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 Nighthawk 870 vs Benelli M4
tac45  [Team Member]
9/26/2011 5:50:29 PM EST
Trying to decide what shotgun I'm going to blow $1500+ on lol. What do you all think I should get?
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Xela  [Member]
9/26/2011 5:56:40 PM EST
benelli m4 without a doubt. the 870 is still an 870 at the end of the day, no matter how much you polish it. it will not hold 9rds with an 18" barrel and flush mag tube, will not be semi auto, and will not be a benelli.
gj047  [Member]
9/26/2011 6:08:29 PM EST
870 without a doubt. The Benelli is still a Benelli at the end of the day. Just kidding with you. The 870 offers some advantages over the Benelli such as the ability to use many different types of ammunition that might not work in a semi. I do admit that shooting the Benelli is very fun with the correct ammuntion. If you do go custom 870 skip any barrel porting.

StrangerDanger  [Member]
9/26/2011 6:48:03 PM EST
Yeah, you know those finicky Benelli M4's. They only have the audacity to cycle from the hottest 3" mag loads down to the pussy handicap loads. Yes, you can interchange hot loads and light loads without any cyclic issues.

The only issue with the Benelli M4 is that it takes several hundred dollars over the initial sticker price to really make it sing. You know, 922 compliance parts. Lightened Titanium parts.
Andrewsky  [Member]
9/26/2011 8:54:33 PM EST
The boutique 870's are sort of a scam. You can get a PD surplus 870 Police for under 250 dollars in some cases. An 870 is not a $800+ shotgun.
12_gauge  [Member]
9/26/2011 9:38:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By StrangerDanger:
Yeah, you know those finicky Benelli M4's. They only have the audacity to cycle from the hottest 3" mag loads down to the pussy handicap loads. Yes, you can interchange hot loads and light loads without any cyclic issues.

The only issue with the Benelli M4 is that it takes several hundred dollars over the initial sticker price to really make it sing. You know, 922 compliance parts. Lightened Titanium parts.


Find a lightly used M4S90 with all that stuff already done by someone competent. WIN!
ch139  [Member]
9/26/2011 9:56:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By Andrewsky:
The boutique 870's are sort of a scam. You can get a PD surplus 870 Police for under 250 dollars in some cases. An 870 is not a $800+ shotgun.

DING! DING! DING!

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

Originally Posted By Xela:
benelli m4 without a doubt. the 870 is still an 870 at the end of the day, no matter how much you polish it. it will not hold 9rds with an 18" barrel and flush mag tube, will not be semi auto, and will not be a benelli.

This too.


oldguy870  [Member]
9/27/2011 3:55:10 AM EST
All you need is a $300 870 HD. It will do everything the fancy Benelli will do.
zutmeloda2003  [Team Member]
9/27/2011 5:27:53 AM EST
just got a used 870 PD from century for $225. it looked like it was pieced together in the arsonel with non matching stocks. but for 225 couldnt be happier. put on a hogue front end, gun koted it, put in some new springs, she runs like a dream. shes not as fast as a semi but not bad. went to a shoot last week top time on shotgun stag was 7.81 sec with a semi (probably siaga with long mag) i ran it in 12.something. for having to pump and reload one ( 8 shot course) id take the shur thing of the 870.
Xela  [Member]
9/27/2011 5:39:41 AM EST
I have owned an 870, as well as a 590, a 590a1, 1100, saiga and a benelli m4. My benelli is my favorite gun. It runs everything, including cheap Walmart remington 1oz game loads. I can't recommend it highly enough.
DrCyCoe  [Member]
9/27/2011 6:52:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By tac45:
Trying to decide what shotgun I'm going to blow $1500+ on lol. What do you all think I should get?

If you spend over $600 to $800 and it is not semi auto you have lost your mind and I am an 870 guy but I love my Benellis and Berettas too.

If you buy any of the Nighthawk guns without having first shot similar guns there will be up to a half dozen features you may not even like, need or want but you paid 300% just for the luxury to have someone else assemble it for you. Sadly, if you get the top rail, that may mean you will eventually add a $500 optic to it too. You are comparing guns based on price, not value so if you are going to buy just to blow money, blow it on the Benelli. You won't lose $700 when you take it out of the box.

StrangerDanger  [Member]
9/27/2011 11:05:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Originally Posted By StrangerDanger:
Yeah, you know those finicky Benelli M4's. They only have the audacity to cycle from the hottest 3" mag loads down to the pussy handicap loads. Yes, you can interchange hot loads and light loads without any cyclic issues.

The only issue with the Benelli M4 is that it takes several hundred dollars over the initial sticker price to really make it sing. You know, 922 compliance parts. Lightened Titanium parts.


Find a lightly used M4S90 with all that stuff already done by someone competent. WIN!


Yes, there are some outstanding deals in the EE right now.
ArmedPete  [Team Member]
9/27/2011 4:40:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
All you need is a $300 870 HD. It will do everything the fancy Benelli will do.


No, it won't.
I have an 870 and an M4 and they are two different animals.

OP, get the M4. Order a mag tube from carrier comp, enjoy!
cchurchi  [Team Member]
9/27/2011 4:48:06 PM EST
You only live once. The Benelli M4 is the smoothest shooting 12 guage I've ever fired. I think they are a work of art.
12_gauge  [Member]
9/27/2011 5:10:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By StrangerDanger:
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Originally Posted By StrangerDanger:
Yeah, you know those finicky Benelli M4's. They only have the audacity to cycle from the hottest 3" mag loads down to the pussy handicap loads. Yes, you can interchange hot loads and light loads without any cyclic issues.

The only issue with the Benelli M4 is that it takes several hundred dollars over the initial sticker price to really make it sing. You know, 922 compliance parts. Lightened Titanium parts.


Find a lightly used M4S90 with all that stuff already done by someone competent. WIN!


Yes, there are some outstanding deals in the EE right now.


Shameless plug, but there is one with a Ti magazine tube/USA follower, Geissele hammer, and only about 100 rounds through it for $1525.
Monkey-man  [Member]
9/28/2011 2:41:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By Andrewsky:
The boutique 870's are a scam. You can get a PD surplus 870 Police for under 250 dollars in some cases. An 870 is not a $800+ shotgun.


Gospel.

Shoguns are not aimed, they are pointed. That is what shotgun training is about, it allows you to 'point' with precision like an olympic skeet shooter. Therefore, all 'precision' sights on a shotgun are useless BUT a raised rib and red bead will help you learn to point faster and better until you no longer see either when you shoot.

The only thing an 870 needs to make it absolutely unbreakable is a chrome bore/chamber and no-one does that. Fit Hogue rubber stocks, mag extension and short ribbed barrel with truglow bead and learn to shoot it at a sporting-clays range. Pay for training, it will save you years of effort and much ammo.

Gravity3694  [Member]
9/28/2011 3:36:09 AM EST
Nighthawk 870 vs Benelli M4

Fixed it for you. Not to specifically bash Nighthawk, but boutique shotguns are not worth it.
oldguy870  [Member]
9/28/2011 6:36:51 AM EST
Yep. Waste of money. An 870HD from Big 5 will do everything a self defense shotgun needs to do. Use your extra money for ammo and practice.
gj047  [Member]
9/28/2011 7:22:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By StrangerDanger:
Yeah, you know those finicky Benelli M4's. They only have the audacity to cycle from the hottest 3" mag loads down to the pussy handicap loads. Yes, you can interchange hot loads and light loads without any cyclic issues.



Benelli's won't cycle all of the same ammunition types that a pump gun will, period. Of course if your only going to use standard ammo then above is a good argument. Find a basic 870 Police model gun, add good sights that are purposeful to the type of shooting you are going to do (the remington rifled sights wtih XS inserts are good), get a reduced length stock, weapon mounted light, and a quality two point sling. The last element is finding quality training. You will find that 870 will do everything you want done and if it doesn't you can have it modifed to accomplish your goals. Don't take my word for it, seek out training from some of the good shotgun guys out there.
Benelli's do some things very well, better than and 870 I would even say, but they aren't as versitile.
oldguy870  [Member]
9/28/2011 8:03:56 AM EST
Shotguns don't need rifle sights. If you need rifle sights, you need a rifle.

Shotguns are for self defense. Self defense is a quick up close event. A simple fast handling gun is superior. Less is more.
12_gauge  [Member]
9/28/2011 8:12:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
Shotguns don't need rifle sights. If you need rifle sights, you need a rifle.

Shotguns are for self defense. Self defense is a quick up close event. A simple fast handling gun is superior. Less is more.


Glocks have sights...

Up close a shotgun IS a rifle for all common intents and purposes and it needs to be aimed as such. Far away, slugs STILL need to be aimed.
gj047  [Member]
9/28/2011 9:34:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
Shotguns don't need rifle sights. If you need rifle sights, you need a rifle.

Shotguns are for self defense. Self defense is a quick up close event. A simple fast handling gun is superior. Less is more.


Glocks have sights...

Up close a shotgun IS a rifle for all common intents and purposes and it needs to be aimed as such. Far away, slugs STILL need to be aimed.


Correct!
Also adjustable sights allow for the POA/ POI for slugs that you decide to use. Bead sights leave something to be desired if your slug selection does not hit point of aim. If slugs are not being used then a proper bead sight is a good sighting system for a shotgun. Like I said the use of the gun needs to be decided first.
86HMMWV  [Team Member]
9/28/2011 10:20:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By Andrewsky:
An 870 is not a $800+ shotgun.

I agree, and I'd get the Benelli.
oldguy870  [Member]
9/28/2011 10:45:17 AM EST
You don't need rifle sights at 10-15 feet maximum on a self defense shotgun. The bead is fine. Slugs in a self defense gun is ridiculous. If you even THINK you need slugs, you need a rifle. Ditch the shotgun. You picked the wrong tool.

The switch to slug drills taught in most shooting schools is for people who have been artificially handicapped (police) by someone else (administrators) and forced to carry a shotgun where a rifle is better capable of doing the job they need.

I challenge anyone to show me documentation on ONE SINGLE instance a self defense shotgun has been used by a civilian where a switch to slug drill was performed on an attacker successfully. It is gun school nonsense.
12_gauge  [Member]
9/28/2011 1:21:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
You don't need rifle sights at 10-15 feet maximum on a self defense shotgun. The bead is fine. Slugs in a self defense gun is ridiculous. If you even THINK you need slugs, you need a rifle. Ditch the shotgun. You picked the wrong tool.

The switch to slug drills taught in most shooting schools is for people who have been artificially handicapped (police) by someone else (administrators) and forced to carry a shotgun where a rifle is better capable of doing the job they need.

I challenge anyone to show me documentation on ONE SINGLE instance a self defense shotgun has been used by a civilian where a switch to slug drill was performed on an attacker successfully. It is gun school nonsense.


Some people like to shoot their guns just for the fun of it. Shooting slugs at 1-200 yard gongs with your M4 is fun.

Sights do not prevent you from shooting the weapon in a point-shoot manner. I have downed birds with my M4S90 no problem at 20+ yards in flight. Reflexive point-shoot.
Not having sights WILL prevent you from accurately launching slugs. I had a bead-sight shotgun that was 2 FEET from POA at 20 yards. Need/want to dispatch something at that range with a slug? That sure sucked.

My point is, how much weight do you actually think a set of ghost rings adds? It's not worth quibbling over. The sights don't PREVENT you from doing anything. Not having them does. Pay the 2oz to have them.
oldguy870  [Member]
9/28/2011 1:48:55 PM EST
Ghost ring sights slow you down. Self defense is up close and fast.

And... slugs have no purpose in a self defense shotgun. A shotgun with slugs is dramatically inferior to a rifle. If you need a rifle, pick a rifle.
12_gauge  [Member]
9/28/2011 2:33:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
Ghost ring sights slow you down. Self defense is up close and fast.

And... slugs have no purpose in a self defense shotgun. A shotgun with slugs is dramatically inferior to a rifle. If you need a rifle, pick a rifle.


Slugs work just fine in rural areas, or against bear, etc.
Slugs are only inferior at longer range.
Sometimes you want a .73 caliber rifle.
How does a GRS slow you down in a point/shoot situation? Why does the military equip all their shotguns with them except the breechers? (590a1 and M4S90)
coldair  [Team Member]
9/28/2011 2:50:21 PM EST
I have M1, M2, and a M4 decked out and they have never failed to fire and cycle ever, no matter what I fed them or how badly I treated them.

just got back from Dove hunting in Texas and the number one shotgun of choice is the Benelli
Homeinvader  [Team Member]
9/28/2011 5:00:10 PM EST
From a value retention perspective, look how quickly Benelli M4s are bought and sold at that price point. Now compare that to a custom 870 at the same price point.

You will be able to sell a used Benelli M4 very quickly and for top dollar if ever the need arises. You will take a large loss on a Nighthawk 870 under the same circumstances.
12_gauge  [Member]
9/28/2011 6:18:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
From a value retention perspective, look how quickly Benelli M4s are bought and sold at that price point. Now compare that to a custom 870 at the same price point.

You will be able to sell a used Benelli M4 very quickly and for top dollar if ever the need arises. You will take a large loss on a Nighthawk 870 under the same circumstances.


+1, I use them like a savings fund, lol. Selling my 4th one now. But you know what? I always buy another one! Addictive!
oldguy870  [Member]
9/29/2011 3:44:22 AM EST
If you are in a rural area and expect trouble at distances where you need a slug - you need a rifle.

Bears - 0.000000001% of human beings need a shotgun for protection against bears. Even so, a bead sight is prefered because a self defense situation with a bear happens fast and up close. Most people know they are in a bear attack when the bear is on top of them. Hunting is a different situation.

If you are point shooting (which you will be against an up close self defense threat) Ghost ring sights (or any sights) are unnecessary.
DrCyCoe  [Member]
9/29/2011 5:26:29 AM EST
Not having sights WILL prevent you from accurately launching slugs. I had a bead-sight shotgun that was 2 FEET from POA at 20 yards. Need/want to dispatch something at that range with a slug? That sure sucked.

My point is, how much weight do you actually think a set of ghost rings adds? It's not worth quibbling over. The sights don't PREVENT you from doing anything. Not having them does. Pay the 2oz to have them.

Nothing personal but 2 feet from POA at 20 yards is likely on you or that gun was a POS, had issues or damage. If you can't get close to +/-4" out to 50 or 75 yards with a plain bead on a consistent basis there is usually a reason for it.

For non-LEO's Ghost Rings are more psychological insurance. The non-shotgunner is more comfortable trying to use them then a plain bead. Ghost rings can easily slow a novice shooter down on follow up shots or shots on multiple targets. If that were not true, then why do red dots exist? They make rifles aim like shotguns, only one sight plane to focus on instead of two focal points to line up, but you still get the precision of a rifle, especially with smaller MOA dots. I think it is better to learn without ghost rings and why I prefer guns with no rear sight on the receiver. It gives you more options and does not lock you into having that rear sight on with any barrel you may want to use.

If I am a hostage and my "savior" is using a shotgun with ghost rings and he wants to make a precision head shot on the bad guy with a slug, unless I know the shooter, I want to call time out. Perhaps shoot me first in the calf with birdshot so I drop, then blast the BG with buckshot. I am good with that.

In the end the gun a shooter likes the most will be the most fun to practice with, but we never start out with ghost rings in our family. That is a personal choice later. Hits with slugs and just a bead are easy enough and we are not talking about ethical one shot kills on deer. You better have a good legal reason for taking any defensive shot beyond normal HD ranges with any gun.
cms81586  [Team Member]
9/29/2011 8:38:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By Monkey-man:
Originally Posted By Andrewsky:
The boutique 870's are a scam. You can get a PD surplus 870 Police for under 250 dollars in some cases. An 870 is not a $800+ shotgun.


Gospel.

Shoguns are not aimed, they are pointed. That is what shotgun training is about, it allows you to 'point' with precision like an olympic skeet shooter. Therefore, all 'precision' sights on a shotgun are useless BUT a raised rib and red bead will help you learn to point faster and better until you no longer see either when you shoot.

The only thing an 870 needs to make it absolutely unbreakable is a chrome bore/chamber and no-one does that. Fit Hogue rubber stocks, mag extension and short ribbed barrel with truglow bead and learn to shoot it at a sporting-clays range. Pay for training, it will save you years of effort and much ammo.



????? Huh? That's about as classic as "You don' thave to aim a shotgun...period". Have you ever shot in any 3-Gun comps? They give you a good idea what your equipment is capable of. Guys shooting shotguns with bead sights have a lot of difficulty hitting the slug targets, especially at distance or when the target is small. You can shoot quickly and well with GR and rifle sights on a shotgun. The only situation where it wouldn't be ideal would be for trap/skeet/sporting clays...but there's other shotguns for that. Not saying bead sights aren't adequate, but there's better out there for fighting shotguns.
cms81586  [Team Member]
9/29/2011 8:41:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
You don't need rifle sights at 10-15 feet maximum on a self defense shotgun. The bead is fine. Slugs in a self defense gun is ridiculous. If you even THINK you need slugs, you need a rifle. Ditch the shotgun. You picked the wrong tool.

The switch to slug drills taught in most shooting schools is for people who have been artificially handicapped (police) by someone else (administrators) and forced to carry a shotgun where a rifle is better capable of doing the job they need.

I challenge anyone to show me documentation on ONE SINGLE instance a self defense shotgun has been used by a civilian where a switch to slug drill was performed on an attacker successfully. It is gun school nonsense.


Also...who ever said anything about self defense. Some people actually use their shotguns at work (IE: Police) where they're not always in a self defense situation. A fighting shotgun is not just a self defense shotgun.
oldguy870  [Member]
9/29/2011 8:43:43 AM EST
3 gun is not self defense. I have never been attacked by a bowling pin at 15 yards. Geesh. Come on guys. Games aren't real life.

Self defense = bad guy most likely on the move at distances of much less than 10-15 feet. You need the simplest, fastest handling gun you can find that packs the biggest punch per round delivered. Oh, and you don't need 17 rounds. If there are multiple people actively trying to kill you, you are probably going to die.

P.S. Police are usually restricted to a shotgun because of retarded policy makers behind desks. A rifle is better suited to the task they need a long gun to fill. This has nothing to do with civilian self defense under non-SHTF scenarios.
cms81586  [Team Member]
9/29/2011 8:46:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
3 gun is not self defense. I have never been attacked by a bowling pin at 15 yards. Geesh. Come on guys. Games aren't real life.

Self defense = bad guy most likely on the move at distances of much less than 10-15 feet. You need the simplest, fastest handling gun you can find. Oh, and you don't need 17 rounds. If there are multiple people actively trying to kill you, you are probably going to die.

P.S. Police are usually restricted to a shotgun because of retarded policy makers behind desks. A rifle is better suited to the task they need a long gun to fill. This has nothing to do with civilian self defense under non-SHTF scenarios.


You're correct. We'll bow to your vast gunfighting experience.

ETA: If you've got a perp within 10-15 feet you're at a severe disadvantage with a long gun, are better served with a handgun, and you ignored the 21' / 7 yard rule.
12_gauge  [Member]
9/29/2011 10:15:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
3 gun is not self defense. I have never been attacked by a bowling pin at 15 yards. Geesh. Come on guys. Games aren't real life.

Self defense = bad guy most likely on the move at distances of much less than 10-15 feet. You need the simplest, fastest handling gun you can find that packs the biggest punch per round delivered. Oh, and you don't need 17 rounds. If there are multiple people actively trying to kill you, you are probably going to die.

P.S. Police are usually restricted to a shotgun because of retarded policy makers behind desks. A rifle is better suited to the task they need a long gun to fill. This has nothing to do with civilian self defense under non-SHTF scenarios.


So, extending your thoughts a bit further...

I have never been attacked by a paper target, either. That's why I never go to the range or practice with my firearms. What good is being able to place a shot on a piece of paper? I don't need that skill-set for self-defense. Practice and games are worthless.

oldguy870  [Member]
9/29/2011 10:27:42 AM EST
Nice try on the straw man argument.

If you think the sights necessary to knock a bowling pin down at 25 yards are the same sights you need to defend yourself from a full size man actively trying to kill you at 10 feet, I don't know how to help you. Please, by all means, waste your money on all the gimmicks you can possibly find for your shotgun. Go all out. Buy a 3 point sling, rail, Eotech sight, jumbo safety, special finish, laser, vertical grip, and dual sidesaddle.

Then, please post pictures. I love a good laugh.


cms81586  [Team Member]
9/29/2011 11:03:30 AM EST
Bead sights are the bare minimum, being adequate for most things but not great at much. Rifle/GR sights are the same, although what they're great at is much more applicable to fighting and self defense. By using bead sights you're limiting the range of a shotgun. I can place slugs on a 10" steel plate at 100+ yds with GR sights. Good luck doing that at anything greater and 30-40 yds with a bead sight. The rifle argument is a moot point...the best gun to have in a gunfight is the one in hour hands. Might as well make it as capable as possible.

Back on track... The Benelli will do all you can ask from a shotgun very well. If you can get over the price they're a joy to own.
oldguy870  [Member]
9/29/2011 1:03:59 PM EST
I can place slugs on a 10" steel plate at 100+ yds with GR sights.

And .... this has nothing to do with self defense. Nothing.
jmkrick  [Team Member]
9/29/2011 1:39:20 PM EST
WOW! Never mind....... No comment.
cms81586  [Team Member]
9/29/2011 1:46:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
I can place slugs on a 10" steel plate at 100+ yds with GR sights.

And .... this has nothing to do with self defense. Nothing.


How about the fact that you can place a round on a target out to 100+ yds??? It doesn't matter if it's steel or human...being able to hit where you aim at is essential. You're taking the OP's original discussion off track.

OP...let us know what you decide on. Pictures are mandatory!
oldguy870  [Member]
9/29/2011 1:57:49 PM EST
Let me type real slow for you ... hitting a target at 100 yards with slugs means NOTHING in terms of self defense. Repeat this over and over until you understand. Report back.
Master_Blaster  [Member]
9/29/2011 2:03:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By gj047:
Originally Posted By StrangerDanger:
Yeah, you know those finicky Benelli M4's. They only have the audacity to cycle from the hottest 3" mag loads down to the pussy handicap loads. Yes, you can interchange hot loads and light loads without any cyclic issues.



Benelli's won't cycle all of the same ammunition types that a pump gun will, period. Of course if your only going to use standard ammo then above is a good argument. Find a basic 870 Police model gun, add good sights that are purposeful to the type of shooting you are going to do (the remington rifled sights wtih XS inserts are good), get a reduced length stock, weapon mounted light, and a quality two point sling. The last element is finding quality training. You will find that 870 will do everything you want done and if it doesn't you can have it modifed to accomplish your goals. Don't take my word for it, seek out training from some of the good shotgun guys out there.
Benelli's do some things very well, better than and 870 I would even say, but they aren't as versitile.


The M4S90 specifically integrates recoil op with gas (piston driven) assist, & will cycle everything from light trap/skeet loads to slugs. Period.

Some companies like to engineer their products & evolve/improve them. Others just put out a fancy new shell with the same old, re-cycled tech inside.
cms81586  [Team Member]
9/29/2011 2:19:16 PM EST
Let.......me.......type.......even.......slower.......for.........you............................
....a........fighting.........shotgun........is...........not.........just..........for............self........defense. It's not about just being able to hit something with slugs at x yards away. It's about having a shotgun that's capable of doing the widest range of tasks with good performance across the board. A Benelli M4 of FN SLP will do everything as good as or better than a baseline model Remington 870 with a few exceptions. The only ones I can think of are cycle less than lethal/ non-lethal ammo, shoot small flying objects (clays), and keep cash in your pocket (they're not cheap).

My guess is you've never fired a shotgun with either rifle sights or GR's. Take a class with either and then you report back. If you're opinion doesn't change than at least you can speak from experience. Yes a cheap ass 870 express will work for self defense. Is it the best option.....no. If the OP is willing to spend $1000+ on a shotgun then there's better out there. Since you sound like you've never been to a 3-Gun match, don't just assume it's a bunch of race guns set up for competition only. Many people shoot their tactical setups (SWAT team members, Sheriffs dept's, and Police Dept's, etc.) and there's a reason pump guns still typically finish with longer times than semi's. On top of that it's typical that the miss ratio with a bead sight is much higher on some stages. Support your argument with some fact or experience rather than just trying to divert the topic.


Master_Blaster...The only ammo I've found that the M4 won't cycle are less than lethal rounds. I doubt there's a semi out there that will (maybe the Striker-12 ). Not really an issue when most civies don't use non-lethal rounds.

CMS

12_gauge  [Member]
9/29/2011 2:45:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
Nice try on the straw man argument.

If you think the sights necessary to knock a bowling pin down at 25 yards are the same sights you need to defend yourself from a full size man actively trying to kill you at 10 feet, I don't know how to help you. Please, by all means, waste your money on all the gimmicks you can possibly find for your shotgun. Go all out. Buy a 3 point sling, rail, Eotech sight, jumbo safety, special finish, laser, vertical grip, and dual sidesaddle.

Then, please post pictures. I love a good laugh.




If you have the experience to put all of those items to use, then they are of benefit. If you cannot get the most out of them, stick with a bead sight. I can do anything with a GRS shotgun that you can do with a bead-sight shotgun, but you can't adjust for POI at 100 yards with your bead.
12_gauge  [Member]
9/29/2011 2:46:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By oldguy870:
Let me type real slow for you ... hitting a target at 100 yards with slugs means NOTHING in terms of self defense. Repeat this over and over until you understand. Report back.


How many times have you shot someone in self-defense, and while I'm being personal, list 3 firearms that you own, if you have 3 or more and don't mind.
12_gauge  [Member]
9/29/2011 2:48:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:
Originally Posted By gj047:
Originally Posted By StrangerDanger:
Yeah, you know those finicky Benelli M4's. They only have the audacity to cycle from the hottest 3" mag loads down to the pussy handicap loads. Yes, you can interchange hot loads and light loads without any cyclic issues.



Benelli's won't cycle all of the same ammunition types that a pump gun will, period. Of course if your only going to use standard ammo then above is a good argument. Find a basic 870 Police model gun, add good sights that are purposeful to the type of shooting you are going to do (the remington rifled sights wtih XS inserts are good), get a reduced length stock, weapon mounted light, and a quality two point sling. The last element is finding quality training. You will find that 870 will do everything you want done and if it doesn't you can have it modifed to accomplish your goals. Don't take my word for it, seek out training from some of the good shotgun guys out there.
Benelli's do some things very well, better than and 870 I would even say, but they aren't as versitile.


The M4S90 specifically integrates recoil op with gas (piston driven) assist, & will cycle everything from light trap/skeet loads to slugs. Period.

Some companies like to engineer their products & evolve/improve them. Others just put out a fancy new shell with the same old, re-cycled tech inside.

Early press release seemed to indicate that, but lacking any spring in the bolt/carrier group except for the very small firing-pin spring, it does not utilize recoil operation like the other Benelli shotguns. Current literature refers to it as the ARGO gas system, not an "assist". I do remember what you are claiming was EXACTLY what the system was originally described as, though.
Andrewsky  [Member]
9/29/2011 8:40:40 PM EST
A Benelli is better than an 870. On the other hand, it's 5 times as expensive, and I'm not sure you need to triple tap a home invader with 00 buck to stop him.
tallhorse89  [Team Member]
9/30/2011 2:30:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By Andrewsky:
A Benelli is better than an 870. On the other hand, it's 5 times as expensive, and I'm not sure you need to triple tap a home invader with 00 buck to stop him.


true but why take the chance?
oldguy870  [Member]
9/30/2011 4:09:30 AM EST
"It's about having a shotgun that's capable of doing the widest range of tasks with good performance across the board."

Uummm. Let me see... No. As a matter of fact, H*LL NO.

A self defense shotgun is not a duck gun. It is not a skeet gun. It is not a gaming gun. They are all different tasks that require different specific features in a shotgun if optimal performance is required. Just because you can hunt ducks with your 3gun Benelli, does not mean it is the best tool for the job.
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