What BP Substitute are you using, and why?

I've been using smokeless powder in my Savage for several years now.

Last week, I found that Green Mountain was running a sale on one of their LRH replacement barrels. I couldn't pass it up.

Well, a replacement barrel is useless without a caplock to stick it on, so I found a steal on a used T/C Renegade.

Now I have a nice 1-28" twist .50 caplock carbine.

I go to buy some powder.......wow, there were 4 or 5 different varieties of substitutes at the local fun store.

What are you using, and why?

Goex. Accept no substitutes.

....this...or Swiss

It's not exactly difficult to make your own...

Just sayin...

Poor folks got poor ways.

Although in some areas, black powder is hard to find. Alot of stores won't handle it and go with bp substitutes instead. Higher flashpoint with the subs so it's safer to store.

There are at least two or three places I can think of off the top of my head which sell as little as 5 lb of real black and you can have it shipped direct to your door in the lower 48. As far as safe to store, I'd worry more about the half full can of lawnmower gas or propane tank for the grill in the garage than I would about black powder. I have a buddy who uses an old refrigerator to brew beer in, the insulation helps keep a constant temp for the yeast, and since it no longer runs he stores his BP in the freezer section, well insulated and would very likley survive the house burning down around it.

The higher ignition temps also mean it is harder/less consistent to ignite in a firearm.

I have found that it is almost impossible to get good ignition with anything other than black powder in a breech loader like the 1859 sharps and accuracy tends to suffer in whatever you use it in.

Then, I also noted that I would very quickly get flash rust if using pyrodex, while I could wait until the end of the day to clean with black powder.

FInally, I noted the fouling tends to be less with substitutes, but the fouling that is there is much harder, so a blow tube is much less effective in a BPCR or breech loading paper cartridge rifle and you have to dry brush the barrel much more frequently in a muzzle loader.

So in short, I have zero use for and nothing good to say about BP substitutes.

+1 Subs are not accurate in some rifles. Many do not like hard cast bullets. By this, I mean you can't hit a pie plate at 100Y.

BP subs are a convenient solution to non-existent problem.

Black powder shooting can't be made idiot-proof, nor should it. There is an inherent level of skill required to successfully load and fire a muzzle loader safely. If you can't handle and store BP according to centuries-old practices, and accept the responsibilities involved, then you should stick to shooting factory ammunition in a modern firearm. It is what it is, learn it or leave it alone.

No sub I've ever seen comes without some sort of negative side effect. None. Period.

Real black powder is safe when handled and stored correctly. It does not harm firearms without some sort of operator neglect.

It's the easiest thing in the world to clean up after, it literally washes off with water. If you can't get your gun clean then you are doing it wrong!

Go black or go home!

Ok, now that we have all this jibberish out of the way, does anybody care to tell me what substitute they're using?

You were given the best advice possible.

Barring that, be aware that caplocks do not play nice with subs, and pellets in particular.

Whatever you use, stick to the granulated stuff. Sometimes even this is problematic, you will just have to find one that will function. Pellets generally require something like shotgun primer ignition or they don't even go bang.

If there weren't issues with subs, so many people wouldn't be recommending against them.

That's the only advice I can give that falls within your limited parameters.

Good luck and good shooting.

You literally just got the best advice we can give you. Substitute powders will work in inline rifles, and some people even use them in sidelocks like the Renegade. I tried just that, with Triple Seven FFg, and found that ignition was inconsistent, fouling was harder and every bit as corrosive. Since subs burn hotter, you're more likely to burn through patching material or get leading when using conicals.

In a side lock rifle, there is no advantage to using anything besides real black powder. Yes, it is harder to find, but the performance is in every way superior.

<crickets>.................................................................................................





(In all seriousness... There really is no worthwhile substitute for using actual properly-manufactured black powder in a 'black powder' firearm. Those who have tried both know this, and that is why it is very unlikely that you will receive any kind of a positive response in regards to your query.)

...and for safety's sake - please stop using 'smokeless' powder in your Savage least you become seriously injured or worse...'smokeless' powder's expansion rate is simply too rapid for safe use in a weapon designed for use with black powder.

Just say'n...
FlDiveCop71


Eta: I took the liberty of correcting your "jibberish"...

A few things:

First, this is a tech forum. If someone asks a question you can't answer, DON'T ANSWER.

Second, if you must answer, don't say stupid things - like what I quoted above. You're just demonstrating your own ignorance.

Third, I'm well aware of the issues with subs - and I'm also well aware of the shortcomings of black powder itself. It's easy to ignite......that's a bout its only advantage.

Fourth....is there anyone on this fourm who actually is aware of what's going on with the use of substitutes in caplocks and wants to comment, or should I just continue going to the other fourms where I'm actually getting advice, and write off the chances of a bunch of AR people knowing anything about muzzeloaders?

I've been considering buying another inline since I ditched my Genesis. In researching powders, a lot of people seem to like Blackhorn 209. I have no idea if it will work in a caplock, it is granulated at least. Supposed to be non-corrosive.

BH 209 isn't supposed to ignite well in caplocks, but at least a few people have been duplexing it (using a booster charge of a different substitute) and getting good results. Yes, the manufacturer approves of this.

I've read mixed reviews on almost everything else. You'd think it would be easier to make a substitute that works.....

As I posted above, I have tried Triple 7 in a TC Renegade caplock, just like your own, except a 1:48 twist. Myself, and others here, have walked down this path before. You can pretty much ask anyone who shoots their sidelock muzzleloader often enough to actually get to know it, the issues with substitute powders in sidelocks are well known and wide spread. I'll spell out the problems I have had personally or observed first hand with substitute powders.

Ignition was inconsistent. Triple 7 cost me a shot on a big fat doe, due to a misfire. Cap went off, main charge didn't. The flash channel was clear, I'm no rookie at muzzleloading. The same thing has happened multiple times at the range and in the field to myself and many other people, and the higher ignition temperature of substitute powders is the common theme.

There was a very pronounced and very hard "crud ring" right where the bullet seated after every shot. If you weren't careful, you could get a patch jag stuck pretty good. There was no difference in how fast corrosion would set in. I have never had that same effect with black powder, I get a pretty even coating of fouling throughout, and the fouling is softer.

My hunting buddy has an inline and shoots pellets. We went to the range a month or so ago, to make sure he was still sighted in. He had two boxes of pellets, one from last year, stored in a closet, and one from this year. Last year's pellets were trashed. When they did go off, (about 50% of the time) they were not shooting full power. You could see the pellets shoot out of the barrel and land smoldering in the grass. Opened up the new box of pellets, and they ran great.

I ordered my last batch of Goex 2 years ago, and one can in particular has ridden around in the cab of my truck, in a tupperware bin in the back of my truck, taken a few humid trips to the range over the summer, been out in the winter, and generally seen hell. I'm down to the last of that can, and it still shoots the same as the day I opened it. Try that with any substitute powder and let me know how it works out.

The last category where real black powder whips the everloving shit out of every competitor is price. The gun shop a few towns over sells Goex for $15 a pound. Pyrodex is $20 anywhere you go, maybe found cheaper on sale, and that Blackhorn 209 is $30-$40 per 10 ounces!

I don't know why anyone in their right mind would run duplex loads of Blackhorn 209 and black powder or pyrodex. The reason Blackhorn is so expensive (other than brand hype) is that it's supposed to be non-corrosive. If you run a duplex load with a corrosive powder, you've completely defeated the purpose of paying almost a dollar a shot just for the fancy powder.

Now, I don't know why you're in here pissing into the wind, trying to tell us all how stupid we are for trying many different powders and settling on the one that works best in our humble opinions. You asked a powder question, you got a powder answer. There is no powder that works better in a sidelock muzzleloader than real black powder. There isn't even a powder that works adequately well, in this shooter's opinion. For a sidelock, real black is perfection, incapable of being improved upon. I'm sorry if it wasn't what you wanted to hear, but if you already had your mind made up about powder, why ask?

Who mentioned BP or pyrodex?

And considering what people here have invested in their AR addiction, what does it really matter if powder costs a little more, in order to be able to load and shoot several times without cleaning, or even be able to hunt several days without a detailed cleaning before you corrode your gun?

I don't think I'm the one who's mind is already made up here......

Subs tend to be more corosive than real black. I only had personal expirience w/ Pyrodex corroding one gun before I switched back to black. Real black isn't as corrosive as some people think it is. My story:

I shoot on my lunch hour. When I shot my 1860 Colt with black I'd finish shooting at 1pm and clean after dinner at 7 pm. Did it for years w/o issues. Then one time I couldn't find black in the store so I thought I'd try the miracle of Pyrodex. Used the same shooting and cleaning schedule. By 7pm my bore was frosted with the Pyrodex.

As an example of how noncorosive real black is: A fellow I know shoots his Colt SAAs almost exclusively w/ black. Often he doesn't clean his guns for weeks. He stores them in his air conditioned house and has no issues shooting one weekend and then shooting the next w/o cleaning. His guns are not pitted or damaged in any way. He only opens up the guns to clean the internals once a year. I choose to clean more often but his expirience tells me the corosiveness of real black is overblown in the press and "common knowlege".

You yourself mentioned Blackhorn and a booster of a different substitute. As Blackhorn is the only non-corrosive substitute I am aware of, that means you'll be cleaning. And cost does matter to me, I have a 4 month old.

And brother, I freely admit that I am as purist as my budget allows. I haven't bought a tin of caps in a long time. I switched to a flintlock and haven't looked back. You could certainly say my mind is made up.

First - Yes - this is a tech forum. So leave the attitude and insinuations at the door.
Second, The advice I gave was not ignorant. It merely depends on which model Savage you happen to be shooting. (which you never specified in the OP) FYI - the Savage model 10ML-BP is not designed to be used with 'smokeless' powders.

Source Article

...and lastly, if you're not satisfied with the responses that you've received here, then by all means, feel free to check out the advice of other forums....Maybe give "TheHighRoad.Org" a try, but don't be surprised if you hear the same type of advice as you've already received...

Hope this helps you...
FlDiveCop71

Eta:Exactly what shortcomings are you referring to here?(highlighted in red above)

Putting your dodge-the-point diatribe aside, let's see:

-It's corrosive
-It fouls quickly and leads to poor accuracy if one doesn't (or can't) take time to patch between shots
-Said fouling can cause ignition trouble, rendering your rifle a mere stick.
-It has a horribly low energy content; velocities are low (admittedly, most subs aren't nearly the improvement their marketing propaganda suggests).

If it was all that great, we wouldn't have abandoned it a century ago; the only reason people use BP now, for the most part (notwithstanding hobbyists) is to take advantage of extended hunting seasons, and speaking for myself, to that end, I'm going to use the most powerful propellant possible. (As a side note, the savage (and OBVIOUSLY mine is the smokeless model) has ruined me here......clean as a pin, and you get to watch your deer fall when you shoot it)

As for subs:

Pyrodex
T7
Black Mag 3
White Hot
Blackhorn 209
Cleanshot
Jim Shockey's Gold


And I'm sure there are more I'm leaving out. I'm going to try the BH 209 with a booster charge of JSG - probably 85/5 or 95/5, to start with. If it doesn't work out, I have another inline (Knight Master Hunter) I can use it in. I suppose the real question, though, is to wonder why someone hasn't actually came up with a substitute that solves all the problems of BP.



edit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5lmjSHJNxk

Leave the insults out of the tech forums (arowneragain).

I'm hoping you do just that.

Pyrodex RS would probably be your best bet. Triple Seven requires higher temperatures to ignite and is only reliable with 209 ignition systems. I don't know why anyone would even try T7 in a caplock.

I spent 10 years going back and forth between Pyrodex RS and Goex FFG in a T/C White Mountain Carbine. Results were similar enough to pretty much classify them as equal. When igniting with a #11 percussion cap, the black powder will ignite a little easier.

Accept no substitutes, use real black powder.

I've tried Jim Shockey's Gold with decent results in a Traditions Hawken.

Seemed pretty consistant. No failures to fire, and I cleaned up as soon as I got home. It really is more corrosive than black powder, because of the salts it os made from.

I would still recommend honest Black Powder, but these are my results with a 50yd sight in. First shots were off to the left. Adjusted front sight, then fired five to be sure.

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