C and R or reactivated transferables?
can someone school me on the difference between these two (other than the obvious one is factory original the other is converted back to original). are the reactivated ones the shooters or would you consider getting a C and R gun and using it as a shooter? are the legal status of these different? I'm talkin WWI and WWII transferables
I'm not even sure how to start answering this....
Prior to 1968, there was a class of firearms known as "DEWATS". This stood for Deactivated War Trophy. Anyone could being all sorts of old machine guns into the country, weld them up a bit, and sell them as DEWATS. There was no paperwork and you could have them delivered by mail to your door. When the GCA of 1968 was passed, all that changed. DEWATs were now treated the same as live machine guns and had to be registered in the same way. A lot of DEWATS were registered during the amnesty in 1968, but most weren't.
A REGISTERED DEWAT can be reactivated and not lose it's status as a C&R gun. An unregistered DEWAT is totally illegal and is good only as a parts set. I personally have no problem using an old MG as a shooter, but some folks don't think it's appropriate. I have two MGs from the WW I era and they both shoot just fine. I don't hammer them, but they get used.
If you take bits and pieces of destroyed receivers and assembly a whole one out of them, you have built a new gun and it's not C&R. Some M16s were made this way before 1986 and are transferrable, but anything made this way now is a post-May dealer sample and not transferrable to the ordinary folk.
Does this help?
A little clarification on reactivated C&R firearms. Back when these were being sold, some had a little deactivation done as just putting a lead pug in the chamber. Obviously, those guns would be as good as new with the application of a little heat. Others had the chamber filled with weld, the barrel welded to the receiver, and the firing pin channel in the bolt face welded up. You may find guns at either end and anywhere in the middle.
Obviously, the closer it is to original condition the better, and the more pristine that condition is the higher the price. At this point, all C&R machine guns have significant collector value. It has never stopped me from shooting one, but I would make sure that the ammo was good before taking a chance with some rare models with all-matching parts.
ah that clears up a lot of the questions I have on the subject, now how about how to spot the two? Iets say I'm in the market for mg42, and I find a private seller who says its c&r, but Im looking at it and its as non matching as it could be. not knowing where to go from here and not wanting to accuse the person of lying how would one distinguish them? or would any example of this type of gun be c&R if it was actually transferable?
thanks for the info by the way.
Your best bet would be checking out the paperwork. If the manufacturer is listed as a German firm which operated in the 1940s, it's probably a C&R. If it's an American name (Bubba's Gun Works), then it was assembled from a parts kit. You could also look over the gun and check for manufacturers markings that don't belong on an original, but that's hard because in the "old days" it was permissable to hide the markings under grip panels and in other areas that can't be seen without disassembly. The only real certain way would (I think) be a FOIA request to BATF for all the papers they have on it. The owner would have to do that, and they would be heavily redacted, but you would be able to tell when it was first registered and on what kind of form.
If it was registered to some American firm on a Form 2, then it's not an original gun. If it was registered on an amnesty form (I can't remember what number it was.) then it's an original.
Any registered DEWAT will be at least 43 years old, because the last time you could register them was 1968. That was also the last time you could import transferrable guns from overseas. Any registered DEWAT from the 1940s or 1950s would be a C&R. Anything that might have been manufactured after 1961 would not, unless it qualified as rare and unusual and you got BATFE to add it to the C&R list (if it wasn't already on it).
Non-matching parts doesn't automatically mean a new-made gun. If the receiver is still original and not cobbled together out of torched-up parts, then the whole gun retains it's originality. I have an amnesty-registered RPD that I shoot regularly, but the only original part on it is the receiver. All the other original parts have been stripped off and carefully put away to reduce wear and tear on them.
ok, so who were making these guns prior to the cutoff for registration in '86? I'm looking at a few, one of the ones I've seen for sale on the internet has:
the first word on the stamp is not done well I think its
Lauchl Ser 2 Cal 8 Mod 34
Collinsville, Ill
does anyone know anything about this company?
Is that the markings for the paperwork for the MG42 you listed two posts ago? I'd say that is a parts gun someone put together, based on the Collinsville, ILL. If it was a true bring back, it would have been "germany" as the manf.
that one is for an mg34, it was the only pic I could find of one marked that that, so its obviously not a rewatt then
Originally Posted By sharmanajusmc:
that one is for an mg34, it was the only pic I could find of one marked that that, so its obviously not a rewatt then
Ask them for a copy of the paper work for it. Have them black out the owners info. Shouldn't be any reason they won't give you that info.
Wasn't Lauchli busted in the 60s hiding a bunch of illegal machine guns or something? Too long ago since I've heard the story. I remember ut dealt with some Thompsons.
As for "matching" MG42s, good luck. Most were never matching from the start.
ok kinda off topic but another question I have, I already have a transferable m16, with this new purchase I think I'd like to go the trust route since then members of my family and my children would be able to lawfully use it. With the m16 though, if I want to put it on the trust do I need to actually transfer it to the trust just as if I had sold it to someone else?
Yup. To move the M16 to the trust its another $200 taxed transfer. The trust is a legal entity. So the gun is going from you, to a trust. $200 tax due.
would it be a form 4 like from an individual to an individual?
Yes, Form 4 from you to the trust.
A lot of folks don't understand that even though you are the person creating the trust, the trust is a separate legal entity from you, who are a human entity. So if you own an NFA item, to place it in the trust requires a transfer from you to the trust, which is the same as if you sold it to your next-door neighbor.
Actually, there was paperwork on DEWATS prior to the '68 GCA. Provost Marshal paperwork is worthless, as it was never entered into the NFRTR, most of the WWII era guns were on ATTU (pre-ATF) forms. Though there is no garantee that ATF will have any record of it whatsoever.
If you have a MG 34 that has LOX or Lauchli Ordnance experimentation, Collinsville, IL, it was done in the late 1950s by Rich Lauchli, who was at one time a legit Class 3 dealer/Class 4 then.
He used to sell DEWATs, mostly Mg34's, Maxims and Thompsons. He was busted several times from the 50's through the 1970's for various things, the most infmaous being the possession of over 1500 demilled thompson barreled receovers.
From talking with some oldtimers, when I lived in Lincolnwood IL, I met him in the mid 1970s. He used to run, well his long suffering wife, used to run the gun shows up in Crystal Lake and Rockford, IL.
He always sold gun parts until he died in the 1980's. I bought a Maxim 08 heavy SLED mount and Japanese Type 92 heavy tripod with optics. I ended up trading both to the late Bob Perry in 1978 for a couple guns he had from an old timer in the Chicagoland area (MAT49 and Chinese Type 56 AK47).
Lauchli supposedly had a legit remanufacturing operation doing dewat jobs on live guns and reactivations on dead guns, mostly dealing in heavy belt fed guns up to 50 cal. The most noteworthy assortment of his guns were sold to a Class 3 dealer in Wisconsin, when Lauchli was busted the first time inthe 50's. There were several dozen MG34's, and Vickers + Maxim guns All of these guns (approximately 17 MG's) were sold to another famous NJ Dealer, but they ended up being seized by ATTU (pre 71 ATF).
A friend locally in the Willismansburg area has a few of the Lauchli marked guns, a MG 34 Tanker model and Colt Watercooled 50 BMG. He did a FOIA request and actually had registrations going back to the Korean war era and showed the guns were dewats at one time, then reactivated as live guns during the amnesty. The only evidence of dewating was some evidence that the bolt was welded on the 50, and the mg 34 receiver was welded where it separates to change the barrel.
Not all of Lauchli's activities were illegal, but once he got busted, he obviously did not care much about the Weapons laws. If you do a thorough search of the Lauchli case law, you will discover some BATF paperwork showing actual Lauchli gun serial numbers.
Sorry if a little off topic But this thread seems a little applicable to a question i got today
I got asked today about a M2 50 cal... It seems a man who had his dad just passed away. has got a letter from the ATF in regards to a M2 his dad brought back from WW 2 he told me that the letter said "sell it or send it to the ATF" I did ask to see the letter of course. but if the ATF knows of it then that means it is in the NFA registry correct? and if so he should be able to form 5 it to himself being the next of kin? or sell it on a form 4 as a transfer m2 50 cal ?
Your conclusion that the M2 is in the registry is probably correct, since BATF has taken notice of it. It does not automatically follow, however, that it's a transferable gun. There's a lot of non-transferable guns in the registry. I would highly recommend that your friend call Bob Naess at Black River Militaria before doing anything. Bob has been dealing with MGs and the BATF since the 1950s and has experience with unpapered guns and how to save them if at all possible.
His number is 802 226-7204.
