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 Why is Federal HST 147gr the new hot 9mm bullet?
WRXGuyUSA  [Member]
2/12/2009 6:50:56 PM EST
I carry 124gr +P but I keep hearing about how great this new 147gr HST is because of how large a consistant the bullets expand. I have heard nothing but bad experiences with 147gr, but yet people claim this new one will work because of gel and water tests? I don't buy it, is there something I'm missing?

I also hear a lot about Corbon 115gr +P DPX but I don't think it's worth over $1 a round so I don't even consider that as an option.
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xmikex  [Team Member]
2/12/2009 7:00:55 PM EST
I'm a DPX user myself but seriously, anything on the ]"Best Choices for Self-Defense Ammunition" FAQ should be GTG


Daisycutter123  [Member]
2/12/2009 7:09:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By WRXGuyUSA:
I have heard nothing but bad experiences with 147gr, but yet people claim this new one will work because of gel and water tests? .


Years ago when the 147's came out they were designed for supressed MP5's, longer barrels, didn't perform out of pistol(barrel half the size, lost too much velocity, didn't expand) New bullets designed for 3 1/2 to 41/2" barrel. HP's designed to expand and penetrate in specific fps slot.
87GN  [Team Member]
2/12/2009 7:37:23 PM EST
A lot of the anti-147gr stuff came from people with a vested interest in seeing 147gr rounds fail.

One of the most comprehensive studies available was conducted by the late Dr. Wolberg of the San Diego PD, comparing their use of 147gr Winchester in real shootings vs ballistic gelatin tests.

He found that the gelatin tests were almost a spot-on match for the shootings in the real world.
GunDisaster  [Member]
2/12/2009 10:44:16 PM EST
Federal's new HST round is good stuff. better than the old Hydra-Shocks I'm told. As for the 9mm 147grn vs. 124grn P+ debate, kind of like the .45acp vs. 9mm debate, one is heavier and slower and the other is faster and lighter. Most people I know seem to agree the heavier the better. But I'm sure both rounds work just fine. I personally use 147grn since it is subsonic which is great for suppressors.
Boru  [Team Member]
2/13/2009 12:13:42 AM EST
HST is the latest design (that I know of) and has shown some impressive test results and jacket retention. 147gr ammo seems to be less dependent on velocity. I used to read Mr. Ayoob and some others that were down on the 147 gr ammo, but looking at the charts today shows 147gr Gold Dot, Ranger, and HST does it all well without needing a +p charge.
Hector45  [Member]
2/16/2009 6:32:30 AM EST

In my own personal tests in some home made ballistics gel, the 147gr hst 9mm expanded as much as a 185gr golden sabre .45ACP, and penetrated deeper. Ill post some pictures when i get home.

Oh and after that i switched to the 230gr hst for my .45, it expanded to the size of a quarter
J_Smith  [Member]
2/16/2009 9:56:38 AM EST
The ammo FAQ recommends Federal HST 147 grain plus insider sources say that it's what Zhukov, Chuck Norris, and Jason Bourne are currently using. I know people....
FAIL-SAFE  [Member]
2/16/2009 12:30:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By 87GN:
A lot of the anti-147gr stuff came from people with a vested interest in seeing 147gr rounds fail.


roll the credits, this thread is over.

918v  [Team Member]
2/16/2009 1:12:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
A lot of the anti-147gr stuff came from people with a vested interest in seeing 147gr rounds fail.


roll the credits, this thread is over.



Who had a vested interest in seeing the 147gr fail?
87GN  [Team Member]
2/16/2009 1:13:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By 918v:
Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
A lot of the anti-147gr stuff came from people with a vested interest in seeing 147gr rounds fail.


roll the credits, this thread is over.



Who had a vested interest in seeing the 147gr fail?


Marshall and Sanow, at least, because every account or study reflecting the success of 147gr ammo was a nail in the coffin for their "One Shot Stop" "data".
WRXGuyUSA  [Member]
2/16/2009 1:30:56 PM EST
While informative, this thread is just more of the same lab test data. All these lab tests are showing marginal increase in expansion with HST in gel/water/wet pack, but to what effect?

I have read NYPD has used 124 gr GD +P from their Glocks and seems happy with its effectiveness in real shooting events.

What LEOs are using 147 hst currently and what have the post-shooting reports said?

Just looking for more proof before I buy into the HST. I am looking for a non-+P round that will be easier to shoot for the females in my family so long as it does not sacrifice performance.
87GN  [Team Member]
2/16/2009 1:49:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By WRXGuyUSA:
While informative, this thread is just more of the same lab test data. All these lab tests are showing marginal increase in expansion with HST in gel/water/wet pack, but to what effect?

I have read NYPD has used 124 gr GD +P from their Glocks and seems happy with its effectiveness in real shooting events.

What LEOs are using 147 hst currently and what have the post-shooting reports said?

Just looking for more proof before I buy into the HST. I am looking for a non-+P round that will be easier to shoot for the females in my family so long as it does not sacrifice performance.




Originally Posted By 87GN:
One of the most comprehensive studies available was conducted by the late Dr. Wolberg of the San Diego PD, comparing their use of 147gr Winchester in real shootings vs ballistic gelatin tests.

He found that the gelatin tests were almost a spot-on match for the shootings in the real world.


Andras  [Member]
2/16/2009 2:37:51 PM EST
You can check out ballistics gel tests of the HST and other bullets Here on the Federal website The ballistics tests are hosted by local law enforcement.
HoodyHoo21  [Team Member]
2/16/2009 2:50:06 PM EST
Edit: Read your entire post.
WRXGuyUSA  [Member]
2/16/2009 2:58:34 PM EST
Nevermind, I will assume that no real-world shooting data is available.

Thanks for all the lab tests. I will read them all.

BTW, I found the Wolberg study hosted here: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf
87GN  [Team Member]
2/16/2009 3:06:20 PM EST
Daisycutter123  [Member]
2/16/2009 3:31:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By WRXGuyUSA:
While informative, this thread is just more of the same lab test data. All these lab tests are showing marginal increase in expansion with HST in gel/water/wet pack, but to what effect?

I have read NYPD has used 124 gr GD +P from their Glocks and seems happy with its effectiveness in real shooting events.

What LEOs are using 147 hst currently and what have the post-shooting reports said?

Just looking for more proof before I buy into the HST. I am looking for a non-+P round that will be easier to shoot for the females in my family so long as it does not sacrifice performance.


Your splitting hairs here. They "show marginal increase", increase being the key word. They are so close that it's really about shot placement then, right? You have the right idea about getting what is easier for the females to shoot because of shot placement, right. Buy both, load pairs into the same mag and let the women pick what they shoot best(shot placement, follow up shots,etc.). Don't tell them which are which and switch up on the order. Buy that load. I did it w/ my wife, she picked the same load everytime. And to the photo, I sure do like the look of those 40's under that nickel.
HoodyHoo21  [Team Member]
2/16/2009 3:33:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By WRXGuyUSA:
Nevermind, I will assume that no real-world shooting data is available.

Thanks for all the lab tests. I will read them all.

BTW, I found the Wolberg study hosted here: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf


The Federal HST is a pretty new bullet so I'm not surprised that there is no real world shooting info with this bullet. It seems like people like you and me will only see that kind of data after someone compiles it from police agencies and then makes it public. Otherwise I imagine this type of info stays within police/medical examiners circles.

Some people may have used these loads to kill game with so you will have to search the web to find any pics, etc.

Even though you are just stuck with lab data I wouldn't say that is entirely worthless. The 147 grain ammo is matched up against the lighter bullets under the same conditions and most of the time comes out on top. Not really much more to it.

Spook410  [Member]
2/16/2009 5:29:57 PM EST
Would be nice if we could pop the data into a computer model. Maybe one day.

The only thing I wanted to say was that over $1 a round is not too much to pay for ammo meeting this requirement. I know many say you have to practice with what your defense ammo but I will continue to shoot WalMart brass CCI for practice and carry CorBon 125 gr DPX as a defensive load. Just wish Reeds made 9mm.. they have the Hornady DPX bullet in several loads a lot cheaper than I've seen it elsewhere.
87GN  [Team Member]
2/16/2009 5:32:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By Spook410:
Would be nice if we could pop the data into a computer model. Maybe one day.

The only thing I wanted to say was that over $1 a round is not too much to pay for ammo meeting this requirement. I know many say you have to practice with what your defense ammo but I will continue to shoot WalMart brass CCI for practice and carry CorBon 125 gr DPX as a defensive load. Just wish Reeds made 9mm.. they have the Hornady DPX bullet in several loads a lot cheaper than I've seen it elsewhere.


Streichers and MAH Supplies sell HST and Ranger T (and their bonded counterparts) for less than 50 cents a round. Gold Dot for a little more. All 3 are superior to any other bullet on the market.
Spook410  [Member]
2/16/2009 6:00:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Spook410:
Would be nice if we could pop the data into a computer model. Maybe one day.

The only thing I wanted to say was that over $1 a round is not too much to pay for ammo meeting this requirement. I know many say you have to practice with what your defense ammo but I will continue to shoot WalMart brass CCI for practice and carry CorBon 125 gr DPX as a defensive load. Just wish Reeds made 9mm.. they have the Hornady DPX bullet in several loads a lot cheaper than I've seen it elsewhere.


Streichers and MAH Supplies sell HST and Ranger T (and their bonded counterparts) for less than 50 cents a round. Gold Dot for a little more. All 3 are superior to any other bullet on the market.


$21 for 50 is very reasonable. Of course everything was back-ordered but good prices for a variety of things. And that was a Barnes DPX in the CorBon and more like $1.50 a round. The Hornady is an XTP I think.
45-Longslide  [Team Member]
2/17/2009 5:26:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By WRXGuyUSA:
While informative, this thread is just more of the same lab test data. All these lab tests are showing marginal increase in expansion with HST in gel/water/wet pack, but to what effect?

I have read NYPD has used 124 gr GD +P from their Glocks and seems happy with its effectiveness in real shooting events.

What LEOs are using 147 hst currently and what have the post-shooting reports said?

Just looking for more proof before I buy into the HST. I am looking for a non-+P round that will be easier to shoot for the females in my family so long as it does not sacrifice performance.


Yes, the NYPD is profeshunal enough:







ETA: Sorry, I spend too much time in GD.
WRXGuyUSA  [Member]
2/18/2009 8:20:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By Spook410:
Would be nice if we could pop the data into a computer model. Maybe one day.

The only thing I wanted to say was that over $1 a round is not too much to pay for ammo meeting this requirement. I know many say you have to practice with what your defense ammo but I will continue to shoot WalMart brass CCI for practice and carry CorBon 125 gr DPX as a defensive load. Just wish Reeds made 9mm.. they have the Hornady DPX bullet in several loads a lot cheaper than I've seen it elsewhere.


I don't think $1 a round is too much, but in the presence of very good field proven rounds for <$0.50 I choose to go with the later. Even if price was equal, I would probably lean towards the Federal/Speer product due to their experience with law enforcement and military. I'm an engineer involved in R&D for my career and it biases me towards real world experiences. There are still just too many factors involved for me to be won over by anything else.
Spook410  [Member]
2/18/2009 9:40:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By WRXGuyUSA:
Originally Posted By Spook410:
Would be nice if we could pop the data into a computer model. Maybe one day.

The only thing I wanted to say was that over $1 a round is not too much to pay for ammo meeting this requirement. I know many say you have to practice with what your defense ammo but I will continue to shoot WalMart brass CCI for practice and carry CorBon 125 gr DPX as a defensive load. Just wish Reeds made 9mm.. they have the Hornady DPX bullet in several loads a lot cheaper than I've seen it elsewhere.


I don't think $1 a round is too much, but in the presence of very good field proven rounds for <$0.50 I choose to go with the later. Even if price was equal, I would probably lean towards the Federal/Speer product due to their experience with law enforcement and military. I'm an engineer involved in R&D for my career and it biases me towards real world experiences. There are still just too many factors involved for me to be won over by anything else.


Agreed. Less than $0.5 is much better than $1.5 and thanks to the apparently always well informed 87GN for the websites. Still, I think the CorBon 125 gr DPX is a solid round that I'm sticking with for now. There is a side to engineering that accepts modeling (gel and subsequent analysis in this case) when it's been demonstrated as appropriate to the problem domain and the DPX looks pretty good for both expansion and penetration. That and the 80 rounds or so I have will last for quite a long time given the application. Finally, as a Chief Engineer and Engineering Program Manager with a solid background in IRAD development and evaluation, I can only say I still prefer my BMW 135 to the WRX.
WRXGuyUSA  [Member]
2/18/2009 10:05:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By Spook410:
Originally Posted By WRXGuyUSA:
Originally Posted By Spook410:
Would be nice if we could pop the data into a computer model. Maybe one day.

The only thing I wanted to say was that over $1 a round is not too much to pay for ammo meeting this requirement. I know many say you have to practice with what your defense ammo but I will continue to shoot WalMart brass CCI for practice and carry CorBon 125 gr DPX as a defensive load. Just wish Reeds made 9mm.. they have the Hornady DPX bullet in several loads a lot cheaper than I've seen it elsewhere.


I don't think $1 a round is too much, but in the presence of very good field proven rounds for <$0.50 I choose to go with the later. Even if price was equal, I would probably lean towards the Federal/Speer product due to their experience with law enforcement and military. I'm an engineer involved in R&D for my career and it biases me towards real world experiences. There are still just too many factors involved for me to be won over by anything else.


Agreed. Less than $0.5 is much better than $1.5 and thanks to the apparently always well informed 87GN for the websites. Still, I think the CorBon 125 gr DPX is a solid round that I'm sticking with for now. There is a side to engineering that accepts modeling (gel and subsequent analysis in this case) when it's been demonstrated as appropriate to the problem domain and the DPX looks pretty good for both expansion and penetration. That and the 80 rounds or so I have will last for quite a long time given the application. Finally, as a Chief Engineer and Engineering Program Manager with a solid background in IRAD development and evaluation, I can only say I still prefer my BMW 135 to the WRX.


I was trumped... All good points except I'll stick with Speer. I've been in R&D (funding/evaluation side) only 2 years.

I have the cheaper car (2002) and cheaper bullets, but I'm going for 90% function at 50% cost.

BTW, my boss has the 335i, but I haven't gotten to ride in it yet. I would get the 135i if I could afford it.
Nakanokalronin  [Member]
2/18/2009 2:42:04 PM EST
Because it expands well and people think it will have more "knock down power" because its heavier......whatever that means.

The 9mm round relies more on velocity to expand. The 45acp uses more mass to expand. I just go with the original grains in both, 45-230, 9-124 but in +P in the HSTs. The +P and standard pressure in both the 45 and 9mm has only a small amount of more felt recoil. Tested out of a full size and 3" 1911 (45acp) and a Tacitcal and 3" SC XD (9mm)

Most people opt for the heaviest round in any caliber thinking people are going to fly across the room when shot like in Replacement Killers. Proper penetration first, then expansion should be the order of importance.
87GN  [Team Member]
2/18/2009 3:09:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Because it expands well and people think it will have more "knock down power" because its heavier......whatever that means.

The 9mm round relies more on velocity to expand. The 45acp uses more mass to expand. I just go with the original grains in both, 45-230, 9-124 but in +P in the HSTs. The +P and standard pressure in both the 45 and 9mm has only a small amount of more felt recoil. Tested out of a full size and 3" 1911 (45acp) and a Tacitcal and 3" SC XD (9mm)

Most people opt for the heaviest round in any caliber thinking people are going to fly across the room when shot like in Replacement Killers. Proper penetration first, then expansion should be the order of inportance.


Sounds like you need to switch to 147 then.

FAIL-SAFE  [Member]
2/18/2009 4:32:57 PM EST
WRX, I can list a few PDs that issue 147gr 9mm loads.

Dallas, TX PD issues the 147gr Winchester Ranger Talon. Tthey switched from the 115gr Hornady XTP, and from the 115gr+P+ Remington JHP

Dallas Area Rapid Transit PD, TX issues the same round

San Diego, CA PD issue the same load.


Know why? Because it works.
45-Longslide  [Team Member]
2/18/2009 4:51:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Because it expands well and people think it will have more "knock down power" because its heavier......whatever that means.

The 9mm round relies more on velocity to expand. The 45acp uses more mass to expand. I just go with the original grains in both, 45-230, 9-124 but in +P in the HSTs. The +P and standard pressure in both the 45 and 9mm has only a small amount of more felt recoil. Tested out of a full size and 3" 1911 (45acp) and a Tacitcal and 3" SC XD (9mm)

Most people opt for the heaviest round in any caliber thinking people are going to fly across the room when shot like in Replacement Killers. Proper penetration first, then expansion should be the order of inportance.


Sounds like you need to switch to 147 then.

http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/9mm357.jpg


That's interesting that .357Sig doesn't do as well as 9mm. I wonder why? I'm pretty sold on heavier is better. I carry 147 HST in 9mm and 230 HST in .45.
87GN  [Team Member]
2/18/2009 4:53:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By 45-Longslide:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Because it expands well and people think it will have more "knock down power" because its heavier......whatever that means.

The 9mm round relies more on velocity to expand. The 45acp uses more mass to expand. I just go with the original grains in both, 45-230, 9-124 but in +P in the HSTs. The +P and standard pressure in both the 45 and 9mm has only a small amount of more felt recoil. Tested out of a full size and 3" 1911 (45acp) and a Tacitcal and 3" SC XD (9mm)

Most people opt for the heaviest round in any caliber thinking people are going to fly across the room when shot like in Replacement Killers. Proper penetration first, then expansion should be the order of inportance.


Sounds like you need to switch to 147 then.

http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/9mm357.jpg


That's interesting that .357Sig doesn't do as well as 9mm. I wonder why? I'm pretty sold on heavier is better. I carry 147 HST in 9mm and 230 HST in .45.


The added velocity is not always a good thing. Bullet design/construction/weight is more important, in my humble opinion.
brdvictim  [Team Member]
2/18/2009 5:01:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By Spook410:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Spook410:
Would be nice if we could pop the data into a computer model. Maybe one day.

The only thing I wanted to say was that over $1 a round is not too much to pay for ammo meeting this requirement. I know many say you have to practice with what your defense ammo but I will continue to shoot WalMart brass CCI for practice and carry CorBon 125 gr DPX as a defensive load. Just wish Reeds made 9mm.. they have the Hornady DPX bullet in several loads a lot cheaper than I've seen it elsewhere.


Streichers and MAH Supplies sell HST and Ranger T (and their bonded counterparts) for less than 50 cents a round. Gold Dot for a little more. All 3 are superior to any other bullet on the market.


$21 for 50 is very reasonable. Of course everything was back-ordered but good prices for a variety of things. And that was a Barnes DPX in the CorBon and more like $1.50 a round. The Hornady is an XTP I think.


230 gr TAP +P grom my 21 into 3 milk jugs.



Nakanokalronin  [Member]
2/18/2009 7:53:56 PM EST
Well I agree that velocity is not as important in .45acp. I think the 9mm should have a good amount of velocity to it. I don't need a heavier 147gr. The 124gr +P should do me fine at the original grain. Hell, a
Wolf Gold 7.62x25 HP 86gr. round has a velocity around 1400fps and expands to around .45 with a penetration depth of 11-12 inches. That's with a very basic HP design going high velocity. The velocity does help small light rounds to expand. This is the reason I won't use HP rounds in anything under 9mm. Not enough velocity to expand and if it does you probably won't get much penetration. In .45 though I don't feel bad using ball or HP for defense.
87GN  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 3:18:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Well I agree that velocity is not as important in .45acp. I think the 9mm should have a good amount of velocity to it. I don't need a heavier 147gr. The 124gr +P should do me fine at the original grain. Hell, a
Wolf Gold 7.62x25 HP 86gr. round has a velocity around 1400fps and expands to around .45 with a penetration depth of 11-12 inches. That's with a very basic HP design going high velocity. The velocity does help small light rounds to expand. This is the reason I won't use HP rounds in anything under 9mm. Not enough velocity to expand and if it does you probably won't get much penetration. In .45 though I don't feel bad using ball or HP for defense.


So how does this statement jive with this statement:

Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Because it expands well and people think it will have more "knock down power" because its heavier......whatever that means.

The 9mm round relies more on velocity to expand. The 45acp uses more mass to expand. I just go with the original grains in both, 45-230, 9-124 but in +P in the HSTs. The +P and standard pressure in both the 45 and 9mm has only a small amount of more felt recoil. Tested out of a full size and 3" 1911 (45acp) and a Tacitcal and 3" SC XD (9mm)

Most people opt for the heaviest round in any caliber thinking people are going to fly across the room when shot like in Replacement Killers. Proper penetration first, then expansion should be the order of inportance.


Given this chart? I mean, if you want the most penetration, followed by the most expansion, you're doing yourself a disservice by going with 124 +P.

http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/9mm357.jpg

cnatra  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 3:49:32 AM EST

taggage
Nakanokalronin  [Member]
2/19/2009 9:28:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Well I agree that velocity is not as important in .45acp. I think the 9mm should have a good amount of velocity to it. I don't need a heavier 147gr. The 124gr +P should do me fine at the original grain. Hell, a
Wolf Gold 7.62x25 HP 86gr. round has a velocity around 1400fps and expands to around .45 with a penetration depth of 11-12 inches. That's with a very basic HP design going high velocity. The velocity does help small light rounds to expand. This is the reason I won't use HP rounds in anything under 9mm. Not enough velocity to expand and if it does you probably won't get much penetration. In .45 though I don't feel bad using ball or HP for defense.


So how does this statement jive with this statement:

Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Because it expands well and people think it will have more "knock down power" because its heavier......whatever that means.

The 9mm round relies more on velocity to expand. The 45acp uses more mass to expand. I just go with the original grains in both, 45-230, 9-124 but in +P in the HSTs. The +P and standard pressure in both the 45 and 9mm has only a small amount of more felt recoil. Tested out of a full size and 3" 1911 (45acp) and a Tactical and 3" SC XD (9mm)

Most people opt for the heaviest round in any caliber thinking people are going to fly across the room when shot like in Replacement Killers. Proper penetration first, then expansion should be the order of importance.


Given this chart? I mean, if you want the most penetration, followed by the most expansion, you're doing yourself a disservice by going with 124 +P.

http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/9mm357.jpg



Whats not jiving? I put the similarities in bold. In my original post I probably could of worded that one part better as it looks like I perfer the +P in .45acp HST. I've tried it but prefer the standard pressure in ANY .45acp. That chart is also for the Winchester Ranger rounds which I don't use and never mentioned in my post. However according to that chart the 124gr. +P expanded larger in 3 of the 4 tests over the 147gr. and only an inch or less in penetration. Not enough of a difference to use a round that might not work in some 9mms.
ryann  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 9:55:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
WRX, I can list a few PDs that issue 147gr 9mm loads.

Dallas, TX PD issues the 147gr Winchester Ranger Talon. Tthey switched from the 115gr Hornady XTP, and from the 115gr+P+ Remington JHP

Dallas Area Rapid Transit PD, TX issues the same round

San Diego, CA PD issue the same load.


Know why? Because it works.


Dallas also allows the private purchase of 357Sig know why? Because it works.
+P 124 grain Gold Dot 9mm is just a little more than 100 ft per second slower than 124 grain 357Sig. IMHO it would make a much better round than the 147 grain.
I am not a fan of the 147 grain 9mm, having seen it's aftermath first hand, and knowing many more that have also seen it perform, but I'm not going to argue.
87GN  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 2:16:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Well I agree that velocity is not as important in .45acp. I think the 9mm should have a good amount of velocity to it. I don't need a heavier 147gr. The 124gr +P should do me fine at the original grain. Hell, a
Wolf Gold 7.62x25 HP 86gr. round has a velocity around 1400fps and expands to around .45 with a penetration depth of 11-12 inches. That's with a very basic HP design going high velocity. The velocity does help small light rounds to expand. This is the reason I won't use HP rounds in anything under 9mm. Not enough velocity to expand and if it does you probably won't get much penetration. In .45 though I don't feel bad using ball or HP for defense.


So how does this statement jive with this statement:

Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Because it expands well and people think it will have more "knock down power" because its heavier......whatever that means.

The 9mm round relies more on velocity to expand. The 45acp uses more mass to expand. I just go with the original grains in both, 45-230, 9-124 but in +P in the HSTs. The +P and standard pressure in both the 45 and 9mm has only a small amount of more felt recoil. Tested out of a full size and 3" 1911 (45acp) and a Tactical and 3" SC XD (9mm)

Most people opt for the heaviest round in any caliber thinking people are going to fly across the room when shot like in Replacement Killers. Proper penetration first, then expansion should be the order of importance.


Given this chart? I mean, if you want the most penetration, followed by the most expansion, you're doing yourself a disservice by going with 124 +P.

http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/9mm357.jpg



Whats not jiving? I put the similarities in bold. In my original post I probably could of worded that one part better as it looks like I perfer the +P in .45acp HST. I've tried it but prefer the standard pressure in ANY .45acp. That chart is also for the Winchester Ranger rounds which I don't use and never mentioned in my post. However according to that chart the 124gr. +P expanded larger in 3 of the 4 tests over the 147gr. and only an inch or less in penetration. Not enough of a difference to use a round that might not work in some 9mms.


I see...so you'd rather have .02" more expansion and 1.5-2" less penetration. That makes sense, considering that you said "Proper penetration first, then expansion should be the order of importance"
HoodyHoo21  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 4:23:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By brdvictim:
Originally Posted By Spook410:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Spook410:
Would be nice if we could pop the data into a computer model. Maybe one day.

The only thing I wanted to say was that over $1 a round is not too much to pay for ammo meeting this requirement. I know many say you have to practice with what your defense ammo but I will continue to shoot WalMart brass CCI for practice and carry CorBon 125 gr DPX as a defensive load. Just wish Reeds made 9mm.. they have the Hornady DPX bullet in several loads a lot cheaper than I've seen it elsewhere.


Streichers and MAH Supplies sell HST and Ranger T (and their bonded counterparts) for less than 50 cents a round. Gold Dot for a little more. All 3 are superior to any other bullet on the market.


$21 for 50 is very reasonable. Of course everything was back-ordered but good prices for a variety of things. And that was a Barnes DPX in the CorBon and more like $1.50 a round. The Hornady is an XTP I think.


230 gr TAP +P grom my 21 into 3 milk jugs.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa232/brdvictim/HPIM2669.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa232/brdvictim/HPIM2671.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa232/brdvictim/HPIM2672.jpg



No offense, but a 180 grain .40 HST round expands larger than that .45 Hornady....


I have also seen pictures of the .45 HST round COVERING a quarter....pretty impressive.
Nakanokalronin  [Member]
2/19/2009 5:09:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Well I agree that velocity is not as important in .45acp. I think the 9mm should have a good amount of velocity to it. I don't need a heavier 147gr. The 124gr +P should do me fine at the original grain. Hell, a
Wolf Gold 7.62x25 HP 86gr. round has a velocity around 1400fps and expands to around .45 with a penetration depth of 11-12 inches. That's with a very basic HP design going high velocity. The velocity does help small light rounds to expand. This is the reason I won't use HP rounds in anything under 9mm. Not enough velocity to expand and if it does you probably won't get much penetration. In .45 though I don't feel bad using ball or HP for defense.


So how does this statement jive with this statement:

Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Because it expands well and people think it will have more "knock down power" because its heavier......whatever that means.

The 9mm round relies more on velocity to expand. The 45acp uses more mass to expand. I just go with the original grains in both, 45-230, 9-124 but in +P in the HSTs. The +P and standard pressure in both the 45 and 9mm has only a small amount of more felt recoil. Tested out of a full size and 3" 1911 (45acp) and a Tactical and 3" SC XD (9mm)

Most people opt for the heaviest round in any caliber thinking people are going to fly across the room when shot like in Replacement Killers. Proper penetration first, then expansion should be the order of importance.


Given this chart? I mean, if you want the most penetration, followed by the most expansion, you're doing yourself a disservice by going with 124 +P.

http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/9mm357.jpg



Whats not jiving? I put the similarities in bold. In my original post I probably could of worded that one part better as it looks like I perfer the +P in .45acp HST. I've tried it but prefer the standard pressure in ANY .45acp. That chart is also for the Winchester Ranger rounds which I don't use and never mentioned in my post. However according to that chart the 124gr. +P expanded larger in 3 of the 4 tests over the 147gr. and only an inch or less in penetration. Not enough of a difference to use a round that might not work in some 9mms.


I see...so you'd rather have .02" more expansion and 1.5-2" less penetration. That makes sense, considering that you said "Proper penetration first, then expansion should be the order of importance"


Yea proper penetration meaning 12" or more. Those rounds seem to meet or exeed that so then it goes to expansion.
87GN  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 5:33:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Well I agree that velocity is not as important in .45acp. I think the 9mm should have a good amount of velocity to it. I don't need a heavier 147gr. The 124gr +P should do me fine at the original grain. Hell, a
Wolf Gold 7.62x25 HP 86gr. round has a velocity around 1400fps and expands to around .45 with a penetration depth of 11-12 inches. That's with a very basic HP design going high velocity. The velocity does help small light rounds to expand. This is the reason I won't use HP rounds in anything under 9mm. Not enough velocity to expand and if it does you probably won't get much penetration. In .45 though I don't feel bad using ball or HP for defense.


So how does this statement jive with this statement:

Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Because it expands well and people think it will have more "knock down power" because its heavier......whatever that means.

The 9mm round relies more on velocity to expand. The 45acp uses more mass to expand. I just go with the original grains in both, 45-230, 9-124 but in +P in the HSTs. The +P and standard pressure in both the 45 and 9mm has only a small amount of more felt recoil. Tested out of a full size and 3" 1911 (45acp) and a Tactical and 3" SC XD (9mm)

Most people opt for the heaviest round in any caliber thinking people are going to fly across the room when shot like in Replacement Killers. Proper penetration first, then expansion should be the order of importance.


Given this chart? I mean, if you want the most penetration, followed by the most expansion, you're doing yourself a disservice by going with 124 +P.

http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/9mm357.jpg



Whats not jiving? I put the similarities in bold. In my original post I probably could of worded that one part better as it looks like I perfer the +P in .45acp HST. I've tried it but prefer the standard pressure in ANY .45acp. That chart is also for the Winchester Ranger rounds which I don't use and never mentioned in my post. However according to that chart the 124gr. +P expanded larger in 3 of the 4 tests over the 147gr. and only an inch or less in penetration. Not enough of a difference to use a round that might not work in some 9mms.


I see...so you'd rather have .02" more expansion and 1.5-2" less penetration. That makes sense, considering that you said "Proper penetration first, then expansion should be the order of importance"


Yea proper penetration meaning 12" or more. Those rounds seem to meet or exeed that so then it goes to expansion.


People often mistake 12" for proper penetration. 12" is minimum penetration according to the FBI. They consider 16/18" to be optimal/maximum.
Nakanokalronin  [Member]
2/19/2009 7:15:31 PM EST
True. I could be wrong but are the FBI tests made so that proper penetration is at all angles no matter how the BG is standing,laying or sitting? If you take a 12" ruler and hold it around your body at different angles there should be more than enough penetration to hit vital organs. Even that Ranger chart shows at least 12" in different scenerios like clothing,except for the 357sig.
87GN  [Team Member]
2/19/2009 7:53:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
True. I could be wrong but are the FBI tests made so that proper penetration is at all angles no matter how the BG is standing,laying or sitting? If you take a 12" ruler and hold it around your body at different angles there should be more than enough penetration to hit vital organs. Even that Ranger chart shows at least 12" in different scenerios like clothing,except for the 357sig.


Not all BGs are 5'11 190 like me.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Scroll down to page 11.

If the bare minimum is acceptable to you, then stick with 124gr +P.

If you'd rather have something that exceeds the minimum, reliably, go with 147gr.
wheel  [Team Member]
2/24/2009 3:08:25 PM EST
http://federalhst.com/

http://frag.110mb.com/

http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-2.html

http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-3.html

http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-7.html


After seeing all this it's clear that the 147 gr HST is really pretty impressive compared to the rest.
Zhukov  [Team Member]
2/24/2009 3:51:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Because it expands well and people think it will have more "knock down power" because its heavier......whatever that means.

The 9mm round relies more on velocity to expand. The 45acp uses more mass to expand. I just go with the original grains in both, 45-230, 9-124 but in +P in the HSTs. The +P and standard pressure in both the 45 and 9mm has only a small amount of more felt recoil. Tested out of a full size and 3" 1911 (45acp) and a Tacitcal and 3" SC XD (9mm)

Most people opt for the heaviest round in any caliber thinking people are going to fly across the room when shot like in Replacement Killers. Proper penetration first, then expansion should be the order of importance.

Care to explain that statement? I'd love to hear your take on that...

You're completely missing the point on the lighter/faster vs. heavier/slower debate. The whole reason heavier bullets penetrate deeper (which is what you list as the primary importance and with which I agree) is that heavier bullets retain more MOMENTUM. This is true whether we're talking about shooting 1000+ yards (would you use a 100gr bullet or a 180gr bullet to reach that far?) or whehte you're talking about penetrating living tissue.

That being said, there are plenty of recommended bullets in the 124gr weight range in the FAQ list.
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