AR15.Com Archives
 what is the most reliable 223/5.56 rifle?
par0thead151  [Member]
1/28/2008 4:40:47 PM EST
I am a bit disenfranchised with the AR platform as i had my brand new bushmaster lock up on me, the bolt was all but fused to the upper and would only move with extreme pressure/force.
im wondering what the most reliable rifle chambered in 5.56 is?
hopefully it takes Ar mags as i am heavily invested in the 5.56 cal, and Ar mags.
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thedoctors308  [Team Member]
1/28/2008 4:41:24 PM EST
A Colt AR15
HiramRanger  [Life Member]
1/28/2008 4:47:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
A Colt AR15


Wow... that's some good kool-aid you got there.
daiwadave  [Member]
1/28/2008 4:52:50 PM EST
imi galil and buy a mag adaptor
par0thead151  [Member]
1/28/2008 4:52:51 PM EST
I have been seriously considering the rob arms XCR as i have shot one many times and it was very solid.
Joguwa86  [Member]
1/28/2008 4:55:33 PM EST
Mini 14's are reliable, as well as AK's in .223. Neither will have much in terms of accuracy, however.

Maybe give the AR15 another shot?

(This IS AR15.com. )
Copperjacket  [Member]
1/28/2008 4:57:57 PM EST
Remington Model 700 VTR...mine has never failed to cycle once!

Also as accurate as anything I own
par0thead151  [Member]
1/28/2008 5:01:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Joguwa86:
Mini 14's are reliable, as well as AK's in .223. Neither will have much in terms of accuracy, however.

Maybe give the AR15 another shot?

(This IS AR15.com. )


i know i know.
just this particular rifle(tax time upper i got)
was functioning just fine and at round number 197 it had the problem. rifle is now as useless as a aluminum club. Bushmaster will make good on the defective upper, but if i was in a situation where i needed this rifle, i would be SOL.
that being said, my RRA A3 has had 0 problems for thousands of rounds, so i guess maybe this one just had a manufacturing defect.
it was odd, the round did not even eject, i had to use a wooden dowel and mallet to coax it open enough to eject the spent brass casing. the brass was within the range of Case overall length, no flat primer, or anything too obviously wrong with it. i tried it in a case gauge and it fit there as well.
HiramRanger  [Life Member]
1/28/2008 5:04:15 PM EST
Try a Daewoo DR200... and in case you were wondering AZEX does some sick Daewoo mods and has a link on his site to American made parts.

ETA, picked this up today... haven't played with it yet. Armalite designed it to be more reliable than an AR15.





Will take modified AR mags.
BB  [Member]
1/28/2008 5:08:04 PM EST
AR18
Observer  [Team Member]
1/28/2008 5:32:38 PM EST
I've been pretty impressed with my good friend's Sig556.

The thing I liked a lot about it is that the internals look VERY similar (although clearly updated) to my FNC and that has been a very reliable rifle for me.

It even dents the crap out of the brass and the upper receiver in the same locations....okay so maybe that isn't exactly a selling point but still! lol

Extraction and ejection are forceful and the action stays pretty clean as you would expect from a piston driven upper.

The bonus is that you can pick them up for reasonable prices since the fanboys all think it's ugly.

If I didn't have the TPD AXR on the way I'd probably consider picking up a sig.
thedoctors308  [Team Member]
1/28/2008 5:34:58 PM EST
If you don't want an AR15, an XCR, AR180 (originals, not the bravos) would be good choices.
There is also the FS2000, or if you care to wait, the Masada.
kilgoretrout  [Team Member]
1/28/2008 8:00:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By par0thead151:
I am a bit disenfranchised with the AR platform as i had my brand new bushmaster lock up on me, the bolt was all but fused to the upper and would only move with extreme pressure/force.
im wondering what the most reliable rifle chambered in 5.56 is?
hopefully it takes Ar mags as i am heavily invested in the 5.56 cal, and Ar mags.


I would think a bolt action.
cms81586  [Team Member]
1/28/2008 8:13:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By daiwadave:
imi galil and buy a mag adaptor


Those mag adapters feed like shit for the most part. My guess would be a factory HK93. 5.56 AK's have trouble...every AK platform in this caliber usually gets a bad reputation. Even the Galil is pretty well phased out. The roller lock mechanism is on par with AK reliability and it's more reliable than 5.56 AK's so that's my guess. Very few moving parts, still extracts with no extractor installed, and accurate. My HK-91 has been the most accurate semi auto rifle I own that's been 100% with more than 2K rnds through them.

ETA: I forgot the sig 55x series. They're good to go but pricey and the Sig 556 has not been around long enough to see...although owners seem happy. I still say HK-93...made by Heckler & Koch...not a clone.
biggmac1  [Member]
1/28/2008 8:18:01 PM EST
I'm getting a POF 415 this weekend. I'll have a range report after I hammer the crap out of it on Saturday.
john575  [Team Member]
1/28/2008 8:18:57 PM EST
AR 15 has always been reliable for me.
Mini-14 also.
DemolitionDamon  [Member]
1/28/2008 8:28:58 PM EST
If money was no object I would go with a TPD-AXR.
SKS_Lover  [Member]
1/28/2008 8:47:16 PM EST
It doesn't take AR15 mags, but a Tromix Saiga conversion is a good choice, can be had for around $800.


I've heard many great thing about the XCR and if the Sig 556 had different furniture I would buy it, I'm just not crazy about the railed forearm and I don't want to pay 200 bucks for a Swiss made one, Not just because it's ugly though, but because it's uncomfortable. But it's plenty ugly too.
BulletBait  [Team Member]
1/28/2008 8:51:06 PM EST
Galil hands down.

My Yugo M90A is 100%, but it is home built with a US receiver.
mort  [Team Member]
1/28/2008 8:52:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By par0thead151:
I am a bit disenfranchised with the AR platform as i had my brand new bushmaster lock up on me, the bolt was all but fused to the upper and would only move with extreme pressure/force.
im wondering what the most reliable rifle chambered in 5.56 is?
hopefully it takes Ar mags as i am heavily invested in the 5.56 cal, and Ar mags.


Remington 700 in .223. I am not sure if they chamber it in 5.56 but you can probably find an after market barrel for it in 5.56. I don't think you are going to find one that takes AR mags.

You did say most reliable rifle didn't you?


ETA:
I would say get an XCR, that is what I use as my Go To gun. It has less recoil than my A2 and feeds ammo more reliably than any other rifle I own. I would suggest the light barrel version as the hbar makes the gun front heavy.
The new adjustable gas system allows you to adjust your gas settings without tools. DO NOT TOUCH THE GAS SYSTEM AFTER FIRING THE GUN. I got a nice brand on my finger tips for my stupidity. You will learn to love the bolt catch, no longer have to do that funny three arm maneuver to lock the bolt back.

And remember a conversion kit is $500 bucks away.
MuRDoC  [Member]
1/28/2008 8:58:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By par0thead151:
I am a bit disenfranchised with the AR platform as i had my brand new bushmaster lock up on me, the bolt was all but fused to the upper and would only move with extreme pressure/force.
im wondering what the most reliable rifle chambered in 5.56 is?
hopefully it takes Ar mags as i am heavily invested in the 5.56 cal, and Ar mags.


what do you mean fused? could be ammo related, not the rifles fault
desertmoon  [Team Member]
1/28/2008 10:28:13 PM EST
I'm thinking your AR specimen is NOT typical.

I've built or bought about 10 ARs and have NEVER had an issue with one. I had a seriously beat up M16A1 in the Army that ran just as well than any I have owned. My friend's GM Hydramatic runs awesome too....and that is one UGLY M16.
MuRDoC  [Member]
1/28/2008 10:37:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
My friend's GM Hydramatic runs awesome too....and that is one UGLY M16.



I've always wanted one of those
Ryno_the_wyno  [Member]
1/28/2008 10:52:11 PM EST
AR's are good weapons and can be made to function with a high level of reliability. That being said, there is a reason that DI isn't used in any other modern military rifles.
In the context of its original design, which was to replace the M1/M2 carbine for airbase security units, the original DI AR15 is just fine. USAF MP's guarding Offut AFB are in relatively benign environments and have regular accesses to cleaning materials and armorer support. They aren't likely to be using thier weapons as SAWs and firing thousands of rounds in the jungle without cleaning. The modern M16 and carbines is a much different animal than the original Armalite design and IMO,the gun is being used beyond the limits of its original design/intent. The carbine is a fatally flawed weapon for a number of reasons and has never satsfied many of the units that use it. This is exactly why we have the SCAR coming online, not to mention other foriegn weapons in the inventory. None the less, the M16/AR works...A 20 inch AR rifle will be a very accurate,reliable,durable and long lasting weapon. Afterall, the design/caliber was intended to be used in a rifle, not a carbine. Still, some carbines work very well and with proper maitnance, its a weapon that you can trust your life with.

While the M16 isn't perfect, soldiers seem to be liking it okay. They report a high level of confidence in it, around 80% IIRC. The M249 isn't as loved and should be replaced by the Ultimak or HK MG43/MG4 ASAP.

Though the M16 works, better/more reliable rifles exist. My vote for the "most reliable 5.56 rifel" would have to be one of the "Westernized" or "improved" AK's. Examples of these weapons would be the AK5/FNC/SCAR, Sig 55x and IMI Galil. All of these weapons are battle proven and are exceptionally reliable weapons. Since its an iteration of the AK74M, another battle proven weapon, the SLR106 would also have to be included on this list. The AK47 is without a doubt the most reliable assault rifle on the planet. The aforementioned rifles use adaptations of the AKM operating system, but are made with better components and chambered for a more accurate caliber. Also, some of these rifles are more durable than an AKM.

The AR180 and its derivatives,are also very reliable guns. This would include the Asian desecndants like the Type 89, various CIS guns and Daewoos. European itterations like the G36 and L85A1 are also decent guns, but suffer not because of the operating system but because of plastic trunions and poor manufacturing materials/tolerances/techniques.Still, both the G36 and L85 are successful in military service and thier troubles cannot compare to the troubles of the first M16. The AR180 was designed because Armalite lost the rights to sell the AR15 abroad and to correct some of the design challenges. These challenges would be Colt's ownership, expensive manufacturing process and dubious reliability compared to piston guns. AR180's have served in several conflicts/militaries and are good guns. AR180B's are also excellent piston guns, especially for the money.

The best solution to the M16's challenges aren't chrome lined barrels and non chrome lined bolts, but gas piston operating systems. There are several routes to take with this, all with differences. The HK416/17 appears to be an excellent gun. Its too early to know for sure, but US special operators have been using them and seem to like them very much. Though to them, anythings probably better than a M4. Keep in mind, they also used XM8's for a while too. The 416 is better than the XM8, but its still new and time will tell. IMO, the jury is still out on gas piston AR's, but it looks like they are great guns...they just lack the 40+ years of combat experience.

5.56 FAL's are also reliable guns, though heavy and essentially vaporware. If made properly, the MD2 or RRA should be as reliable as a 7.62x51 FAL, which is legendary... to put it mildly. Whether the Red Rock .223 FAL is an MD2 or DSA 7.62 FAL remains to be seen, but the operating system is very reliable. HK roller delayed blowbacks are also very reliable guns, though not the most simplistic or easiest to maintain. 5.56 HK 33's and 23's are in military service by some, but use the same operating system as the G3, which is the next best thing/equal to the FAL-which is NATO's answer to the AK, IMO. You have to respect guns that were made in the 60's, minimally/never maintained, used constantly and are still supporting Africa's decline to this day.

This was just a quick run-down on some of my thoughts about reliable 5.56 rifles. Reliability is in the eye of the beholder. Whats acceptible/desirable in a weapon is different for everyone. If you are someone who shoots casually and looking for a reliable and easily maintained rifle, the Mini 14 GB is a great rifle. My GB's were among the most reliable weapons I have ever owned. They aren't perfect, no weapon is, but for a light defensive/patrol carbine, they are tough to beat. I know people who have had Mini 14's since 1999 and haven't cleaned them yet...all the while, experiencing no failures. AR's aren't the ideal rifle for everyone and every application. They are highly servicable weapons, reliable/durable/accurate too...but there is a reason guns don't use DI operating system.

Get a good gas piston rifle and you will have a reliable and easily maintained rifle.
cms81586  [Team Member]
1/28/2008 10:52:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
My friend's GM Hydramatic runs awesome too....and that is one UGLY M16.



I've always wanted one of those


I got to carry one around for a month two summers ago. It was a pos and probably had double the round count of the expected service life. Only time I failed to quality...I was too busy doing SPORTS...
Combat_Jack  [Team Member]
1/28/2008 11:03:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By par0thead151:
I am a bit disenfranchised with the AR platform as i had my brand new bushmaster lock up on me, the bolt was all but fused to the upper and would only move with extreme pressure/force.
im wondering what the most reliable rifle chambered in 5.56 is?
hopefully it takes Ar mags as i am heavily invested in the 5.56 cal, and Ar mags.


what do you mean fused? could be ammo related, not the rifles fault
PromptCritical  [Team Member]
1/28/2008 11:11:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By par0thead151:
I am a bit disenfranchised with the AR platform as i had my brand new bushmaster lock up on me, the bolt was all but fused to the upper and would only move with extreme pressure/force.
im wondering what the most reliable rifle chambered in 5.56 is?
hopefully it takes Ar mags as i am heavily invested in the 5.56 cal, and Ar mags.


You know, one bad experience with one rifle is hardly cause to throw in the towel on a whole system.

didja try oiling it? While every bushmaster I have bought ran great from the start, you might want to check everything out, clean it and oil it. Take it to the range again and break it in a little.
Culprit187  [Member]
1/29/2008 2:13:22 AM EST
Obviously a bolt action would probably be the most "reliable".

But as far as semi autos go, I would vote for the Galil or its clone the "Golani Sporter", just sell the AR mags and get Galil mags. The Galil is one solid piece of rifle and you can crack skulls all day with the folding buttstock no problem...cuz its solid steel and it has no play at all. But it is a heavy rifle...dont buy it if you want a light rifle.

My next choice would be an XCR which you could use your AR mags in.

Both should prove to be reliable rifles, at least they have been for me.

Culp
ChickenDaddy  [Member]
1/29/2008 3:55:28 AM EST
Sig 556 or XCR.

I'd even give another brand AR a chance. Try a piston upper, even.
LIONHART  [Member]
1/29/2008 5:42:35 AM EST
Out of the 15 or so AR15's that I've had since 1992 to current manufacture, and to include two piston rifle's, I say GET A SIG 556!!!!!!!!!

I no longer own anymore AR's.... And I sleep just fine at night.
chan67  [Member]
1/29/2008 6:39:36 AM EST
If you were basing your choice mainly on reliability then the sig556 has the edge over the xcr. Their are 4 points of failure that the xcr has that the 556 does not have. The first one is the quick change barrel. the allen screw can be left loose or come loose if not torqued correctly. The second is the old style gas block lock nut this also can come loose along with the gas block allen bolt that holds the block to the barrel. The ejector can not only come loose but also come off really jamming up your gun. All of the points listed above can cause malfunctions and have happened to me. They are all easily corrected by proper maintanence but still are things I don't have to worry about in my sig. That being said I would still have a hard time choosing between the two.
-AR18-  [Member]
1/29/2008 8:23:44 AM EST



desertmoon  [Team Member]
1/29/2008 8:50:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By -AR18-:
i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/Notch_2003/AR18_folded.jpg


i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/Notch_2003/AR18FULLY.jpg


OK OK OK!!!

STOP MAKING ME MISS MY COSTA MESA, ALREADY!!!!
swede1986  [Member]
1/29/2008 9:20:23 AM EST

FNC FTW!
Essayons  [Team Member]
1/29/2008 9:32:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By par0thead151:
what is the most reliable 223/5.56 rifle?


IMO, probably the CZ-527 Mini-Mauser (you didn't say semi-auto )

www.cz-usa.com/products_smallbore_rifles.php

+1 on the Galil comments. They were the choice of the Israelis, South Africans and others. The reason they didn't see more use in Israel, IIRC, was their weight and cost relative to american M16s. IIRC, Galils/R4s saw some action in Central America, too.

ETA (before someone else does) that the Marines tested the M16A1 agains the Galil, FNC and other platforms, and chose to improve the M16 . . .
LARRYG  [Team Member]
1/29/2008 1:39:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Try a Daewoo DR200... and in case you were wondering AZEX does some sick Daewoo mods and has a link on his site to American made parts.

ETA, picked this up today... haven't played with it yet. Armalite designed it to be more reliable than an AR15.

Will take modified AR mags.


No, they designed it with a piston because they had sold the DI patent to Colt and could not make a similar rifle.

The original AR18/180 was designed to be easy to produce by nations without a lot of manufacturing capability.

That said, I have an original Sterling and a 180B.




They are both very reliable and reasonably accurate. The original is a 1/12 barrel, just like yours, so you can't shoot anything heavier than 55 gr.

They are not any more reliable than my ArmaLite M15s but the M15s have been 100 percent so you can't get any more reliable than that.

As for modified AR mags, too hit and miss. Just get the factory 20 rounders from Numrich.
MuRDoC  [Member]
1/29/2008 11:20:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By par0thead151:
I am a bit disenfranchised with the AR platform as i had my brand new bushmaster lock up on me, the bolt was all but fused to the upper and would only move with extreme pressure/force.
im wondering what the most reliable rifle chambered in 5.56 is?
hopefully it takes Ar mags as i am heavily invested in the 5.56 cal, and Ar mags.


what do you mean fused? could be ammo related, not the rifles fault


yea, ok, it was a bushy, so what
GiggleSmith  [Member]
1/29/2008 11:46:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Copperjacket:
Remington Model 700 VTR...mine has never failed to cycle once!

Also as accurate as anything I own
+!1

Only to say that it was an ADL version.
Half minute accuracy with cheap ammo!
Combat_Jack  [Team Member]
1/29/2008 11:52:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By par0thead151:
I am a bit disenfranchised with the AR platform as i had my brand new bushmaster lock up on me, the bolt was all but fused to the upper and would only move with extreme pressure/force.
im wondering what the most reliable rifle chambered in 5.56 is?
hopefully it takes Ar mags as i am heavily invested in the 5.56 cal, and Ar mags.


what do you mean fused? could be ammo related, not the rifles fault


yea, ok, it was a bushy, so what


I forget what causes that but I had it in a DPMS/CMMG one time. Something wasn't right.
HiramRanger  [Life Member]
1/30/2008 3:30:49 AM EST
Numrich, in NY state mind you, will not ship NYers AR-18 mags - which I think would all be fucking pre-ban! The floorplates are marked AR-18 for God's sake! That rifle was out of production long before the federal ban.
Generand  [Member]
1/30/2008 8:58:30 AM EST
IMI Galil (not the current ORF ones). Galil is to .223 (NOT .308) as Uzi is to 9mm. Eats everyting I feed it steel or brass without a hiccup.
LARRYG  [Team Member]
1/30/2008 9:31:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Numrich, in NY state mind you, will not ship NYers AR-18 mags - which I think would all be fucking pre-ban! The floorplates are marked AR-18 for God's sake! That rifle was out of production long before the federal ban.


And Numrich is in NY, which makes it even more insane.
HiramRanger  [Life Member]
1/30/2008 1:27:56 PM EST
I'm going to have to get somebody out of state to place an order for a perfectly legal product and ship it to me, costing me extra time and money. Un-fucking-believable! If I can find another source I will. These same people told me years ago they could not sell me a lower receiver because their FFL only allowed them to sell to other dealers, not to customers off the street. What a fucking load of horseshit, they might not WANT to sell to customers off the street, but that is a FAR cry from their license not allowing them to. You have to wonder after awhile, who our real enemies are. The liberals who wish to take your rights away, or the industry that won't even do what they legally can for the public.

By the way, this was after I called in advance to see if they had the lowers in stock, took an afternoon off from work, drove down there and was told no... after I asked when I called in the morning if I could come down and by some and was told yes. I got a letter from the president of the company and it included a free telephone sized catalog... you know, in case I wanted to order one of the many products they won't sell me...

OK, rant off
theBUBBAMANcan  [Team Member]
1/30/2008 2:32:09 PM EST
A Daewoo or a Galil (if it doesn't say Century on it).
renesis  [Team Member]
1/30/2008 6:43:51 PM EST
my vote goes to the aug I have never heard of one siezing up or failing

UZI4you  [Member]
1/30/2008 6:52:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By renesis:
my vote goes to the aug I have never heard of one siezing up or failing

www.forum-auto.com/uploads/200402/ziriako_1075914832_steyr_aug__small_.jpg


+1

I would say AUG and the HK93
chewbacca  [Team Member]
1/30/2008 7:01:36 PM EST
most bolt guns and single shots are 223 chambered and I have seen both choke on 556.

The most reliable 223/556 I have ever seen is Colt Ar15.
Dave_Markowitz  [Team Member]
2/3/2008 11:26:22 AM EST
If you can find one, it's awfully hard to beat an Arsenal SA M5:







Stick with the Bulgarian mags and it's good to go.

(It came with a brake, I put on a Bulgie-style flash hider instead. I also replaced the original "NATO" stock with a Combloc-length stock, since I have short arms.)
PAPPYO  [Member]
2/3/2008 4:22:29 PM EST
I think something on the AK design. Sig or an upper end AK, maybe the XCR. I do like AR's but, I honestly believe there are rifles a bit more dependable with less maintainance.
dogbert4-1  [Member]
2/4/2008 10:35:38 PM EST
My favorite right now is the Sig556, but whatever yours is, if it takes AR mags, get some Mapuls. Your magazine choice is what will probably be the biggest determination in the dependability of your rifle.

Speaking of Magpul, I wish they'd do some more work for Sig. I would like to see them make a complete furniture/rail/sight set for the 556! If Sig does this in conjunction with Magpul, look the F out!
Henny  [Team Member]
2/4/2008 11:11:33 PM EST
Just one question, did you lube your Bushmaster before using it? Were you running it dry? If you lubed it properly, what were you using? If you want something that will take AR mags, well I'd have to say the AR is very reliable!

Do yourself a favor, get some CLP, oil that bolt / bolt carrier up and try your rifle again!
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