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Hunting with an 1861 Springfield 3-band .58 caliber percussion rifle..
8/20/2010 5:25:30 PM
Of the type used by both sides in the Civil War...
What are the reasonable limits on what can be hunted...Whitetail? Elk? Hogs?
Thinking about trying to take advantage of the muzzle loader early season, but with a historical replica...
Hollow miniball? Thoughts?
What are the reasonable limits on what can be hunted...Whitetail? Elk? Hogs?
Thinking about trying to take advantage of the muzzle loader early season, but with a historical replica...
Hollow miniball? Thoughts?
8/20/2010 8:18:18 PM
If you put a a.58 cal hole through the heart of anything walking on earth,,, it will go down.
8/20/2010 8:21:02 PM
I'm no expert, but consider using it like how you would use a 20 gauge w/ slugs.
8/23/2010 9:21:38 AM
Originally Posted By Lee308:
If you put a a.58 cal hole through the heart of anything walking on earth,,, it will go down.
If you put a a.58 cal hole through the heart of anything walking on earth,,, it will go down.
Originally Posted By Postal0311:
I'm no expert, but consider using it like how you would use a 20 gauge w/ slugs.
I'm no expert, but consider using it like how you would use a 20 gauge w/ slugs.
Agree completely with both of the above.
I BP hunt with a .54 cal inline or side lock. With that big slug of lead you really don't have to worry about expansion. I would pick whatever shoots best in your gun.
The whole key to using it is how far away can you place your shots?
My standard is the furthest distance you can keep 5 shots on a 9" paper plate from the standing position is the furthest distance you should be shooting at deer. For some folks that's 25 yards and for others it's 250 yards or more.
8/23/2010 9:37:15 AM
Thats exactly what I use - I love it. Accurate and will knock the shit out of a deer.
8/25/2010 10:35:13 PM
Thanks for the replies. It's between the Springfield or an Enfield 1853 repro.
After reading quite a few bad reviews on the Armi Sport, looks like it will be a Pedersoli most likely.
I would have thought a rifled musket would have been more accurate than a shotgun though.
8/26/2010 11:39:35 AM
You are correct, a rifled musked is MUCH more accurate at longer ranges than any smoth bore. Take the time to develop a load and practice some and 100 yards or better is not out of line. Just for giggles and grins some buddies and I routinely shoot at and hit a 12" dianeter gong offhand at 100 yards, we all are shooting flintlocks.
8/29/2010 9:19:39 AM
The "shoot it like a 20ga slug gun" comment is off the mark.
A 525 grain minnie ball at 850-900 fps has a great deal of momentum so penetration and knock down power are more than adequate for deer and would do a very nice job on Elk with proper placement.
Accuracy wise a well made rifled musket with a load it is happy with is capable of very good accuracy and 3" groups at 100 yards should be easy to achieve even with stock iron sights. In my opinion the responsible effective range on deer is easily 200 yards if the shooter can do his or her part.
My preference for hunting with a reproduction rifled musket is the Remington Zouve due to the shorter barrel. It balances very well is short enough to handle in brush and is just as accrurate at the 200 yard ranges we are talking about.
In any case, a .58 caliber miniie when loaded in a traditional civil war style paper catridge is pretty much the ultimate speed loader and follow up shots can be done very quickly (it was after all designed to do exactly that)
A 525 grain minnie ball at 850-900 fps has a great deal of momentum so penetration and knock down power are more than adequate for deer and would do a very nice job on Elk with proper placement.
Accuracy wise a well made rifled musket with a load it is happy with is capable of very good accuracy and 3" groups at 100 yards should be easy to achieve even with stock iron sights. In my opinion the responsible effective range on deer is easily 200 yards if the shooter can do his or her part.
My preference for hunting with a reproduction rifled musket is the Remington Zouve due to the shorter barrel. It balances very well is short enough to handle in brush and is just as accrurate at the 200 yard ranges we are talking about.
In any case, a .58 caliber miniie when loaded in a traditional civil war style paper catridge is pretty much the ultimate speed loader and follow up shots can be done very quickly (it was after all designed to do exactly that)
8/29/2010 3:35:23 PM
Originally Posted By DakotaFAL:
The "shoot it like a 20ga slug gun" comment is off the mark.
A 525 grain minnie ball at 850-900 fps has a great deal of momentum so penetration and knock down power are more than adequate for deer and would do a very nice job on Elk with proper placement.
Accuracy wise a well made rifled musket with a load it is happy with is capable of very good accuracy and 3" groups at 100 yards should be easy to achieve even with stock iron sights. In my opinion the responsible effective range on deer is easily 200 yards if the shooter can do his or her part.
My preference for hunting with a reproduction rifled musket is the Remington Zouve due to the shorter barrel. It balances very well is short enough to handle in brush and is just as accrurate at the 200 yard ranges we are talking about.
In any case, a .58 caliber miniie when loaded in a traditional civil war style paper catridge is pretty much the ultimate speed loader and follow up shots can be done very quickly (it was after all designed to do exactly that)
The "shoot it like a 20ga slug gun" comment is off the mark.
A 525 grain minnie ball at 850-900 fps has a great deal of momentum so penetration and knock down power are more than adequate for deer and would do a very nice job on Elk with proper placement.
Accuracy wise a well made rifled musket with a load it is happy with is capable of very good accuracy and 3" groups at 100 yards should be easy to achieve even with stock iron sights. In my opinion the responsible effective range on deer is easily 200 yards if the shooter can do his or her part.
My preference for hunting with a reproduction rifled musket is the Remington Zouve due to the shorter barrel. It balances very well is short enough to handle in brush and is just as accrurate at the 200 yard ranges we are talking about.
In any case, a .58 caliber miniie when loaded in a traditional civil war style paper catridge is pretty much the ultimate speed loader and follow up shots can be done very quickly (it was after all designed to do exactly that)
At this point, after watching Gods and Generals again, i have definitely decided I want to hunt Texas Whitetail with a CW reproduction ML this winter.
Who makes a good Remmy zouave repro? Euro Arms?
8/30/2010 12:16:05 PM
I would suggest a Mississippi in 54, or even 58 as a better alternative to the Zouave. But Im always more worried about historical accuracy in my BP weapons first, and modern day "Performance" second.
8/31/2010 10:53:36 AM
Originally Posted By PSYWAR1-0:
I would suggest a Mississippi in 54, or even 58 as a better alternative to the Zouave. But Im always more worried about historical accuracy in my BP weapons first, and modern day "Performance" second.
I would suggest a Mississippi in 54, or even 58 as a better alternative to the Zouave. But Im always more worried about historical accuracy in my BP weapons first, and modern day "Performance" second.
That is important to me too..will see who makes those. Reading more good things about Euro Arms and Pedersoli than Armi Sport in net reviews.
9/1/2010 7:19:18 AM
Originally Posted By _DR:
That is important to me too..will see who makes those. Reading more good things about Euro Arms and Pedersoli than Armi Sport in net reviews.
Originally Posted By PSYWAR1-0:
I would suggest a Mississippi in 54, or even 58 as a better alternative to the Zouave. But Im always more worried about historical accuracy in my BP weapons first, and modern day "Performance" second.
I would suggest a Mississippi in 54, or even 58 as a better alternative to the Zouave. But Im always more worried about historical accuracy in my BP weapons first, and modern day "Performance" second.
That is important to me too..will see who makes those. Reading more good things about Euro Arms and Pedersoli than Armi Sport in net reviews.
To expand that, the Zouave was a period piece, but its use by reenactors exceeds its use in the period.
9/2/2010 2:06:46 PM
I have hit 6" ceramic tiles at 100 yards from the offhand position with regularity with a 3 band Enfield and Enfield carbine.
60 grains of FFg and a 500 grain minie was standard civil war load for combat. Look at the damage that load did over the course of the war.
60 grains of FFg and a 500 grain minie was standard civil war load for combat. Look at the damage that load did over the course of the war.
9/13/2010 3:45:18 AM
Originally Posted By sbrider:
I have hit 6" ceramic tiles at 100 yards from the offhand position with regularity with a 3 band Enfield and Enfield carbine.
60 grains of FFg and a 500 grain minie was standard civil war load for combat. Look at the damage that load did over the course of the war.
I have hit 6" ceramic tiles at 100 yards from the offhand position with regularity with a 3 band Enfield and Enfield carbine.
60 grains of FFg and a 500 grain minie was standard civil war load for combat. Look at the damage that load did over the course of the war.
That's the load I use in my Zouave rifle. It's an Armi Sport. Not a bad rifle. I was expecting more recoil than what I received when I first shot it. I'll be using it for Deer and Hog this year. Five hundred grains of lead is bound to knock down whatever you hit with it as long as you place the shot correctly. I need to get out and see if I can put a little more powder in it and see what my rifle truly prefers. I only had 25 yards to play with and it was hitting exactly where I was aiming.
9/13/2010 6:09:59 AM
YEARS ago I use to hunt lower Michigan with a Parker Hale 1853 rifle musket. Furthest shot I ever made was using 90gr FFF behind a 525gr mini-ball, droped a nice Whitetale buck at 180 paces. That mini-ball punched clean through both shoulders of that buck.
9/25/2010 6:52:43 PM
I have a vintgage Parker Hale (70's era), Enfield Rifle, 2 band and I am very pleased with the rifle. It has never had a misfire in hundreds upon hundres of rounds. You might chekc that out prior to buying a Zouave. The Zouave was made during the war, but according to much litature, they were never issued.
9/25/2010 10:27:29 PM
Some raondom responses to various posts above:
1. 90% of civil war casualties were inflicted by the rifled musket. Through and through penetration was the norm and it woudl shatter any ones it hit on the way through. It will do exactly the same on deer sized game and will break it down and anchor it with a solid hit in the vitals or shoulder area.
2. Recoil with a 500-525 gr traditional minnie ball at 800-850 fps is more of a "push" and has no similarity to the much sharper feeling recoil you get with a high velocity rifle that might have identical momentum with a lighter, higher velocity bullet. Most shooters will not have issues with recoil.
3. I agree the Zouve was not widely used in the civil war and lacks the "correctness" of a Springfiel, Enfield, etc. But it is comparatively light, short and accurate and is well suited to hunting - unllike the much longer Springfield and Enfield infantry rifles.
4. I started hunting with a muzzle loader with a .50 and almost immediately wanted a .54, then fell in love with the .58. In a muzzle loader diameter and mass = stopping power as you will never have much in terms of velocity. Bigger is better (within reason, and .69-.75 is too large in my opinion) and a .58 cal 525 grain minnie ball is very hard to top for a muzzle loading hunting round.
I also have an 1859 sharps infantry rifle reproduction in .54 caliber (the orignals were .52) and while I love that rifle, in terms of stopping power it is not equal to a .58. Fortuantely it is very accurate and makes up ground on bullet placement.
1. 90% of civil war casualties were inflicted by the rifled musket. Through and through penetration was the norm and it woudl shatter any ones it hit on the way through. It will do exactly the same on deer sized game and will break it down and anchor it with a solid hit in the vitals or shoulder area.
2. Recoil with a 500-525 gr traditional minnie ball at 800-850 fps is more of a "push" and has no similarity to the much sharper feeling recoil you get with a high velocity rifle that might have identical momentum with a lighter, higher velocity bullet. Most shooters will not have issues with recoil.
3. I agree the Zouve was not widely used in the civil war and lacks the "correctness" of a Springfiel, Enfield, etc. But it is comparatively light, short and accurate and is well suited to hunting - unllike the much longer Springfield and Enfield infantry rifles.
4. I started hunting with a muzzle loader with a .50 and almost immediately wanted a .54, then fell in love with the .58. In a muzzle loader diameter and mass = stopping power as you will never have much in terms of velocity. Bigger is better (within reason, and .69-.75 is too large in my opinion) and a .58 cal 525 grain minnie ball is very hard to top for a muzzle loading hunting round.
I also have an 1859 sharps infantry rifle reproduction in .54 caliber (the orignals were .52) and while I love that rifle, in terms of stopping power it is not equal to a .58. Fortuantely it is very accurate and makes up ground on bullet placement.
9/29/2010 3:22:07 AM
I would think that within a reasonable distance limit, there isn't anything on this continent that you couldn't knock the everloving shit out of with a .58 rifled musket firing a 500+ grain minnie. For whitetails, dead soft lead will be just the trick. If you were wanting wapati or bear I would buy a mould and experiment with hard cast to see if you get acceptable accuracy. You would certainly get plenty of penetration.
9/29/2010 10:47:54 PM
Caliber .58 sounds like a winner to me.
One thing I can't figure out is why, in Texas, in counties that have a muzzleloader only season, they put it at the end of the general season, rather than at the beginning like the archery season. Seems like the deer are all going to be wary after being shot at for three months, at least on public lands where i will be hunting.
At least there will be less pressure I suppose.
10/2/2010 7:20:49 AM
Originally Posted By kevthebassman:
If you were wanting wapati or bear I would buy a mould and experiment with hard cast to see if you get acceptable accuracy. You would certainly get plenty of penetration.
If you were wanting wapati or bear I would buy a mould and experiment with hard cast to see if you get acceptable accuracy. You would certainly get plenty of penetration.
Don't even think about it. Anything but pure lead is a disaster for a mini-ball. It will not expand to fill the rifling. The point of the mini is easy rapid loading through loose fit and then expanding to the rifling. Some years back some of the Italian importers brought in pre-cast mini's that were obviously wheel weights. You couldn't hit a flock of barns at 50 yards.
You can make a hardened cast patched round ball work - and this was common in Africa on dangerous game in the 19th century before large bore cartridges where developed. It works best if the rifling isn't too fast - a "round ball only" rifle with 1 turn in 150 ball diameters as recommended by Forsyth in 1860.
But make your mini-balls pure lead only for best results in "War Between the States" era rifled muskets
I like the 1856 Enfield 2 band short rifle or "sargent's fusil", which was very popular with Southern infantry units.
10/2/2010 10:34:05 AM
Originally Posted By Brazos_Jack:
Don't even think about it. Anything but pure lead is a disaster for a mini-ball. It will not expand to fill the rifling. The point of the mini is easy rapid loading through loose fit and then expanding to the rifling. Some years back some of the Italian importers brought in pre-cast mini's that were obviously wheel weights. You couldn't hit a flock of barns at 50 yards.
You can make a hardened cast patched round ball work - and this was common in Africa on dangerous game in the 19th century before large bore cartridges where developed. It works best if the rifling isn't too fast - a "round ball only" rifle with 1 turn in 150 ball diameters as recommended by Forsyth in 1860.
But make your mini-balls pure lead only for best results in "War Between the States" era rifled muskets
I like the 1856 Enfield 2 band short rifle or "sargent's fusil", which was very popular with Southern infantry units.
Originally Posted By kevthebassman:
If you were wanting wapati or bear I would buy a mould and experiment with hard cast to see if you get acceptable accuracy. You would certainly get plenty of penetration.
If you were wanting wapati or bear I would buy a mould and experiment with hard cast to see if you get acceptable accuracy. You would certainly get plenty of penetration.
Don't even think about it. Anything but pure lead is a disaster for a mini-ball. It will not expand to fill the rifling. The point of the mini is easy rapid loading through loose fit and then expanding to the rifling. Some years back some of the Italian importers brought in pre-cast mini's that were obviously wheel weights. You couldn't hit a flock of barns at 50 yards.
You can make a hardened cast patched round ball work - and this was common in Africa on dangerous game in the 19th century before large bore cartridges where developed. It works best if the rifling isn't too fast - a "round ball only" rifle with 1 turn in 150 ball diameters as recommended by Forsyth in 1860.
But make your mini-balls pure lead only for best results in "War Between the States" era rifled muskets
I like the 1856 Enfield 2 band short rifle or "sargent's fusil", which was very popular with Southern infantry units.
Any good sources of ready made minnie balls you could recommend? Not really set up for casting right now. Also do you think it's possible or wise to use the preformed powder pellets you can buy to roll into a paper cartridge with the the minnie?
Now looks like I am deciding between several rifles...the '54 Mississippi, the CS Richmond, the 2 band Enfield, the 3 Band Enfield, the '61 Springfield, and the the Zouave. What I though was going to be an easy choice gets harder the more I learn.
Has anyone ever seen a reproduction of a civil war sniper musket, like this gentleman has in his lap? I have never seen one for sale.
10/2/2010 5:39:46 PM
Track of the Wolf has what you need as far as bullets, as well as many other accessories. The pellets would be a waste of your time and money. They're designed for inline muzzleloaders with 209 shotgun primers. Goex black powder is the real deal. It's what these guns were designed to use, and it's what they work best with. All substitute powders have significantly higher ignition temperatures, which makes them more prone to misfires.
10/3/2010 1:40:26 AM
Originally Posted By kevthebassman:
Track of the Wolf has what you need as far as bullets, as well as many other accessories. The pellets would be a waste of your time and money. They're designed for inline muzzleloaders with 209 shotgun primers. Goex black powder is the real deal. It's what these guns were designed to use, and it's what they work best with. All substitute powders have significantly higher ignition temperatures, which makes them more prone to misfires.
Track of the Wolf has what you need as far as bullets, as well as many other accessories. The pellets would be a waste of your time and money. They're designed for inline muzzleloaders with 209 shotgun primers. Goex black powder is the real deal. It's what these guns were designed to use, and it's what they work best with. All substitute powders have significantly higher ignition temperatures, which makes them more prone to misfires.
I obviously have a lot to learn about these. Good information.
What is the best way to carry a sidelock percussion rifle musket at the ready when hunting?
10/3/2010 1:49:47 AM
Originally Posted By _DR:
Now looks like I am deciding between several rifles...the '54 Mississippi, the CS Richmond, the 2 band Enfield, the 3 Band Enfield, the '61 Springfield, and the the Zouave. What I though was going to be an easy choice gets harder the more I learn.
Has anyone ever seen a reproduction of a civil war sniper musket, like this gentleman has in his lap? I have never seen one for sale.
http://i56.tinypic.com/1si7bt.jpg
Now looks like I am deciding between several rifles...the '54 Mississippi, the CS Richmond, the 2 band Enfield, the 3 Band Enfield, the '61 Springfield, and the the Zouave. What I though was going to be an easy choice gets harder the more I learn.
Has anyone ever seen a reproduction of a civil war sniper musket, like this gentleman has in his lap? I have never seen one for sale.
http://i56.tinypic.com/1si7bt.jpg
For hunting I'd stick with the standard .577/.58 rifled musket using minie balls.
The Enfield sniper rifles used by the South were completely different. They had Whitworth hexagonal rifling and shot special hexagonal bullets. I think a couple of different replica manufacturers have made them at different times. Navy Arms used to import the Parker Hale replica. It used hexagonal cardboard wads under conventional cast grooved grease lubricated .451 dia bullets. Much slower to load than a minie ball but much more accurate.
Parker Hale also made an Enfield .451 "Volunteer" rifle with conventional rifling. It is authentic to the period but I do not think any were ever used in the War Between the States. As slow to load as the Whitwoth but probably doesn't have to be cleaned as often while at the range.
10/3/2010 2:09:07 AM
Jeff of Forefather's Casting ( I found him through the Cast Boolits Forum) offers many sizes of hand cast round balls and minies. Hopefully someone who is better with computers can find him and post his price list.He does a nice job, ships quickly and is a class act. Track gets about $12 for 25 .58 minies...Jeff gets $14 for 50 .58 minies.
I was going to get into casting my own stuff...bought a melting pot, 100 lbs of lead from Rotometal and other odds and ends but it's easier to just order from Jeff.
I just found my order summary from my last order in May: 100 .575 round balls=$23, 100 450gr .58 minies=$28, 100 505gr .58 minies=$34 and 100 730gr .69 minies=$48 Total $133 and free shipping! You can't beat that!
I was going to get into casting my own stuff...bought a melting pot, 100 lbs of lead from Rotometal and other odds and ends but it's easier to just order from Jeff.
I just found my order summary from my last order in May: 100 .575 round balls=$23, 100 450gr .58 minies=$28, 100 505gr .58 minies=$34 and 100 730gr .69 minies=$48 Total $133 and free shipping! You can't beat that!
10/3/2010 11:53:55 AM
Originally Posted By PegasusAirborne:
Jeff of Forefather's Casting ( I found him through the Cast Boolits Forum) offers many sizes of hand cast round balls and minies. Hopefully someone who is better with computers can find him and post his price list.He does a nice job, ships quickly and is a class act. Track gets about $12 for 25 .58 minies...Jeff gets $14 for 50 .58 minies.
I was going to get into casting my own stuff...bought a melting pot, 100 lbs of lead from Rotometal and other odds and ends but it's easier to just order from Jeff.
I just found my order summary from my last order in May: 100 .575 round balls=$23, 100 450gr .58 minies=$28, 100 505gr .58 minies=$34 and 100 730gr .69 minies=$48 Total $133 and free shipping! You can't beat that!
Jeff of Forefather's Casting ( I found him through the Cast Boolits Forum) offers many sizes of hand cast round balls and minies. Hopefully someone who is better with computers can find him and post his price list.He does a nice job, ships quickly and is a class act. Track gets about $12 for 25 .58 minies...Jeff gets $14 for 50 .58 minies.
I was going to get into casting my own stuff...bought a melting pot, 100 lbs of lead from Rotometal and other odds and ends but it's easier to just order from Jeff.
I just found my order summary from my last order in May: 100 .575 round balls=$23, 100 450gr .58 minies=$28, 100 505gr .58 minies=$34 and 100 730gr .69 minies=$48 Total $133 and free shipping! You can't beat that!
You could beat the price per projectile, but only if you shoot a lot and get your own casting equipment.
Here is a link to the vendor you mentioned:
Link
As to carrying your piece, you could go practical and get a modern sling setup, if it doesn't bother your sensibilities. That's what I did. There are other sling options that involve rawhide and tying to your barrel. I'm not too familiar with their usefullness.
10/4/2010 10:31:39 AM
Originally Posted By kevthebassman:
As to carrying your piece, you could go practical and get a modern sling setup, if it doesn't bother your sensibilities. That's what I did. There are other sling options that involve rawhide and tying to your barrel. I'm not too familiar with their usefullness.
As to carrying your piece, you could go practical and get a modern sling setup, if it doesn't bother your sensibilities. That's what I did. There are other sling options that involve rawhide and tying to your barrel. I'm not too familiar with their usefullness.
That's good information to know - but actually I was referring the the state of the action of the weapon.
As you know when hunting, spot and stalk, you usually won't have time to load your weapon, so I was wondering what the best way to carry a sidelock percussion rifle is to have it ready to use at a moment's notice, since they do not have a safety AFAIK. Would you carry it with the lock forward and put the cap on at the last moment, then cock it? Is there a half cock on the springfield like there is on the 1853 Enfield, and could carry at half cock with the cap already installed? That's more where I was headed, not being familiar with these weapons yet.
10/4/2010 12:06:07 PM
Aaaah, ok, I get what you're asking. It's been a while since I've carried a caplock. What I did was take a postage stamp sized piece of leather and put it on the cap, then let the hammer down on it.
I'm actually not sure if that is a safe practice or if you should use the halfcock instead.
I'm actually not sure if that is a safe practice or if you should use the halfcock instead.
10/5/2010 9:57:19 PM
Originally Posted By kevthebassman:
Aaaah, ok, I get what you're asking. It's been a while since I've carried a caplock. What I did was take a postage stamp sized piece of leather and put it on the cap, then let the hammer down on it.
I'm actually not sure if that is a safe practice or if you should use the halfcock instead.
Aaaah, ok, I get what you're asking. It's been a while since I've carried a caplock. What I did was take a postage stamp sized piece of leather and put it on the cap, then let the hammer down on it.
I'm actually not sure if that is a safe practice or if you should use the halfcock instead.
I'll give it a shot (no pun intended).
10/6/2010 12:33:35 AM
10/6/2010 9:56:25 PM
_DR.
PM me your address. I've got some MINI's I cast up from pure lead. I'll send you a few.
Let me know how they work for hunting.
PM me your address. I've got some MINI's I cast up from pure lead. I'll send you a few.
Let me know how they work for hunting.
10/7/2010 12:22:48 PM
The half cock notch is there for three reasons - 1. to allow the shooter to load and prime it with a cap, 2. to catch the hammer if it slips while being cocked by the shooter, and 3. to more or less safely carry the weapon until it is time to cock it and shoot.
Carrying it with the hammer down on a cap sounds like a good idea but it isn't unless the weapon has an inertial firing pin. If the firing pin directly contacts the primer, or in this case the hammer directly contacts the cap, then an impact on the hammer can casue a discharge. Adding the leather piece in betwen hammer and cap just increases the force/shock needed to set it off but it does not eliminate the risk.
Carrying on the half cock notch also has some perils. Visually inspect the notch to ensure it is deep enough to truly hold the hammer and is not just a step that the hammer could be jarred off of. Also, ideally, a half cock nothc should not be "half", but ore like a quarter cock provoding just enough distance to seat the cap, but with as little disance as possible to reduce the impact if the hammer falls on the cap from the half cock position. Some reproduction rifels are properly designed with safe half cock notches while others I have seen are not. Then, as always treat the gun as if it were loaded and ready to fire to ensure that if it does go off, that the weapon won't hit anything important.
My dad managed to shoot himself in the chest with a model 94 with the hammer set on the quarter cock notch., He was carrying it muzzle up on a tractor and it slipped, the hammer hit part of the tractor on the way down, sheared the notch off the hammer and fired with the bullet hitting him just under the rib cage and exiting just below his shoulder. He got lucky, walked a mile and a half home, got medical treatment and survived (with some really interesting x-rays as the bullet fragments continued to spread through his chest over the remaining 50 years of his life.) The moral of the story here is to be prudent, think, and anticipate what could go wrong before it has a chance to do so. And it also explains why my early gun education contained such a stong emphasis on the pros and cons of half cock notches.
Carrying it with the hammer down on a cap sounds like a good idea but it isn't unless the weapon has an inertial firing pin. If the firing pin directly contacts the primer, or in this case the hammer directly contacts the cap, then an impact on the hammer can casue a discharge. Adding the leather piece in betwen hammer and cap just increases the force/shock needed to set it off but it does not eliminate the risk.
Carrying on the half cock notch also has some perils. Visually inspect the notch to ensure it is deep enough to truly hold the hammer and is not just a step that the hammer could be jarred off of. Also, ideally, a half cock nothc should not be "half", but ore like a quarter cock provoding just enough distance to seat the cap, but with as little disance as possible to reduce the impact if the hammer falls on the cap from the half cock position. Some reproduction rifels are properly designed with safe half cock notches while others I have seen are not. Then, as always treat the gun as if it were loaded and ready to fire to ensure that if it does go off, that the weapon won't hit anything important.
My dad managed to shoot himself in the chest with a model 94 with the hammer set on the quarter cock notch., He was carrying it muzzle up on a tractor and it slipped, the hammer hit part of the tractor on the way down, sheared the notch off the hammer and fired with the bullet hitting him just under the rib cage and exiting just below his shoulder. He got lucky, walked a mile and a half home, got medical treatment and survived (with some really interesting x-rays as the bullet fragments continued to spread through his chest over the remaining 50 years of his life.) The moral of the story here is to be prudent, think, and anticipate what could go wrong before it has a chance to do so. And it also explains why my early gun education contained such a stong emphasis on the pros and cons of half cock notches.
10/8/2010 7:29:30 PM
Originally Posted By DakotaFAL:
The half cock notch is there for three reasons - 1. to allow the shooter to load and prime it with a cap, 2. to catch the hammer if it slips while being cocked by the shooter, and 3. to more or less safely carry the weapon until it is time to cock it and shoot.
Carrying it with the hammer down on a cap sounds like a good idea but it isn't unless the weapon has an inertial firing pin. If the firing pin directly contacts the primer, or in this case the hammer directly contacts the cap, then an impact on the hammer can casue a discharge. Adding the leather piece in betwen hammer and cap just increases the force/shock needed to set it off but it does not eliminate the risk.
Carrying on the half cock notch also has some perils. Visually inspect the notch to ensure it is deep enough to truly hold the hammer and is not just a step that the hammer could be jarred off of. Also, ideally, a half cock nothc should not be "half", but ore like a quarter cock provoding just enough distance to seat the cap, but with as little disance as possible to reduce the impact if the hammer falls on the cap from the half cock position. Some reproduction rifels are properly designed with safe half cock notches while others I have seen are not. Then, as always treat the gun as if it were loaded and ready to fire to ensure that if it does go off, that the weapon won't hit anything important.
My dad managed to shoot himself in the chest with a model 94 with the hammer set on the quarter cock notch., He was carrying it muzzle up on a tractor and it slipped, the hammer hit part of the tractor on the way down, sheared the notch off the hammer and fired with the bullet hitting him just under the rib cage and exiting just below his shoulder. He got lucky, walked a mile and a half home, got medical treatment and survived (with some really interesting x-rays as the bullet fragments continued to spread through his chest over the remaining 50 years of his life.) The moral of the story here is to be prudent, think, and anticipate what could go wrong before it has a chance to do so. And it also explains why my early gun education contained such a stong emphasis on the pros and cons of half cock notches.
The half cock notch is there for three reasons - 1. to allow the shooter to load and prime it with a cap, 2. to catch the hammer if it slips while being cocked by the shooter, and 3. to more or less safely carry the weapon until it is time to cock it and shoot.
Carrying it with the hammer down on a cap sounds like a good idea but it isn't unless the weapon has an inertial firing pin. If the firing pin directly contacts the primer, or in this case the hammer directly contacts the cap, then an impact on the hammer can casue a discharge. Adding the leather piece in betwen hammer and cap just increases the force/shock needed to set it off but it does not eliminate the risk.
Carrying on the half cock notch also has some perils. Visually inspect the notch to ensure it is deep enough to truly hold the hammer and is not just a step that the hammer could be jarred off of. Also, ideally, a half cock nothc should not be "half", but ore like a quarter cock provoding just enough distance to seat the cap, but with as little disance as possible to reduce the impact if the hammer falls on the cap from the half cock position. Some reproduction rifels are properly designed with safe half cock notches while others I have seen are not. Then, as always treat the gun as if it were loaded and ready to fire to ensure that if it does go off, that the weapon won't hit anything important.
My dad managed to shoot himself in the chest with a model 94 with the hammer set on the quarter cock notch., He was carrying it muzzle up on a tractor and it slipped, the hammer hit part of the tractor on the way down, sheared the notch off the hammer and fired with the bullet hitting him just under the rib cage and exiting just below his shoulder. He got lucky, walked a mile and a half home, got medical treatment and survived (with some really interesting x-rays as the bullet fragments continued to spread through his chest over the remaining 50 years of his life.) The moral of the story here is to be prudent, think, and anticipate what could go wrong before it has a chance to do so. And it also explains why my early gun education contained such a stong emphasis on the pros and cons of half cock notches.
Wow, glad your Dad is ok after that. Will take that advice to heart.
Can I ask what load/powder/projectile you use for hunting in your ML?
most of the vendors say the reproductions use 60gr of 2F, but Hogdon says 80-100 for the their 2F 777 for .58 Caliber. I'd be curious to know what most people use as a hunting load for deer in their .58 springfields/zouaves/enfields.
10/21/2010 2:08:20 PM
Why do I click on such links. 
Now I'm going to get another .58.
Now I'm going to get another .58.
10/24/2010 4:51:08 PM
Originally Posted By _DR:
Wow, glad your Dad is ok after that. Will take that advice to heart.
Can I ask what load/powder/projectile you use for hunting in your ML?
most of the vendors say the reproductions use 60gr of 2F, but Hogdon says 80-100 for the their 2F 777 for .58 Caliber. I'd be curious to know what most people use as a hunting load for deer in their .58 springfields/zouaves/enfields.
Wow, glad your Dad is ok after that. Will take that advice to heart.
Can I ask what load/powder/projectile you use for hunting in your ML?
most of the vendors say the reproductions use 60gr of 2F, but Hogdon says 80-100 for the their 2F 777 for .58 Caliber. I'd be curious to know what most people use as a hunting load for deer in their .58 springfields/zouaves/enfields.
DR,
Stay away from non-traditional black powders. Triple 7 and Pyrodex are big no-no's. I have used Pyrodex in my Armi Sport 1861 and often times you will get a fail to fire. The cap will fail to ignite the main charge. You will fire, the cap will go off and then you'll have to put on a fresh cap. Meanwhile your deer has ran off from the noise of the cap. Not that big of a deal on the range, but out hunting, if you get a fail to fire you just ruined your whole day. I now only use Goex FFG. The bullet I use is a Lee 500 grain Mini cast from lead I buy off of MidWay USA that is rated at 99.97% pure. This year I will be transitioning to a 460 grain Lyman mould. I have not used this mould yet.
My load is as follows:
- 60 Grains of Goex FFG
- 500 Grain Bullet (Cast from Lee Mould; 99.97% Pure Lead)
- I size my cast bullets to .577, my barrel is actually .579
- Slathered in Crisco (Helps keep fouling soft even after sixty shots of no cleaning)
In my Armi Sport 1861 this is a very accurate load, I can hit a 8.5inchx11 metal plate at 100yards off the bench all day. 500 grains of lead smacking the hanging plate makes for a pretty loud THANG noise. Recoil is mild, it's more of a push, rather than the sharp kick of a 300 Win Mag.
When hunting I keep the musket pointed in a safe direction, half-cocked, with a cap on the nipple. I do not have a sling and the musket can get heavy if you do alot of walking. It is long and cumbersome, especially for dense brush.
If you really get into this hobby, you'll want to have your barrel sized. I size my bullets 0.002 under bore, this combined with the Crisco makes them super easy to load even after a day of heavy shooting. You'll also want to play around with the amount of gun powder you use to see what your musket likes best with the bullet type you are using. Most of the NSSA guys I have spoken too say that 60 is an awful lot for target shooting. I know many of them have perfected loads and the ones I spoke to were using charges in the 40 grains area. 60 Grains will be plenty to take down a deer. The combat load of the era was 60 Grains, pure lead 500 grain mini balls lubed with Tallow and Beeswax.
Good luck!
11/7/2010 2:39:25 PM
Originally Posted By Lee308:
If you put a a.58 cal hole through the heart of anything walking on earth,,, it will go down.
If you put a a.58 cal hole through the heart of anything walking on earth,,, it will go down.
Brown Bess, .75 cal smoothbore flintlock, 100 yards.
Missed the heart I guess, but probably wouldn't have mattered.
11/10/2010 5:09:22 PM
Originally Posted By dmjung:
Brown Bess, .75 cal smoothbore flintlock, 100 yards.
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/dmjung/BrownBessTargets007.jpg
Missed the heart I guess, but probably wouldn't have mattered.
Originally Posted By Lee308:
If you put a a.58 cal hole through the heart of anything walking on earth,,, it will go down.
If you put a a.58 cal hole through the heart of anything walking on earth,,, it will go down.
Brown Bess, .75 cal smoothbore flintlock, 100 yards.
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/dmjung/BrownBessTargets007.jpg
Missed the heart I guess, but probably wouldn't have mattered.
Yeah, that's a DRT shot for sure.
Outstanding for a smoothbore at 100 yards.
11/10/2010 5:11:02 PM
Originally Posted By RileyS:
DR,
Stay away from non-traditional black powders. Triple 7 and Pyrodex are big no-no's. I have used Pyrodex in my Armi Sport 1861 and often times you will get a fail to fire. The cap will fail to ignite the main charge. You will fire, the cap will go off and then you'll have to put on a fresh cap. Meanwhile your deer has ran off from the noise of the cap. Not that big of a deal on the range, but out hunting, if you get a fail to fire you just ruined your whole day. I now only use Goex FFG. The bullet I use is a Lee 500 grain Mini cast from lead I buy off of MidWay USA that is rated at 99.97% pure. This year I will be transitioning to a 460 grain Lyman mould. I have not used this mould yet.
My load is as follows:
In my Armi Sport 1861 this is a very accurate load, I can hit a 8.5inchx11 metal plate at 100yards off the bench all day. 500 grains of lead smacking the hanging plate makes for a pretty loud THANG noise. Recoil is mild, it's more of a push, rather than the sharp kick of a 300 Win Mag.
When hunting I keep the musket pointed in a safe direction, half-cocked, with a cap on the nipple. I do not have a sling and the musket can get heavy if you do alot of walking. It is long and cumbersome, especially for dense brush.
If you really get into this hobby, you'll want to have your barrel sized. I size my bullets 0.002 under bore, this combined with the Crisco makes them super easy to load even after a day of heavy shooting. You'll also want to play around with the amount of gun powder you use to see what your musket likes best with the bullet type you are using. Most of the NSSA guys I have spoken too say that 60 is an awful lot for target shooting. I know many of them have perfected loads and the ones I spoke to were using charges in the 40 grains area. 60 Grains will be plenty to take down a deer. The combat load of the era was 60 Grains, pure lead 500 grain mini balls lubed with Tallow and Beeswax.
Good luck!
Originally Posted By _DR:
Wow, glad your Dad is ok after that. Will take that advice to heart.
Can I ask what load/powder/projectile you use for hunting in your ML?
most of the vendors say the reproductions use 60gr of 2F, but Hogdon says 80-100 for the their 2F 777 for .58 Caliber. I'd be curious to know what most people use as a hunting load for deer in their .58 springfields/zouaves/enfields.
Wow, glad your Dad is ok after that. Will take that advice to heart.
Can I ask what load/powder/projectile you use for hunting in your ML?
most of the vendors say the reproductions use 60gr of 2F, but Hogdon says 80-100 for the their 2F 777 for .58 Caliber. I'd be curious to know what most people use as a hunting load for deer in their .58 springfields/zouaves/enfields.
DR,
Stay away from non-traditional black powders. Triple 7 and Pyrodex are big no-no's. I have used Pyrodex in my Armi Sport 1861 and often times you will get a fail to fire. The cap will fail to ignite the main charge. You will fire, the cap will go off and then you'll have to put on a fresh cap. Meanwhile your deer has ran off from the noise of the cap. Not that big of a deal on the range, but out hunting, if you get a fail to fire you just ruined your whole day. I now only use Goex FFG. The bullet I use is a Lee 500 grain Mini cast from lead I buy off of MidWay USA that is rated at 99.97% pure. This year I will be transitioning to a 460 grain Lyman mould. I have not used this mould yet.
My load is as follows:
- 60 Grains of Goex FFG
- 500 Grain Bullet (Cast from Lee Mould; 99.97% Pure Lead)
- I size my cast bullets to .577, my barrel is actually .579
- Slathered in Crisco (Helps keep fouling soft even after sixty shots of no cleaning)
In my Armi Sport 1861 this is a very accurate load, I can hit a 8.5inchx11 metal plate at 100yards off the bench all day. 500 grains of lead smacking the hanging plate makes for a pretty loud THANG noise. Recoil is mild, it's more of a push, rather than the sharp kick of a 300 Win Mag.
When hunting I keep the musket pointed in a safe direction, half-cocked, with a cap on the nipple. I do not have a sling and the musket can get heavy if you do alot of walking. It is long and cumbersome, especially for dense brush.
If you really get into this hobby, you'll want to have your barrel sized. I size my bullets 0.002 under bore, this combined with the Crisco makes them super easy to load even after a day of heavy shooting. You'll also want to play around with the amount of gun powder you use to see what your musket likes best with the bullet type you are using. Most of the NSSA guys I have spoken too say that 60 is an awful lot for target shooting. I know many of them have perfected loads and the ones I spoke to were using charges in the 40 grains area. 60 Grains will be plenty to take down a deer. The combat load of the era was 60 Grains, pure lead 500 grain mini balls lubed with Tallow and Beeswax.
Good luck!
Thanks, thats the kind of information that is useful.
11/10/2010 5:26:59 PM
didja pick one yet?!
11/11/2010 1:00:18 PM
Originally Posted By JoeCoastie:
didja pick one yet?!
didja pick one yet?!
Almost got a Parker-Hale Enfield (really wanted it) but the bidding went to high for my budget,
There is an N.I.B. JP Murray .58 I have a bid on, hopefully it won't go too high, auction is up in two days, watching it like a hawk.
I am about $100 short of full retail on one, so hopefully by the end of next month at the latest.
Scouted out a few decent spots though.
