor A5 last week and really like it.
I posted about it recently here:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_23/355615_cyclic_rate_reducer.html&page=2

I recently had an issue where one of my favorite barrels, 8.25" 5.45 made from a Bulgarian AK74 barrel no longer functioned. Gas port had eroded. I tried several buffers and none worked more than 2 rounds. I tried the following listed from lightest to heaviest H, Enidine, H2, H3, MGI and AAC tungsten (no longer made). Even with the heaviest buffer installed (AAC), there was enough gas to hold the bolt back if I loaded one round in the mag.

I was planning on restricting the gas at some point but figured I'd bring the 8.25" 5.45 with me when I went to do other RoF testing with the Vltor. Turns out it runs fine with the Vltor A5 just real fast. 949RPM.
Impressive considering I couldn't get it to run at all with a standard buffer tube and all the different buffers.

I got my 11.5" 5.45 w/ the Vltor A5 down to 536 RPM and it is super smooth.

I got a custom delrin plug made so that I can use any carbine buffer with the A5. I plan on testing the MGI, Enidine, H2 and H3 with various upper configurations. So I wouldn't compare the MGI 'against' the Vltor A5 when they can be used together if you have a plug/spacer made.

Like Tony K says, maybe I'll see you out at Hernando in Feb.

Chas8008 [Team Member]

11/27/2011 4:43:10 AM

Originally Posted By tony_k:
Good talkin' to ya today, Chas008. Hope to see you and the '16 at Hernando in February! (If the F4 doesn't come through in time, you can shoot mine.)

BTW, the best sources for new Colt LPKs are:

Ken Elmore at http://www.specializedarmament.com/ Ken is a Colt armorer –– in fact, he is also an instructor for the Colt factory armorer courses.

An equally good, trustworthy source is Dennis Todd in Pa. He doesn't have a web site but his email is DToddmgREMOVETHISSPAMGARD@AOL.com Dennis has forgotten more than I will ever know about Colt's; along with Ken, he is my go-to Colt guru, and has taught me much in many conversations over the past 20 years. He's also perhaps the best source out there for rare Colt factory parts and components –– he has items like NIB factory A3 flattop LMG uppers, one of the items I lust for.

You can also get most Colt LPK parts from Brownell's –– if you have a C&R FFL, you get dealer cost prices. But Brownell's supply from Colt is a bit more spotty; Dennis and Ken will almost always have what you need in stock between them, and are the sort of knowledgable, sharing-the-wisdom MG folks we all should support by sending them our biz when we can.

HTH!

Yup, thanks Tony for the call. I hope retain a lot of the conversion..

I am looking at Ken's site right now..

And yes I hope to make it to Feb 12 shoot. I do not think I have ever turned down the opportunity to shoot a FA weapon...

Chas8008 [Team Member]

11/27/2011 4:45:27 AM

Originally Posted By ReefRaider:
Those sure came down in price.
https://www.mgi-military.com/store/index.php?product_id=8&type=&category=

I have one in my AR10. Rides inside the Mag-Pul PRS stock. I have never used it in the M16 though.

To the OP you must have shot MW M16 with the A5. I was just shooting mine today with the LMT 10.5 suppressed upper. While it cycles higher than the 14.5. It did seem smother shooting with the A5 stock over the A1. YMMV

Yup, people love the A5 Vltor, I am leaning that way..

I have shot MW's16 but I could not tell you what what setup he was running at the time...

Monkey_Wrench [Team Member]

12/6/2011 8:49:06 PM

Originally Posted By Chas8008:

Yup, people love the A5 Vltor, I am leaning that way..

I have shot MW's16 but I could not tell you what what setup he was running at the time...

Which time??

The last few times it was the A5. Can't say enough about that setup.

Congrats on the purchase by the way!

ReefRaider [Team Member]

12/6/2011 9:51:55 PM

Originally Posted By amphibian:
I've got a large assortment of buffers including the MGI as well as the Vltor A5. I just tested the Vltor A5 last week and really like it.
I posted about it recently here:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_23/355615_cyclic_rate_reducer.html&page=2

I recently had an issue where one of my favorite barrels, 8.25" 5.45 made from a Bulgarian AK74 barrel no longer functioned. Gas port had eroded. I tried several buffers and none worked more than 2 rounds. I tried the following listed from lightest to heaviest H, Enidine, H2, H3, MGI and AAC tungsten (no longer made). Even with the heaviest buffer installed (AAC), there was enough gas to hold the bolt back if I loaded one round in the mag.

I was planning on restricting the gas at some point but figured I'd bring the 8.25" 5.45 with me when I went to do other RoF testing with the Vltor. Turns out it runs fine with the Vltor A5 just real fast. 949RPM.
Impressive considering I couldn't get it to run at all with a standard buffer tube and all the different buffers.

I got my 11.5" 5.45 w/ the Vltor A5 down to 536 RPM and it is super smooth.

I got a custom delrin plug made so that I can use any carbine buffer with the A5. I plan on testing the MGI, Enidine, H2 and H3 with various upper configurations. So I wouldn't compare the MGI 'against' the Vltor A5 when they can be used together if you have a plug/spacer made.

Like Tony K says, maybe I'll see you out at Hernando in Feb.

I think I'll pick up the A5 heavy buffer. While my LMT 10.5 runs great with the A5. I would like to see how much better it would be while suppressed running the A5 heavy buffer.

Monkey_Wrench [Team Member]

2/7/2012 8:35:49 PM

Originally Posted By ReefRaider:

I think I'll pick up the A5 heavy buffer. While my LMT 10.5 runs great with the A5. I would like to see how much better it would be while suppressed running the A5 heavy buffer.

Did you end up getting it?

tony_k [Moderator]

2/7/2012 9:26:40 PM

FWIW, Vltor now offers four different A5 buffers: The standard 5.3 oz that comes with the kit; two heavier buffers, 6.08 and 6.83 ounces, to slow the ROF; and a 3.80 ounce buffer for a higher rate of fire.

Chas8008 [Team Member]

2/7/2012 9:33:49 PM

still waiting,

ReefRaider [Team Member]

2/7/2012 9:59:12 PM

Originally Posted By Monkey_Wrench:

Originally Posted By ReefRaider:

I think I'll pick up the A5 heavy buffer. While my LMT 10.5 runs great with the A5. I would like to see how much better it would be while suppressed running the A5 heavy buffer.

Did you end up getting it?

Not yet. I'm tring to put together an order to help absorb the shipping. Need to sell some things off 1st.

Chas8008 [Team Member]

2/7/2012 10:09:01 PM

Originally Posted By ReefRaider:

Originally Posted By Monkey_Wrench:

Originally Posted By ReefRaider:

I think I'll pick up the A5 heavy buffer. While my LMT 10.5 runs great with the A5. I would like to see how much better it would be while suppressed running the A5 heavy buffer.

Did you end up getting it?

Not yet. I'm tring to put together an order to help absorb the shipping. Need to sell some things off 1st.

where is the cheapest place to pick up a Vltor stock anyway?

ReefRaider [Team Member]

2/8/2012 7:04:14 AM

The cheapest way is to just get the buffer tube , spring and buffer youwant. Then just put your milspec stock on it.

Chas8008 [Team Member]

2/8/2012 7:35:07 AM

Originally Posted By ReefRaider:
The cheapest way is to just get the buffer tube , spring and buffer youwant. Then just put your milspec stock on it.

Ok, Their Tube, Spring, and buffer. And my Mil stock..