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 12 gauge Slugs, the best choice for bear defense?
DemolitionDamon  [Member]
10/24/2007 11:42:59 PM
In your opinion, is a 12 gauge with 2 3/4" or 3" slugs the best choice for bear defense? Is .308 comparable?
mike3117  [Member]
10/25/2007 1:28:42 AM
I dont think you can go wrong with a 3" slug round for a bear. I would prefer that over a .308 any day against a bear (I have both). Besides you wont be shooting at a bear in defense at long distances, that would be the only advantage I see with the .308.
JaxxKat  [Team Member]
10/25/2007 2:26:50 AM
Bear hunter i talked to said he only uses 12 slug. He had a nice size black bear on the pickup at the time ...
BPR  [Member]
10/25/2007 9:43:18 AM
For me, I would rather have 2 3/4 slugs than 3". I expect a bear would take more than one round to put down, I'd rather have a little faster follow-up. At 1600 fps, a 2 3/4" would still have plenty of penetration.
danasaki  [Member]
10/25/2007 9:46:17 PM
Either 12 gauge in 2 3/4" or 3" should be enough for black bears. As always, shot placement is key to stopping an aggressive attack, but with bears (and I have seen them far too close a couple times camping in the Rockies) you will probably shooting in self defense after dark and believe me, black bears are damn hard to see at night, so shot placement becomes difficult at best. Keep a BRIGHT light of some kind handy.

I used to carry a Glock 17 for defense while camping in bear country. I never really expected to need it for bears though, more likely a two legged threat. But after seeing blacks in camp one night I changes my tune drastically. I carried a .45 LC +P for a couple years as a bear/man defense weapon. Nice gun my S&W mountain gun, but after more study of bears, both in person and in reference, I chose to keep a 12 gauge as a camp gun. I still carry the G17, but if needed, I grab the Rem 870 when in camp (no bears yet, but the shotgun makes me feel a lot better than the 9mm or 45 LC did). Blacks are a very strong, agile and curious creature with one thought on their mind (mostly) and that is eating all your provisions at their leisure. Best to just let them eat and go on their merry way too. However, if attacked (and I do not mean a bluff charge but a real one on one attack) a gun is going to be your best chance to escape with less injury to your person than not using a gun.

Best of all, learn how to avoid close enounters with bears. Education and smart behavior in nature is key to not putting yourself in a position where you have to use deadly force to stop a bear attack.

Browns and Grizzlies... You are probably only going to see them while in Canada or Alaska. You're pretty much screwed if attacked by one of them, especially after they make contact with you. Big, mean, nasty super-powerful, and always hungry beautiful creatures they are. If I was around or in their country I would probably carry a Marlin Guide Gun in at least .45-70. But I would try to keep a safe distance between me and them and not provoke them at all. Use every caution and diligence when in Brown's back yard. They are big and fast and capable enough to really do something about things they don't much like, including people.

My 2 cents.

Dan
DemolitionDamon  [Member]
10/26/2007 3:40:31 PM
Great post Danasaki.

I wonder if .50 Beowulf would be powerful enough for Alaska/Canada?
45/70 is more powerful than slugs? I'm very new to the big bore game.
danasaki  [Member]
10/26/2007 11:18:45 PM
The 45-70 more powerful than slugs? Depends on how you look at the ammo. Most slugs are going to expand on impact and deliver a tremendous amount of energy but perhaps not a great amount of penetration. That is to say penetration on a large bear that is made of thick muscle, tough hide, and a layer of fat. (Much differeent than penetration on say, a human being). The larger the bear then, the less the penetration. And do not forget bears have big, heavy bones that will slow or halt deep penetration of a soft lead slug. And bears have a terribly good sense of survival and fight instinct plus can be very aggressive when pushed. All this means there is a possibility that the slug will not perform as you hope, when you hope.

The 45-70 slug can be more of a "solid" bullet with a tremendous energy delivery as well, but as a much less deforming projectile (as it is built as a non deforming bullet compared to a hollow point or softer lead slug prone to expansion). This will allow the 45-70 bullet to penetrate deeper than the 12 gauge slug, but not deliver the same size wound channel as the shotgun slug. All this means there is a possibility that the solid bullet will not perform as you hope, when you hope.


So, which is "better?"

What ever you made better shot placement with.

Both can do the job well. Both can do the job less than favorably.

Just try to not get yourself into a self defense position with a bear.

Dan

I know nothing about the .50 Beowolf by the way.

bobbyjack  [Team Member]
11/3/2007 9:47:58 PM
If you decide to use a 45/70 it had better have hard cast bullets,If you use a 12 guage it had better have hard cast slugs! end of class.

bob
FrankSymptoms  [Team Member]
11/3/2007 10:07:10 PM
In reference to Danasaki's thread, does anyone make an anti-bear slug? Say, a hardcast, pointed 12-gauge slug.
bobbyjack  [Team Member]
11/3/2007 10:19:34 PM
You don't want a pointed hard cast slug,when one shoots pointed bullet it is for distance. And one wants it to become flat upon entry.
You want a hard cast flat-point with much weight,and energy that will punch right on through your target.

Big and flat to start with,sometimes the recovered round after penetrating nine feet of big game will not lose any weight and looks like it could be reloaded again!

Big game need big medicine!

Bob
survivorman  [Member]
11/3/2007 10:41:01 PM
www.brennekeusa.com/start.html


check out their products page.....can be used in smooth and rifled barrels....all except 2 rounds that are specifically made for rifled barrels


look at the black magic magnum 2 3/4 and 3 in slugs.....nasty stuff
mtk  [Member]
11/5/2007 10:56:44 AM
A friend of mine lived in Alaska for a few years.

He, and quite a few other "locals" he knew, always kept a 12 gauge, loaded with slugs, handy in case of bears.
Beers78n9  [Member]
11/6/2007 2:51:20 AM
Looking for a serious knockdown 12 round? Look no further than Winchester XP3

Rampant_Colt  [Team Member]
11/6/2007 1:14:57 PM

Originally Posted By survivorman:
www.brennekeusa.com/start.html


check out their products page.....can be used in smooth and rifled barrels....all except 2 rounds that are specifically made for rifled barrels


look at the black magic magnum 2 3/4 and 3 in slugs.....nasty stuff

+1
Brennke slugs are best for big game
MontuckyMan  [Team Member]
11/6/2007 1:18:02 PM
I live and play in serious bear country. I ALWAYS have a shotgun loaded with slugs handy. Most folks I know rely on the same.

DemolitionDamon  [Member]
11/6/2007 2:32:05 PM
Is there really much difference between name-brand slugs? I already have a bunch of Federal Tactical slugs, should I just keep them or should I get something like Brenneke?
Quarterbore  [Life Member]
11/6/2007 2:43:13 PM
I have used the Brenneke slugs for deer for many years... they shoot better then most and lots of energy. I also carry my Rem 870 with 12-gauge slugs when I go bear hunting here in PA as we have a few black bears in this state that top the scale at up over 800-pounds.

A 12-gauge 3-inch slug is a lot of power but the whimps had best be advised the recoil might knock your teeth loose!
Rampant_Colt  [Team Member]
11/6/2007 4:30:44 PM

Originally Posted By DemolitionDamon:
Is there really much difference between name-brand slugs? I already have a bunch of Federal Tactical slugs, should I just keep them or should I get something like Brenneke?

Yes - Brenneke slugs have more sectional density compared with Foster-style slugs like your Federal Tac loads.

here's proof:



Note the Foster slugs deep hollow base similar to a badminton birdie; not conducive to deep penetration.
The Brenneke hollow base is very shallow - the Foster slug hollow base is very deep

The Remington Copper Solid in the photos is the original design

ETA - here's backing proof of what i'm referring to:
www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/rem_rr_slug/gelatin_slug_rem_rr.html

Their conclusion?

****NOTE**** Based on experience with a yearling cow we were requested by it's owner to shoot, we DO NOT RECOMMEND REDUCED RECOIL SLUGS FOR DANGEROUS GAME OR ANIMALS THAT WEIGH MORE THAN 500lbs.
The_Reaper  [Team Member]
11/7/2007 9:43:03 AM
A small company called "Dixie Slugs" designed a round from the ground up
specifically for Alaskan wildlife officials for self defense against large animals.
ie, bear.

Their thoughts was that typical hollowpoint slugs were too soft.
While the standard Foster slug design with a soft lead and hollow base
is plenty good enough for whitetail, they might not be ideal against bear.

What they ultimately developed was the "Xterminator" round.
A 730 grain, 0.730" diameter hard cast solid lead slug that leaves
the barrel at 1400fps. 3176 ft.lbs energy.

A lot of time and care was taken to select the best components,
from the alloy of the slug to the type of felt and cork and plastic cup
because the intended use was personal protection. Not hunting.



By comparison, the Brenneke Black Magic Magnum is 600 grains
of soft lead with a hollow base, 1502fps, 3014 ft.lbs.

Quarterbore  [Life Member]
11/7/2007 10:10:57 AM
Funny, I cut open on of my Brenneke Black magic slugs and it does not look like what is shown above... I did a google search and it looks more like this:





Black Magic Magnum 12 / 3"
Weight: 1 3/8 oz.
Product code: 120 27 26
Symbol: SL-123BMM
Barrel: all types
Range: up to 100 yards
Game: large / dangerous


  • Original BRENNEKE “Black Magic” Slug with newly developed unique, patented B.E.T.® wad

  • PowerWad results in greater accuracy

  • tremendous knockdown power up to 100 yards

  • life insurance against dangerous big game and predators at close range

  • new, specially developed CleanSpeed™ Coating reduces lead fouling inside the barrel, and to zero at the muzzle

  • one of the heaviest slugs on the market (600 grains / 1 3/8 oz)

  • very accurate: 2” groups at 50 yards and 3” groups at 100 yards with smoothbore barrels


Distance
(yards) Velocity
(feet/sec.) Energy
(ft. lbs.) Bullet path
(inch)
Muzzle 1502 3014 - 2.0
25 1295 2241 + 0.4
50 1136 1724 + 1.6
75 1030 1418 + 1.0
100 955 1219 - 1.5

Optimum Distance for Sighting in: 88 yards



An article about these is here:
www.nrapublications.org/tah/Slugs.asp

Regardless, I can tell you that one of these 3-inch babies out of a 20-inch smooth bore Remington 870 at 1502 FPS and a 1 3/8 ounce slug has a recoil that will assure you that you are shoving some lead out the other end.

I made a mistake of shooting one of these off with a 1-4 power scope mounted and the scope came back and cut my face open real good and I bled all over my shotgun. I have shot shotguns with slugs for many years and I have got many deer with them but these 3-inch monsters have a recoil that just has to be experienced to be understood.

I only use the 3-inch slugs when I hunt bear, for deer I use the normal 2 3/4 Brenneke KO slug www.brennekeusa.com/web/text/koslug.html or even the Remington Green Box magnum 1-oz 2 3/4 loads (my shotgun shoots both well). I am quite comfortable that I am not undergunned using these when I am out hunting a big Black bear and there are a few guys I hunt with that think I am over gunned (they are using whimpy 30/06s)

Just the same, I like to hunt bear down in a thick swampy area where a long shot at a bear would be 50-75 yards and in that kind of cover I need to have enough gun to go the job and quickly if I found myself in there with an injured bear. I am comfortable with the choice I made
Rampant_Colt  [Team Member]
11/7/2007 2:29:38 PM

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
....
A small company called "Dixie Slugs" designed a round from the ground up
specifically for Alaskan wildlife officials for self defense against large animals.
ie, bear.
....

WoW! Those look like some serious slugs.

I read about these French slugs known as Sauvestre` ten or so years ago but never really heard much about their use over here.
translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=www.sauvestre.com/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsauvestre%2Bshotgun%2Bslugs%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGLG,GGLG:2005-52,GGLG:en

here is a cut-away

boar

deer


They should work well for black bear


I would vote for the Remington Copper Solid then Brenneke
The_Reaper  [Team Member]
11/7/2007 10:48:40 PM

Originally Posted By Rampant_Colt:

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
....
A small company called "Dixie Slugs" designed a round from the ground up
specifically for Alaskan wildlife officials for self defense against large animals.
ie, bear.
....

WoW! Those look like some serious slugs.

I read about these French slugs known as Sauvestre` ten or so years ago but never really heard much about their use over here.
translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=www.sauvestre.com/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsauvestre%2Bshotgun%2Bslugs%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGLG,GGLG:2005-52,GGLG:en

here is a cut-away
img114.imageshack.us/img114/7471/sauvestrext6.jpg
boar
img105.imageshack.us/img105/136/sauvestre1uo9.jpg
deer
img105.imageshack.us/img105/8384/sauvestre2yw6.jpg

They should work well for black bear


I would vote for the Remington Copper Solid then Brenneke


Never seen that kind of shell before.

Looks like it might come apart shortly after impact, which is what the
Xterminator was designed not to do.

I'm not the expert on defensive loads against bear,
but the guys who are seem to think a solid projectile that stays solid
is needed.

Robertesq1  [Team Member]
11/7/2007 11:05:15 PM

Centerfire = Hydrostatic Shock/Penetration... 308 over 12 Ga anyday for me......

Quarterbore  [Life Member]
11/7/2007 11:47:27 PM

Originally Posted By Robertesq1:
Centerfire = Hydrostatic Shock/Penetration... 308 over 12 Ga anyday for me......

i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/Robertesq1/CopyofIMG_2083b-1.jpg


Well, we will agree to disagree as there is no way in hell anyone will ever convince me ANY 308 load can stop big and dangerous game as well as a 12-gauge slug. Make this a 3-inch magnum 12-gauge slug and I dare say that anythings smaller then a 375H&H will not perform any better.

Now, this is in relation to tough thin skinned animals like bear as opposed to Elephant or Cape Buffalo. For Elephant or Buff, well even a 3-inch magnum slug is way less then I would want

That is a baby bear in that photo... when you stand next to a 600 to 800 pound bear and see just how big they are I think you might just relize you are undergunned with a 7.62
dajini  [Member]
11/8/2007 1:04:54 AM

Originally Posted By Robertesq1:
Centerfire = Hydrostatic Shock/Penetration... 308 over 12 Ga anyday for me......

i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/Robertesq1/CopyofIMG_2083b-1.jpg


Maybe for a bear that size... but when you start getting up into big browns and grizzlies, 308 in its best load will just piss them off.
Rampant_Colt  [Team Member]
11/8/2007 1:07:35 AM
here's a 150gr FMJ .308/7.62 flanked by slugs:





IMO a solid copper sabot slug has almost no chance of breaking up on heavy bones like a conventional SP rifle bullet, stands a better chance getting into the boiler room, and less chance of deflection on a frontal head-shot - the same could be said of Barnes X bullets in rifle calibers


I'll take a pump shotgun with Remington Copper Solids for rifled barrels and Brenneke's for smooth-bore shotguns

Mid-sentence as i was typing it occurred to me that you could use a Remington 7400 [or is it a 7600?] pump-action rifle up to and including .35 Whelen caliber which would make a fine stopping rifle with quick follow up shots [loaded with Barnes X and you're good to go]
Gamma762  [Team Member]
11/8/2007 1:13:22 AM
Sabot slugs would be preferred over any of the full diameter hollow base slugs.
Robertesq1  [Team Member]
11/8/2007 7:14:34 PM
[url=i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/Robertesq1/CopyofIMG_2083b-1.jpg]i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/Robertesq1/CopyofIMG_2083b-1.jpg

Well, we will agree to disagree as there is no way in hell anyone will ever convince me ANY 308 load can stop big and dangerous game as well as a 12-gauge slug. Make this a 3-inch magnum 12-gauge slug and I dare say that anythings smaller then a 375H&H will not perform any better.

Now, this is in relation to tough thin skinned animals like bear as opposed to Elephant or Cape Buffalo. For Elephant or Buff, well even a 3-inch magnum slug is way less then I would want

That is a baby bear in that photo... when you stand next to a 600 to 800 pound bear and see just how big they are I think you might just relize you are undergunned with a 7.62



Originally Posted By dajini:
Originally Posted By Robertesq1:
Centerfire = Hydrostatic Shock/Penetration... 308 over 12 Ga anyday for me......

i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/Robertesq1/CopyofIMG_2083b-1.jpg]i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/Robertesq1/CopyofIMG_2083b-1.jpg

Maybe for a bear that size... but when you start getting up into big browns and grizzlies, 308 in its best load will just piss them off.

Not saying the 308 is my round of choice for a brown bear. It was not clear which species was being discussed. The foregoing notwithstanding I think I would choose my browning BAR in 308 b/f my Benelli. But hey... I can't say I have ever had to stop a charging bear. Most guides I have seen use a centerfire.
jpmuscle  [Member]
11/9/2007 1:56:04 AM
What about 3 1/2 sabots?? Thier what I use for deer hunting and they do a pretty good job at dessimating bambi every year. And I think their close to 4,000 Ft Lbs.
The_Reaper  [Team Member]
11/9/2007 8:14:44 AM

Originally Posted By jpmuscle:
What about 3 1/2 sabots?? Thier what I use for deer hunting and they do a pretty good job at dessimating bambi every year. And I think their close to 4,000 Ft Lbs.


Didn't know there was such a beast.
What are they? Where did you get them?
easy610  [Team Member]
11/9/2007 8:55:38 AM
So I'm not safe with my KelTec P3AT?
Quarterbore  [Life Member]
11/9/2007 9:17:11 AM

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:

Originally Posted By jpmuscle:
What about 3 1/2 sabots?? Thier what I use for deer hunting and they do a pretty good job at dessimating bambi every year. And I think their close to 4,000 Ft Lbs.


Didn't know there was such a beast.
What are they? Where did you get them?


Remington used to sell them, or I am pretty sure they did, but I don't see them listed anymore. I always wanted to shoot a couple to see what it was like but I was not willing to buy a 3.5-inch shotgun to make it possible.

I can not imagine what the recoil of a 3.5-inch magnum slug load must be like... As I have implied a couple times, I find a 3-inch slug out of my short barreled Rem 700 to be pretty darned uncomfortable if I have to shoot more then say 5-10 rounds practicing or checking sights at the range.
EKLYPSE  [Member]
11/9/2007 2:05:28 PM

Originally Posted By FrankSymptoms:
In reference to Danasaki's thread, does anyone make an anti-bear slug? Say, a hardcast, pointed 12-gauge slug.



What about bonded sabot slugs or the Winchester platinum tip sabot slugs out of a 12 ga. ?
EKLYPSE  [Member]
11/9/2007 2:20:58 PM

Originally Posted By DemolitionDamon:
Is there really much difference between name-brand slugs? I already have a bunch of Federal Tactical slugs, should I just keep them or should I get something like Brenneke?



Brenneke slugs are in a class all by them selves. keep the federals But pick up some Brenneke slugs and see which ones you like best.

the Brenneke KO2 3/4 slugs tend to be a harder slug than the remington sluggers or winchester slugs and also tend to group tighter for me. And they cost around $3 a box
jpmuscle  [Member]
11/9/2007 4:25:08 PM
Here,


3 1/2 inch slugs

They work real nice in my Mossberg 835 Ultimag. Now they do kick like a bitch and you can kill deer with much less of a round but I justify using them simply because i can lol





Originally Posted By The_Reaper:

Originally Posted By jpmuscle:
What about 3 1/2 sabots?? Thier what I use for deer hunting and they do a pretty good job at dessimating bambi every year. And I think their close to 4,000 Ft Lbs.


Didn't know there was such a beast.
What are they? Where did you get them?
AROptics  [Team Member]
11/9/2007 5:46:52 PM
Remington copper solids have gone through a dramatic design change since the ones pictured in previous posts. The redesign was meant to enhance performance on deer. Not necessarily the redesign you'd want for use on bear.

New Remington Copper Solid
Rampant_Colt  [Team Member]
11/9/2007 7:39:11 PM

Originally Posted By AROptics:
Remington copper solids have gone through a dramatic design change since the ones pictured in previous posts. The redesign was meant to enhance performance on deer. Not necessarily the redesign you'd want for use on bear.

New Remington Copper Solid



WoW, no kidding!
IIRC the original Copper Solid petals were designed to break off and were deeper penetrating. That's open for argument.

I don't know if anybody has mentioned Lightfield sabot slugs
www.lightfieldslugs.com/lightfield/
These look promising
AR15fan  [Team Member]
11/11/2007 12:10:35 AM

Originally Posted By DemolitionDamon:
Is there really much difference between name-brand slugs? I already have a bunch of Federal Tactical slugs, should I just keep them or should I get something like Brenneke?


Yes. Foster style slugs with their hollow base do not penetrate as deep as the solid lead brenekkee slugs. Unfortunately you can buy foster style brennekkee brand slugs now.
bobbyjack  [Team Member]
11/24/2007 1:47:31 AM

Originally Posted By easy610:
So I'm not safe with my KelTec P3AT?


Sure you are ,just make sure you hold it right next to your temple!

Bob