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Building a cannon
12/14/2011 12:19:09 PM
Can a civilian build there own cannon? This would mainly be an acetylene noise maker, but can shoot bowling balls with the use of black powder. Is it legal to own/make one in the state of MO? TIA
12/14/2011 8:59:33 PM
Originally Posted By spdjnky_42:
Can a civilian build there own cannon? This would mainly be an acetylene noise maker, but can shoot bowling balls with the use of black powder. Is it legal to own/make one in the state of MO? TIA
Can a civilian build there own cannon? This would mainly be an acetylene noise maker, but can shoot bowling balls with the use of black powder. Is it legal to own/make one in the state of MO? TIA
civlian yes
noise maker is fine so is bowling balls
as long as its muzzle loading its not a DD
IIRC any breach loader would have to be reg as a DD and $200 tax paid before you could build
no clue about doing it in MO
if im wrong someone will be along to correct me
12/15/2011 5:31:38 PM
Originally Posted By tattoo:
civlian yes
noise maker is fine so is bowling balls
as long as its muzzle loading its not a DD
IIRC any breach loader would have to be reg as a DD and $200 tax paid before you could build
no clue about doing it in MO
if im wrong someone will be along to correct me
Originally Posted By spdjnky_42:
Can a civilian build there own cannon? This would mainly be an acetylene noise maker, but can shoot bowling balls with the use of black powder. Is it legal to own/make one in the state of MO? TIA
Can a civilian build there own cannon? This would mainly be an acetylene noise maker, but can shoot bowling balls with the use of black powder. Is it legal to own/make one in the state of MO? TIA
civlian yes
noise maker is fine so is bowling balls
as long as its muzzle loading its not a DD
IIRC any breach loader would have to be reg as a DD and $200 tax paid before you could build
no clue about doing it in MO
if im wrong someone will be along to correct me
You can make a breech loading smokeless powder cannon, as long as it does not use fixed case ammo. Bunch of guys out in cali shooting 20mm vulcan barrels this way with smokeless "bag guns".
12/15/2011 5:58:24 PM
Bowling ball? Your best bet is to make it more of a mortar than a cannon. Best way to make a bowling ball mortar I've seen is to use an inverted welding/industrial gas tank. The bottom is cut off for the muzzle, and nubbin at the "top" where the valve went becomes the powder chamber, and a percussion cap fixture can be threaded on at that point in place of the valve assembly.
Add a T&E framework, and you're all set.
Add a T&E framework, and you're all set.
12/19/2011 1:11:23 AM
Originally Posted By jestertoo:
.....
You can make a breech loading smokeless powder cannon, as long as it does not use fixed case ammo. Bunch of guys out in cali shooting 20mm vulcan barrels this way with smokeless "bag guns".
.....
You can make a breech loading smokeless powder cannon, as long as it does not use fixed case ammo. Bunch of guys out in cali shooting 20mm vulcan barrels this way with smokeless "bag guns".
I'm surprised by this, I would have figured that the ATF would consider an M198 Howitzer to be a destructive device...
I suppose the title and registration (trailer) for it may make up for the lack of ATF paperwork.
12/19/2011 1:55:08 PM
Originally Posted By mechanical:
I'm surprised by this, I would have figured that the ATF would consider an M198 Howitzer to be a destructive device...
I suppose the title and registration (trailer) for it may make up for the lack of ATF paperwork.
Originally Posted By jestertoo:
.....
You can make a breech loading smokeless powder cannon, as long as it does not use fixed case ammo. Bunch of guys out in cali shooting 20mm vulcan barrels this way with smokeless "bag guns".
.....
You can make a breech loading smokeless powder cannon, as long as it does not use fixed case ammo. Bunch of guys out in cali shooting 20mm vulcan barrels this way with smokeless "bag guns".
I'm surprised by this, I would have figured that the ATF would consider an M198 Howitzer to be a destructive device...
I suppose the title and registration (trailer) for it may make up for the lack of ATF paperwork.
Maybe they are "black powder" only.. Technically.
12/26/2011 10:46:43 PM
I am about 100% sure you can I worked at a school and the welding instructor built a cannon there is no regulation on black powder cannons in Missouri.
12/27/2011 11:02:43 AM
Originally Posted By jestertoo:
Maybe they are "black powder" only.. Technically.
Originally Posted By mechanical:
I'm surprised by this, I would have figured that the ATF would consider an M198 Howitzer to be a destructive device...
I suppose the title and registration (trailer) for it may make up for the lack of ATF paperwork.
Originally Posted By jestertoo:
.....
You can make a breech loading smokeless powder cannon, as long as it does not use fixed case ammo. Bunch of guys out in cali shooting 20mm vulcan barrels this way with smokeless "bag guns".
.....
You can make a breech loading smokeless powder cannon, as long as it does not use fixed case ammo. Bunch of guys out in cali shooting 20mm vulcan barrels this way with smokeless "bag guns".
I'm surprised by this, I would have figured that the ATF would consider an M198 Howitzer to be a destructive device...
I suppose the title and registration (trailer) for it may make up for the lack of ATF paperwork.
Maybe they are "black powder" only.. Technically.
No, the regs say anything that doesn't fire fixed ammunition is not a "firearm" under federal definition and therefore doesn't fall under ATF regs.. So long as the projectile, powder, and primer are seperate you're good to go, federally. State and local laws definitions may vary. for example, DC considers anything that fires a projectile by means of explosive force a firearm, and black powder guns are regulated and restricted.
1/1/2012 4:05:26 PM
No fixed ammo? Not a firearm.
+1 for AJ_Dual's recommendation of a chopped oxygen or acetylene tank. However, just be sure that the tank's ID will fit the bowling ball. I know one guy who went through the trouble to vent the tank, do the work, build a bipod and baseplate, and then discovered that the ball was a mm or two too big to fit.
Oh, and be damn sure that the tank is fully vented before even thinking of chopping or drilling on it.
Mike
+1 for AJ_Dual's recommendation of a chopped oxygen or acetylene tank. However, just be sure that the tank's ID will fit the bowling ball. I know one guy who went through the trouble to vent the tank, do the work, build a bipod and baseplate, and then discovered that the ball was a mm or two too big to fit.
Oh, and be damn sure that the tank is fully vented before even thinking of chopping or drilling on it.
Mike
1/19/2012 1:39:45 AM
Thanks guys for the replys. I have a hydrogen tank that I am using. It was supposed to be a oxygen tank. Guy I got it from said it was oxygen when I got home I found out I was driving around with a full hydrogen tank or in other words a hydrogen bomb. I took it to the farm set it out in an open field drove about 50 yds got out walked back and slightly opened the valve (facing the other way of course) then left and came back awhile later. I will fill the tank with water then remove valve and dump it, before cutting. I am hoping the ID is the same as a oxygen tank as they appear to be the same. An oxygen tank will just barely hold a 8.5" bowling ball. What would you guys recommend for the wick holder? Should I find a long threaded plug the put in the hole where the valve was and drill a hole in the center to accept a wick?
1/20/2012 9:25:52 AM
For those of you that are considering using a cut off portion of some of an industrial or welding compressed gas tank, I'd highly suggest, and this would be something that I would do if it were me, would be to ensure that it has recently gone through a hydrostatic test. I don't remember the interval requirements, but I believe it may be every 5 years. There will be some sort of date stamped into the top of the cylinder. The reason that I mention this, is because of the pressures that are involved when firing a heavy projectile through one of these. I have absolutely no idea of the pressures involved, and I've never personally seen a burst tank, but I'd hate to find out the hard way. Apples & oranges, but look at the flame thrower tank. YMMV.
http://flamethrowerexpert.com/res.html
http://flamethrowerexpert.com/res.html
1/20/2012 10:04:06 AM
Originally Posted By jrpett:
For those of you that are considering using a cut off portion of some of an industrial or welding compressed gas tank, I'd highly suggest, and this would be something that I would do if it were me, would be to ensure that it has recently gone through a hydrostatic test. I don't remember the interval requirements, but I believe it may be every 5 years. There will be some sort of date stamped into the top of the cylinder. The reason that I mention this, is because of the pressures that are involved when firing a heavy projectile through one of these. I have absolutely no idea of the pressures involved, and I've never personally seen a burst tank, but I'd hate to find out the hard way. Apples & oranges, but look at the flame thrower tank. YMMV.
http://flamethrowerexpert.com/res.html
http://flamethrowerexpert.com/images/Ruptured-Tank.jpg
For those of you that are considering using a cut off portion of some of an industrial or welding compressed gas tank, I'd highly suggest, and this would be something that I would do if it were me, would be to ensure that it has recently gone through a hydrostatic test. I don't remember the interval requirements, but I believe it may be every 5 years. There will be some sort of date stamped into the top of the cylinder. The reason that I mention this, is because of the pressures that are involved when firing a heavy projectile through one of these. I have absolutely no idea of the pressures involved, and I've never personally seen a burst tank, but I'd hate to find out the hard way. Apples & oranges, but look at the flame thrower tank. YMMV.
http://flamethrowerexpert.com/res.html
http://flamethrowerexpert.com/images/Ruptured-Tank.jpg
Apples and oranges on many levels. Mortars generally operate at relatively low pressures- this is why some people can safely re-weld mortar tubes and use them with low pressure dummy rounds. While there is always the chance of a burst (as with anything), that chance is low assuming that one is using the proper amount of black powder and isn't being stupid (i.e. using smokeless powder instead of black powder, using a ramrod to force a bowling ball in, using a damaged tank, etc.).
The pressures generated by the black powder are also extremely low compared to the pressures generated by filling the tank for normal (intended gas storage) use or compared to a flamethrower. If there was ever a burst with a bowling ball mortar, somebody did something very stupid or very wrong. The pressures just aren't there to support that sort of burst.
Mike
1/20/2012 5:21:00 PM
While we are on the subject. What is a safe measure of bp to use on this?
1/23/2012 6:55:57 PM
Originally Posted By prebans:
Apples and oranges on many levels. Mortars generally operate at relatively low pressures- this is why some people can safely re-weld mortar tubes and use them with low pressure dummy rounds. While there is always the chance of a burst (as with anything), that chance is low assuming that one is using the proper amount of black powder and isn't being stupid (i.e. using smokeless powder instead of black powder, using a ramrod to force a bowling ball in, using a damaged tank, etc.).
The pressures generated by the black powder are also extremely low compared to the pressures generated by filling the tank for normal (intended gas storage) use or compared to a flamethrower. If there was ever a burst with a bowling ball mortar, somebody did something very stupid or very wrong. The pressures just aren't there to support that sort of burst.
Mike
Originally Posted By jrpett:
For those of you that are considering using a cut off portion of some of an industrial or welding compressed gas tank, I'd highly suggest, and this would be something that I would do if it were me, would be to ensure that it has recently gone through a hydrostatic test. I don't remember the interval requirements, but I believe it may be every 5 years. There will be some sort of date stamped into the top of the cylinder. The reason that I mention this, is because of the pressures that are involved when firing a heavy projectile through one of these. I have absolutely no idea of the pressures involved, and I've never personally seen a burst tank, but I'd hate to find out the hard way. Apples & oranges, but look at the flame thrower tank. YMMV.
http://flamethrowerexpert.com/res.html
http://flamethrowerexpert.com/images/Ruptured-Tank.jpg
For those of you that are considering using a cut off portion of some of an industrial or welding compressed gas tank, I'd highly suggest, and this would be something that I would do if it were me, would be to ensure that it has recently gone through a hydrostatic test. I don't remember the interval requirements, but I believe it may be every 5 years. There will be some sort of date stamped into the top of the cylinder. The reason that I mention this, is because of the pressures that are involved when firing a heavy projectile through one of these. I have absolutely no idea of the pressures involved, and I've never personally seen a burst tank, but I'd hate to find out the hard way. Apples & oranges, but look at the flame thrower tank. YMMV.
http://flamethrowerexpert.com/res.html
http://flamethrowerexpert.com/images/Ruptured-Tank.jpg
Apples and oranges on many levels. Mortars generally operate at relatively low pressures- this is why some people can safely re-weld mortar tubes and use them with low pressure dummy rounds. While there is always the chance of a burst (as with anything), that chance is low assuming that one is using the proper amount of black powder and isn't being stupid (i.e. using smokeless powder instead of black powder, using a ramrod to force a bowling ball in, using a damaged tank, etc.).
The pressures generated by the black powder are also extremely low compared to the pressures generated by filling the tank for normal (intended gas storage) use or compared to a flamethrower. If there was ever a burst with a bowling ball mortar, somebody did something very stupid or very wrong. The pressures just aren't there to support that sort of burst.
Mike
Mike, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. But that's what makes things interesting, doesn't it?
Yes, the flamethrower example was apples and oranges but I stand by everything else. OK, so the pressures involved with black powder are relatively low compared to smokeless. Trying to launch a 15 or so lb. bowling ball creates what, 10K-15K PSI.? And even though black powder
deflagrates rather than explodes it still produces a pressure spike. Most compressed gas cylinders are hydrostatically tested at 3000 to 6000 PSI depending on the type of cylinder. And in hydrostatic testing the pressure is increased slowly. So you've got a cylinder that is being subjected to anywhere from 2 to 5 times it test pressure, and the pressure is coming under high temperature and with a rapid pressure spike. Temperature is not good. There's a reason why gas cylinders are submerged in cold water while being filled. And don't even get me started with using a hydrogen tank. Without knowing it's history, hydrogen embrittlement may have set in. If you use one of these you may as well wrap yourself in MKII pineapple grenades and pull the pins. I recall reading somewhere that referred to the use of gas cylinders as "Darwin mortars". I can see why. I have no idea if there's ever been a CATO with one of these, but I can't possibly fathom what it would look like. If I were to make one of these, I'd use some nice, thick DOM steel. The thought of using a gas cylinder would scare the hell out of me.
