AR15.Com Archives
 Colt Match Target HBAR versus Bushmaster A2 Target
CRC  [Team Member]
7/4/2002 2:51:42 PM EST
I was wondering how the Colt Match Target HBAR Semi-Automatic Rifle compared to the Bushmaster XM-15 E2S AS Standard 20" Target model and vice versa? I'm not interested in price more parts, craftsmanship,shooting ability, quality and such stuff. Any information is appriciated. I've narrowed my 1st AR-type rifle purchase down to these two rifles. I live in North Carolina so there are no assault weapon laws to contend with. It's perfectly legal for me to own either. Again thanks and remember all who sacrificed for us this July 4th 2002. CRC
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maxell27  [Member]
7/4/2002 6:27:46 PM EST
Get the Bushmaster.

Parts and quality are better than factory colt's nowadays. Remember that they have the funky large front pivot or the oversized firecontrol pins. This sucks.

You also get better customer service from bushmaster and it is very close to military specifications.

Rockriver arms also makes very good rifles as well.

Max
shotar  [Team Member]
7/4/2002 8:14:37 PM EST
Oh man, You did it now! You may as well have asked if you should get an AR or AK. I'll jump in with Bushmaster anyway. I could have bought either for the same price but really liked the Bushy logo better. All other things are pretty much equal.
ColtRifle  [Member]
7/5/2002 4:23:21 AM EST
Go with the Colt. Top of the line quality. Of course you're going to pay more for the name. If you want to save a little money go with the Bushmaster.
5subslr5  [Team Member]
7/5/2002 6:10:17 AM EST
I'm too sorry to go check to be sure but don't both of the rifles you mention have carry-handles ??

(If that answer is yes, do you plan to just shoot with iron sights ??)
Boomer  [Team Member]
7/5/2002 6:45:42 AM EST
I'd go with the Colt. Colt magnetic particle tests their bolts and bolt carriers so you can be assured that they will be free from internal defects. The rest of the parts are probably more or less equivelant between the two manufacturers, but Colt does seem to have higher quality standards. The only detractions of the Colt would be if you happen to get one that uses the plastic buffer and plastic buttstock plate/trap door. But even these parts provide reliable service and are easily replaced if one desires to do so.

Bushmaster has ongoing problems with

A) Improperly indexed barrels, necessitating excesive windage adjustment to sight in and zero the weapon

B) Occasional improperly staked or loose gas keys, causing functional problems

C) Bushmaster lower receivers do not accept all commonly available magazines

There was also a recent report of a new Bushmaster with a grossly and dangerously oversized chamber.

It is commonly suggested that Bushmasters need 200-500 rounds fired through them to "break them in" and get them to feed and function properly. None of my Colts have ever required this.

I guess you need to decide what is more important to you; The diameter of a given weapon's trigger pins that you will probably never mess with, or whether or not the weapon is likely to function properly and shoot straight. I tend to prioritize the latter which is why my needs demand a Colt.
SPECTRE  [Team Member]
7/5/2002 10:07:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By Boomer:
I'd go with the Colt. Colt magnetic particle tests their bolts and bolt carriers so you can be assured that they will be free from internal defects. The rest of the parts are probably more or less equivelant between the two manufacturers, but Colt does seem to have higher quality standards. The only detractions of the Colt would be if you happen to get one that uses the plastic buffer and plastic buttstock plate/trap door. But even these parts provide reliable service and are easily replaced if one desires to do so.

Bushmaster has ongoing problems with

A) Improperly indexed barrels, necessitating excesive windage adjustment to sight in and zero the weapon

B) Occasional improperly staked or loose gas keys, causing functional problems

C) Bushmaster lower receivers do not accept all commonly available magazines

There was also a recent report of a new Bushmaster with a grossly and dangerously oversized chamber.

It is commonly suggested that Bushmasters need 200-500 rounds fired through them to "break them in" and get them to feed and function properly. None of my Colts have ever required this.

I guess you need to decide what is more important to you; The diameter of a given weapon's trigger pins that you will probably never mess with, or whether or not the weapon is likely to function properly and shoot straight. I tend to prioritize the latter which is why my needs demand a Colt.



Well lets see, "I'd go with the colt" like we would expect any less from you. "Colt magnetic particle tests their bolts and bolt carriers so you can be assured that they will be free from internal defects." So does Bushmaster, read the catalog or call them.
"The rest of the parts are probably more or less equivelant between the two manufacturers" agreed.
"Colt does seem to have higher quality standards"on assembly, ok, maybe, but the actual parts themselves are pretty much equal.
As far as the bushy issues, yes they have barrel indexing issues that they still can't figure how to fix. The staking on the gas key is rare and IIRC, I remember reading posts about a colt doing the same thing.
"C) Bushmaster lower receivers do not accept all commonly available magazines" HUH ??? I have never had a problem with any mag in any of my bushys. I have not needed any "break in period" to make my rifles work right either. And lets not leave out those cool PC sear blocks.
The new colts and blue labels are nowhere near the quality of the older rifles. I had a blue label and sold it and bought a green label, not even close on the quality between them. I just looked over the new "M4" colt is selling now (you know, the "poser" M4 with that soda can on the muzzle) at my local shop and its nothing special. Sure, it does say "M4" on it in little letters right under the big "match target" but hey, it says M4 huh.
My needs, expectations and standards are no different than yours. I expect that my weapons function out of the box, and they have. All of my AR's, whether they are bushys, colts, RRA or DPMS have worked just fine.


BobCole  [Team Member]
7/5/2002 10:15:52 AM EST
I too debated on which to buy when I bought my AR. While the Bushmaster may indeed be true mil-spec, so what? I have no plans to change anything. One could also probaly find owners with both who were either very very happy or very very mad.

I finally based my decision on that I had a Colt in the Marine Corps & knew how good it was & that the Colt has a higher resale value (not that I would ever sell it).

I got the Colt model 6601, their standard A@ config with iron sights & carry handle. I've never had the first problem with anything with it.
My .o2
CRC  [Team Member]
7/5/2002 12:29:26 PM EST
Thanks guys! Yes both models are fixed handle because I would like to learn open sights. I shot open sights on my .22 before I added a Weaver scope to it. I do shoot open sights on some of my rifles (no ars). I'm not too good with irons so I'd really like to practice with them and maybe add a scope later. Again thanks for the information. It sounds like both guns are excellent and it just depends on which company you like more. If I had enough money I'd buy one of each but it took me a long time just to save up to buy one AR. CRC
Boomer  [Team Member]
7/5/2002 10:03:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
Well lets see, "I'd go with the colt" like we would expect any less from you. "Colt magnetic particle tests their bolts and bolt carriers so you can be assured that they will be free from internal defects." So does Bushmaster, read the catalog or call them.



I stand corrected.



As far as the bushy issues, yes they have barrel indexing issues that they still can't figure how to fix. The staking on the gas key is rare and IIRC, I remember reading posts about a colt doing the same thing.



There are still many more problems reported about malfunctioning Bushmasters than there are about malfunctionong Colts.



HUH ??? I have never had a problem with any mag in any of my bushys.



Certain Thermold and Orlite magazines do not work in Bushmaster rifles. This has been discussed here at great length in the past.



I have not needed any "break in period" to make my rifles work right either.



I happen to disagree with an AR15 needing a break in period, too. I'm simply refering to what has been and is told to many new Bushmaster owners who are experiencing problems with their rifles.



And lets not leave out those cool PC sear blocks.



While an unnecessary and undesireable addition, they do not in any way affect, inhibit, or compromise the weapons basic semi-automatic function or reliability.



The new colts and blue labels are nowhere near the quality of the older rifles.



That is purely a matter of personal opinion. I'm quite happy with my pre-ban Blue Labels and single post-ban Colt. Quality-wise and performance-wise, I'd stack them up against any AR. Many people feel that the gray finish of the Blue Label guns was the best AR finish ever, too.



I had a blue label and sold it and bought a green label, not even close on the quality between them.



Funny, my Green Label and Blue Label guns are pretty much equal in terms of build quality and performance.



I just looked over the new "M4" colt is selling now (you know, the "poser" M4 with that soda can on the muzzle) at my local shop and its nothing special. Sure, it does say "M4" on it in little letters right under the big "match target" but hey, it says M4 huh.



I like their newest carbine. If it is anything like my MT6731, it's darn near flawless and well worth the money.



My needs, expectations and standards are no different than yours. I expect that my weapons function out of the box, and they have. All of my AR's, whether they are bushys, colts, RRA or DPMS have worked just fine.



Too bad not all of our fellow members can say that about their off brand ARs. The proof is all around us.

There is only one brand of AR15 built by a company with decades of experience developing, evolving, and refining the system into what it is today and that is the most likely to function properly right out of the box. And that brand is Colt.
ColonelKlink  [Team Member]
7/5/2002 10:07:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Boomer:

C) Bushmaster lower receivers do not accept all commonly available magazines




BULLSHIT, I have two thermolds and they function just as well as my USGI's
ColonelKlink  [Team Member]
7/5/2002 10:09:21 PM EST
Boomer, colts rifles still use different sized non-spec pins.
ColonelKlink  [Team Member]
7/5/2002 10:13:51 PM EST
Oh yeah, bushmasters website also says that with chrome lined barrels break-in procedures are counter-productive.
www.bushmaster.com/faqs/barrels-accuracy.asp#Q.%20What%20is%20the%20proper%20"break-in"%20procedure%20for%20a%20chrome%20lined%20AR%20barrel?
Boomer  [Team Member]
7/5/2002 10:17:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By ColonelKlink:

Originally Posted By Boomer:

C) Bushmaster lower receivers do not accept all commonly available magazines




BULLSHIT, I have two thermolds and they function just as well as my USGI's



What lot number are they?
Boomer  [Team Member]
7/5/2002 10:19:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By ColonelKlink:
Boomer, Colts rifles still use different sized non-spec pins.



True, they use larger diameter trigger pins. They also still go bang every time. I've yet to have to replace any of the fire control parts on any of my AR15s and if I did have to, both sizes are readily available. So your point is?
Boomer  [Team Member]
7/5/2002 10:23:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By ColonelKlink:
Oh yeah, bushmasters website also says that with chrome lined barrels break-in procedures are counter-productive.
www.bushmaster.com/faqs/barrels-accuracy.asp#Q.%20What%20is%20the%20proper%20"break-in"%20procedure%20for%20a%20chrome%20lined%20AR%20barrel?



Barrel break in is not what is being discussed. In the past it has been commonly, and perhaps erroneously, suggested that the various moving parts in an AR15 have to be allowed a period in which to break in with each other. It seems that more often than not this advice has been offered to the owners of new Bushmasters who where experiencing various problems.
killingmachine123  [Team Member]
7/7/2002 4:56:28 PM EST
I have a colt and a bushmaster. I would go for the bushmaster though, as it would be cheaper. I don't think that there is too much of a quality difference.
Glock31  [Team Member]
7/7/2002 5:13:09 PM EST
Go with the Colt. I've put 3000 rounds through mine so far, and the only problem i've had is with the mags it came with. A guy at the range handed me a USGI to try, and it ran perfect with it.
Grock  [Team Member]
7/7/2002 5:32:47 PM EST
I also have a Colt (20"HBAR) and a Bushmaster (M4gery). Both are excellent machines. Both are very well made, but, I would give the edge in the "fit and finish" category to Colt.
I had them both out yesterday, ran hundreds of rounds through both. I really enjoy the sub-MOA accuracy of the Colt MT6601 20"HBAR,(it has a harris bipod, and 3-10x44 scope...), and the light weight, and balance of the M4gery.

CB1  [Team Member]
7/8/2002 1:25:05 PM EST
I have a Colt MT6601 and a BM "shorty" 16in. Quality wise, both are great. color? my Colt is the Colt gray/grey<?> finish. the BM is half black and half purple. Both shoot as good/bad as I shoot. any jams? nope, mag problems? nope, FTF? nope, FTE? nope.
cost? the Colt was $900 and the BM was $730. Which is better? I dont know.
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