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 AOW Side by Side shotgun
fritz2525  [Member]
10/1/2011 8:53:45 PM
I live in California and the only way that I can get a hold of a short barreled side by side shotgun is to have it in an AOW form. I've called and Emailed several gun smiths and have not turned up any takers. So I was wondering if anyone knows of a place that would be willing to construct a side by side shotgun from scratch. I can’t just chop a stocked side by side and register it as an AOW, it needs to be virgin receiver. Thanks for any help.
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P08  [Team Member]
10/1/2011 9:15:52 PM
The problem with what you want to do is finding a maker for the receiver willing to sell one not made as a shotgun in the first place. Remember that AOW's cannot be made from a receiver that has been previously produced as a long arm. I recall someone on Sturm trying to do what you want and came up with nothing. Good luck!
tony_k  [Moderator]
10/1/2011 10:09:34 PM
Manufacturing a one-off shotgun receiver from scratch is not easy. It's about like asking for someone to manufacture a revolver from scratch –– the up-front design, and startup manufacturing, costs are going to be well into five-six figures.

ATF will not approve a Form 6 import for shotguns without buttstocks ... exactly because they do not want them to be turned into NFA devices, against GCA '68's "no imported NFA" edict. And there are no low-end (under $5k) domestic manufacturers of SxS shotguns as potential hosts. IIRC, there are a very few super-high-end SxS manufacturers based in the U.S. (maybe two or three) who make bespoke SxS shotguns from scratch, and might be both willing and legally able to make you a host. But again, the cost for the base receiver starts in the $10k range.

Really, it's just cheaper for you to move out of Kalifornia.
Surly  [Member]
10/2/2011 9:59:58 AM
Buy a cheap assed side by side and a milling machine and make you own...it will cost you less and you then can move on to make other stuff you want and can't find.
tony_k  [Moderator]
10/2/2011 11:54:39 AM
Originally Posted By Surly:
Buy a cheap assed side by side and a milling machine and make you own...it will cost you less and you then can move on to make other stuff you want and can't find.

To make an AOW, you must start with a shotgun which has never had a shoulder stock on it. And no one makes those as side by sides.

If you mean buying a cheap side by side and a milling machine, and duplicating the action/receiver from scratch on the mill ... well, he had also better learn a lot about metalurgy, because you're talking some serious pressures here when you put it together and pull the trigger.
Cole2534  [Team Member]
10/2/2011 6:25:33 PM
Learning the milling will take much longer than the metallurgy.

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GarrettJ  [Team Member]
10/2/2011 7:29:19 PM
What about permanently installing a rifled sleeve in one of the barrels, and cutting to 12" or more? You then have a "weapon with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading..."

That configuration meets the definition of an AOW under federal law, and can even have a buttstock, but you are not required to have one. It wouldn't be a 12-gauge double, but it would be a 12 ga. x .44, (or whatever caliber you choose). And it retains the look of a 12 ga. double.
crazytuco  [Member]
10/4/2011 12:54:17 AM
Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
What about permanently installing a rifled sleeve in one of the barrels, and cutting to 12" or more? You then have a "weapon with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading..."

That configuration meets the definition of an AOW under federal law, and can even have a buttstock, but you are not required to have one. It wouldn't be a 12-gauge double, but it would be a 12 ga. x .44, (or whatever caliber you choose). And it retains the look of a 12 ga. double.


Didn't Baikal manufacture .45-70 sleeves at one point?
Surly  [Member]
10/5/2011 7:45:23 PM
Originally Posted By tony_k:If you mean buying a cheap side by side and a milling machine, and duplicating the action/receiver from scratch on the mill ... well, he had also better learn a lot about metalurgy, because you're talking some serious pressures here when you put it together and pull the trigger.


Yeah, you're right...he's probably too much of a dummy to do anything like that just like the rest of the world. God forbid someone do the impossible.

ZachH  [Team Member]
10/6/2011 4:40:40 AM
Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
What about permanently installing a rifled sleeve in one of the barrels, and cutting to 12" or more? You then have a "weapon with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading..."

That configuration meets the definition of an AOW under federal law, and can even have a buttstock, but you are not required to have one. It wouldn't be a 12-gauge double, but it would be a 12 ga. x .44, (or whatever caliber you choose). And it retains the look of a 12 ga. double.


I've often thought about doing something like this when I had the 07/02 but more along the lines of a drilling and having 2 shotgun barrels and a .22lr barrel with a sliding action tucked under the barrels somewhere .
Lokjell  [Team Member]
10/6/2011 5:06:07 AM
Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
What about permanently installing a rifled sleeve in one of the barrels, and cutting to 12" or more? You then have a "weapon with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading..."

That configuration meets the definition of an AOW under federal law, and can even have a buttstock, but you are not required to have one. It wouldn't be a 12-gauge double, but it would be a 12 ga. x .44, (or whatever caliber you choose). And it retains the look of a 12 ga. double.


So could you make one out of a Drilling? 12 gauge sxs with a 30-06 or something under it. That'd be an entertaining gun. Of course prohibitively expensive.
Xela  [Member]
10/29/2011 9:55:33 AM
There is such a thing as a pistol grip only sxs factory shotgun. I saw it for sale on gunbroker a few ears ago. It was imported, but I can't remember the brand of the shotgun. It had a whippet style pistol grip, and 18" barrels. I seriously considered buying it, but it was $500, and I could make a legitimate sbs for less with a stoeger.
P08  [Team Member]
10/29/2011 8:50:15 PM
Go find one of these, I sold this one a few years ago for a mere $3,000.
Fanner50  [Member]
10/30/2011 9:55:38 PM
Why can't you do a Form 1 and after the stamp comes back get a gunsmith (or do it yourself) to cut down the barrel to whatever length you want? I know it's two hundred compared to five, but that will work...right?
tony_k  [Moderator]
10/30/2011 10:02:41 PM
Originally Posted By Fanner50:
Why can't you do a Form 1 and after the stamp comes back get a gunsmith (or do it yourself) to cut down the barrel to whatever length you want? I know it's two hundred compared to five, but that will work...right?

Sure you can. Completely legal.

But if the host shotgun you start with has a buttstock, the end result will be an SBS, not an AOW. Same $200 making tax. But some states allow AOWs but not SBS's, and if you live on one of those states, you cannot build a SxS shorty because there are no pistol-grip-only SxS host guns. There are, as noted above, factory SxS AOWs from the 1930's, but they are rare and very expensive (think $3k). Sigh.
COLT  [Member]
11/1/2011 10:01:33 AM
Originally Posted By fritz2525:
I live in California and the only way that I can get a hold of a short barreled side by side shotgun is to have it in an AOW form. I've called and Emailed several gun smiths and have not turned up any takers. So I was wondering if anyone knows of a place that would be willing to construct a side by side shotgun from scratch. I can’t just chop a stocked side by side and register it as an AOW, it needs to be virgin receiver. Thanks for any help.


STATE NFA RESTRICTIONS

Here is my attempt to list what state allows what in terms of
NFA weapons. The "Y" indicates state law allows private
individuals to own the weapon in question. Most of the "Y" states
require the weapons be possessed in compliance with federal law to
be legal under state law. Some of the "N" states may allow only
police officers to possess them, or dealers, or neither. Basically
if the privileged class was so narrow, by statute, I said "N". In
many states the class of folks able to own NFA weapons is narrow by
practice (California), or because no law enforcement officers will
sign the certification needed for a transfer to an individual.
Some of the "N" states may also have grandfathered weapons, the "N"
applies to a current transaction. Some "N" states may also allow
unserviceable weapons. Some states may regulate one or more of
these weapons as handguns.

KEY
MG - machine gun
SI - sound suppressor (silencer)
SR - short barreled rifle
SG - short shotgun
AOW - any other weapon
LBDD - large bore destructive device
EXPDD - explosive, incendiary or poison gas destructive device


STATEMG SI SR SG AOWLBDD EXPDD Comments

AK Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
AL Y Y N N Y Y ?
AR Y Y Y Y Y Y ? (state registration of pistol cal. MG's over .30)
AZ Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
CA Y N Y Y Y Y Y (requires discretionary and rarely issued permit for mg, lbdd or expdd from state Dept. of
Justice; no AOW pen guns; C&R sg, sr only)

CO Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (requires state explosives permit for expdd)
CT Y Y Y Y Y Y ? (no select fire mg's-full auto's only, after 1993 assault weapon ban, state registration of
mg's)
DE N N Y N Y Y N (no smooth bore pistol AOW's)
FL Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
GA Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (no incendiary expdd's)
HI N N N N N N N
IA N Y Y Y Y Y Y (only si, sr, sg, lbdd and expdd designated as collector's items by the Comm'r of Public
Safety - they use the ATF C&R list)
ID Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
IL N N N N Y ? N
IN Y Y Y N Y Y N
KS N N Y N Y Y N DEWAT machine guns are OK.
KY Y Y Y Y Y Y ?
LA Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (mg's require a permit to purchase - war relics only; mg's, sr, si, sg and some expdd's
require a permit to purchase)
MA Y N Y N N Y N (license for mg's required; 1998 law bans covert firearms (AOW's), short shotguns)
MD Y Y Y Y Y Y N (mg's must be registered)
ME Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
MI Y N Y Y Y Y Y (FFL needed to own machine guns; no incendiary expdd; C&R sr, sg only)
MN Y N Y Y Y Y ? (C&R mg, sg only, registration required)
MO Y N Y Y Y N N (C&R mg, sr, sg only to non-FFL holders; FFL holders (including C&R) any mg, sr, sg)
MS Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (as of 7/1/00, silencers are legal, but must be registered with the state)
MT Y Y Y Y Y N N (state law banning silencers and requiring pistol cal. mg's over .30 be registered with state
repealed 4/23/99)
NE Y Y Y Y Y Y N
NC Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (sheriff's permit required for mg's; must be FFL holder (including C&R) for mg, si, sr, sg
lbdd and expdd, or fall into another exception, see comments below)
ND Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (fed. "licensees" required to register all NFA weapons with state when possessed for
"protection or sale")
NH Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
NJ Y N N N Y N N (mg requires discretionary and rarely issued permit from state court)
NM Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
NV Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
NY N N N N Y Y N (AOW smooth bore handguns are allowed, on a state pistol license)
OH Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
OK Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
OR Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (no incendiary expdd's)
PA Y Y Y Y Y Y N
RI N N N N Y Y ?
SC Y Y Y Y Y Y ? In 2001, S.C. law was changed to permit all Federally registered items
SD Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
TN Y Y Y Y Y Y ?
TX Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
UT Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
VA Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (state registration of all mg's)
VT Y N Y Y Y Y Y
WA N Y N N Y Y N (silencer may not be used on a gun)
WI Y Y Y Y Y Y Y (permit required for expdd, no incendiary expdd's; no pistol caliber mg's w/o permit)
WV Y Y Y Y Y Y ?
WY Y Y Y Y Y Y ?
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

A Note about NFA Weapons and California

As a general rule the definitions of NFA weapons, as regulated in
California, track exactly the federal definitions, and categories.

Cal. Penal Code Sec. 12020(a) prohibits the possession of, among
other things, AOW's (Any other Weapons) and short shotguns and
short rifles. Subsection (b) lists exemptions to the application of
(a).

Subsection (b)(7) of section 12020 exempts any "firearm or
ammunition" lawfully possessed under federal law and on the C&R
list.
Subsection (b)(8), exempts ALL AOW's except "pen guns."
Subsection b(2) is the exemption for the movie permit for short
shotguns and short rifles with the procedure for its issuance found
at section 12095.

In short, Californians can legally possess any AOW, except a pen
gun, as long as it is possessed in compliance with federal law, and
as long as it isn't classified as an assault weapon (SB 23 treats
some semiauto pistols with dual pistol grips, AOWs under federal
law, as prohibited assault weapons). Likewise they can possess any
C&R listed short rifle or short shotgun.

Short shotguns and short rifles are defined at (c)(1) and (c)(2)
respectively; the definitions are essentially the same as federal
law. HOWEVER, unlike the feds, California courts have ruled that
the length of a rifle with a folding stock is measured with the
stock folded, not extended, as the feds do. So a gun that is not
a short rifle under federal law may be one under California law.
See People v. Rooney, 17 Cal.App.4th 1207 (1 Dist. 1993).

Any firearm whose possession is otherwise prohibited by subsection
(a) is ok, under b(7), if the gun is a C&R one and lawfully
possessed under federal law. This would not provide an exemption
to the requirement for a state permit for a machine gun, as
12020(a) does not regulate mg's. That is section 12220 (ban) and
12230 et seq. (permits). Rules for DD's are at section 12301 et
seq. Silencers are regulated at section 12500 et seq. The state
Department of Justice has discretionary authority to issue permits
to possess DD's or machine guns, and does not issue them to
collector-civilians. Civilians are totally prohibited from owning
silencers.
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