380 round, are +P's actually better?

i've been searching online trying to find specificatios on 380 rounds, from difference brands, for velocity, etc.... but have had no luck other than random youtube videos. i currently carry HST round in my 380 and my 40. I see all this hype about buffalo bore +P ( http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=29) I never really understood the difference in grain, but thats for another day, and it looks like the 90gr has better velocity than the 95gr)

does anyone think +P ammunition (in a sig p238) would cause that big of a difference over 380 HST rounds?

oh, and on their website they say if you like the hole their JHP makes, put that in your chamber, and fill your magazine with their flat nose round, which is meant to go straight through bones..... actuallly heres the copy and paste:


JHP
If you like the idea of the extra big hole this expanding load makes in human flesh, we would advise that you load this bullet in your chamber, followed by a magazine full of our non-expanding loads. So, if the first shot does not incapacitate the attacker, your magazine is full of ammo that will, if you can put the bullet in his spine or brain from any angle.

FLAT NOSE ROUND
The flat on the nose ensures that the bullet will cut/smash its way through flesh and bone and do much more destruction than typical round nose FMJ bullets. Round nosed bullets tend to slip and slide through matter, doing little damage as opposed to a flat nosed bullet. The flat nose not only wounds much more than a round nosed bullet, but it actually keeps the penetration straight and thus deeper. Notice the below velocities recorded from my personal 380 auto pistols. These are real world guns and thus the speeds are realistic and not exaggerated speeds produced from laboratory test barrels. What you see with Buffalo Bore Ammo, is truly what you get in the "real world", where it matters. You can expect 20+ inches of straight-line penetration in flesh and bone with this load.

SO....
Using their theory, wouldn't it be best to load the gun... JHP, FMJ, JHP, FMJ, JHP, FMJ, etc...?

There is no such designation from the SAAMI. There is a .257 +P, a .38 +P 9mm +P and .45 +P, but there is NO 380+P. What you're seeing is hype or a way they have of selling their ammo. Basically I would just avoid them and use straight ball ammo.

As far as hollow points in .380? Steer clear of them. While you MAY find one that expands, it will be guaranteed to under penetrate (remember the 12" minimum?) in a human body. The .380 does not develop enough energy to push an expanded bullet that deep into a human body.

The above poster is pretty much correct. The most current thinking on .380 is that it just isn't enough round to expand and penetrate deep enough to disrupt vital organs. There is only so much power in that tiny case.

O.P. The grains of a bullet are the weight, there are 7000 grains in a pound. A lighter bullet will likely be moving faster, but probably not penetrate as deeply.

the FBI standard is at least 12 inches of penetration. Most people aren't 12 inches thick, but the FBI standards take into account "intermediate barriers" like hands and arms. If your assailant is pointing a gun at you , for instance, your round may have to penetrate his arm/hands to reach something that will stop him.(heart/lungs/etc) This is where the 12 inch penetration minimum comes from.

The hollow point rounds available in .380 tend to penetrate less. The expanding bullet acts sort of like a parachute in the tissue. They make a larger wound channel and crush more tissue, but if they fail to get to vital structures they will not be very effective against a determined attacker.

Round nose bullets push through tissue, sometimes sliding sideways against bones and other harder barriers (ligaments/ cartilage). Flat nose bullets have less of a tendency to push past objects, but push straight through. The flat point crushes more tissue as it pushes through tissue.

Most hollow points in .380 will penetrate 8-10 inches, round nose 16-20, and flat point 16-18. From gel testing I've seen. There is no industry standard for +p in .380, Buffalo Bore loads some hot stuff, and may be too much for your gun causing premature wear or even failure.

I do occasionally carry .380, I consider it less than the best choice, but mine is loaded with Winchester white box, FMJ (full metal jacket) flat point. They run the gun without problems, and will penetrate 16 inches or so. They won't expand, but they will get deep enough.

Life is about trade-offs, and that's the side I fall on for .380. Hope this helps you make good decisions. YMMV


ETA: in looking again at O.P.s post, the alternating of FMJ/JHP rounds in the magazine (often called Dutch loading) sounds, to me, like a bad idea. there is one kind of ammo in my .380, I know what to expect. I don't have to remember how many rounds I've shot, or what order they're in. If I get involved in a self defense shooting, I don't want to have to do math in my head while it's going on. I say pick one, know what you have, plan accordingly.

that's my opinion, and you got it for free.

Generally +P means you get more recoil, noise and flash for a minimal gain in velocity. The additional velocity doe not seem to translate in to better terminal ballistics. It can cause an otherwise good performing JHP to over-expand and penetrate LESS. Penetration scales more reliably with projectile weight than velocity. Heavier is generally better.

.380 is a borderline caliber - you can get expansion or the 12" FBI minimum penetration but not both.

i just watched a youtube test by TNTOUTDOORS of the hornady critical defense rounds (with the plastic insert) and that expanded and went 11.5 inches, but of course thats homemade simulated gelatin (although he claims it is pretty close to the right specs)

and all these videos of people shooting through denim, and sometimes the JHP get clogged and don't open...... i know that it doesn't happen that often, but will cotton clothing do the same thing or only the thicker denim, the reason I ask if because I don't remember the last time I saw someone wearing a denim top, whether it be a shirt or a jacket, and i'm not going to aim for the crotch, at least not with the first 5 shots....

The 4 layer denim test is sort of a, "worst case scenario," for clothing. If a HP round can pass the 4LD test, it's good to go. Denim is one of only a few clothing materials that will readily clog a hollow point. Cotton, generally, (unless worn in MANY layers) won't produce a clogged hollow point.

Hornady includes this plastic insert to prevent clogging and ensure expansion.

Two things to note about that test. If it's the same one I'm thinking of: 1. He uses a longer barreled pistol than the 2.75" of the typical pocket pistols which justify foregoing 9mm. 2. The 4 layer denim test usually results in less expansion than usual, and in this case the polymer tip remained in the partially expanded cavity acting as a piercing tool at the front of the expanded round–– something that would actually cause the higher velocity to work in favor of penetration. This piercing effect is probably why .380 HydraShoks from 2.75" barrels tend to just reach 12" with regularity despite a nearly identical mushroom profile as Hornady XTP which lacks the post and tends to penetrate around 11". The consistency of tnoutdoors9's testing methods and analogous performance of the various ammunition he tests to the laboratory gel results available leads me to think he's indeed found a calibrated gel analog in his diluted SimTest media, though it seems the BB penetration depth he reports does vary and seems to correlate to variances in bullet penetration relative to laboratory gel tests for the same loads. The usual bare and light clothing gel tests of Critical Defense .380 I see come in around 8-9", as do most other large expanding hollowpoints. XTPs and HydraShoks tend to go deeper because they tend to expand to a very limited diameter, sharp shouldered mushroom. I consider this an acceptable balance in a .380.

I have been buying hundreds of guns for overload experiments for many years.
I know a lot about what can be done in the margin between SAAMI max pressure and what the gun and brass with actually take.

For simplification, let's break 380s into 3 categories:
1) Heavy slide, good case support, good firing pin to firing pin hole fit, and thick chamber walls.
Can shoot 200% extra powder
2) Medium slide, medium case support, ok firing pin fit, and ok chamber walls.
Can shoot 100% extra powder.
3) Fly weight slide, poor case support, sloppy firing pin, paper thin chamber walls.
Can shoot 0% extra powder.

The absolute worst pistols out there in 380 that I have tested are the Kel-Tec P3AT and the Ruger LCP.
The most I can squeeze out of them is 1100 fps 90 gr Gold Dot, and that is with the occasional case bulge. No safety margin, right on the edge.
These pistols have case support at 0.29" and 0.27" and the 380 brass has a web .175" thick.
SAAMI max average registered pressure is 21.5kpsi and proof loads to 30kpsi.
These pistols start bulging around 25kpsi in Quickload predictions that match the chronograph.



So I was surprised to see Buffalobore says their +P will do 1100 fps 90gr.

Do they know something I don't?

Not to steal this thread but i have a question to add in since i'm looking for good self defense ammo for .380 myself.

Is everyone here pretty much recommending not to load hollow point ammo of any kind into a .380 because of low penetration? what about soft nose instead of FMJ?

Re-read Velveteenmole's post again. Hornady's XTP has the most reliable expansion, maybe not the largest diameter but it always penetrates approx. 11 inches and expands to the same size.

Pushing a 90gr bullet faster in most of the other HP designs tends to make it mushroom more and exacerbate the penetration problem with more surface resistance. The XTP's seem to get around this by expanding to only about .42-.44

Re-read Velveteenmole's post again. Hornady's XTP has the most reliable expansion,


I would think the HST would be more reliable at expanding NOT PLUGING or even the Ranger T & B

I do like the XTP But I use them for practice

I know a lot of people who love corbon dpx. Expands great but only 10" of penetration. Reasonable tradeoff?

Your typical .380 pocket pistol is for use within 15ft, maybe closer... maybe further. But, the research I've done tells me it almost doesn't matter what you load your .380 pistol with at such close ranges. I would assume one would carry the .380 in warmer months, where the BG probably won't be wearing much clothing... usually a T-shirt, up to a hoodie. .380 FMJs as well as HPs will penetrate these articles of clothing within 15ft with little difficulty. Even if your .380 HP only penetrates 5in... that can still be right in the heart, lungs, brain, liver, throat or any other organ or vital area cuasing enough damage to at least temporarily stun the BG, thus allowing follow-up shots of said HPs. These follow-up shots may be in the bread-basket, the head, neck, back(if BG is hunching over due to being shot), pelvis(aweful place to be shot, very painfull I read), etc. If you are able to get off 5-6rds at close range(15ft or less) of .380 anything into a BG, unless he is the size of an ape or really high on something... you'll stop the attack.

Keep in mind, one does not have to kill someone to stop an attack. It helps, yes.... but not a requirement. If it's during the colder months, I'd like to think many of use carry something with a littel more heft(9mm, .40, .45, etc) so, we won't get into that. Whatever you carry, make sure you've trained with it, and with the ammo you choose to carry in the weapon. Effective training is more important the FMJ or HP..... IMO.

I fall on the FMJ side in the .380.

The other posters are correct that there is no SAMMI +p designation in .380. Like everything else I take that with a grain of salt. SAMMI also doesn't have a 9mm +P+ designation, although Federal, Speer, and Winchester all load them, and they have been recommended highly over the years.

For safety I wouldn't shoot the BB+p .380s in those little KT or LCPs, but I wouldn't have a problem in one of the larger steel guns.

YMMV

FB

Just for information's sake, I've clocked some loads from my Kel-Tec P3AT over a chronograph, and the averages are:

95 grain Winchester Ranger-T - 870 fps
90 grain Speer Gold Dot - 989 fps
80 grain Cor-Bon DPX - 1,007 fps
100 grain Buffalo Bore Hard Cast - 1,033 fps


The averages are from at least five shots, sometimes more. I shot the Ranger-Ts into water jugs and they didn't expand, which is not surprising. I haven't shot the other ones into water. I carried the Buffalo Bore Hard Cast for a couple of years, but recently switched to Gold Dots because they're far more easy on the gun; I can see where the barrel hood is peening the breech face from the several boxes of the Hard Cast, and I don't want to ruin the gun. The recoil from the Cor-Bon and Hard Cast loads is way more blasty than anything I've put through it.

I carry the BB 100gr HC +P load in my Colt Mustang Pocketlite and my Walther PPK. Don't know if I would trust an LCP or a P3AT with it. Used to own a P3AT and it just didn't seem that robust. Ended up using either a J-frame or my Kimber Solo to fill that need.

How deep did the Ranger Ts penetrate in water? I've fired Winchester 85 grain Silvertips into water jugs and got good expansion bare but only 2 jugs of penetration.

I'm not worried about penetration because the use of this firearm is 15 foot extra-personal, not firing through barriers or quartering shots. Remember, the 12" of penetration was based on the Miami shoot-out. Sub-compact pistols are a compromise for deep concealment. Reliability and accuracy trumps 12" of penetration.

I would only use FMJ in .380. I no longer have any .380, but when I did I loaded FMJ.

I think it is.




Agreed.

I didn't measure, but I found it in the second jug. Here's a picture of the bullet:

Not a fan of Buffalo Bore .380, my brother bought some to try in his LCP, it simply would not feed. This particular gun had never failed with any other round before, HP or FMJ. The idea of +P in a .380 is just

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