Archived Posts » 59,757,950
5.45 x 39 pistol
7/23/2011 9:05:15 PM
who makes a good one: thanks
7/23/2011 9:26:52 PM
Alert: Prepare for the do not ruin cheap Russian surplus ammo onslaught.
7/23/2011 9:51:07 PM
Originally Posted By HankZudd:
who makes a good one: thanks
who makes a good one: thanks
7/23/2011 10:03:43 PM
NOW I know I'm gonna like this thread,,,,,
7/23/2011 10:35:03 PM
The reason this is especially problematic is that the only source of cheap 5.45 that justifies the economics of the round is the cheap N76 surplus, which has a steel core. It's intent is to slide inside the jacket and redistribute the weight on impact to guarantee tumbling, not be armor piercing, but the ATF wouldn't care.
We got screwed back in the 90's when Olympic made a 7.62x39 AR, despite being begged not to, and the ATF classified the cheap steel core 7.62 as "steel core armor piercing HANDGUN ammunition" now that there was a handgun that could fire it.
Back then, the steel core from China etc. was just because it was CHEAP, the steel saved them a penny of lead per round, and back then the savings were passed onto us, when you could still get 1k cases of 7.62 for under $99.... The ATF, they saw an opening to get lots of ammo banned and took it. We don't want the same thing to happen to 5.45.
As to 5.45 pistols, I'm sure people have made them, but once an established maker produces one in any numbers, it won't fly under the radar, and the sub-$200 spam cans that make 5.45 attractive in the first place will go bye-bye.
We got screwed back in the 90's when Olympic made a 7.62x39 AR, despite being begged not to, and the ATF classified the cheap steel core 7.62 as "steel core armor piercing HANDGUN ammunition" now that there was a handgun that could fire it.
Back then, the steel core from China etc. was just because it was CHEAP, the steel saved them a penny of lead per round, and back then the savings were passed onto us, when you could still get 1k cases of 7.62 for under $99.... The ATF, they saw an opening to get lots of ammo banned and took it. We don't want the same thing to happen to 5.45.
As to 5.45 pistols, I'm sure people have made them, but once an established maker produces one in any numbers, it won't fly under the radar, and the sub-$200 spam cans that make 5.45 attractive in the first place will go bye-bye.
7/24/2011 3:00:51 AM
there's already a bunch of 5.45 pistols out there
7/24/2011 8:20:27 AM
thanks...
7/24/2011 1:12:53 PM
Originally Posted By MAKAK47:
there's already a bunch of 5.45 pistols out there
there's already a bunch of 5.45 pistols out there
Yes, there are probably a number of smiths who'll make them quietly for those who ask, and home-builders who've done so as well. There's really nothing wrong with it, as the whole "Shall not be infringed thing" kind of trumps the ATF's rules. As long as one does not turn up in some sort of high profile crime or whatnot, these scattered examples probably won't matter.
It's just something we want to keep out of any major makers catalogs.
7/24/2011 8:51:20 PM
The 5,45 round is comparable to the 5.56 penetrator and they are making AR pistols and the ammo is everywhere. I call bullshit. Besides, AP mouse calibers are good for piercing squirrels and plastic fenders on contemporary automobiles.
If I was in the manufacturing biz, I'd market one just to dispel yet another intardnet horseshit myth. Your cheap ammo will inevitably disappear with the value of the dollar anyway.
If I was in the manufacturing biz, I'd market one just to dispel yet another intardnet horseshit myth. Your cheap ammo will inevitably disappear with the value of the dollar anyway.
7/24/2011 9:30:29 PM
Originally Posted By Surly:
The 5,45 round is comparable to the 5.56 penetrator and they are making AR pistols and the ammo is everywhere. I call bullshit. Besides, AP mouse calibers are good for piercing squirrels and plastic fenders on contemporary automobiles.
If I was in the manufacturing biz, I'd market one just to dispel yet another intardnet horseshit myth. Your cheap ammo will inevitably disappear with the value of the dollar anyway.
The 5,45 round is comparable to the 5.56 penetrator and they are making AR pistols and the ammo is everywhere. I call bullshit. Besides, AP mouse calibers are good for piercing squirrels and plastic fenders on contemporary automobiles.
If I was in the manufacturing biz, I'd market one just to dispel yet another intardnet horseshit myth. Your cheap ammo will inevitably disappear with the value of the dollar anyway.
This makes sense.
Because all that Federal SS109 MUST be imported....
7/24/2011 10:12:16 PM
Actually, there's been a couple of threads right here on Arfcom that the hammer might come down on .223 someday too.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1205447_Stand_down_all_you_drama_queens_At_Elite_Ammo.html&page=1
It seems it's because these are actually brass bullets, copper and zinc, and AFAIK, this is still the uncorroborated bitching of one particular maker, but still...
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1205447_Stand_down_all_you_drama_queens_At_Elite_Ammo.html&page=1
It seems it's because these are actually brass bullets, copper and zinc, and AFAIK, this is still the uncorroborated bitching of one particular maker, but still...
7/29/2011 11:47:14 PM
It's my understanding that SS109 type 556 ammo either is not classified as AP or has a waiver. Now if M995 ammo were to become widespread, then that would be the end of 556 pistols.
7/30/2011 1:38:01 AM
Originally Posted By 545ak:
It's my understanding that SS109 type 556 ammo either is not classified as AP or has a waiver. Now if M995 ammo were to become widespread, then that would be the end of 556 pistols.
It's my understanding that SS109 type 556 ammo either is not classified as AP or has a waiver. Now if M995 ammo were to become widespread, then that would be the end of 556 pistols.
You got that backwards. It would be the end of the ammo.
Luckily, if you subtract the number of scam artists out there who are selling SS109, or God-knows-what as "M995", (hint, Tungsten is not magnetic) there's practically zero out there on the market.
Besides, even if you COULD get M995 legally (in terms of the chain of custody of the ammo, i.e. nobody stole it), I'd think you could just as cheaply set yourself up with something in .308/7.62 use Talon pulled .30-06 pulled AP projos, and shoot it even deader than 5.56AP would anyway.
7/30/2011 2:30:42 AM
Originally Posted By Balista:
http://www.thecaptainsmemos.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Stop.jpg
Originally Posted By HankZudd:
who makes a good one: thanks
who makes a good one: thanks
http://www.thecaptainsmemos.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Stop.jpg
7/30/2011 10:23:36 AM
Originally Posted By Surly:
The 5,45 round is comparable to the 5.56 penetrator and they are making AR pistols and the ammo is everywhere. I call bullshit. Besides, AP mouse calibers are good for piercing squirrels and plastic fenders on contemporary automobiles.
If I was in the manufacturing biz, I'd market one just to dispel yet another intardnet horseshit myth. Your cheap ammo will inevitably disappear with the value of the dollar anyway.
The 5,45 round is comparable to the 5.56 penetrator and they are making AR pistols and the ammo is everywhere. I call bullshit. Besides, AP mouse calibers are good for piercing squirrels and plastic fenders on contemporary automobiles.
If I was in the manufacturing biz, I'd market one just to dispel yet another intardnet horseshit myth. Your cheap ammo will inevitably disappear with the value of the dollar anyway.
5.56 is exempt from steel core AP rules, as is .30-06.
5.45x39 is NOT. Plus is is completely imported. 5.56 penetrator is produced domestically.
8/1/2011 1:54:25 PM
Completely unrelated.
How good are the ballistics of 5.45x39 out of a shorter barrel?
How good are the ballistics of 5.45x39 out of a shorter barrel?
8/4/2011 11:32:44 AM
Hmmm, if we make a 5.45 pistol, then maybe we can force the heretics back to the one true caliber.
Mwuahahaha!!
Mwuahahaha!!
8/8/2011 10:45:11 AM
Well my next pistol build will be a 5.45x39 AK pistol. As for the 'bans' they aren't really bans at all, it is just various interpretations the BATFE decides to make out of existing legislation. They are getting called to task about such things and I hope to see kits with barrels imported in the next few years. It is the imported stuff that the BATFE is able to affect because they keep US Customs on a tight leash. That goes for imported rifles, rifle parts and ammunition. Stuff made here in the US is exempt from those tactics simply because it doesn't have to go through the BATFE's puppet.
8/9/2011 11:40:52 PM
Originally Posted By uscombatdiver:
Well my next pistol build will be a 5.45x39 AK pistol. As for the 'bans' they aren't really bans at all, it is just various interpretations the BATFE decides to make out of existing legislation.
Well my next pistol build will be a 5.45x39 AK pistol. As for the 'bans' they aren't really bans at all, it is just various interpretations the BATFE decides to make out of existing legislation.
It's not a matter of "interpretation". It's a matter of reading the statute, which defines "armor piercing handgun ammunition".
Right now 5.45 does not fit the definition because there is no commercially available handgun which fires the cartridge. If that changed or if BATFE becomes aware that large numbers of 5.45 calber pistols have been built by non-licensees, they will apply the statute and importation (and sale by licensees) of steel core surplus will be prohibited.
8/10/2011 2:24:04 PM
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
It's not a matter of "interpretation". It's a matter of reading the statute, which defines "armor piercing handgun ammunition".
Right now 5.45 does not fit the definition because there is no commercially available handgun which fires the cartridge. If that changed or if BATFE becomes aware that large numbers of 5.45 calber pistols have been built by non-licensees, they will apply the statute and importation (and sale by licensees) of steel core surplus will be prohibited.
Originally Posted By uscombatdiver:
Well my next pistol build will be a 5.45x39 AK pistol. As for the 'bans' they aren't really bans at all, it is just various interpretations the BATFE decides to make out of existing legislation.
Well my next pistol build will be a 5.45x39 AK pistol. As for the 'bans' they aren't really bans at all, it is just various interpretations the BATFE decides to make out of existing legislation.
It's not a matter of "interpretation". It's a matter of reading the statute, which defines "armor piercing handgun ammunition".
Right now 5.45 does not fit the definition because there is no commercially available handgun which fires the cartridge. If that changed or if BATFE becomes aware that large numbers of 5.45 calber pistols have been built by non-licensees, they will apply the statute and importation (and sale by licensees) of steel core surplus will be prohibited.
That's the key. Unless a home-built or custom smith 5.45 pistol gets used in a high profile crime, it won't be a problem.
Century starts importing them, or Arsenal or someone big in the domestic AK market starts making them, then bye-bye N76 spam cans.
8/10/2011 10:04:31 PM
Originally Posted By AJ_Dual:
That's the key. Unless a home-built or custom smith 5.45 pistol gets used in a high profile crime, it won't be a problem.
Century starts importing them, or Arsenal or someone big in the domestic AK market starts making them, then bye-bye N76 spam cans.
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
It's not a matter of "interpretation". It's a matter of reading the statute, which defines "armor piercing handgun ammunition".
Right now 5.45 does not fit the definition because there is no commercially available handgun which fires the cartridge. If that changed or if BATFE becomes aware that large numbers of 5.45 calber pistols have been built by non-licensees, they will apply the statute and importation (and sale by licensees) of steel core surplus will be prohibited.
Originally Posted By uscombatdiver:
Well my next pistol build will be a 5.45x39 AK pistol. As for the 'bans' they aren't really bans at all, it is just various interpretations the BATFE decides to make out of existing legislation.
Well my next pistol build will be a 5.45x39 AK pistol. As for the 'bans' they aren't really bans at all, it is just various interpretations the BATFE decides to make out of existing legislation.
It's not a matter of "interpretation". It's a matter of reading the statute, which defines "armor piercing handgun ammunition".
Right now 5.45 does not fit the definition because there is no commercially available handgun which fires the cartridge. If that changed or if BATFE becomes aware that large numbers of 5.45 calber pistols have been built by non-licensees, they will apply the statute and importation (and sale by licensees) of steel core surplus will be prohibited.
That's the key. Unless a home-built or custom smith 5.45 pistol gets used in a high profile crime, it won't be a problem.
Century starts importing them, or Arsenal or someone big in the domestic AK market starts making them, then bye-bye N76 spam cans.
You missed the part in red.
If there are enough 5.45 pistols built by non-licensees, 5.45 will become a "handgun cartridge". There are ways other than use in a "high profile crime" for BATFE to become aware of such pistols.
As an example, it could monitor gun boards looking for people who discuss building such firearms.
