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 PVS-14 being confiscated by NCIS?
pdm  [Team Member]
4/29/2011 1:10:51 PM
I just received a call from a special agent who informed me that I'm in possession of a PVS-14 that was manufactured for DoD?? He stated that he'll have to confiscate the device and if this is handled informally no case will be opened??

WTF? Has anyone heard of this before?

I believe the device does have a UV tube. Does that in and of itself make the device DoD controlled?

This is really catching me off guard as I have 2K invested in this. It appears that when I had the unit serviced the company called ITT to see if the warranty was in effect. It also appears that ITT reported the device to NCIS.

Anyways, I've asked the agent to provide me a copy of the law or regulation but it looks like I'm out a serious hunk of cash.
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TNVC  [Industry Partner]
4/29/2011 1:30:32 PM
Originally Posted By pdm:
I just received a call from a special agent who informed me that I'm in possession of a PVS-14 that was manufactured for DoD?? He stated that he'll have to confiscate the device and if this is handled informally no case will be opened??

WTF? Has anyone heard of this before?

I believe the device does have a UV tube. Does that in and of itself make the device DoD controlled?

This is really catching me off guard as I have 2K invested in this. It appears that when I had the unit serviced the company called ITT to see if the warranty was in effect. It also appears that ITT reported the device to NCIS.

Anyways, I've asked the agent to provide me a copy of the law or regulation but it looks like I'm out a serious hunk of cash.


Unfortunately more than you can imagine and no we are not surprised you received a phone call.

We tell EVERYONE, buying off E-Bay or any other unvalidated establishments or individuals can be a risk at times. There was a USA Today report several years ago on this very subject of mass amounts of stolen US Govy NV.

This is a VERY real situation out there.

Vic

Edited, Indeed ALWAYS ask for validation of the agent calling you and regs etc. Most of these gents are good guys doing their job and most know the end user is not at fault in these situations.
Dino1130  [Team Member]
4/29/2011 1:33:32 PM
I have helped a guy before who bought two PVS-14's that turned out to be Gov property. He was out his money. I bought a lens for a PVS-4 and a darn lens for a 25 year old scope was confiscated. I only lost 300 bucks but this does happen. They seem to be really stepping up efforts to curb this. I had no idea a PVS-4 lens would be still in inventory and Gov property.

Honestly, it is not you they are after. They just want their gear back. You can play hard ball and make them take you to court but you will need a lawyer and I would bet will be out a good bit more than 2K , and may still wind up losing your scope. Sorry this happened to you but you are not alone. This really stinks but I think you will come out cheaper by just giving it to them. Go after the seller of the scope in civil court. I would ask in the legal section here also for more information.
TNVC  [Industry Partner]
4/29/2011 1:34:52 PM
Originally Posted By Dino1130:
I have helped a guy before who bought two PVS-14's that turned out to be Gov property. He was out his money. I bought a lens for a PVS-4 and a darn lens for 25 year old scope was confiscated. I only lost 300 bucks but this does happen. They seem to be really stepping up efforts to curb this. I had no idea a PVS-4 lens would be still in inventory and Gov property.

Honestly it is not you they are after. They just want their gear back. You can play hard ball and make them take you to court but you will need a lawyer and I would bet will be out a good bit more than 2K and may still wind up losing your scope. Sorry this happened to you but you are not alone. This really stinks but I think you will come out cheaper by just giving it to them. Go after the seller of the scope in civil court. I would ask in the legal section here also for more information.


In a huge way we can tell you.
pdm  [Team Member]
4/29/2011 1:35:46 PM
There was a USA Today report several years ago on this very subject of mass amounts of stolen US Govy NV.

This is a VERY real situation out there.


Yes and concur. I had this conversation with a CID buddy a few months ago in Kabul. Without getting into to specifics the issue is huge and has to do with the volumes of gear being shipped/ pilfered.

This issue here is that the agent said that he doesn't suspect the unit of being stolen, just originally manufactured for the DoD. I imagine that this is due to the tube? Funny, as I can buy UV tubes from multiple sources at any one given time. If it is the tube then logically all of these could be confiscated.

How do you guys preclude this with the MILSPEC tubes you sell?



TNVC  [Industry Partner]
4/29/2011 1:37:30 PM
Originally Posted By pdm:
Yes and concur. I had this conversation with a CID buddy a few months ago in Kabul. Without getting into to specifics the issue is huge and has to do with the volumes of gear being shipped/ pilfered.

This issue here is that the agent said that he doesn't suspect the unit of being stolen, just originally manufactured for the DoD. I imagine that this is due to the tube? Funny, as I can buy UV tubes from multiple sources at any one given time. If it is the tube then logically all of these could be confiscated.

How do you guys preclude this with the MILSPEC tubes you sell?



Factory built complete units from ITT and purchased from the source. We do not sell individual MS tubes.
karma  [Team Member]
4/29/2011 2:13:51 PM
Sorry to hear about your PVS-14. That is a risk when you buy from individuals, regardless of where or what you buy. You have civil recourse if you kept the sellers information but your $2k is probably at the bottom of his worry list since DCIS or NCIS has probably tracked him down. The NCIS guy will probably ask about the seller as well. Did the housing have 'Property of US Government' on it? Pretty good way to tell its heritage.

The NV police watch for this on popular boards- I wouldn't recommend selling NV on Craigslist located by bases like Ft. Hood and other big bases- good way to get a phone call or email. http://www.ar15.com/forums/manageReply.html?b=6&f=18&t=342590&r=3098705&page=1#
pdm  [Team Member]
4/29/2011 2:15:38 PM
Just talked to the agent. Nice guy and just doing his job.

Seems I get to keep the housing and lenses but the tube has to get turned back in. Oh well could be worse....I guess I'm in the market for a nice Gen 3 tube.




Did the housing have 'Property of US Government' on it? Pretty good way to tell its heritage.


No, actually the housing is an L3 unit but it appears that the tube is ITT milspec. Bummer as it's as clean as they get....I guess it a tube that made its way out of the DoD system and was installed in a CIV housing.
TNVC  [Industry Partner]
4/29/2011 2:23:13 PM
Originally Posted By karma:
Sorry to hear about your PVS-14. That is a risk when you buy from individuals, regardless of where or what you buy. You have civil recourse if you kept the sellers information but your $2k is probably at the bottom of his worry list since DCIS or NCIS has probably tracked him down. The NCIS guy will probably ask about the seller as well. Did the housing have 'Property of US Government' on it? Pretty good way to tell its heritage.

The NV police watch for this on popular boards- I wouldn't recommend selling NV on Craigslist located by bases like Ft. Hood and other big bases- good way to get a phone call or email. http://www.ar15.com/forums/manageReply.html?b=6&f=18&t=342590&r=3098705&page=1#


Be careful there....Funny, we've been saying that for years and have gotten beat up over this and other "places".
Dino1130  [Team Member]
4/29/2011 2:26:45 PM
Originally Posted By pdm:
There was a USA Today report several years ago on this very subject of mass amounts of stolen US Govy NV.

This is a VERY real situation out there.


Yes and concur. I had this conversation with a CID buddy a few months ago in Kabul. Without getting into to specifics the issue is huge and has to do with the volumes of gear being shipped/ pilfered.

This issue here is that the agent said that he doesn't suspect the unit of being stolen, just originally manufactured for the DoD. I imagine that this is due to the tube? Funny, as I can buy UV tubes from multiple sources at any one given time. If it is the tube then logically all of these could be confiscated.

How do you guys preclude this with the MILSPEC tubes you sell?







I know some that sell older surplus tubes that are milspec but nothing new and modern. I don't know of any legit dealer who will sell a new modern ITT milspec tube for a PVS-14. Some have complete factory ITT milspec units for sale but not tubes. Was the ITT tube bought from a private seller ?

Dravur  [Team Member]
4/29/2011 3:00:31 PM
Tell him you will only turn it over to Gibbs.... No one else
piston925  [Member]
4/29/2011 3:13:05 PM
Originally Posted By Dravur:
Tell him you will only turn it over to Gibbs.... No one else


^^ HAHA Sorry to hear about that!!
karma  [Team Member]
4/29/2011 3:38:09 PM
Originally Posted By pdm:
Just talked to the agent. Nice guy and just doing his job.

Seems I get to keep the housing and lenses but the tube has to get turned back in. Oh well could be worse....I guess I'm in the market for a nice Gen 3 tube.




Did the housing have 'Property of US Government' on it? Pretty good way to tell its heritage.


No, actually the housing is an L3 unit but it appears that the tube is ITT milspec. Bummer as it's as clean as they get....I guess it a tube that made its way out of the DoD system and was installed in a CIV housing.


Where did you buy it? From an auction site or from another source?
pdm  [Team Member]
4/29/2011 3:53:41 PM
Where did you buy it? From an auction site or from another source?


It was a private sale off another board.

Being that it looks like I get to keep everything BUT the tube does anyone have a suggestion on what I should replace it with?
fordkicksass  [Team Member]
4/29/2011 4:06:56 PM
Wow that sucks, at least you get to keep the housing though.
pdm  [Team Member]
4/29/2011 8:47:01 PM
Here's a pic of the tube in question. Can someone tell me what designates this a DoD tube that never has been available for purchase by the public?

Dino1130  [Team Member]
4/29/2011 9:16:15 PM
Pretty much everything about it but more specifically the Contract # DAAB07-02-C-J008. I gave you a link which will tell you what branch of military ordered it and other details. This is without a doubt a Gov owned tube. Your tube was bought by the US Army.


http://www.defense.gov/contracts/contract.aspx?contractid=2259

You can also look the contract up here at CJ7Hawk Omni charts

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=18&t=317705

ETA : I am sorry this happened. I can't believe someone you paid to do work would turn you in on a warranty expired tube. I don't know how you got it and it is none of my business. This said, at some point in the chain somebody took a tube they should not have and sold it. You ended up being the victim which is the sad part. I know you had no idea this was not a legit tube.

The housing alone is worth about 1k so all is not lost. You can at least recoup some cost. The tube you have is a ITT Omni VI milspec AG tube. Does not get much better than that. You pretty much have the best of the best in that tube.
piston925  [Member]
4/30/2011 1:27:12 AM
wow, that's a gen 4 tube damn!!!
compasscall  [Member]
4/30/2011 2:01:48 AM
Originally Posted By pdm:
I just received a call from a special agent who informed me that I'm in possession of a PVS-14 that was manufactured for DoD?? He stated that he'll have to confiscate the device and if this is handled informally no case will be opened??


I would never handle a situation like this informally. You are not accused, as far as I can tell, of possessing stolen property and simply possessing what can effectively be called surplus equipment is far from a criminal act. If I where you, I'd make them open a formal case where they would have to effect a seizure notice, this way everything is documented. As you've already requested, I'd make sure they provide me with article or statute that allows them do seize personal property for which theft is not suspected.


Originally Posted By pdm:This issue here is that the agent said that he doesn't suspect the unit of being stolen, just originally manufactured for the DoD.


So the agent does not think it is stolen but was originally manufactured for the DoD. There's a lot of equipment that this can be said for and some includes night vision gear. It's critical that they provide you with article and seizure notice.

Originally Posted By pdm:It appears that when I had the unit serviced the company called ITT to see if the warranty was in effect. It also appears that ITT reported the device to NCIS.


Wow, what a breach of trust. Had I been the company rep. that called ITT and ITT asked for the my customers private information, I'd tell them to go pound sand. But then this doesn't sound like a simple and innocent warranty question since the tube worked fine and there seems not to have been a problem with the housing. What did the warranty have to do with the service for which you sent the unit in for.

Who did you send it to that did this? Seems other innocent people could benefit from unsuspectingly sending their unit in to have serviced and then wham, confiscated.




Fox5  [Member]
4/30/2011 2:15:27 AM
If this is what happens, they know about it and they ask for it back, then I hope my own issue will clear up as soon as possible.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1179059&page=1 sorry for the unrelated topic on night vision but related to other issue
compasscall  [Member]
4/30/2011 4:16:25 AM
Originally Posted By Fox5:
If this is what happens, they know about it and they ask for it back, then I hope my own issue will clear up as soon as possible.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1179059&page=1 sorry for the unrelated topic on night vision but related to other issue


Your situation may be unrelated to night vision but it is still relevant. In both cases the item in question has not been identified or claimed as stolen by any federal agent or agency. However in this case, the claimed NCIS agent seems to have stated that the unit is not suspected of being stolen:


Originally Posted By pdm:This issue here is that the agent said that he doesn't suspect the unit of being stolen, just originally manufactured for the DoD.


1) If anyone where to know for sure it is stolen wouldn't it be the claimed NCIS agent in charge of the case, the very person who seems to say it's not stolen.

2) If the image intensifier is not stolen, as the claimed NCIS agent is saying, then on what grounds can he, the agent, affect a seizure?

3) What exactly does "handle this informally mean"? This seems moot since the tube is not being claimed by the agent as stolen, so there is nothing to handle formally or informally.

4) If this is not true and the agent knows it's stolen but is not saying then he should be treating such a serious matter formally.





compasscall  [Member]
4/30/2011 4:22:01 AM
Originally Posted By Fox5:
If this is what happens, they know about it and they ask for it back, then I hope my own issue will clear up as soon as possible.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1179059&page=1 sorry for the unrelated topic on night vision but related to other issue


Seems like in your case the only one claiming it's stolen is the buyer and for the following reason:

Originally Posted By jakhamr81:I requested a refund based on the fact that this item was sold to the government and no documentation authorizing its release can be produced.


This is just a creative way of inferring the item is stolen i.e. no documentation authorizing it's release = stolen.
hrt4me  [Team Member]
4/30/2011 4:22:58 AM
Originally Posted By piston925:
wow, that's a gen 4 tube damn!!!


No such thing as a Gen4 tube, that's a commonly propagated misnomer (just like the term "Class III dealer")
piston925  [Member]
4/30/2011 5:50:53 AM
Originally Posted By hrt4me:
Originally Posted By piston925:
wow, that's a gen 4 tube damn!!!


No such thing as a Gen4 tube, that's a commonly propagated misnomer (just like the term "Class III dealer")


Wrong!!
pdm  [Team Member]
4/30/2011 8:32:35 AM
@ Compasscall...

I appreciate your passion but to be quite honest there's no longer any doubt in my mind that the tube that I possess is US DoD property. That being the case I'll hand it over at the earliest opportunity. That's only right. The salient point is that it's become apparent that these tubes were NEVER sold as a commercial product and ONLY sold to the USG. Also pertinent is that this tube is apparently leading edge technology hence the likelihood that it was a DRMO sale is almost zero. Knowing what I now know I'd say, with certainity, that this is a stolen tube.

Don't get me wrong...this sucks for me. I'm out about $2K and this tube is absolutely perfect without any defects that I could find. Really a perfect tube...The irony is that I sold a TNVC NE that I had once I saw this tube...in retrospect I guess bells should have gone off in my head once I saw that this tube was at least as good as the NE at 1/2 the price. In my defense I'm generally a product of a pre-9/11 military and NODs were controlled tighter than weapons. It was almost unheard of to hear of one pilfered and when one was it was a MAJOR life changing event for the individual or unit who "lost" it. Not so anymore, it seems.

Who did you send it to that did this? Seems other innocent people could benefit from unsuspectingly sending their unit in to have serviced and then wham, confiscated.


No plans on stating publicly who I sent this to as they're not culpable. They were checking with ITT on PS warranty issue. Once ITT saw it it seems they contacted DoD who in turn must have contacted the repair shop for my personal information. The real issue is that it seems to be incumbent, by law, on ITT to report any suspected stolen NODs to the USG. Let's be honest....ITT did the right thing and no one is culpable except the guy who stole this.

Now for 2 questions for the group....


1. If I decide to replace this tube what should I replace it with? I'm looking at a F9815SLG with high perforamnce specs. How do these compare?

2. The housing is not USG. Another COA might be to sell this, take that money and put it towards another NE from TNVC. What's the complete unit worth minus the tube? It's like new with the single batt upgrade and new PS. Lenses are also perfect.
karma  [Team Member]
4/30/2011 9:52:01 AM
Originally Posted By piston925:
wow, that's a gen 4 tube damn!!!


Sorry - not a filmless tube.
RustedAce  [Team Member]
4/30/2011 10:35:41 AM
Happened to me with an MTM. Guy had a fake ebay store and everything.



Just buy from a reputable store like TNVC or Rainier etc.
TNVC  [Industry Partner]
4/30/2011 10:36:00 AM
I think the best advice is to cooperate with the investigation fully and you're doing that. Some of the legal advice posted in this thread specifically is not the best of advice of what they think the law is. On top of that the thousands it could cost you in legal fee's WELL above the original cost of the unit!

The key here IS to have everything documented and do meet with the NCIS direct. They would be happy to meet in person as they understand over the tele lines is altogether the initial contact to everyone cooperating.
Dino1130  [Team Member]
4/30/2011 10:55:07 AM
For the second part of your question of what to replace the tube with you have lots of options, all really depends on what you are willing to spend. Your tube is basically no different than a tube in a Night enforcer (SLG). Your tube was just milspec so it passed all the tests. Specs on a commercial tube will determine whether or not the tube is great , good or horrible.

I would call around to dealers that sell tubes with data sheets. You can use the CJ7Hawk Omni chart link I gave you to match up performance specs to something comparable to the tube you have. L3 or ITT both make great tubes. The specs will determine what is suitable for your needs. If you want to be 100% sure of what you are getting a tube with a data sheet is the only way to go in my opinion. Everything else is just someones opinion.

You can always sell the housing and buy a new scope with a data sheet. My guess is a used housing in good shape like yours should sell in the $800 range. A new housing can be had for about $1,100 retail. I would have no issue paying $800 for yours so I believe it should sell fairly easy.
fordkicksass  [Team Member]
4/30/2011 2:32:25 PM
Originally Posted By RustedAce:
Happened to me with an MTM. Guy had a fake ebay store and everything.



Just buy from a reputable store like TNVC or Rainier etc.


If you're referring to an Insight MTM, then OUCH!!
pdm  [Team Member]
4/30/2011 3:38:51 PM
Dino, Thanks so much for taking the time to write these responses.

What do you think of this F9815SLG tube...? I'm condiering this one as a replacement. It has the full ITT warranty and is new.

PCR: 2011
Halo: 0.94
EBI: 1.73
Res: 72
FOM: 2059.2
S/N: 28.6
Tube Gain: 68,150
System Gain: 30 to 7320
Image Quality: Clean





Originally Posted By Dino1130:
For the second part of your question of what to replace the tube with you have lots of options, all really depends on what you are willing to spend. Your tube is basically no different than a tube in a Night enforcer (SLG). Your tube was just milspec so it passed all the tests. Specs on a commercial tube will determine whether or not the tube is great , good or horrible.

I would call around to dealers that sell tubes with data sheets. You can use the CJ7Hawk Omni chart link I gave you to match up performance specs to something comparable to the tube you have. L3 or ITT both make great tubes. The specs will determine what is suitable for your needs. If you want to be 100% sure of what you are getting a tube with a data sheet is the only way to go in my opinion. Everything else is just someones opinion.

You can always sell the housing and buy a new scope with a data sheet. My guess is a used housing in good shape like yours should sell in the $800 range. A new housing can be had for about $1,100 retail. I would have no issue paying $800 for yours so I believe it should sell fairly easy.


Dino1130  [Team Member]
4/30/2011 3:47:17 PM
Originally Posted By pdm:
Dino, Thanks so much for taking the time to write these responses.

What do you think of this F9815SLG tube...? I'm condiering this one as a replacement. It has the full ITT warranty and is new.

PCR: 2011
Halo: 0.94
EBI: 1.73
Res: 72
FOM: 2059.2
S/N: 28.6
Tube Gain: 68,150
System Gain: 30 to 7320
Image Quality: Clean





Originally Posted By Dino1130:
For the second part of your question of what to replace the tube with you have lots of options, all really depends on what you are willing to spend. Your tube is basically no different than a tube in a Night enforcer (SLG). Your tube was just milspec so it passed all the tests. Specs on a commercial tube will determine whether or not the tube is great , good or horrible.

I would call around to dealers that sell tubes with data sheets. You can use the CJ7Hawk Omni chart link I gave you to match up performance specs to something comparable to the tube you have. L3 or ITT both make great tubes. The specs will determine what is suitable for your needs. If you want to be 100% sure of what you are getting a tube with a data sheet is the only way to go in my opinion. Everything else is just someones opinion.

You can always sell the housing and buy a new scope with a data sheet. My guess is a used housing in good shape like yours should sell in the $800 range. A new housing can be had for about $1,100 retail. I would have no issue paying $800 for yours so I believe it should sell fairly easy.




Solid performer. Very close to what you had if not better. Glad I could help !
RustedAce  [Team Member]
4/30/2011 5:14:12 PM

Originally Posted By fordkicksass:
Originally Posted By RustedAce:
Happened to me with an MTM. Guy had a fake ebay store and everything.



Just buy from a reputable store like TNVC or Rainier etc.


If you're referring to an Insight MTM, then OUCH!!

It cost me about 2 times as much as I paid for the unit in lost wages when CID flew my back from AFG to answer three questions at the trial.

They subpoenaed me from a forward FOB and made me fly all the way back to America, even though they had 20 other witnesses.

TNVC  [Industry Partner]
4/30/2011 6:10:41 PM
Originally Posted By RustedAce:

Originally Posted By fordkicksass:
Originally Posted By RustedAce:
Happened to me with an MTM. Guy had a fake ebay store and everything.



Just buy from a reputable store like TNVC or Rainier etc.


If you're referring to an Insight MTM, then OUCH!!

It cost me about 2 times as much as I paid for the unit in lost wages when CID flew my back from AFG to answer three questions at the trial.

They subpoenaed me from a forward FOB and made me fly all the way back to America, even though they had 20 other witnesses.



Wow, just wow you went through this.
murderman  [Team Member]
4/30/2011 6:17:14 PM
Originally Posted By pdm:
Dino, Thanks so much for taking the time to write these responses.

What do you think of this F9815SLG tube...? I'm condiering this one as a replacement. It has the full ITT warranty and is new.

PCR: 2011
Halo: 0.94
EBI: 1.73
Res: 72
FOM: 2059.2
S/N: 28.6
Tube Gain: 68,150
System Gain: 30 to 7320
Image Quality: Clean





Originally Posted By Dino1130:
For the second part of your question of what to replace the tube with you have lots of options, all really depends on what you are willing to spend. Your tube is basically no different than a tube in a Night enforcer (SLG). Your tube was just milspec so it passed all the tests. Specs on a commercial tube will determine whether or not the tube is great , good or horrible.

I would call around to dealers that sell tubes with data sheets. You can use the CJ7Hawk Omni chart link I gave you to match up performance specs to something comparable to the tube you have. L3 or ITT both make great tubes. The specs will determine what is suitable for your needs. If you want to be 100% sure of what you are getting a tube with a data sheet is the only way to go in my opinion. Everything else is just someones opinion.

You can always sell the housing and buy a new scope with a data sheet. My guess is a used housing in good shape like yours should sell in the $800 range. A new housing can be had for about $1,100 retail. I would have no issue paying $800 for yours so I believe it should sell fairly easy.




EBI a little higher than optimal, but overall very good composite specs.
SideSalad  [Team Member]
4/30/2011 6:40:04 PM
OP,

I hate to see anyone get caught up in the tangled web you speak of.

I know a lot of folks that are either into the game (NV) already opr about to jump and hear a lot of the same questions. By no means am I an expert on the subject so, by my logic, find an expert. The answer I tell everyone who asks me is this ––-> call Vic @ TNVC. You'll have every question answered, get great CS and a great, legal prdouct.

R/

SS
compasscall  [Member]
4/30/2011 8:59:17 PM
Originally Posted By pdm: Compasscall...I appreciate your passion but to be quite honest there's no longer any doubt in my mind that the tube that I possess is US DoD property.


Since it is still U.S. Government Property, it would then have to be considered stolen. It nice to at least know it's stolen then that your getting jerked around by someone wanting a freebie.

Originally Posted By pdm:The salient point is that it's become apparent that these tubes were NEVER sold as a commercial product and ONLY sold to the USG.


This in no way indicates that such equipment is stolen. Because it was once U.S. gov. property doesn't mean that it always is nor still is.A couple years ago there was a fellow in SoCal that was getting huge numbers of F4949G/TG and associated support equipment through DRMO. The goggles still had their ident plates intact and U.S. Government Property imprint on the PAS, these units contained tubes that where just as current as your tube. Many individuals and dealers bought these units. One of the dealers that purchased from this fellow, at one time had pictures of one of these units up on their website with the set labels (not official ident labels) still attached to the sides of the tube housings. That same set is still up but these white set labels have been removed though traces of adhesive from those labels is still visible. These units, though purchased with DoD funds and having at one time been the property of the DoD are not still considered U.S. Gov Property nor considered stolen equipment. Just because a piece of equipment has a contract #, NSN or U.S. Government Property insignia in no way indicate the equipment is stolen. However, if what you have is a stolen piece of equipment then your right for returning it regardless the cost to you. As stated before, what was once Gov. Property does not equate to Stolen Gov. Property.

ETA: In all fairness, I picked up a few of those F4949G/TG's from him personally and spent a couple evening with him and his family. He and his wife where hilarious, they had two pet raccoons that loved to go swimming, what a surprise. Also found out that domesticated Raccoons are not the friendliest creatures and have some pretty wicked claws. The Biggest surprise to me though in regards to the equipment and who some of the buyers of this equipment where. It was also only the second time that I'd directly seen that dealers buy DRMO from second parties.


Originally Posted By pdm: Knowing what I now know I'd say, with certainty, that this is a stolen tube.


I only know what you've posted and other than guessing it's stolen even when the claimed NCIS agent states otherwise, is there any factual proof indicating the tube is in fact stolen and by this I don't mean was it at one time purchased with DoD funds or having Contracts # or an NSN? There's a big difference between a stolen item and an item that at one time belonged to another.

If you had received a call and said agent stated that you where in possession of stolen equipment my take would be a little different, this has happened many times but never have I heard of it happening in your case


Originally Posted By pdm:PCR: 2011
Halo: 0.94
EBI: 1.73
Res: 72
FOM: 2059.2
S/N: 28.6
Tube Gain: 68,150
System Gain: 30 to 7320
Image Quality: Clean



PCR is low, I'd look at something with a PCR > 2200

In my opinion the EBI on that tube is insanely high, I wouldn't even look at a tube with an EBI value higher than 1.00 and would look for a tube with an EBI value < .50

S/N is pretty good but you can find a tube with S/N > 30


RustedAce  [Team Member]
5/1/2011 1:21:23 AM

Originally Posted By TNVC:
Originally Posted By RustedAce:

Originally Posted By fordkicksass:
Originally Posted By RustedAce:
Happened to me with an MTM. Guy had a fake ebay store and everything.



Just buy from a reputable store like TNVC or Rainier etc.


If you're referring to an Insight MTM, then OUCH!!

It cost me about 2 times as much as I paid for the unit in lost wages when CID flew my back from AFG to answer three questions at the trial.

They subpoenaed me from a forward FOB and made me fly all the way back to America, even though they had 20 other witnesses.



Wow, just wow you went through this.

Yeah, it was pretty tragically funny, my company and my client wrote letters to CID explaining where I was at, and how hard it would be for me to come in, and that they would gladly set up a video conference, or have a .mil officer at the base take my statements etc.

CIDs response was basically "HOW DARE YOU CLAIM THIS IS MORE IMPORTANT!!!!!!"

They asked me:

Is this the unit? Yeah

Who did you buy it from? Ebay store such and such

Do you know if its this guy? No, I paid through paypal to ebay whatever

That was it!




I basically only buy now from industry partners here.

Dino1130  [Team Member]
5/1/2011 1:27:58 AM
PDM, the milspec guidelines on a Omni VI tube which is what you had is Min of 2000 for PCR. This SLG tube exceeds that spec in your spec sheet. It would exceed milspec guidelines in that aspect. Many guys here are picky on specs. It is because of the endless search for the perfect tube. I can tell you that tube does not exist and you will go through thousands like I have searching for it.

That tube is a solid performer with very good specs. Best I have seen ? No. But, much better then average and better then many tubes I own. EBI is totally acceptable. The S/N is very good and the res is excellent. Having a S/N over 30 is possible but VERY rare and leads me back to searching for the perfect tube which you will pay for through the nose. I like to see a EBI under 2. Some guys want to see a EBI under 1 which is fine. That EBI and PC response in the tube you specified exceed Omni VI specs. The res well exceeds specs. Anytime you have a FOM over 2000 you have a very good tube.

Stan, I understand what you are saying. But, sometimes it is easier and MUCH cheaper to just cooperate with a late model milspec tube. The Gov has unlimited funds and most of us do not. I stand by my advice. I think he will spend much more fighting this and still may wind up losing his tube. He may win in a court of law but it will cost him to fight it. I pick and choose my battles and this is not a battle I would fight.

The PVS-4 objective lens they took from me I think was bull. I am not going to be a martyr on the cross for 300 bucks. Just not worth my time and money which is why I let them have it. I am not afraid to fight but it has to be a fight I have a good chance of winning and one that is cost effective. In my opinion PDM will lose and also be out a boat load of money in legal fees.
compasscall  [Member]
5/1/2011 4:36:04 AM
Originally Posted By Dino1130:That tube is a solid performer with very good specs. Best I have seen ? No. But, much better then average and better then many tubes I own. EBI is totally acceptable. The S/N is very good and the res is excellent. Having a S/N over 30 is possible but VERY rare and leads me back to searching for the perfect tube which you will pay for through the nose. I like to see a EBI under 2. Some guys want to see a EBI under 1 which is fine. That EBI and PC response in the tube you specified exceed Omni VI specs. The res well exceeds specs. Anytime you have a FOM over 2000 you have a very good tube.


Dean, you and I both spent years and large sums of money to find the ultimate tube. You, I assume would probably agree that holding out for the ultimate tube (spec wise) is an unrealistic approach. After 7 plus years I'm a bit more realistic and have found my perfect tube, at least for the mean time.This perfect tube actually only looks good to me and others whom have seen it don't agree and think other tubes I've shown them are better. This doesn't mean I'm not on the lookout for a 2 micron MCP filmless and halo free tube but for now what I have is perfect. The perfect or ultimate tube is the one that the owner is happy with or should I say satisfied and meets the expectations of it's owner. To this end I set the bar pretty high but not unreasonable. Putting aside the scientific reasons for why I recommend the minimum/maximum specs I do, experience and logic cause me to recommend what I do. Why buy a tube with an EBI of 2.00 when I can buy one with .50 when I or anyone else here could make one call and have an SLG tube that has an EBI value of < .50, a PCR > 2200 S/N > 30 Sure it will cost you $1850 but it's new, factory sheeted, warrantied and no one can play Gov. property games on it. One can also for the same price purchase a a tube that has super high EBI, low S/N and and below export FOM.

Yes, I'm a confirmed EBI junky but that's because I expect my tubes to work well will very little light, don't care if it works well in highlight environments but I do care if it goes blind in ultra low light environments, that's not my idea of night vision. Then again not many people need nor want their tubes to image distant Galaxies.

Originally Posted By Dino1130:Stan, I understand what you are saying.


Well @*%# me, I'm glad someone does.


Originally Posted By Dino1130:But, sometimes it is easier and MUCH cheaper to just cooperate with a late model milspec tube. The Gov has unlimited funds and most of us do not. I stand by my advice. I think he will spend much more fighting this and still may wind up losing his tube. He may win in a court of law but it will cost him to fight it. I pick and choose my battles and this is not a battle I would fight.

The PVS-4 objective lens they took from me I think was bull. I am not going to be a martyr on the cross for 300 bucks. Just not worth my time and money which is why I let them have it. I am not afraid to fight but it has to be a fight I have a good chance of winning and one that is cost effective. In my opinion PDM will lose and also be out a boat load of money in legal fees.


Your advice is no less valid in my eye's than my own advice or anyone elses. The OP is the one who has to figure things out and hopefully finds sound legal advice from an attorney rather than me and hopefully before he hands over something because of vaporous threats. As stated before, if there is a seizure it better better be justified with written directive that has legal standing and all proceedings be well documented. My first question would be by what means the agent is authorized to seize what so far has been determined to be a lawfully obtained article. I'd also like a definition of "Informally Handled" because my first thought would be it means back room type of stuff. This is small stuff compared to some things I've had to fight.

This brings to mind those who have been executed or imprisoned due to oversights, greed, power, ego and all other human tendencies that have been cultured.

The following facts where taken from the Innocence Projects website:

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/How_many_people_have_been_exonerated_through_DNA_testing.php

Q. How many people have been exonerated through DNA testing?

A. Since 1989, more than 250 people in 34 states have been exonerated through post-conviction DNA testing. View our map of exonerations by state to learn more about geographic trends and individual cases.

In closing, I have to bring myself back to what the OP originally stated:


Originally Posted By pdm:This issue here is that the agent said that he doesn't suspect the unit of being stolen, just originally manufactured for the DoD.


All the alluding to the "stolen" bit is simply assumptions based on vague statements.

Based on the little information available, it seems the dealer who called this in is suspect as the warranty on the tube expired in June of 2010, almost a year ago. When was the tube sent in for work that apparently needed the warranty to be verified. For me to believe in the dealers innocence the tube had better have needed warranty work and they best have looked at it prior to June of 2010. If a tube is stolen and government property simply by having a contract number than the dealer had to be pretty ignorant of night vision and someone I'd not trust to use a can of dust off on my lenses.




Dino1130  [Team Member]
5/1/2011 12:59:33 PM
Well, the milspec tube game is tough as with anything that was originally bought and paid for by the US Gov. I don't know exactly how the process works and I know lots of used gear gets sent off to LEO agencies via various programs. Some of this gear ultimately winds up in the consumer market. I am sure the Gov makes mistakes in their records as to what was legally released and what was not.

Many people, including myself, are pretty reluctant to discuss milspec tubes 100 % openly because of the foggy nature of the issue. Nobody wants to risk losing gear. Without naming names, suffice it to say MANY people that post in the forums own milspec tubes of varying degrees of quality and age. Right or wrong the Gov can make your life a miserable hell and sometimes they bully people into cooperating. Nobody likes a thief and if someone truly is stealing gear from our soldiers and selling it I fully support them going to jail for it.

At the end of the day all of our tax dollars paid for this gear. I don't look at a guy that unknowingly purchased some stolen milspec gear as a thief. Confiscations do happen which is why I recommend people stay away from night vision with a NSN and contract number. You, me, and many others understand the risks and know how the game is played. We are a different type and in that I will say it is every mans choice as to what he will or won't buy. When the man knocked on my door for a PVS-4 lens I handed it over with a smile and told him to have a nice day. No whining about it because I knew the risk when I bought it. I feel sad for the ones that did not understand the risk. All I really have to say about the issue.

For the record my two favorite tubes are regular filmed Omni IV tubes and are not autogated. They are 11 years old and I have the latest and greatest Omni VII autogated but still always use my Omni IV. Many times when we discuss specs we are splitting hairs. Almost anyone here, in truth would do fine with Omni IV or above. I gave up on the tube chase a good while back. I now like to play with older gear because it is just what I like. I like things like Star-tron and Varo. They made really good quality things back then and cost was not the driving factor.

ETA : Unfortunately weight was not a driving factor either. With quality usually comes weight !
TNVC  [Industry Partner]
5/1/2011 5:19:52 PM
Originally Posted By RustedAce:

Originally Posted By TNVC:
Originally Posted By RustedAce:

Originally Posted By fordkicksass:
Originally Posted By RustedAce:
Happened to me with an MTM. Guy had a fake ebay store and everything.



Just buy from a reputable store like TNVC or Rainier etc.


If you're referring to an Insight MTM, then OUCH!!

It cost me about 2 times as much as I paid for the unit in lost wages when CID flew my back from AFG to answer three questions at the trial.

They subpoenaed me from a forward FOB and made me fly all the way back to America, even though they had 20 other witnesses.



Wow, just wow you went through this.

Yeah, it was pretty tragically funny, my company and my client wrote letters to CID explaining where I was at, and how hard it would be for me to come in, and that they would gladly set up a video conference, or have a .mil officer at the base take my statements etc.

CIDs response was basically "HOW DARE YOU CLAIM THIS IS MORE IMPORTANT!!!!!!"

They asked me:

Is this the unit? Yeah

Who did you buy it from? Ebay store such and such

Do you know if its this guy? No, I paid through paypal to ebay whatever

That was it!




I basically only buy now from industry partners here.



Guess they didn't believe in official over the phone DEPO's either...That's still admissible last I knew.
karma  [Team Member]
5/1/2011 5:54:27 PM
Originally Posted By compasscall:
Originally Posted By pdm: Compasscall...I appreciate your passion but to be quite honest there's no longer any doubt in my mind that the tube that I possess is US DoD property.


Since it is still U.S. Government Property, it would then have to be considered stolen. It nice to at least know it's stolen then that your getting jerked around by someone wanting a freebie.

Originally Posted By pdm:The salient point is that it's become apparent that these tubes were NEVER sold as a commercial product and ONLY sold to the USG.


This in no way indicates that such equipment is stolen. Because it was once U.S. gov. property doesn't mean that it always is nor still is.A couple years ago there was a fellow in SoCal that was getting huge numbers of F4949G/TG and associated support equipment through DRMO. The goggles still had their ident plates intact and U.S. Government Property imprint on the PAS, these units contained tubes that where just as current as your tube. Many individuals and dealers bought these units. One of the dealers that purchased from this fellow, at one time had pictures of one of these units up on their website with the set labels (not official ident labels) still attached to the sides of the tube housings. That same set is still up but these white set labels have been removed though traces of adhesive from those labels is still visible. These units, though purchased with DoD funds and having at one time been the property of the DoD are not still considered U.S. Gov Property nor considered stolen equipment. Just because a piece of equipment has a contract #, NSN or U.S. Government Property insignia in no way indicate the equipment is stolen. However, if what you have is a stolen piece of equipment then your right for returning it regardless the cost to you. As stated before, what was once Gov. Property does not equate to Stolen Gov. Property.

ETA: In all fairness, I picked up a few of those F4949G/TG's from him personally and spent a couple evening with him and his family. He and his wife where hilarious, they had two pet raccoons that loved to go swimming, what a surprise. Also found out that domesticated Raccoons are not the friendliest creatures and have some pretty wicked claws. The Biggest surprise to me though in regards to the equipment and who some of the buyers of this equipment where. It was also only the second time that I'd directly seen that dealers buy DRMO from second parties.


Originally Posted By pdm: Knowing what I now know I'd say, with certainty, that this is a stolen tube.


I only know what you've posted and other than guessing it's stolen even when the claimed NCIS agent states otherwise, is there any factual proof indicating the tube is in fact stolen and by this I don't mean was it at one time purchased with DoD funds or having Contracts # or an NSN? There's a big difference between a stolen item and an item that at one time belonged to another.

If you had received a call and said agent stated that you where in possession of stolen equipment my take would be a little different, this has happened many times but never have I heard of it happening in your case


Originally Posted By pdm:PCR: 2011
Halo: 0.94
EBI: 1.73
Res: 72
FOM: 2059.2
S/N: 28.6
Tube Gain: 68,150
System Gain: 30 to 7320
Image Quality: Clean



PCR is low, I'd look at something with a PCR > 2200

In my opinion the EBI on that tube is insanely high, I wouldn't even look at a tube with an EBI value higher than 1.00 and would look for a tube with an EBI value < .50

S/N is pretty good but you can find a tube with S/N > 30





Everyone raise their hand if they think Compasscall is a bit picky.
Dino1130  [Team Member]
5/1/2011 11:00:20 PM
That said, I am picky as well so I can't rake him over the coals on it. Stan has a pet peeve on EBI which I understand because of his astronomy adventures.
Barliman  [Team Member]
5/1/2011 11:13:58 PM

Let any of us who would not be as picky step forward!



Bueller ............ Bueller?
compasscall  [Member]
5/2/2011 6:16:04 AM
Originally Posted By karma:Everyone raise their hand if they think Compasscall is a bit picky.


^Frickin hilarious^

So I asked my wife if I'm a bit picky when it comes to NV, all she could do was laugh. Guess she's had one to many tubes to look through.

pdm  [Team Member]
5/2/2011 12:39:04 PM
@ compasscall....
My first question would be by what means the agent is authorized to seize what so far has been determined to be a lawfully obtained article.


Can you please provide a retail source for the aforementioned tube? I'd like to provide that information to the investigating agent for discussion. Essentially I'm wondering if you could give specific information where this exact tube might be legally purchased for consumer use.. The more specific the better, e.g. company name and POC, if possible.

compasscall  [Member]
5/3/2011 2:46:03 AM
Originally Posted By pdm:
@ compasscall....
My first question would be by what means the agent is authorized to seize what so far has been determined to be a lawfully obtained article.


Can you please provide a retail source for the aforementioned tube? I'd like to provide that information to the investigating agent for discussion. Essentially I'm wondering if you could give specific information where this exact tube might be legally purchased for consumer use.. The more specific the better, e.g. company name and POC, if possible.



You bet I will. Below you will find a link taking you to retailer that actually lists used mil-spec tubes (just like yours) as an option in their systems:

http://nightvisionastronomy.com/ordering/index.html

Contact Name: Douglas Baum

Contact Email: doug@nightvisionastronomy.com

The supplier to the linked retailer also has a website but doesn't advertise such tubes. He does however occasionally list them on Ebay. Since that supplier offers products that compete with the NV site sponsor I'll have to leave out any direct reference.

One important point that make your tube different: Your tube, by you own admission, is STOLEN U.S. Government Property. There is nothing legitimate about possessing such a tube. The only way for you to have a tube that is stilll Government Property would be because it was removed from Government inventory through unlawful means i.e. STOLEN

You have said you know it's stolen but have you had a chance to ask for documented evidence as to why the tube is considered current U.S. Government Property despite the admission of the agent that there is no reason to believe it's stolen?




Pacs  [Team Member]
5/3/2011 11:52:41 AM
Not to make light of your issue.

I bet you hope Ziva comes to take your tube.


sardo_67  [Member]
5/3/2011 12:07:25 PM
What's a "MTM"
fsjdw2  [Team Member]
5/3/2011 12:18:56 PM
so a guy that may or may not be NCIS wants what may or may not be his tube back. I would require several various methods of verifications of NCIS connection.
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