Archived Posts » 59,789,155
Why do YOU use night vision devices and lasers together?
12/17/2011 8:57:50 AM
Twice I have had articles published in SWAT. I am working on another on the DBAL I2 Class 1. As its capabilities are best exploited with a NOD, I'm looking for reasons regular folks use these together: hunting, training, whatever. Part of the article will deal with Agent Wu, et. al. and the view that mere citizens have no need, in his/their view, for such devices. Part will deal with the growing pains Laser Devices has had with the DBAL I2 Class 1.
Folks in this sub-forum are probably the best source of info on this matter. Your input is appreciated.
Folks in this sub-forum are probably the best source of info on this matter. Your input is appreciated.
12/17/2011 9:10:33 AM
Safety would be one thing to address IMO. Being able to see where people are pointing their rifles can be useful... Especially when you only have a 40 degree FOV and they are not in your view.
Method of aiming - basic but pretty important. It would assist when you need a quick follow-up shot.
Inability to easily switch between monocular and riflescope is another.
Just three that come to mind for everyday practical use.
David
12/17/2011 9:54:14 AM
Another point on safety is that mounting a laser on the weapon precludes the need for mounting a NVD on the weapon for those unfortunate folks who only have one device. This helps to keep folks from muzzle sweeping in order to look around.
After having watched an M16 mag dump when the bolt was dropped [due to a popped primer lodged in the FCG] without a finger anywhere near the trigger (and the experienced shooter astutely having the muzzle pointed downrange and keeping it there), muzzle discipline is even more important than trigger discipline.
Lasers also seem more recoil tolerant than some NVDs.
After having watched an M16 mag dump when the bolt was dropped [due to a popped primer lodged in the FCG] without a finger anywhere near the trigger (and the experienced shooter astutely having the muzzle pointed downrange and keeping it there), muzzle discipline is even more important than trigger discipline.
Lasers also seem more recoil tolerant than some NVDs.
12/17/2011 2:08:05 PM
Because its way easier to sit in a lawn chair in the back of a truck and aim with the rifle on your lap than hold a 12 pound rifle up to your shoulder and look through a PVS14.
12/17/2011 5:08:51 PM
Originally Posted By Submariner:
I am working on another on the DBAL I2 Class 1. As its capabilities are best exploited with a NOD, I'm looking for reasons regular folks use these together: hunting, training, whatever.
I am working on another on the DBAL I2 Class 1. As its capabilities are best exploited with a NOD, I'm looking for reasons regular folks use these together: hunting, training, whatever.
Hunting is pretty common. Many animals, especially here in Texas are best hunted at night and night hunting is legal. Using an IR/NOD is far superior than trying to use white light.
12/17/2011 6:01:14 PM
Originally Posted By Submariner:
Twice I have had articles published in SWAT. I am working on another on the DBAL I2 Class 1. As its capabilities are best exploited with a NOD, I'm looking for reasons regular folks use these together: hunting, training, whatever. Part of the article will deal with Agent Wu, et. al. and the view that mere citizens have no need, in his/their view, for such devices. Part will deal with the growing pains Laser Devices has had with the DBAL I2 Class 1.
Folks in this sub-forum are probably the best source of info on this matter. Your input is appreciated.
Twice I have had articles published in SWAT. I am working on another on the DBAL I2 Class 1. As its capabilities are best exploited with a NOD, I'm looking for reasons regular folks use these together: hunting, training, whatever. Part of the article will deal with Agent Wu, et. al. and the view that mere citizens have no need, in his/their view, for such devices. Part will deal with the growing pains Laser Devices has had with the DBAL I2 Class 1.
Folks in this sub-forum are probably the best source of info on this matter. Your input is appreciated.
I wouldn't know Agent Wu if I bumped into him and the opinion "that mere citizens have no need" mainly holds water with those who view the government as superior to the citizens. Why not take a different perspective on the NOD and raise the question from the view that the technology enables the citizens who paid the taxes for the technology's development to:
- Hunt hogs, coyotes and other nocturnal vermin more effectively than they can without the technology.
- Insure the safety requirement of knowing what you are shooting at before you take the shot is upheld.
- Be aware of the diversity of wild life out in the woods and the fields at night.
- Understand American exceptionalism in the form of this technology that provides an important edge in combat for our military.
With regard to IR lasers, the specious argument that unless tightly regulated they will pose a health hazard of potentially blinding people goes back to the premise "the government knows what is best for everyone" and has been proven to be an empty bogeyman with regard to concealed carry and "assault weapons". Given the Obama "Fast and Furious" and Solyndra scandals, perhaps it's time to suggest the burden of "transparency" should be on the government to PROVE the need of new restrictions?
12/17/2011 6:04:53 PM
toys for the rich, don't forget
12/17/2011 9:00:02 PM
Really?!?
12/17/2011 9:06:14 PM
Originally Posted By Barliman:
I wouldn't know Agent Wu if I bumped into him and the opinion "that mere citizens have no need" mainly holds water with those who view the government as superior to the citizens. Why not take a different perspective on the NOD and raise the question from the view that the technology enables the citizens who paid the taxes for the technology's development to:
With regard to IR lasers, the specious argument that unless tightly regulated they will pose a health hazard of potentially blinding people goes back to the premise "the government knows what is best for everyone" and has been proven to be an empty bogeyman with regard to concealed carry and "assault weapons". Given the Obama "Fast and Furious" and Solyndra scandals, perhaps it's time to suggest the burden of "transparency" should be on the government to PROVE the need of new restrictions?
Originally Posted By Submariner:
Twice I have had articles published in SWAT. I am working on another on the DBAL I2 Class 1. As its capabilities are best exploited with a NOD, I'm looking for reasons regular folks use these together: hunting, training, whatever. Part of the article will deal with Agent Wu, et. al. and the view that mere citizens have no need, in his/their view, for such devices. Part will deal with the growing pains Laser Devices has had with the DBAL I2 Class 1.
Folks in this sub-forum are probably the best source of info on this matter. Your input is appreciated.
Twice I have had articles published in SWAT. I am working on another on the DBAL I2 Class 1. As its capabilities are best exploited with a NOD, I'm looking for reasons regular folks use these together: hunting, training, whatever. Part of the article will deal with Agent Wu, et. al. and the view that mere citizens have no need, in his/their view, for such devices. Part will deal with the growing pains Laser Devices has had with the DBAL I2 Class 1.
Folks in this sub-forum are probably the best source of info on this matter. Your input is appreciated.
I wouldn't know Agent Wu if I bumped into him and the opinion "that mere citizens have no need" mainly holds water with those who view the government as superior to the citizens. Why not take a different perspective on the NOD and raise the question from the view that the technology enables the citizens who paid the taxes for the technology's development to:
- Hunt hogs, coyotes and other nocturnal vermin more effectively than they can without the technology.
- Insure the safety requirement of knowing what you are shooting at before you take the shot is upheld.
- Be aware of the diversity of wild life out in the woods and the fields at night.
- Understand American exceptionalism in the form of this technology that provides an important edge in combat for our military.
With regard to IR lasers, the specious argument that unless tightly regulated they will pose a health hazard of potentially blinding people goes back to the premise "the government knows what is best for everyone" and has been proven to be an empty bogeyman with regard to concealed carry and "assault weapons". Given the Obama "Fast and Furious" and Solyndra scandals, perhaps it's time to suggest the burden of "transparency" should be on the government to PROVE the need of new restrictions?
Spoke with Agent Wu privately via IM and private e-mail on this site and another night vision forum. He comes across as a guy looking to get stolen gear back for our troops which I fully support. Then there is that shady area which he kind of avoids and tries to redirect. See, even if it is not "stolen" but has got into the market via MANY other methods it is deemed technically "stolen or illegal" because of a variance stating that ALL these units are to be destroyed once the military or LEO departments are done with them.
Now if DRMO messed up and you have a receipt you are GTG. You can legally purchase lasers from LEO or other means and they can still be confiscated because of the FDA variance issue. So, while your laser may not be technically stolen Agent Wu will still take it and won't give it back unless you can spend thousands to fight him in federal court. Agent Wu does not like to talk about this area of the law and prefers to be seen as only the good guy after "stolen" gear from our troops.
Noble cause but he is not telling the entire truth. We had a heated argument over this technicality. Even if you import one from another country (they are sold to MANY military's around the world) they can still take it because it violates FDA import regulations. Agent Wu is not a terrible guy but he does not want ANY of you guys to have high powered IR lasers. Don't be fooled and make no mistake about it !!
If you have one ?? Don't talk about it is my advice. I hate to see anything stolen from our troops. I also hate it when big brother steps in over some bullshit laws to keep useful gear that WE ALL paid for out of the hands of citizens who can use it for peaceful purposes such as hunting.
Yes, high power IR lasers can be dangerous. My car is dangerous too if I use it like a retard. This is why we have testing and licenses for products that can be harmful. Agent Wu does not seem to grasp this and we do not get along very well because of this difference of opinion.
12/17/2011 9:29:28 PM
I'm trying to understand the complaints about high power IR lasers not being available to civilians. I have a UniMax Class 1 and it is good out past 175 yards. For coyotes and hogs, I cannot imagine what you could need more power for.
Is someone out there trying to make 500 yard shots at hogs, at night
Is someone out there trying to make 500 yard shots at hogs, at night
12/17/2011 9:52:41 PM
Originally Posted By NAK:
I'm trying to understand the complaints about high power IR lasers not being available to civilians. I have a UniMax Class 1 and it is good out past 175 yards. For coyotes and hogs, I cannot imagine what you could need more power for.
Is someone out there trying to make 500 yard shots at hogs, at night
I'm trying to understand the complaints about high power IR lasers not being available to civilians. I have a UniMax Class 1 and it is good out past 175 yards. For coyotes and hogs, I cannot imagine what you could need more power for.
Is someone out there trying to make 500 yard shots at hogs, at night
If you have used both you will understand the difference. Tragically mine was lost in a boating accident but if I had one I would tell you I most often use it on low power. .07 MW is a little weak for me. 5mw would be perfect and all I would need for aiming. My biggest use for the high power is for an illuminator at long ranges and for a pointer.
I don't hog hunt but I know the guys that do really like and need the extra power. The Civvy legal ones work fine but if you ask around and people speak truthfully they will all tell you they would like a little more power. 5mw would be great for an aiming device but a good illuminator needs much more power.
I like the option to have power when I need it and to dial it down when I don't.
12/17/2011 10:09:30 PM
Originally Posted By Dino1130:
If you have used both you will understand the difference. Tragically mine was lost in a boating accident but if I had one I would tell you I most often use it on low power. .07 MW is a little weak for me. 5mw would be perfect and all I would need for aiming. My biggest use for the high power is for an illuminator at long ranges and for a pointer.
I don't hog hunt but I know the guys that do really like and need the extra power. The Civvy legal ones work fine but if you ask around and people speak truthfully they will all tell you they would like a little more power. 5mw would be great for an aiming device but a good illuminator needs much more power.
Originally Posted By NAK:
I'm trying to understand the complaints about high power IR lasers not being available to civilians. I have a UniMax Class 1 and it is good out past 175 yards. For coyotes and hogs, I cannot imagine what you could need more power for.
Is someone out there trying to make 500 yard shots at hogs, at night
I'm trying to understand the complaints about high power IR lasers not being available to civilians. I have a UniMax Class 1 and it is good out past 175 yards. For coyotes and hogs, I cannot imagine what you could need more power for.
Is someone out there trying to make 500 yard shots at hogs, at night
If you have used both you will understand the difference. Tragically mine was lost in a boating accident but if I had one I would tell you I most often use it on low power. .07 MW is a little weak for me. 5mw would be perfect and all I would need for aiming. My biggest use for the high power is for an illuminator at long ranges and for a pointer.
I don't hog hunt but I know the guys that do really like and need the extra power. The Civvy legal ones work fine but if you ask around and people speak truthfully they will all tell you they would like a little more power. 5mw would be great for an aiming device but a good illuminator needs much more power.
I like the option to have power when I need it and to dial it down when I don't
.
Thats it in a nutshell, very well said...
12/18/2011 8:29:44 AM
Originally Posted By Dino1130:
If you have used both you will understand the difference. Tragically mine was lost in a boating accident but if I had one I would tell you I most often use it on low power. .07 MW is a little weak for me. 5mw would be perfect and all I would need for aiming. My biggest use for the high power is for an illuminator at long ranges and for a pointer.
I don't hog hunt but I know the guys that do really like and need the extra power. The Civvy legal ones work fine but if you ask around and people speak truthfully they will all tell you they would like a little more power. 5mw would be great for an aiming device but a good illuminator needs much more power.
If you have used both you will understand the difference. Tragically mine was lost in a boating accident but if I had one I would tell you I most often use it on low power. .07 MW is a little weak for me. 5mw would be perfect and all I would need for aiming. My biggest use for the high power is for an illuminator at long ranges and for a pointer.
I don't hog hunt but I know the guys that do really like and need the extra power. The Civvy legal ones work fine but if you ask around and people speak truthfully they will all tell you they would like a little more power. 5mw would be great for an aiming device but a good illuminator needs much more power.
LDI has increased the IR laser strength on the DBAL I2 Class 1 to 0.7mW; the visible laser is 5.0 mW. Sadly, there is no illuminator.
12/18/2011 10:17:09 AM
Besides the issues with battery drain & the lack of an iluminator - the LDI unit was a great idea in theory. Upping the IR pointer a bit helped but as stated it is hard to have a 500hp muscle car then have it taken away form you for your own safety & replaced with a Mazda 323
12/18/2011 12:23:47 PM
Sorry, who is Agent Wu? JBT that posts on the forums?
12/18/2011 12:32:46 PM
Agent with DHS. They want the stolen Gov't property recovered which I can't blame them if its stolen - the real issue is looking to be more about gray market units & if private citizens can legally own them. The argument is anybody willing to pay around 2k for a full power unit is not goanna run around blinding people ( they should know the dangers being that they know what it is in the first place). the other side of that is the Mfg's don't sell the units to private citizens. It gets complicated...
12/18/2011 3:18:20 PM
Agent Wu's stock is likely sourced from a nation that looks at citizens as subjects of the state. I would venture to guess Agent Wu drives a large SUV or fast sports car which in his mind should be not for the common citizen as neither are needed and are a sign of excess.
Do as I say, not as I do.
Do as I say, not as I do.12/18/2011 8:08:33 PM
Originally Posted By systemofadown:
Agent with DHS. They want the stolen Gov't property recovered which I can't blame them if its stolen - the real issue is looking to be more about gray market units & if private citizens can legally own them. The argument is anybody willing to pay around 2k for a full power unit is not goanna run around blinding people ( they should know the dangers being that they know what it is in the first place). the other side of that is the Mfg's don't sell the units to private citizens. It gets complicated...
Agent with DHS. They want the stolen Gov't property recovered which I can't blame them if its stolen - the real issue is looking to be more about gray market units & if private citizens can legally own them. The argument is anybody willing to pay around 2k for a full power unit is not goanna run around blinding people ( they should know the dangers being that they know what it is in the first place). the other side of that is the Mfg's don't sell the units to private citizens. It gets complicated...
Actually I did a little research and you can get a much more powerful IR laser that is of far more danger than the relatively low-powered rifle-mounted lasers they are chasing... Probably for a hundred dollars or less. And the US government is not touching them at all. In fact, there are detailed descriptions that have been published by the US government on how to weaponise such lasers to achieve effects ranging from setting bases on fire through to bringing down aircraft ( Military aircraft in particular ) at ranges exceeding 10 miles.
Such equipment is readily available, cheap enough for anyone to purchase and make and is completely unrestricted and can be purchased by anyone. Off Ebay or even just off the shelf.
From what I can tell, the only lasers they are going after are the ones that attach to rifles. Nothing else matters. I have some theories about that which would probably rate a 10 on the tinfoil-hat scale so I'll keep them to myself...
But for the record, how many instances of such devices being actually made and used have been recorded? Nil. Well, not entirely true. They were actually made and used for other purposes which I won't go into detail on because some things are better left obscure, but it's not like people are actually creating, building or using such weapons anywhere in the world.
Though of course, there's this famous incident - http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=1775 - This is widely believed to be the catalyst for the current concerns, since it was the first attempted attack on the US
But by terrorists? Nil...
But it's good to see that the US government is doing it's bit to protect the free world from $2000 5mW lasers... While these $100 lasers are freely available to anyone: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=industrial+ir+lasers&_sacat=53141&_dmd=1&_odkw=&_osacat=53141&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313 are still available today, will likely always be available, have no realistic controls on them anywhere in the world and come up at nice power ratings of around 4000mW... And that would be before they were weaponised ( costs about $100 to weaponise a laser, based on US government research estimates )
Whatever the real motivation is for stopping people from owning legitimate rifle-based lasers, the enforcement is haphazard, the reasons are moot and the intent is questionable.
And there are very real reasons to allow reasonable safe 5mW rifle-mounted lasers in Night Vision while there is almost no good reason for members of the general public to own very dangerous 4000mW lasers such as the above.
Regards
David
David
p.s. They banned pointer lasers in Australia a couple of years ago. Mainly because people were shining them at helicopters and aircraft. FWIW, it did stop the attacks pretty much. Lasers were getting to the point that for $50 someone could buy a reasonably powerful laser and use it as a toy... The point is, unless people are abusing the situation, there is no need for legislation. AFAIK, no one is abusing the situation with IR NV lasers in the US. Or ever has.
edit: Just a minor clarification...
12/18/2011 10:22:32 PM
Zombies.
12/19/2011 9:07:39 AM
[/div][div]But it's good to see that the US government is doing it's bit to protect the free world from $2000 5mW lasers... While these $100 lasers are freely available to anyone: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=industrial+ir+lasers&_sacat=53141&_dmd=1&_odkw=&_osacat=53141&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313 are still available today, will likely always be available, have no realistic controls on them anywhere in the world and come up at nice power ratings of around 4000mW... And that would be before they were weaponised ( costs about $100 to weaponise a laser, based on US government research estimates )[/div][div]
So David, could the above referenced unit be "unfocused" enough to become a golf cart based long range (1500 yard) illuminator?
12/19/2011 10:02:18 AM
Originally Posted By Tri-C:
[/div][div]But it's good to see that the US government is doing it's bit to protect the free world from $2000 5mW lasers... While these $100 lasers are freely available to anyone: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=industrial+ir+lasers&_sacat=53141&_dmd=1&_odkw=&_osacat=53141&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313 are still available today, will likely always be available, have no realistic controls on them anywhere in the world and come up at nice power ratings of around 4000mW... And that would be before they were weaponised ( costs about $100 to weaponise a laser, based on US government research estimates )[/div][div]
So David, could the above referenced unit be "unfocused" enough to become a golf cart based long range (1500 yard) illuminator?
Sure, but it would still be dangerous... There's just too much power. Up close, even unfocused, it would present a hazard to the user. It would need special OD4@980nm goggles to use safely even diffused and even then, would probably be of questionably legality even in the UK.
[div][/div][div]But it's good to see that the US government is doing it's bit to protect the free world from $2000 5mW lasers... While these $100 lasers are freely available to anyone: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=industrial+ir+lasers&_sacat=53141&_dmd=1&_odkw=&_osacat=53141&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313 are still available today, will likely always be available, have no realistic controls on them anywhere in the world and come up at nice power ratings of around 4000mW... And that would be before they were weaponised ( costs about $100 to weaponise a laser, based on US government research estimates )[/div][div]
So David, could the above referenced unit be "unfocused" enough to become a golf cart based long range (1500 yard) illuminator?
The sort of lasers that the Military use on rifles could be misused, but to be honest, it would be difficult to effectively weaponise them. You would have to get far too close to the target and need some way of aiming it suitably, I mean, you can't exactly wear NV goggles while hiding in a crowd can you?. It would do limited damage, would be immediately apparent to the victim ( who would hear a popping sound and could easily be trained to recognize the early symptoms ) would be plainly visible to anyone with a camera-phone or NV gear and whoever tried it would almost certainly be caught if they chose a high profile target.[/div] [div]
You don't even need NV gear to detect them: http://www.jetlasers.net/jetlasers-ir-detection-cards-980nm-1064nm.html - You can even build this stuff into glasses so you would see someone aiming a laser. In fact, wearing appropriate filter glasses will protect your entirely, can be made to detect the laser and on top of that make you look cool ! Even easier than a bullet-proof jacket. The old-russian anti-Gen0 riflescopes worked this way - you charged them with UV during the day and at night, they would see an enemy IR riflescope in the dark - early counter-NV technology.[/div] [div]
As a weapon? Even a poorly trained marksman would do better than using a laser. Damaging someone's eyesight is malicious, but it's not certain even how effective that would be. Damage isn't absolute and it may heal. It might have some psychological impact, but as weapons go it's not really a good choice. It would take a fairly powerful industrial laser to make any sort of realistic weapon. Read the earlier link I posted. That guy had his eyesight damaged but still flew home.
[/div] [div]David
[/div] [div]note: Zombies, LoL!... No, it wasn't zombies, though I have noticed a strong similarity in footage of very hungry people to zombies.[/div] [div]
[/div]
12/19/2011 10:42:13 AM
Sadly it seems a lost cause, not enough people interested in the issue to get anything changed regarding the full power units. LDI has the civi units so the public says hey you have another option so be happy
It looks to be a cat (Gov't) & mouse (private citizen) game that will never end - nor really gain any public interest..........
It looks to be a cat (Gov't) & mouse (private citizen) game that will never end - nor really gain any public interest..........12/19/2011 11:42:37 AM
Originally Posted By Barliman:
I wouldn't know Agent Wu if I bumped into him and the opinion "that mere citizens have no need" mainly holds water with those who view the government as superior to the citizens. Why not take a different perspective on the NOD and raise the question from the view that the technology enables the citizens who paid the taxes for the technology's development to:
With regard to IR lasers, the specious argument that unless tightly regulated they will pose a health hazard of potentially blinding people goes back to the premise "the government knows what is best for everyone" and has been proven to be an empty bogeyman with regard to concealed carry and "assault weapons". Given the Obama "Fast and Furious" and Solyndra scandals, perhaps it's time to suggest the burden of "transparency" should be on the government to PROVE the need of new restrictions?
Originally Posted By Submariner:
Twice I have had articles published in SWAT. I am working on another on the DBAL I2 Class 1. As its capabilities are best exploited with a NOD, I'm looking for reasons regular folks use these together: hunting, training, whatever. Part of the article will deal with Agent Wu, et. al. and the view that mere citizens have no need, in his/their view, for such devices. Part will deal with the growing pains Laser Devices has had with the DBAL I2 Class 1.
Folks in this sub-forum are probably the best source of info on this matter. Your input is appreciated.
Twice I have had articles published in SWAT. I am working on another on the DBAL I2 Class 1. As its capabilities are best exploited with a NOD, I'm looking for reasons regular folks use these together: hunting, training, whatever. Part of the article will deal with Agent Wu, et. al. and the view that mere citizens have no need, in his/their view, for such devices. Part will deal with the growing pains Laser Devices has had with the DBAL I2 Class 1.
Folks in this sub-forum are probably the best source of info on this matter. Your input is appreciated.
I wouldn't know Agent Wu if I bumped into him and the opinion "that mere citizens have no need" mainly holds water with those who view the government as superior to the citizens. Why not take a different perspective on the NOD and raise the question from the view that the technology enables the citizens who paid the taxes for the technology's development to:
- Hunt hogs, coyotes and other nocturnal vermin more effectively than they can without the technology.
- Insure the safety requirement of knowing what you are shooting at before you take the shot is upheld.
- Be aware of the diversity of wild life out in the woods and the fields at night.
- Understand American exceptionalism in the form of this technology that provides an important edge in combat for our military.
With regard to IR lasers, the specious argument that unless tightly regulated they will pose a health hazard of potentially blinding people goes back to the premise "the government knows what is best for everyone" and has been proven to be an empty bogeyman with regard to concealed carry and "assault weapons". Given the Obama "Fast and Furious" and Solyndra scandals, perhaps it's time to suggest the burden of "transparency" should be on the government to PROVE the need of new restrictions?
Another bullet point I thought of this morning:
- Shorter engagement distance - this has three facets - higher probability of a clean kill/less suffering by the animal, improved safety since the hunter has better focus on the downrange considerations past the target, and if used with a suppressor ... the ability to engage more than one target after opening fire.
Where's hi_tech_rancher? He has a lot of practical experience and should have better input.
12/20/2011 1:34:36 PM
I use my PEQ2 for hunting.
12/20/2011 2:31:21 PM
Deleted my quote so he can edit his post.
12/20/2011 4:19:59 PM
Originally Posted By microsuck1:
I use my PEQ2 for hunting.
I use my PEQ2 for hunting.
Hey Microsuck what time is good for you for the gov.org to swing by and confiscate the PEQ?
We'd rather not do the no knock door kicking @ 4am thing but of course we can. If you have any pets please tie them up
first as we really hate shooting them and PETA is already pissed with us as is.
12/20/2011 6:29:52 PM
*sigh*... For those who came in late, there are two US government ICE special agents reading this forum every single day for any details of people who have Night Vision lasers such as the PEQ2, making a list, locating and visiting such persons and taking such items off them. This is a very real situation and these agents are NOT to be messed around with. I don't think what they are doing is very nice and may even be of questionable legality, but the agents involved are genuine, do have authority to do what they are doing and if they contact you, there is not much you can do except what they ask. One of them has been mentioned and they are confirmed as legitimate.
A number of people on this forum have already had such items confiscated.
Hence this discussion, which is for an article someone is writing, which is about whether people who use Night Vision devices have legitimate uses for such technology.
David.
12/21/2011 8:03:36 PM
Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
Hence this discussion, which is for an article someone is writing, which is about whether people who use Night Vision devices have legitimate uses for such technology.
Hence this discussion, which is for an article someone is writing, which is about whether people who use Night Vision devices have legitimate uses for such technology.
Actually, my presupposition is that the uses folks here provide are legal. I simply want a better understanding of how folks use lasers with NV and then determine if the Class 1 LDI offering will do the job.
12/21/2011 8:12:51 PM
Understood - but this is a touchy subject that is always doomed to go OT & never really get far.... its the curse of the IR laser But this is a great cause & endeavor so to get back on topic, I would say the Class 1 devices are nice - less blooming at close range than full power, & less likely to cause blindness by some jackass pointing it at someone. on the other hand the lack of an iluminator is a HUGE setback, after having one you can't forget its usefulness (the IR iff patch does not work like the nicotine patch I have found) It really depends on why each person wants one - its personal preference I guess...........
But this is a great cause & endeavor so to get back on topic, I would say the Class 1 devices are nice - less blooming at close range than full power, & less likely to cause blindness by some jackass pointing it at someone. on the other hand the lack of an iluminator is a HUGE setback, after having one you can't forget its usefulness (the IR iff patch does not work like the nicotine patch I have found) It really depends on why each person wants one - its personal preference I guess...........12/21/2011 10:13:55 PM
Originally Posted By Submariner:
Actually, my presupposition is that the uses folks here provide are legal. I simply want a better understanding of how folks use lasers with NV and then determine if the Class 1 LDI offering will do the job.
Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
Hence this discussion, which is for an article someone is writing, which is about whether people who use Night Vision devices have legitimate uses for such technology.
Hence this discussion, which is for an article someone is writing, which is about whether people who use Night Vision devices have legitimate uses for such technology.
Actually, my presupposition is that the uses folks here provide are legal. I simply want a better understanding of how folks use lasers with NV and then determine if the Class 1 LDI offering will do the job.
But in my opinion, the Class 1 lasers are not really sufficient to meet the needs of people who use lasers, but they are better than nothing.
You will likely not see the beam itself which reduces the safety aspect of it. With a Class 1, it's of use to the shooter, but not really of any use to the people around him.
And yes, it is a touchy subject. I don't think they should be banning civilian ownership and use of such valuable devices, but my opinion doesn't carry any weight.
Regards
David
12/21/2011 11:43:22 PM
This may surprise some of you, but I do not, and have never had a full power IR laser. I have a Civvie DBal i2, but i don't use it much for hog hunting because I prefer more precision. I suppose I might use it more often if it had an illuminator.
The low-powered IR still blooms and at ranges beyond 100 yards, I want magnification to place a shot. If I happen to be charged by a hog I can employ the laser with the PVS-14 on the helmet, so as to have full FOV, but day In, day out, I use a gen 3 D-740.
When I trained with TNVC in Brunswick, I found the DBal i2 to work very well, so for indoors, CQ and HD, it definitely has some utility.
The low-powered IR still blooms and at ranges beyond 100 yards, I want magnification to place a shot. If I happen to be charged by a hog I can employ the laser with the PVS-14 on the helmet, so as to have full FOV, but day In, day out, I use a gen 3 D-740.
When I trained with TNVC in Brunswick, I found the DBal i2 to work very well, so for indoors, CQ and HD, it definitely has some utility.
12/22/2011 5:13:15 PM
[span style='font-weight: bold;']Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
A number of people on this forum have already had such items confiscated.
A number of people on this forum have already had such items confiscated.
This NV forum?
Chip Lasky of TNVC recommends the Surefire White/IR LED Weaponlight in lieu of the IR flood.
Any thoughts on this as an aid to lawful use on a Class 1 IR laser?
12/22/2011 5:47:41 PM
Been there done that but anyway, I did pick up a Surefire 952 vampire - its a nice IR -White light combo but Nothing like The Iluminator on a PEQ 15 or equivalent.... Units with a built in IR laser, Iluminator & ever the Visible laser are much more compact that the Class 1 offerings, light weight, & only one battery to worry with. I think that having an IR laser, & IR flashlight as separate units is a bit cumbersome to anyone really interested.
but anyway, I did pick up a Surefire 952 vampire - its a nice IR -White light combo but Nothing like The Iluminator on a PEQ 15 or equivalent.... Units with a built in IR laser, Iluminator & ever the Visible laser are much more compact that the Class 1 offerings, light weight, & only one battery to worry with. I think that having an IR laser, & IR flashlight as separate units is a bit cumbersome to anyone really interested.12/22/2011 7:49:18 PM
Originally Posted By Submariner:
This NV forum?
Chip Lasky of TNVC recommends the Surefire White/IR LED Weaponlight in lieu of the IR flood.
Any thoughts on this as an aid to lawful use on a Class 1 IR laser?
Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
A number of people on this forum have already had such items confiscated.
A number of people on this forum have already had such items confiscated.
This NV forum?
Chip Lasky of TNVC recommends the Surefire White/IR LED Weaponlight in lieu of the IR flood.
Any thoughts on this as an aid to lawful use on a Class 1 IR laser?
Yes, it has come up on this forum before. If you search the archives you'll find a few sad tales of confiscated equipment there. Some mention of the agents names too including the one you mentioned earlier.
Anyway, Chip is a subject-matter expert on this topic and I would place considerable weighting on his advice. He knows the equipment and uses it tactically and both he and Vic are the first sources of such information I would seek out if I needed advice on lasers.
As for my opinion? I think it's useful, but alignment could be a challenge and so could limiting beam spread. It's a complicated topic, but that's not necessarily due to the change of "Laser" to "LED".
Regards
David
David
12/22/2011 8:02:12 PM
Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
But in my opinion, the Class 1 lasers are not really sufficient to meet the needs of people who use lasers, but they are better than nothing.
You will likely not see the beam itself which reduces the safety aspect of it. With a Class 1, it's of use to the shooter, but not really of any use to the people around him.
My experience is the exact opposite. I find the full power lasers are not really sufficient to meet my needs, and I would rather have nothing and go with a typical NV scope. I love the low-power units, especially on my pistol which is usually used for short-distance. Even on a rifle, I can still see it out a few hundred yards. Not having a beam is a plus, as I have no need to have others seeing what I am doing.
12/22/2011 8:14:26 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
My experience is the exact opposite. I find the full power lasers are not really sufficient to meet my needs, and I would rather have nothing and go with a typical NV scope. I love the low-power units, especially on my pistol which is usually used for short-distance. Even on a rifle, I can still see it out a few hundred yards. Not having a beam is a plus, as I have no need to have others seeing what I am doing.
Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
But in my opinion, the Class 1 lasers are not really sufficient to meet the needs of people who use lasers, but they are better than nothing.
You will likely not see the beam itself which reduces the safety aspect of it. With a Class 1, it's of use to the shooter, but not really of any use to the people around him.
My experience is the exact opposite. I find the full power lasers are not really sufficient to meet my needs, and I would rather have nothing and go with a typical NV scope. I love the low-power units, especially on my pistol which is usually used for short-distance. Even on a rifle, I can still see it out a few hundred yards. Not having a beam is a plus, as I have no need to have others seeing what I am doing.
What low power pistol unit are you using? Lasermax? Or do you have some sort of converted X400, TLR-2, M6X, etc...?
12/22/2011 8:44:20 PM
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
What low power pistol unit are you using? Lasermax? Or do you have some sort of converted X400, TLR-2, M6X, etc...?
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
My experience is the exact opposite. I find the full power lasers are not really sufficient to meet my needs, and I would rather have nothing and go with a typical NV scope. I love the low-power units, especially on my pistol which is usually used for short-distance. Even on a rifle, I can still see it out a few hundred yards. Not having a beam is a plus, as I have no need to have others seeing what I am doing.
Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
But in my opinion, the Class 1 lasers are not really sufficient to meet the needs of people who use lasers, but they are better than nothing.
You will likely not see the beam itself which reduces the safety aspect of it. With a Class 1, it's of use to the shooter, but not really of any use to the people around him.
My experience is the exact opposite. I find the full power lasers are not really sufficient to meet my needs, and I would rather have nothing and go with a typical NV scope. I love the low-power units, especially on my pistol which is usually used for short-distance. Even on a rifle, I can still see it out a few hundred yards. Not having a beam is a plus, as I have no need to have others seeing what I am doing.
What low power pistol unit are you using? Lasermax? Or do you have some sort of converted X400, TLR-2, M6X, etc...?
Yes, the Class I LaserMax unit.
12/22/2011 8:54:16 PM
Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
Yes, it has come up on this forum before. If you search the archives you'll find a few sad tales of confiscated equipment there. Some mention of the agents names too including the one you mentioned earlier.
Originally Posted By Submariner:
This NV forum?
Chip Lasky of TNVC recommends the Surefire White/IR LED Weaponlight in lieu of the IR flood.
Any thoughts on this as an aid to lawful use on a Class 1 IR laser?
Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
A number of people on this forum have already had such items confiscated.
A number of people on this forum have already had such items confiscated.
This NV forum?
Chip Lasky of TNVC recommends the Surefire White/IR LED Weaponlight in lieu of the IR flood.
Any thoughts on this as an aid to lawful use on a Class 1 IR laser?
Yes, it has come up on this forum before. If you search the archives you'll find a few sad tales of confiscated equipment there. Some mention of the agents names too including the one you mentioned earlier.
Anyway, Chip is a subject-matter expert on this topic and I would place considerable weighting on his advice. He knows the equipment and uses it tactically and both he and Vic are the first sources of such information I would seek out if I needed advice on lasers.
As for my opinion? I think it's useful, but alignment could be a challenge and so could limiting beam spread. It's a complicated topic, but that's not necessarily due to the change of "Laser" to "LED".
Regards
David
David
Not saying Chip is wrong, but what works for some purposes & situations - is Ill suited for others.... Regarding the OP's question - Why do YOU use night vision devices and lasers together? Quickly acquiring a target without bringing the weapon up to your shoulder & fighting your NOD over your non dominate eye would be the most popular answer I would think. There is the Tacticool factor for some (Impress the hell outta your friends) Hunters & people who protect their livestock from predators that hunt by night seem to find NOD's & lasers go hand & hand. If they were not popular LDI would not be charging close to a grand a pop for a laser you can only see with money already invested in a (most times Expencive) Night Vision device...
12/22/2011 8:55:33 PM
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Yes, the Class I LaserMax unit.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Umbrarian/Guns/Glock-AA1722.jpg
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
What low power pistol unit are you using? Lasermax? Or do you have some sort of converted X400, TLR-2, M6X, etc...?
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
My experience is the exact opposite. I find the full power lasers are not really sufficient to meet my needs, and I would rather have nothing and go with a typical NV scope. I love the low-power units, especially on my pistol which is usually used for short-distance. Even on a rifle, I can still see it out a few hundred yards. Not having a beam is a plus, as I have no need to have others seeing what I am doing.
Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
But in my opinion, the Class 1 lasers are not really sufficient to meet the needs of people who use lasers, but they are better than nothing.
You will likely not see the beam itself which reduces the safety aspect of it. With a Class 1, it's of use to the shooter, but not really of any use to the people around him.
My experience is the exact opposite. I find the full power lasers are not really sufficient to meet my needs, and I would rather have nothing and go with a typical NV scope. I love the low-power units, especially on my pistol which is usually used for short-distance. Even on a rifle, I can still see it out a few hundred yards. Not having a beam is a plus, as I have no need to have others seeing what I am doing.
What low power pistol unit are you using? Lasermax? Or do you have some sort of converted X400, TLR-2, M6X, etc...?
Yes, the Class I LaserMax unit.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Umbrarian/Guns/Glock-AA1722.jpg
What do you think of it? The only reviews and pictures I've seen on here haven't been too flattering
12/22/2011 9:46:27 PM
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
What do you think of it? The only reviews and pictures I've seen on here haven't been too flattering
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Yes, the Class I LaserMax unit.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Umbrarian/Guns/Glock-AA1722.jpg
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
What low power pistol unit are you using? Lasermax? Or do you have some sort of converted X400, TLR-2, M6X, etc...?
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
My experience is the exact opposite. I find the full power lasers are not really sufficient to meet my needs, and I would rather have nothing and go with a typical NV scope. I love the low-power units, especially on my pistol which is usually used for short-distance. Even on a rifle, I can still see it out a few hundred yards. Not having a beam is a plus, as I have no need to have others seeing what I am doing.
Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
But in my opinion, the Class 1 lasers are not really sufficient to meet the needs of people who use lasers, but they are better than nothing.
You will likely not see the beam itself which reduces the safety aspect of it. With a Class 1, it's of use to the shooter, but not really of any use to the people around him.
My experience is the exact opposite. I find the full power lasers are not really sufficient to meet my needs, and I would rather have nothing and go with a typical NV scope. I love the low-power units, especially on my pistol which is usually used for short-distance. Even on a rifle, I can still see it out a few hundred yards. Not having a beam is a plus, as I have no need to have others seeing what I am doing.
What low power pistol unit are you using? Lasermax? Or do you have some sort of converted X400, TLR-2, M6X, etc...?
Yes, the Class I LaserMax unit.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Umbrarian/Guns/Glock-AA1722.jpg
What do you think of it? The only reviews and pictures I've seen on here haven't been too flattering
It works for me. I have a lot of varmints I need to dipatch around the house - dillos, opossum, skunks, raccoons, snakes, etc. I usually use it in conjunction with head rig. It is like cheating - with white light they run, in the dark they just stand still and look at me trying to figure out WTF. Pfft.
12/23/2011 6:24:43 AM
The Surefire Vampire light is a nice, solid unit. It has a broader spill than say a torch, but the ability to switch back & forth from IR to white is nice and offsets the rather expensive price tag. I use it for general purpose, but it's too bright indoors, so I use the M1IR illuminator for closer in.
I just saw a hog on my range tonight, and was preparing to try a long range shot... Looked like @ 450 yards, but he was spooked by coyotes before I could try the shot. I was attaching the torch to the d-740 equipped rifle and he was gone by the time I was ready.
In that case, any laser would be less than ideal and you would have trouble placing the bullet. If I as walked up to him, I might have grabbed the laser equipped rifle and used the PVS-14 on my base jump helmet.
I just saw a hog on my range tonight, and was preparing to try a long range shot... Looked like @ 450 yards, but he was spooked by coyotes before I could try the shot. I was attaching the torch to the d-740 equipped rifle and he was gone by the time I was ready.
In that case, any laser would be less than ideal and you would have trouble placing the bullet. If I as walked up to him, I might have grabbed the laser equipped rifle and used the PVS-14 on my base jump helmet.
12/27/2011 12:19:10 AM
I would love to say more on this topic but my buddy Agent Wu is always watching. 
David makes some great points that only few understand. Low power IR lasers actually work great for short ranges but sometimes you need more. I like the option to have more despite what Agent Wu thinks. One day I may be so lucky as to own one of these high powered IR lasers.
David makes some great points that only few understand. Low power IR lasers actually work great for short ranges but sometimes you need more. I like the option to have more despite what Agent Wu thinks. One day I may be so lucky as to own one of these high powered IR lasers.
