AR15.Com Archives
 Help picking out two snubbies
gadgetguy1288  [Team Member]
1/28/2012 1:37:47 AM
My wife has finally express interest in getting a CCW, and because of a medical condition, she doesn't have the dexterity in her hands to rack thhe slide on any semi autos except some .22's.

I'm looking to get her a 357 snub nose, don't say 38, if I'm getting a snub nose I want to get a 357, so I have the option, and these are her feelings as well

I also want to get her a .22 snub nose for cheaper practice at the range(and Ive wanted a snub nose 22 for a while as well lol) so I'd like them to be similar

I was looking at the LCR, and its still the top choice, but what are my other options?
Dieselman  [Member]
1/28/2012 2:12:26 AM
Easy, Ruger SP101
mkd66204  [Team Member]
1/28/2012 2:16:14 AM
clicky

AWellPlacedShot  [Member]
1/28/2012 2:29:22 AM
Originally Posted By mkd66204:
clicky



+1
Bud11  [Member]
1/28/2012 8:31:54 AM
The S&W's are very nice and reliable. I just got the model 60 3" and plan to carry it.
packingXDs  [Team Member]
1/28/2012 8:36:56 AM
My first question is has your SO ever shot a snub nose? Most women that I have ever had shoot a J-frame, even with just 38spl, won't pick it up a second time.
Lost_River  [Member]
1/28/2012 9:30:15 AM
Shooting an Airweight Smith with hot .38s loads such as factory +p 158 grain loads will literally leave most peoples hands aching in pain in short order.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you may not have much experience shooting snubbies. That is no problem, as everyone has to start somewhere. The issue with snubbies is that quite often when shooting .357s out of them the gain is minimal over .38s due to the fact that the extra powder ends up being burned outside the barrel in the form of muzzle flash. In fact it ends up being detrimental to a shooter focusing on the fundamentals of marksmanship.

The majority of experienced shooters find a good .38 load that they can make fast, accurate, repeated hits with meets their needs far better than 1 single .357 shot with flash and noise that hurts the shooter, is hard to manage and does not promote practicing learing a skill set with the actual firearm you will carry.

In regards to the Ruger SP101. It is a well built revolver. In fact it is built like a tank and will last a lifetime. That being said, for CCW, it is heavy and it is a 5 shooter. For that kind of weight and size in a revolver, I would rather carry a 2.5 " Model 19 or Model 66 with 6 shot capacity. Most shooters shoot a K frame Smith better too. The SP101 is a fine gun, but there is a reason the 2.5" Smith K frames have always been more popular.

FYI, I am in LE, I have been an NRA instructor since 1994. I have trained more than a couple of people on BUGs.

Just some friendly food for thought about reconsidering the .38/.357 snubby revolver issue. It is not about shooting manly .357 loads. It is about making fast repeated hits. If in doubt, take a timer to the range with a box of .38s and a box of .357s and an Airweight .357. Run a couple of El Presidente drills and Bill Drills and look at the score/time differences. When I have LEOs that are thick headed about the subject, I run them through the drills and watch as the light bulb comes on above their head.



packingXDs  [Team Member]
1/28/2012 9:45:43 AM

Originally Posted By Lost_River:
Shooting an Airweight Smith with hot .38s loads such as factory +p 158 grain loads will literally leave most peoples hands aching in pain in short order.


357 magnums in an airweight! Those are down right painful to anyone pulling the trigger.
Hawgleg44  [Team Member]
1/28/2012 10:19:56 AM
I agree with what's been posted above. .357's out of a lightweight revolver just plain suck.

I'm a big fan of S&W K-frame 2.5" and 3" snubs and have a few customs built for me by Karl Sokol at Chestnut Mountain Sports. In fact, I've been carrying a Sokol Custom since I turned 18, a long time ago.

K-frames are much more controllable than J-frames, and not much harder to conceal with a good holster. If you do go with a J-frame S&W, get an older one, before the lock. I've personally had a lock engage on me one time, luckily at the range, and will never trust one to protect my life ever again.

Ruger makes revolvers about 5x stronger than they have to be, which is not a bad thing at all. One of my favorite revolvers of all time is a 3" SP-101 .357mag, loaded with .38's. My neighbor has one and I can't seem to talk him out of it.

All the lightweight revolvers are nice to carry, but they really aren't any fun to shoot. And, if you don't practice with a snub, good luck hitting something under stress much past contact distance. And, if you carry a snub, you owe it to yourself to learn everything about it by taking a class with Michael de Bethencourt of SnubTraining.Com. I've trained with a lot of people, but his classes are by far the best I've ever attended. You will not only learn how to run your snubs, but he teaches you the limitations, desired modifications, sights, etc. And, you'll be issued 3 different speed loaders and a speed strip at the beginning of the class to use. You'll learn how to fight with your snub like no other class I've ever taken.

As I said, I strongly discourage anyone from carrying a S&W revolver with an internal lock. It was one of those "Oh SH**!" moments at the range. Imagine what would have happened if it happened when I was forced to use the revolver to protect my life. I'm not bashing S&W at all. I love my Smiths. But the internal lock, especially on a lightweight revolver, is going to get someone killed. It WILL happen sometime, and I won't be me. I don't own a single S&W revolver with a lock, except for my .22lr 317 snub, which is an excellent training companion to your full caliber snub.

I'm not extremely sensitive to recoil. I don't enjoy it like I used to when I was younger though. I just bought a Charter Arms Bulldog Pug last week in .44 Special and it's rapidly becoming my favorite carry gun. But, .357 Magnum in a lightweight revolver? No way.
Dieselman  [Member]
1/28/2012 10:38:17 AM
Originally Posted By Lost_River:
Shooting an Airweight Smith with hot .38s loads such as factory +p 158 grain loads will literally leave most peoples hands aching in pain in short order.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you may not have much experience shooting snubbies. That is no problem, as everyone has to start somewhere. The issue with snubbies is that quite often when shooting .357s out of them the gain is minimal over .38s due to the fact that the extra powder ends up being burned outside the barrel in the form of muzzle flash. In fact it ends up being detrimental to a shooter focusing on the fundamentals of marksmanship.

The majority of experienced shooters find a good .38 load that they can make fast, accurate, repeated hits with meets their needs far better than 1 single .357 shot with flash and noise that hurts the shooter, is hard to manage and does not promote practicing learing a skill set with the actual firearm you will carry.

In regards to the Ruger SP101. It is a well built revolver. In fact it is built like a tank and will last a lifetime. That being said, for CCW, it is heavy and it is a 5 shooter. For that kind of weight and size in a revolver, I would rather carry a 2.5 " Model 19 or Model 66 with 6 shot capacity. Most shooters shoot a K frame Smith better too. The SP101 is a fine gun, but there is a reason the 2.5" Smith K frames have always been more popular.

FYI, I am in LE, I have been an NRA instructor since 1994. I have trained more than a couple of people on BUGs.

Just some friendly food for thought about reconsidering the .38/.357 snubby revolver issue. It is not about shooting manly .357 loads. It is about making fast repeated hits. If in doubt, take a timer to the range with a box of .38s and a box of .357s and an Airweight .357. Run a couple of El Presidente drills and Bill Drills and look at the score/time differences. When I have LEOs that are thick headed about the subject, I run them through the drills and watch as the light bulb comes on above their head.





Very well said sir
mkd66204  [Team Member]
1/28/2012 10:47:40 AM
I was pissed when S&W started putting internal locks in their guns.. I agree with getting one without the lock for the exact stated reasons. Altough one engaging when it shouldnt is rare, as stated it does happen
keninnavarre  [Team Member]
1/28/2012 11:32:00 AM
Originally Posted By gadgetguy1288:
My wife has finally express interest in getting a CCW, and because of a medical condition, she doesn't have the dexterity in her hands to rack thhe slide on any semi autos except some .22's.

I'm looking to get her a 357 snub nose, don't say 38, if I'm getting a snub nose I want to get a 357, so I have the option, and these are her feelings as well

I also want to get her a .22 snub nose for cheaper practice at the range(and Ive wanted a snub nose 22 for a while as well lol) so I'd like them to be similar

I was looking at the LCR, and its still the top choice, but what are my other options?


My wife has arthritis in her hands, and a problem with semi auto slide manipulation. My suggestion is whatever you choose, let her try the trigger on the actual gun she is buying before purchase. We shot a friends well used 442 Smith at the range. I ordered a 642 from Bud's and my wife hated the thing. Trigger pull off the charts. I did slick it up after alot of dry firing and range time, but she went back with her old Charter Arms for carry.

By the way, the Charter Arms has been a good gun, no problems at all. I wouldnt hesitate to recommend one.
Hawgleg44  [Team Member]
1/28/2012 1:02:43 PM
Originally Posted By keninnavarre:
By the way, the Charter Arms has been a good gun, no problems at all. I wouldnt hesitate to recommend one.


For $275 NIB, I'm impressed with my .44 Special Bulldog Pug so far. It's no S&W or Ruger, but for the money it's hard to beat.

For a .22lr snub, buy a 317.

Lost_River  [Member]
1/28/2012 5:40:03 PM
Thanks for the positive response gentlemen.

I simply wanted to have the OP reconsider/re evaluate his choices and take some friendly advice from someone who has seen many go down that path.

BTW, every day I go to work, this is my BUG:

keninnavarre  [Team Member]
1/28/2012 10:55:11 PM
Originally Posted By Lost_River:
Thanks for the positive response gentlemen.

I simply wanted to have the OP reconsider/re evaluate his choices and take some friendly advice from someone who has seen many go down that path.

BTW, every day I go to work, this is my BUG:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/001-19.jpg


I agree with you 100%. I have a 640 in all stainless, which is no lightweight. Its VERY uncomfortable with .357 ammo. Its great with +p .38 spc. Your earlier advice is spot on, Sir.
mkd66204  [Team Member]
1/28/2012 11:03:25 PM
Originally Posted By keninnavarre:
Originally Posted By Lost_River:
Thanks for the positive response gentlemen.

I simply wanted to have the OP reconsider/re evaluate his choices and take some friendly advice from someone who has seen many go down that path.

BTW, every day I go to work, this is my BUG:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/001-19.jpg


I agree with you 100%. I have a 640 in all stainless, which is no lightweight. Its VERY uncomfortable with .357 ammo. Its great with +p .38 spc. Your earlier advice is spot on, Sir.


I was giving the benefit of doubt to the OP that he already was aware of this and took it into consideration. That being said it is good advice.
Ameshawki  [Member]
1/29/2012 11:59:03 AM
If she can't rack the slide on a auto a 357 snub isn't going to work either. Recoil on 357 snubs tends toward the brutal.
Scumrunner  [Member]
1/29/2012 3:12:04 PM
I agree. I carry a S&W model 360 and it's down right brutal with 158gr. .357 Mag loads. A S&W model 29 .44 Mag is a pussycat compared to this.

For women I recommend .38 special starting out for conceal carry. Later after lots of practice then they can decide to go with the more powerful magnum round.
Hawgleg44  [Team Member]
1/29/2012 5:46:51 PM
Like I posted above, I wouldn't bother with a .357 Magnum vs a .38 Special for a snub round. In the March/April issue of American Handgunner there is an outstanding article saying pretty much what I've always said about defensive ammo. Get any modern, quality JHP design in a caliber 9mm/.38 Special or above, and it will work well to defend yourself.

I see articles in magazines and posts online on just about every firearms related forum about how this JHP is better than that JHP and this one moves 20 fps faster than that one, etc. I saw a post recently that said the individual's preferred self defense round "drops you like a rock". Sure, I wish there was a handgun bullet that did that. Check out the "Insider" column by Roy Huntington on page 122 (back of the magazine). I agree with every word he wrote, and it's about time someone said it. It won't sell a lot of the newest, most high tech JHP's out there. It's just the plain truth.

For your wife, get a fairly lightweight, standard pressure .38 Special JHP so she can control the handgun witout instilling a flinch that will take tens of thousands of .22lr's to get rid of. She absolutely doesn't need a .357 Magnum in even a K-frame, let alone a lightweight snub.
joemama74  [Team Member]
1/29/2012 6:32:12 PM
Meh... Everyone complains the sp101 is too heavy to carry but too light to shoot.

And last time I checked, there just aren't a lot of new 357 k frames, especially of the 2 - 3 inch variety.

Dig around, you find that 1200fps isn't uncommon out of a 357 snubbie.
Hawgleg44  [Team Member]
1/29/2012 6:47:31 PM
Originally Posted By joemama74:
Meh... Everyone complains the sp101 is too heavy to carry but too light to shoot.

And last time I checked, there just aren't a lot of new 357 k frames, especially of the 2 - 3 inch variety.

Dig around, you find that 1200fps isn't uncommon out of a 357 snubbie.


No, there aren't any new .357 K-frames. As I posted above, I wouldn't recommend ANY new S&W revolver with the internal lock. After having one engage on me during firing, I'll never trust m life to one. I buy 95% of my guns used.

1200 fps out of a .357 snub. OK, but the excessive muzzle blast and recoil make follow up shots much slower. Shoot a .38 in the same revolver, get almost as much "stopping power", and be able to make a follow up shot much faster.

shadowcop  [Team Member]
1/29/2012 7:06:58 PM
I carry Win PDX .38 +P in my .357 snub. Much easier on the hand, less muzzle blast, less flip.
atram6  [Team Member]
1/29/2012 11:07:24 PM
Originally Posted By AWellPlacedShot:
Originally Posted By mkd66204:
clicky



+1


++1

joemama74  [Team Member]
1/30/2012 12:40:44 AM
Originally Posted By Hawgleg44:
Originally Posted By joemama74:
Meh... Everyone complains the sp101 is too heavy to carry but too light to shoot.

And last time I checked, there just aren't a lot of new 357 k frames, especially of the 2 - 3 inch variety.

Dig around, you find that 1200fps isn't uncommon out of a 357 snubbie.


No, there aren't any new .357 K-frames. As I posted above, I wouldn't recommend ANY new S&W revolver with the internal lock. After having one engage on me during firing, I'll never trust m life to one. I buy 95% of my guns used.

1200 fps out of a .357 snub. OK, but the excessive muzzle blast and recoil make follow up shots much slower. Shoot a .38 in the same revolver, get almost as much "stopping power", and be able to make a follow up shot much faster.



Here it is on Hornady's page, both 8" and 2" velocities on their critical defense ammo: http://www.hornady.com/store/357-Mag-125-gr-Critical-Defense/

To be fair, here they list the 125 gr 38 spec load with an xtp bullet, but they only list it on a 4" barrel: http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Special-125-gr-XTP/

So, 400lbs out of a 2" 357 or 290lbs out of a 4" 38.

I'm not gonna bash on the 38, I shoot it a lot too, but there are differences between the two calibers, even with a short barrel.
Hawgleg44  [Team Member]
1/30/2012 9:20:41 AM
Originally Posted By joemama74:
Originally Posted By Hawgleg44:
Originally Posted By joemama74:
Meh... Everyone complains the sp101 is too heavy to carry but too light to shoot.

And last time I checked, there just aren't a lot of new 357 k frames, especially of the 2 - 3 inch variety.

Dig around, you find that 1200fps isn't uncommon out of a 357 snubbie.


No, there aren't any new .357 K-frames. As I posted above, I wouldn't recommend ANY new S&W revolver with the internal lock. After having one engage on me during firing, I'll never trust m life to one. I buy 95% of my guns used.

1200 fps out of a .357 snub. OK, but the excessive muzzle blast and recoil make follow up shots much slower. Shoot a .38 in the same revolver, get almost as much "stopping power", and be able to make a follow up shot much faster.



Here it is on Hornady's page, both 8" and 2" velocities on their critical defense ammo: http://www.hornady.com/store/357-Mag-125-gr-Critical-Defense/

To be fair, here they list the 125 gr 38 spec load with an xtp bullet, but they only list it on a 4" barrel: http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Special-125-gr-XTP/

So, 400lbs out of a 2" 357 or 290lbs out of a 4" 38.

I'm not gonna bash on the 38, I shoot it a lot too, but there are differences between the two calibers, even with a short barrel.


I absolutely wasn't saying there isn't a difference in velocity, I'm just saying that too many people get hung up on the velocity issue. Have you ever shot a .357 Mag out of a lightweight snub? I have. Two shots. That was enough for me, and anyone who says they don't have to adjust their grip after each shot must have a bionic hand.

So, with the stats you listed above, would you rather have one shot with a lot of energy, then if you miss or need another shot, have to readjust your grip and recover from excessive recoil, or ammo from a .38 Special with less energy that you can control? I know what I choose.
shooter220  [Team Member]
1/30/2012 10:28:48 AM
In my opinion, one of the keys is practice - don't worry so much about getting the most barn-burning loads. Instead, worry about something she will shoot. The SP101 is something that she can practice with a pretty decent amount. In the LCR, the .357 has a couple extra ounces of weight, making it more attractive to me even for just shooting .38s in it. In the J-frames, I would stick to the steel variety. The Ti and Sc guns, are awesomely light, but they may as well be single shots in my mind. It takes that long to a) get them back on target/fix your grip and b) re-acquire sights after basically getting flashblinded. The aluminum airweights are as light as I would recommend going. Also take a look at the Beretta Tomcat (I think I have the name right) .32 with the tip-up barrel. Means she doesn't have to try to rack a slide, ever. It is "just" a .32, but it is better than nothing.

-shooter

morrisnote  [Member]
1/30/2012 12:48:08 PM
I love wheel guns. I retired a while ago, and I spend my time customizing wheelguns. I spent six years in fairbanks alaska where we were members in a club where you had your own key to the range. You could go in any time of the day or night. While on my toour. I bought a Colt trooper 357/ 38spl, and a Colt Trooper 22 Long Rifle. Both four inch, and both the same size and weight.

We would snap in with the 22, once the groups got good, then start shooting with the 38 SPL. With the advent of the new technology surrounding the +P They have made a great alternative to the 357. A Charging 300lb PCP Powered Head long Rape Rob and Plunder machine? Feed that one Some of Mr Hornadys Best 357 medicine, take six and call me in the morning.

If you want to try to keep the same weight and size trooper is the best way to go. you can get both guns for under $1200

64 to 69 Semper Fi

Im looking for Ajax Grips to fit a Colt Det Spl New D Frame all I can get any color #08-Ivory Or BP or WP or something, anything

Morrisnote@cs.com
fourxfour  [Member]
1/30/2012 6:00:25 PM
While I do prefer my S&W 340M&P. The LCR is still a great choice. The .357 version is slightly heavier and may help recoil when shooting .38/.38+p.

Ruger also just released a .22 version of the LCR. Great option for training or possibly self defense if sensitivity to recoil is a major issue.
gadgetguy1288  [Team Member]
1/30/2012 10:31:02 PM
Thanks for all the info and help guys, I didn't mean to say that I was going to make her carry 357's, I just would rather have the option without having to buy another gun, when I could have the option from the start.

And I would take her to a range to try some out, but there's not any that rent small revolvers around me. I'm still leaning towards LCR, cuz I can start her on the 22, and then move her up the 357, and get her shooting 38's