AR15.Com Archives
 .44 Mag Lever-Action Vs. .30-30 Ballistics
Mountain_Snipe  [Team Member]
6/27/2008 9:55:40 PM
I have a .44mag revolver so I'd like to get a.44mag lever gun as a brush gun without having to mess with a different cartridge.

My question is, how does a .44mag lever gun and a .30-30 compare ballistics-wise?
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RJT1  [Member]
6/27/2008 9:57:35 PM
I think you will find the .44 will take down deer very well within 100 yards or so.
Mountain_Snipe  [Team Member]
6/27/2008 10:00:41 PM

Originally Posted By RJT1:
I think you will find the .44 will take down deer very well within 100 yards or so.


Perfect, thanks.
thumper10mm  [Team Member]
6/27/2008 10:13:06 PM
linky

This should help.
The 30-30 rifle is a good bit larger, but has better ballistics.
The Marlin 1894 carbine is my favorite lever gun, get a scout mount and a decent red dot and you have a fantastic brush gun.
linky
bobbyjack  [Team Member]
8/14/2008 12:06:26 AM
The 30/30 has more energy at 100 Yards than the 44Rem Mag has at the muzzel!

If you want to compete with the 30/30 ,get a 38-55 or .375Win which necked down will be a 30/30! Or get .444!

Bob
GTTacoma  [Member]
8/16/2008 12:18:33 AM

Originally Posted By bobbyjack:
The 30/30 has more energy at 100 Yards than the 44Rem Mag has at the muzzel!

If you want to compete with the 30/30 ,get a 38-55 or .375Win which necked down will be a 30/30! Or get .444!

Bob


Wow.

You must be looking at ballistics for .44 magnum out of a handgun length barrel.

With comparable bullet weights, and barrel lengths, energy is fairly equal.

.44 Magnum Remington UMC 180gr chronos out of my Marlin 1894P at 2100 - 2150 fps. .30-30's generally chrono 170gr at 2200 fps.

The Taylor knockout formula places the .44 magnum (with 240gr bullets)out of a carbine at and above the levels of a 30-06. WAY below the 30-30. I believe it.


Rabon  [Team Member]
8/16/2008 12:57:07 AM
Animals are not impressed with energy figures, they can't read. They are impressed with heavy, hardcast lead bullets which knock a 1/2 hole plumb thru them. At levergun ranges the 44 is a much better gun than the 30-30. The Taylor knockout formula: learn it, live it love it.
hk940  [Member]
8/16/2008 1:17:33 AM

Originally Posted By Rabon:
Animals are not impressed with energy figures, they can't read. They are impressed with heavy, hardcast lead bullets which knock a 1/2 hole plumb thru them. At levergun ranges the 44 is a much better gun than the 30-30. The Taylor knockout formula: learn it, live it love it.


good advice!!!
the 44 mag will do more work than a 30-30 as a brush gun. but 240grn HP pistol bullets or the 265grn bullets rated for 444 marlin will take deer at 50-100 yds. much better than a 30-30.
brasidas  [Member]
8/16/2008 1:46:26 AM
My Winchester 44 carbine has a muzzle velocity of like 1600 fps with handloaded 300 grain bullets (you would have to load it a little lighter if you had a S&W and/or Marlin; you can load 300 grain bullets a little hotter if you have a Redhawk and/or Winchester 94). That is about 1700 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle, which is within spitting distance of the 30/30. I zero it at 130 yards and would not have a problem making a 150 yard shot on a deer without holdover.

With a 30/30, I'd do a 170 yard zero and feel comfortable taking a 200 yard shot. So you get about 50 more yards with the 30/30.

44 mag is one of the few handgun cartridges that benefits significantly from the longer barrel of a carbine. You gain 400+ fps.
cerberus1  [Team Member]
8/16/2008 2:01:19 AM

Originally Posted By brasidas:
</snip>
44 mag is one of the few handgun cartridges that benefits significantly from the longer barrel of a carbine. You gain 400+ fps.


I did not realize this! .44 RemMag. AR carbine, anybody?
blackhawkhunter  [Team Member]
8/17/2008 9:59:34 AM

Originally Posted By brasidas:
My Winchester 44 carbine has a muzzle velocity of like 1600 fps with handloaded 300 grain bullets (you would have to load it a little lighter if you had a S&W and/or Marlin; you can load 300 grain bullets a little hotter if you have a Redhawk and/or Winchester 94). .


You sure about the Marlin vs Winchester.... I have always heard and read the Marlin was the stronger of the two and owning both tend to believe it.

You are right about Ruger vs S&W.
Radjxf  [Member]
8/17/2008 3:20:00 PM
Most people buy a lever gun for shots <100 yds often in heavy cover. IMO for that application, I'll take a 44mag with 10+ rds anyday, whether I need all that capacity or not.
Nothing wrong with the 30-30, I just prefer the capacity and especially the slick, short action of my Marlin 1894.
bobbyjack  [Team Member]
8/17/2008 6:48:29 PM

Originally Posted By cerberus1:

Originally Posted By brasidas:
</snip>
44 mag is one of the few handgun cartridges that benefits significantly from the longer barrel of a carbine. You gain 400+ fps.


I did not realize this! .44 RemMag. AR carbine, anybody?


BS that means if I put a twelve foot barrel on a rifle with a .44Rem Mag it will benefit by this long barrel?


The 30/30 win will allways outshoot the 44.rem Mag pistol cartridge!

Same as the 44/40 or any short pistol cartridge! Rifle cartridges are that(and short pistol cartridges)are what they are!

Spin doctor it all you will,there is a difference!


Bob
MEatVt  [Member]
8/17/2008 7:18:48 PM
30-30 kills deer dead. 44 Mag kills deer dead.

This argument is moot. Both calibers are more than lethal at brush ranges and both calibers are great choices for a lever gun. Go with personal preference. If you already have a .44 pistol go with the 44 rifle.
cerberus1  [Team Member]
8/17/2008 10:42:13 PM

Originally Posted By bobbyjack:

Originally Posted By cerberus1:

Originally Posted By brasidas:
</snip>
44 mag is one of the few handgun cartridges that benefits significantly from the longer barrel of a carbine. You gain 400+ fps.


I did not realize this! .44 RemMag. AR carbine, anybody?


BS that means if I put a twelve foot barrel on a rifle with a .44Rem Mag it will benefit by this long barrel?

Well,I didn't mean for that coment to be taken to such a facetious level.
I merely intended to acknowledge that I was aware of the fact that
pistol cartridges generally tend to gain velocity from carbine-length barrels.

Thus, I thought that a "gain of 400fps" might warrant
developing a semi-auto platform for that cartridge.



The 30/30 win will allways outshoot the 44.rem Mag pistol cartridge!

Same as the 44/40 or any short pistol cartridge! Rifle cartridges are that(and short pistol cartridges)are what they are!

Spin doctor it all you will,there is a difference!


Bob
yekimak  [Team Member]
8/17/2008 10:53:36 PM
This is the only gun subject more divisive than either AR vs AK or 9mm VS .45. It should never be brought up because it tends to go the way of an abortion thread or a beans in chili thread.

I like both rounds but I wish Marlin's .44's would work with heavy cast loads as that would make it much more useful for me than my .30-30 and I would have no choice but to buy one. I have the .30-30 as more or less a must have for a gun collection, it isn't really a hot hunting round up here.
GENESMITH  [Life Member]
8/17/2008 11:14:34 PM

Originally Posted By yekimak:
This is the only gun subject more divisive than either AR vs AK or 9mm VS .45. It should never be brought up because it tends to go the way of an abortion thread or a beans in chili thread.

I like both rounds but I wish Marlin's .44's would work with heavy cast loads as that would make it much more useful for me than my .30-30 and I would have no choice but to buy one. I have the .30-30 as more or less a must have for a gun collection, it isn't really a hot hunting round up here.



While reading this thread I was thinking the same thing.

This has turned into one of "those" threads.


Does anyone have any actual hard data on a 30-30 vs 44 mag out of a similar length barrel?


Gene
SkagSig40  [Team Member]
8/18/2008 3:43:58 AM
44>30-30....it hits harder out to 100 yards. Every reloading book I have says so.
blackhawkhunter  [Team Member]
8/18/2008 11:11:59 AM
Hmmmm, I will have to look when I get home, but my ballistics software shows the 30-30 to be better than the 44 on factory ammo.
Hokie  [Team Member]
8/18/2008 12:13:46 PM
I own a Marlin 1894 in 44mag for the 10-shot capacity, brutal knockdown power, and light recoil.

Compared to the 30-30, I'm not seeing much of a comparison inside of 100 yards. Outside 100 yards might be a different story....dunno.
GENESMITH  [Life Member]
8/18/2008 12:44:43 PM
That does it!


Paging O_P, paging O_P.

We need some "official" testing to be done.

Hokie  [Team Member]
8/18/2008 2:43:56 PM

Originally Posted By GENESMITH:
That does it!


Paging O_P, paging O_P.

We need some "official" testing to be done.



Now THAT is a Box O' Truth episode if I ever saw one! Here's hoping OP thinks the same!
blackhawkhunter  [Team Member]
8/18/2008 2:53:37 PM

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Originally Posted By GENESMITH:
That does it!


Paging O_P, paging O_P.

We need some "official" testing to be done.



Now THAT is a Box O' Truth episode if I ever saw one! Here's hoping OP thinks the same!


I know the concept was kicked around some, but not sure how far it went.
brasidas  [Member]
8/18/2008 4:58:46 PM

Originally Posted By blackhawkhunter:

Originally Posted By brasidas:
My Winchester 44 carbine has a muzzle velocity of like 1600 fps with handloaded 300 grain bullets (you would have to load it a little lighter if you had a S&W and/or Marlin; you can load 300 grain bullets a little hotter if you have a Redhawk and/or Winchester 94). .


You sure about the Marlin vs Winchester.... I have always heard and read the Marlin was the stronger of the two and owning both tend to believe it.

You are right about Ruger vs S&W.

As far as the rifles, it does not have anything to do with the strength of the action (I think you are correct that the Marlin is stronger, but 44 Mag is pretty low pressure at least compared to centerfire rifle cartridges).

The problem is that when using a maximum powder charge and 300 grain bullets, you have to load the 44 Mag to maximum length (using the rear cannelure on most 300 grain bullets). The Marlin 1894, being a dedicated handgun cartridge carbine, can not feed the longer bullets. Winchester quit producing their dedicated handgun cartridge carbine in 1932 (the Model 1892), so all of their pistol firing rifles are Model 94s, which were built for rifle rounds and therefore can feed longer cartridges.

The Marlin will not have problems with any bullet except 300 grains, and the 300 grain rounds just need to be loaded a little less powder so that the bullet can be set back a bit.

Here is a pic of a 300 grain bullet with the two cannelures:
.

ETA: I don't know this to be true myself (I don't own an 1894); this information is from the Speer reloading catalog.
blackhawkhunter  [Team Member]
8/18/2008 5:05:59 PM

Originally Posted By brasidas:

Originally Posted By blackhawkhunter:

Originally Posted By brasidas:
My Winchester 44 carbine has a muzzle velocity of like 1600 fps with handloaded 300 grain bullets (you would have to load it a little lighter if you had a S&W and/or Marlin; you can load 300 grain bullets a little hotter if you have a Redhawk and/or Winchester 94). .


You sure about the Marlin vs Winchester.... I have always heard and read the Marlin was the stronger of the two and owning both tend to believe it.

You are right about Ruger vs S&W.

As far as the rifles, it does not have anything to do with the strength of the action (I think you are correct that the Marlin is stronger, but 44 Mag is pretty low pressure at least compared to centerfire rifle cartridges).

The problem is that when using a maximum powder charge and 300 grain bullets, you have to load the 44 Mag to maximum length (using the rear cannelure on most 300 grain bullets). The Marlin 1894, being a dedicated handgun cartridge carbine, can not feed the longer bullets. Winchester quit producing their dedicated handgun cartridge carbine in 1932 (the Model 1892), so all of their pistol firing rifles are Model 94s, which were built for rifle rounds and therefore can feed longer cartridges.

The Marlin will not have problems with any bullet except 300 grains, and the 300 grain rounds just need to be loaded a little less powder so that the bullet can be set back a bit.

Here is a pic of a 300 grain bullet with the two cannelures:
www.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/staticpages/highres/284212.jpg.


Gotcha!

I love both cartridges, but the 30-30 is my go-to deer rifle. I have shot deer with an old Ruger semi auto 44 and they were suitably impressed so I would not feel undergunned with a 44 for deer.... I jus tlike the 30-30 for that application a little better.
Rabon  [Team Member]
8/18/2008 10:24:34 PM
Should you go wirth the 44 Mag keep in mind the Marlin uses a 1 in 38 twist and has trouble stabilizing heavy bullets. Both the Win and the Marlin can handle any load you would use in a Ruger Handgun. If I were to use a 44 levergun (which I wouldn't) I would get it in a 92 Rossi. If you want a lot of power in a levergun the 92 chambered for the 454 Casull or 480 Ruger is a good place to start looking, plus they hold 10 rounds. In my 92 chambered for the 454 Casull I used a 335 cast at 2000 fps, if you don't handload Winchester loads a 300 gr jacketed bullet at 2000 fps.
GaryM  [Member]
8/19/2008 9:46:48 PM
I handload 44 mag for both a Marlin 336 and a Redhawk (7 1/2" barrel)
firing the same load using a 300gr hard cast gascheck bullet the rifle delivers right at 250fps more than the pistol.
Even though the marlin has a microgroove barrel it shoots these bullets well.
Firing 240gr plated bullets through the marlin was pathetic. I am talking 4-6" patterns at 25yds.
With the Marlin I have to watch my overall length too. The Redhawk handles much longer cartridges.

BTW, load data is
300gr Lee gas check hardcast
20gr WC820
redhawk=1300fps, 1164FtLbs
Marlin=1550fps, 1654ftLbs


One more edit.
For interesting terminal ballistics data including like FtLbs, TKO etc. try this site, ]www.beartoothbullets.com[/urll] look in the ballisticians corner.
Editted because I dug out my spreadsheet for confirmation
MTNmyMag  [Team Member]
8/19/2008 9:49:11 PM
30/30 wins
bobbyjack  [Team Member]
8/19/2008 10:03:16 PM

Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
30/30 wins


Allways has brother except I like the .375Win better! 200 grain bullet much faster and same best carry rifle ever!

Bob
sigp226  [Member]
8/19/2008 10:21:09 PM

Originally Posted By Mountain_Snipe:
I have a .44mag revolver so I'd like to get a.44mag lever gun as a brush gun without having to mess with a different cartridge.

My question is, how does a .44mag lever gun and a .30-30 compare ballistics-wise?


You'll see the difference at distances beyond 50 yards. The ballistic coefficient for the lightweight .44s is awful. Not that the 150 grain round nose .308 is some stellar parter of the atmosphere, but the BC for a Hornady 150 grain round nose .308 bullet is .186. The BC for the 180 grain flat point .430 bullet is .138.

They will lose more velocity than the thirty caliber bullets, so they will drop more and shift more due to wind.

At 50 yards, the things are awesome. They're good at 100, too, but you have to know your rifle a bit more.

The 240 grain .44 bullets actually have a better BC than the .30 caliber round nose bullets, but they are moving much slower at the muzzle, and they tend to drop like rocks at distance.

And the Hornady Leverrevolution ammunition advertises some pretty amazing 200 yard performance for a lever action. I've never tried it, though.
blackhawkhunter  [Team Member]
8/20/2008 8:29:28 AM
OK, I checked my Remington software program, the Lyman book, and the Nosler book and a TC book, and they all show that the 30-30 is better than the 44. Out to 100 yards its not enough different that you should feel undergunned with the 44, but there is a difference.

For the guys that say the 44 is better, what books are you finding that in? Reloading books can drive ya crazy because in places they seem to show conflicting data.....

I like the 44 a lot.... but everything I have confirms that the 30-30 is better from the muzzle to 100 yards in both velocity and ftlbs.
Rabon  [Team Member]
8/20/2008 2:39:14 PM
If you believe the 223 Reminton is more powerful than the 45-70 Govt then energy figures are right up your alley. Some folks however do not and prefer to use the Taylor Formula which is Bullet Weight X Bullet Diameter X Velocity divided by 7000 =
blackhawkhunter  [Team Member]
8/20/2008 3:03:40 PM

Originally Posted By Rabon:
If you believe the 223 Reminton is more powerful than the 45-70 Govt then energy figures are right up your alley. Some folks however do not and prefer to use the Taylor Formula which is Bullet Weight X Bullet Diameter X Velocity divided by 7000 =


The Taylor Formula is someone trying to put a formula to Taylors theory and is just an attempt to explain bullet effects.

Most people agree that while it is an interesting theory, even somewhat applicable, the math part is fairly useless. It is heavily weighted toward bullet diameter among other faults.

Its hard to argue with foot pounds!!!!! The next important part is bullet construction. And shot placement. And.......
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