AR15.Com Archives
 Keyhole or not? Update 7/22
1158  [Member]
7/8/2009 9:27:50 PM
Ok, this is a CAI Tantal, but it is of the new batch that isn't supposed to keyhole. My wife did most of the shooting today, at 25 yards. A little later I finished out the mag trying to sight it in a 100 yards. This was all shot with the same ammo, russian surplus. Both my wife and I would shoot 5 and then take a look at the target. We did not shoot 5 quick, we would shoot, wait 20-30 sec and shoot the next.

The first images looks like keyhole city to me, right? The second isn't much better. I circled the 5 shots she put on that target, the rest are from the Enfield she was trying to sight in. She a small girl and her arms get tired quick, that's why the .303 holes are all over the place!

The third image is at 100 yards and shows no keyholes. I circled the 5 shots on the 100 yard target, the rest are from my PSL and M44.

I had more shots at 100 yards on other target, leftovers that were on either side of this target. I didn't bring them home, but there were no keyholes on those either, between 10 and 15 shots total.

My question is are these really keyholes? The targets are thin paper and the backing plywood is pretty shot up. My wife was wondering if the holes in the backboard are causing the paper to rip when the bullet hits. I was wondering if the paper is moving as the bullets are hitting the target, because the backboard is warped. I also noticed the backboards will move a little, because they are so shot up.

The plywood at 100 yards is also shot up, but it is night and day difference between 25 yards. 25 yards is so bad there are areas you can't even hang a target.

Anyway, here are the pics:

25 yards


25 yards part 2


100 yards



My wife suggested we go back tomorrow and try to figure out if it's the plywood/targets causing the problem or if it is a keyhole issue.

TIA
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nictra  [Team Member]
7/8/2009 10:25:14 PM
looks like it in the 1st pic. Here's to hoping it's not!
briansmithwins  [Team Member]
7/9/2009 12:02:50 AM
Just at a glance I'd say: 'Keyholing like a motherfucker.'

Get it fixed. BSW
1158  [Member]
7/9/2009 12:09:38 AM
Originally Posted By briansmithwins:
Just at a glance I'd say: 'Keyholing like a motherfucker.'

Get it fixed. BSW


That was my first thought. I figured at 100 yards it would be even worse. But every hole at 100 yards was a perfect circle. I really wish I knew what was going on.

I'm going back to the range tomorrow to see if I can figure this shit out.
rube79  [Member]
7/9/2009 4:41:02 PM
Originally Posted By briansmithwins:
Just at a glance I'd say: 'Keyholing like a motherfucker.'

Get it fixed. BSW


This

The reason you didnt have keyholes on the 3rd / 100 yard target is because the barrel was cooler. The warmer the barrel gets = Keyholes.

Perfect example of a CAI Tantal, sorry
1158  [Member]
7/9/2009 6:19:38 PM
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By briansmithwins:
Just at a glance I'd say: 'Keyholing like a motherfucker.'

Get it fixed. BSW


This

The reason you didnt have keyholes on the 3rd / 100 yard target is because the barrel was cooler. The warmer the barrel gets = Keyholes.

Perfect example of a CAI Tantal, sorry



Well I went to the range today and no keyholes at 50/100 but still doing it at 25. The barrel cooling theory doesn't hold water. I burned myself on the barrel changing out a mag going from 25 to 50. After 10 shots at 50, 6 hit the target (no keyholes) I went to 100. Out of the remaining 20 I got 12 on the target. Barrel was smoking and there were no keyholes (I'll post a pick tonight of 100 yards). The rest were off the paper. My aim sucks.
Bigger_Hammer  [Team Member]
7/9/2009 6:23:20 PM
Shoot some 70 grain Wolf in it and see what happens.

I'd guess that will Key Hole like Crazy and be obvious.

Any 5.45 AK should be able to fire ANY 5.45 ammo without keyholing.

Century is trying to make all kinds of excuses saying that their guns keyhole with "certain" ammo.

Go face the Monster, shoot some 70 grain Wolf and see what your targets look like!

If you gun has Keyhole-itus, that will bring it out and make it clear.

BIGGER_HAMMER
briansmithwins  [Team Member]
7/9/2009 6:39:15 PM
Originally Posted By 1158:
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By briansmithwins:
Just at a glance I'd say: 'Keyholing like a motherfucker.'

Get it fixed. BSW


This

The reason you didnt have keyholes on the 3rd / 100 yard target is because the barrel was cooler. The warmer the barrel gets = Keyholes.

Perfect example of a CAI Tantal, sorry



Well I went to the range today and no keyholes at 50/100 but still doing it at 25. The barrel cooling theory doesn't hold water. I burned myself on the barrel changing out a mag going from 25 to 50. After 10 shots at 50, 6 hit the target (no keyholes) I went to 100. Out of the remaining 20 I got 12 on the target. Barrel was smoking and there were no keyholes (I'll post a pick tonight of 100 yards). The rest were off the paper. My aim sucks.


You know, I almost suspect you're not seeing the keyholing bullets at longer range as they're missing the target altogether. BSW
Bigger_Hammer  [Team Member]
7/9/2009 6:47:27 PM
How sad that Century could take a WINNER like the Tantal, and just SH!T them up so badly that All Tantals are now looked down on.

Hey CENTURY....

the phrase YOU SUCK doesn't even begin to cover it!

I could NEVER own a Century after seeing how they have fncked up CETMEs & G-3s (ground the bolts instead of properly fitting oversized lock rollers - would have taken 15 minutes but why spend the time when you can have a minimum wage monkey use a freaking GRINDER to take metal off the bolt instead in just 15 seconds - even if it is all wrong)

Century = SUCKS!!

BIGGER_HAMMER
rube79  [Member]
7/9/2009 10:10:31 PM
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
How sad that Century could take a WINNER like the Tantal, and just SH!T them up so badly that All Tantals are now looked down on.

Hey CENTURY....

the phrase YOU SUCK doesn't even begin to cover it!

I could NEVER own a Century after seeing how they have fncked up CETMEs & G-3s (ground the bolts instead of properly fitting oversized lock rollers - would have taken 15 minutes but why spend the time when you can have a minimum wage monkey use a freaking GRINDER to take metal off the bolt instead in just 15 seconds - even if it is all wrong)

Century = SUCKS!!

BIGGER_HAMMER


Thats a Sticky


The hot barrel does hold water, just maybe not in this case. What ammunition are you shooting w/ right now? We know that the 1/9 twist in these newer CAIs dont like surplus.

My Aimpoint CompC3 just came in today from repairs. Mounted her on the Ultimak on my Interarms tantal and took a minute to zero her in. 25 yds my groups were under 1/2 inch and 50 yds were keeping around 1 inch for 5 shot groups. I used Bulgy surplus and shot prone on my magazine.

I hate that your going thru this and hope you figure it out

edit: spelling how/hope lol
MyGrassIsBlue  [Member]
7/9/2009 10:34:11 PM
Man, that sucks.

I just got back from the range with my CAI Tantal, Serial Y00**17

I put about 150 rounds through it and didn't had any keyholing issues with Wolf 70gr, Silver Bear 60gr, or Russian Surplus 53gr.

My firing pin retaining pin was a bit loose though after about 120 rounds.

Guess I got lucky....
1158  [Member]
7/9/2009 11:12:41 PM
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
Shoot some 70 grain Wolf in it and see what happens.

I'd guess that will Key Hole like Crazy and be obvious.

Any 5.45 AK should be able to fire ANY 5.45 ammo without keyholing.

Century is trying to make all kinds of excuses saying that their guns keyhole with "certain" ammo.

Go face the Monster, shoot some 70 grain Wolf and see what your targets look like!

If you gun has Keyhole-itus, that will bring it out and make it clear.

BIGGER_HAMMER


This was what I have been thinking. The only thing giving me pause with that solution is the numbers. The volume of keyholes I'm seeing at 25 yards would suggest I couldn't get more than 3 shots out of 20 to hit the target. I'm going to pick up a box of the wolf 70 and see what happens.

Here's my 100 from today.


Would the residue from shooting at 25 yards first make any difference? I went through 4 mags at 25 yards before moving to 50/100.

I really do appreciate everyone's input and advice.
1158  [Member]
7/9/2009 11:21:02 PM
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
How sad that Century could take a WINNER like the Tantal, and just SH!T them up so badly that All Tantals are now looked down on.

Hey CENTURY....

the phrase YOU SUCK doesn't even begin to cover it!

I could NEVER own a Century after seeing how they have fncked up CETMEs & G-3s (ground the bolts instead of properly fitting oversized lock rollers - would have taken 15 minutes but why spend the time when you can have a minimum wage monkey use a freaking GRINDER to take metal off the bolt instead in just 15 seconds - even if it is all wrong)

Century = SUCKS!!

BIGGER_HAMMER


Thats a Sticky


The hot barrel does hold water, just maybe not in this case. What ammunition are you shooting w/ right now? We know that the 1/9 twist in these newer CAIs dont like surplus.

My Aimpoint CompC3 just came in today from repairs. Mounted her on the Ultimak on my Interarms tantal and took a minute to zero her in. 25 yds my groups were under 1/2 inch and 50 yds were keeping around 1 inch for 5 shot groups. I used Bulgy surplus and shot prone on my magazine.

I hate that your going thru this and hope you figure it out

edit: spelling how/hope lol


Rube,

I was just speaking about in this case about the hot barrel. I thought it might be that which is why I made sure to heat it up today. Maybe it is the 1:9 twist and the surplus. I'm using the the 53 grain Russian. If it shoots the Wolf fine, I'd be happy. The wife likes the Tantal, so I could give it to her and buy myself another 74 to shoot all the surplus I've stocked up on.

Yesterday when my wife was shooting the Tantal she was getting groups between 1/2 inch and an inch at 25 yards. Both of us are new at target shooting. My biggest problem is keeping the gun steady from shot to shot. I move to much. I think I need to stay at 25 yards and work on my mechanics.

Much appreciated!

Edited to add: Just did the bullet test with 53 grain Russian surplus. The bullet stops about 2 mm from the casing...does not reach the sealant. I'm assuming since the bullet is still increasing in diameter beyond this point, the barrel is a 5.45 barrel. If the Wolf doesn't work, could it be the muzzle crown? I was reading about it, but still learning and I'm not sure what it should look like. I looked at my 47 and it seems like it has more angle to it, but the difference looks minimal.
rube79  [Member]
7/10/2009 8:34:12 AM
Sounds like she can shoot Especially, if the rifle is working against her.

Hell, after 1 magazine my rifle can be come a bit less accurate. Yesterday after 2 mags, my 1inch groups @ 50 jumped to 2inch groups. 2 quick bore snake pulls and i was back down. Same for 25 yards, 1/2 inch to 1 inch then back to 1/2.

Damn, i have questions on muzzle crown myself. I hope someone w/ knowledge on that topic chimes in I know basic stuff, but im still learning as well.

gl and plz report back
Rube
POLYTHENEPAM  [Member]
7/10/2009 11:15:05 AM
Originally Posted By 1158:
My question is are these really keyholes? The targets are thin paper and the backing plywood is pretty shot up. My wife was wondering if the holes in the backboard are causing the paper to rip when the bullet hits. I was wondering if the paper is moving as the bullets are hitting the target, because the backboard is warped. I also noticed the backboards will move a little, because they are so shot up.



Put the target on some cardboard and mount the cardboard to the 25 yard target stand.
If the "keyholes" disappear, the cause is the target stand. If not ...

1158  [Member]
7/10/2009 8:04:29 PM
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By 1158:
My question is are these really keyholes? The targets are thin paper and the backing plywood is pretty shot up. My wife was wondering if the holes in the backboard are causing the paper to rip when the bullet hits. I was wondering if the paper is moving as the bullets are hitting the target, because the backboard is warped. I also noticed the backboards will move a little, because they are so shot up.



Put the target on some cardboard and mount the cardboard to the 25 yard target stand.
If the "keyholes" disappear, the cause is the target stand. If not ...



I might go one step beyond that and make a large cardboard target and prop it up against the backing. I noticed yesterday the plywood and the frames are so shot up they actually lean forward.

Unfortunately I won't get to the range until the end of next week. I'm working through Thu night.
1158  [Member]
7/10/2009 8:17:40 PM
Originally Posted By rube79:
Sounds like she can shoot Especially, if the rifle is working against her.

Hell, after 1 magazine my rifle can be come a bit less accurate. Yesterday after 2 mags, my 1inch groups @ 50 jumped to 2inch groups. 2 quick bore snake pulls and i was back down. Same for 25 yards, 1/2 inch to 1 inch then back to 1/2.

Damn, i have questions on muzzle crown myself. I hope someone w/ knowledge on that topic chimes in I know basic stuff, but im still learning as well.

gl and plz report back
Rube


She can shoot. She was working with her Enfield at 50 yards yesterday. She's still getting a feel for the gun but is getting good groups.

I took my bore snake with me yesterday but never ran it through. I wonder how much that would help at 100 yards I went through 5 mags total yesterday with the last at 50 and 100. If you are seeing a double in groups at 50 after 2 I wonder how much mine opened up.

I'm going to have to find some books to read and start learning about gunsmithing.

I'll post more once I get back to the range...might be a week though.
1158  [Member]
7/22/2009 3:23:34 PM
Finally got back to the range with it today. Using Wolf MC 70 grain (4 mags) and then one mag of the surplus.

Here is the target with 2 mags of Wolf at 25 yards:



Not one keyhole...

Here was my last 10 rounds of the Wolf MC fired as quick as possible but still trying to be accurate, also at 25 yards.


Again, 10 round holes...

Here is a mag of the surplus:


There are a few places where 2 bullets struck close...but there also appears to be a few keyholes.


I ran the bore snake through after the first 2 mags and again after the second 2. It did seem to help accuracy. I also shot a mags worth at 100 yards. Most of them were on the target but low. I was getting close to getting the gun sighted in but ran out of the Wolf MC. So it appears the gun does not keyhole with heavier bullets. I want to try some of the wolf black box, or 60 grain. I wonder if it is the bullet weight or if it has to do with bullet length or weight distribution.
rube79  [Member]
7/22/2009 10:53:52 PM
Damn, sorry to hear about the surplus. Good news is that she works well w/ the 70gr.

My bulgy krink loves surplus and has a 1/8 twist, but only an 8.25inch barrel. I'm going to research this a bit more and try to understand what the hell is going oin.

Tantal pix 100 and 200 yards

100 yards, using bulgy surplus shooting prone w/ the mags as a mono pole. (25yrd zero)



200 yards,




Found out that a 25 yrd zero is a NO-GO for my Tantal Will zero to 50 soon

1158  [Member]
7/23/2009 12:11:41 AM
Originally Posted By rube79:
Damn, sorry to hear about the surplus. Good news is that she works well w/ the 70gr.

My bulgy krink loves surplus and has a 1/8 twist, but only an 8.25inch barrel. I'm going to research this a bit more and try to understand what the hell is going oin.




I'm actually happy about the surplus not working. I have 10K rounds of it. Solution...buy another 74! Even my wife thinks that's a good idea...firing it through the Tantal would be a waste, so she says!

Now I need to figure out what 74 do I want to get? A bulgy krink would be sweet!


I have 2 ideas. Either these bullets are very touchy when it comes to twist rate and the 1:9 twist is just over the threshold or the cavity at the end of the bullet is throwing the weight of the bullet off slightly. I know others have CIA tantals that fire surplus no problem, but I wonder if the threshold for the twist rate is so small that some have issues and some don't.

I am going to try the 60 grain wolf to see if that keyholes. I may even try some 60 grain silver bear as well. It would be nice to figure this out, but at least this thing will shoot something properly.

I'd love to shoot some groups like that. I think I just need to keep practicing. I find that I am not using the exact same aim point each shot. I started getting better with it today, but I still need to work on it more. What sucks is I am out of the 5.45 wolf. The good news is I have tons of 7.62 and I'm going to the range tomorrow to see if I can work on my grouping. If I can get it right with the 47 I'm sure I can get the 74 to work.
rube79  [Member]
7/23/2009 12:40:36 AM
NO sell it to meeee j/k

I love my Tantal, but my krink is the shit.

The other day zero'ed it at 25 yards, after installing my QD Larue mount on the T-1. I was using bulgy surplus and shooting bench, using the mag as a mono pod lol.

100 yards



200 yards




Love my 5.45s

I still want to learn more on the twist rate effect.
1158  [Member]
7/23/2009 1:01:03 AM
After the keyhole fest last time at the range I started doing research about twist rate. There is an equation for figuring out what twist rate is optimum for a given bullet. I calculated it for the 1:9 rate with both the 53 and 70 grain bullets, but cannot remember what I came up with. I think both should work with a 1:9 rate, but I know bullet length does come into play and the wolf bullets are slightly longer than the surplus.
1158  [Member]
7/23/2009 1:23:14 AM
There's a bulgy krink on gunbroker right now...its sitting at 1350 with no bids...
Kurt_D  [Member]
8/3/2009 3:35:01 PM
Originally Posted By briansmithwins:
Originally Posted By 1158:
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By briansmithwins:
Just at a glance I'd say: 'Keyholing like a motherfucker.'

Get it fixed. BSW


This

The reason you didnt have keyholes on the 3rd / 100 yard target is because the barrel was cooler. The warmer the barrel gets = Keyholes.

Perfect example of a CAI Tantal, sorry



Well I went to the range today and no keyholes at 50/100 but still doing it at 25. The barrel cooling theory doesn't hold water. I burned myself on the barrel changing out a mag going from 25 to 50. After 10 shots at 50, 6 hit the target (no keyholes) I went to 100. Out of the remaining 20 I got 12 on the target. Barrel was smoking and there were no keyholes (I'll post a pick tonight of 100 yards). The rest were off the paper. My aim sucks.


You know, I almost suspect you're not seeing the keyholing bullets at longer range as they're missing the target altogether. BSW


This +1

Kurt_D  [Member]
8/3/2009 3:54:47 PM
Yours is the exact opposite of what most people have issues with, which is usually surplus shoots fine and commerical 70gr keyholes.

Russian and Bulgarian `74s come with ~1:7.5 twist rate and for the record neither have had issues with any 5.45 ammo. I have pulled bullets from both Wolf 70gr and Bulgy 52gr surplus and the bullet lenght is the same, it's simply lead filled vs steel core.

For the record my CAI Tantal's keyholing got better (less) as the barrel got dirtier and hotter. Accuracy still sucked no matter what compared to my SAR-2, Bugly 74s and now Saiga. I still say many Tantals have the wrong size/inconsistant bore and that's causing the issues more than the twist rate.
1158  [Member]
8/3/2009 5:48:23 PM
Originally Posted By Kurt_D:
Yours is the exact opposite of what most people have issues with, which is usually surplus shoots fine and commerical 70gr keyholes.

Russian and Bulgarian `74s come with ~1:7.5 twist rate and for the record neither have had issues with any 5.45 ammo. I have pulled bullets from both Wolf 70gr and Bulgy 52gr surplus and the bullet lenght is the same, it's simply lead filled vs steel core.

For the record my CAI Tantal's keyholing got better (less) as the barrel got dirtier and hotter. Accuracy still sucked no matter what compared to my SAR-2, Bugly 74s and now Saiga. I still say many Tantals have the wrong size/inconsistant bore and that's causing the issues more than the twist rate.


Bullet stability is affected by more than twist rate. I haven't gotten to try the lighter grain Wolf/Silver Bear but I wonder if the bullet density isn't having some effect here. Pretty sure the bore size on my tantal is correct. I realize the bullet test is not the best or preferred way of doing a check, but it passes that test easily. I also took a bullet out of a casing and tried to feed it through from the chamber...same result. If there are inconsistencies in the barrel then the barrel maker is at fault, which would technically let Century off the hook in that case (though this is still def their fuck up).

My shooting skills aside, with the heavier wolf the gun is pretty accurate, it just shoots low. I would guess because the velocity is lower due to heavier bullets. I'm getting a Bulgy 74 next week, so I can compare the accuracy of the 2 in the near future.

I didn't try shooting it without the brake on, but I don't see why that would affect the surplus and not the wolf. Is it at all possible it is a bad batch of ammo? All of the surplus has been from the same can. I don't see how it could be the ammo, but I agree that keyholes with the surplus but not the heavy grain is very odd.

In fact everything I have read/calculated suggests that for 5.45 a twist rate in the 8 to 9 range is optimal. I think the reason the military rifles are lower might have to do with the weighting and the composition of the bullet. Not sure though, I'm still trying to learn a lot about twist rate. Here is the twist rate calculator I used calculator...one thing I was unsure of was the SG of the bullets. I left it at default 10.9...for the wolf, assuming they are not steel but lead. Since the surplus is steel core, I used a SG of 8 (bullet is not all steel but it could probably even be a little higher). SG of 8 gives a twist rate of 1:8. I really would like to know what is going on...but I'm happy that it at least will shoot the 70 grain wolf well. I'm pretty sure is will shoot the 60 grain wolf & silver bear also.
Roadie  [Member]
8/3/2009 6:11:33 PM
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
How sad that Century could take a WINNER like the Tantal, and just SH!T them up so badly that All Tantals are now looked down on.

Hey CENTURY....

the phrase YOU SUCK doesn't even begin to cover it!

I could NEVER own a Century after seeing how they have fncked up CETMEs & G-3s (ground the bolts instead of properly fitting oversized lock rollers - would have taken 15 minutes but why spend the time when you can have a minimum wage monkey use a freaking GRINDER to take metal off the bolt instead in just 15 seconds - even if it is all wrong)

Century = SUCKS!!

BIGGER_HAMMER


Thats a Sticky


The hot barrel does hold water, just maybe not in this case. What ammunition are you shooting w/ right now? We know that the 1/9 twist in these newer CAIs dont like surplus.

My Aimpoint CompC3 just came in today from repairs. Mounted her on the Ultimak on my Interarms tantal and took a minute to zero her in. 25 yds my groups were under 1/2 inch and 50 yds were keeping around 1 inch for 5 shot groups. I used Bulgy surplus and shot prone on my magazine.

I hate that your going thru this and hope you figure it out

edit: spelling how/hope lol



Rube, I have to strongly disagree about the CAI and surplus, all I shoot in my CAI tantal is various weights of the surplus ammo and have yet to have a keyhole, at any distance hot or cold. I am thinking that the tantal 1158 has is not one of the newer ones. As for the twist, the 1-9 works very well with all the surplus I have, regardless of the weight, I have fired 53gr, 56gr 7N6, and hot shot 68gr and no problems at all. I just can't say anything bad about the tantal I have from century, it's very very good and performs flawlessly and as well is quite accurate. And lastly, it really doesn't matter if it keyholes or not, in the unlikely even that a keyholeing tantal was needed in a defensive situation, that tumbling bullet would do 2 or 3 times the damage to a human or animal target, and it also unlikely that that rifle would be used in engagements past 100 yards anyway.
1158  [Member]
8/3/2009 6:30:04 PM
Originally Posted By Roadie:
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
How sad that Century could take a WINNER like the Tantal, and just SH!T them up so badly that All Tantals are now looked down on.

Hey CENTURY....

the phrase YOU SUCK doesn't even begin to cover it!

I could NEVER own a Century after seeing how they have fncked up CETMEs & G-3s (ground the bolts instead of properly fitting oversized lock rollers - would have taken 15 minutes but why spend the time when you can have a minimum wage monkey use a freaking GRINDER to take metal off the bolt instead in just 15 seconds - even if it is all wrong)

Century = SUCKS!!

BIGGER_HAMMER


Thats a Sticky


The hot barrel does hold water, just maybe not in this case. What ammunition are you shooting w/ right now? We know that the 1/9 twist in these newer CAIs dont like surplus.

My Aimpoint CompC3 just came in today from repairs. Mounted her on the Ultimak on my Interarms tantal and took a minute to zero her in. 25 yds my groups were under 1/2 inch and 50 yds were keeping around 1 inch for 5 shot groups. I used Bulgy surplus and shot prone on my magazine.

I hate that your going thru this and hope you figure it out

edit: spelling how/hope lol



Rube, I have to strongly disagree about the CAI and surplus, all I shoot in my CAI tantal is various weights of the surplus ammo and have yet to have a keyhole, at any distance hot or cold. I am thinking that the tantal 1158 has is not one of the newer ones. As for the twist, the 1-9 works very well with all the surplus I have, regardless of the weight, I have fired 53gr, 56gr 7N6, and hot shot 68gr and no problems at all. I just can't say anything bad about the tantal I have from century, it's very very good and performs flawlessly and as well is quite accurate. And lastly, it really doesn't matter if it keyholes or not, in the unlikely even that a keyholeing tantal was needed in a defensive situation, that tumbling bullet would do 2 or 3 times the damage to a human or animal target, and it also unlikely that that rifle would be used in engagements past 100 yards anyway.


It is a new one. Has the 1:9 twist. I still have the plastic tag verifying such and it is of the new generation serial numbers.
rube79  [Member]
8/3/2009 9:49:44 PM
Originally Posted By Roadie:
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
How sad that Century could take a WINNER like the Tantal, and just SH!T them up so badly that All Tantals are now looked down on.

Hey CENTURY....

the phrase YOU SUCK doesn't even begin to cover it!

I could NEVER own a Century after seeing how they have fncked up CETMEs & G-3s (ground the bolts instead of properly fitting oversized lock rollers - would have taken 15 minutes but why spend the time when you can have a minimum wage monkey use a freaking GRINDER to take metal off the bolt instead in just 15 seconds - even if it is all wrong)

Century = SUCKS!!

BIGGER_HAMMER


Thats a Sticky


The hot barrel does hold water, just maybe not in this case. What ammunition are you shooting w/ right now? We know that the 1/9 twist in these newer CAIs dont like surplus.

My Aimpoint CompC3 just came in today from repairs. Mounted her on the Ultimak on my Interarms tantal and took a minute to zero her in. 25 yds my groups were under 1/2 inch and 50 yds were keeping around 1 inch for 5 shot groups. I used Bulgy surplus and shot prone on my magazine.

I hate that your going thru this and hope you figure it out

edit: spelling how/hope lol



Rube, I have to strongly disagree about the CAI and surplus, all I shoot in my CAI tantal is various weights of the surplus ammo and have yet to have a keyhole, at any distance hot or cold. I am thinking that the tantal 1158 has is not one of the newer ones. As for the twist, the 1-9 works very well with all the surplus I have, regardless of the weight, I have fired 53gr, 56gr 7N6, and hot shot 68gr and no problems at all. I just can't say anything bad about the tantal I have from century, it's very very good and performs flawlessly and as well is quite accurate. And lastly, it really doesn't matter if it keyholes or not, in the unlikely even that a keyholeing tantal was needed in a defensive situation, that tumbling bullet would do 2 or 3 times the damage to a human or animal target, and it also unlikely that that rifle would be used in engagements past 100 yards anyway.


You sir have that exception, that one in a dozen I'm going by the numbers, what people have posted and my experience. There are few of you and lots of Can't say that i wouldnt brag about my CAI if i were you

A tumbling bullet wont do very much damage if it tumbles before impact. Though, it will do enough damage in most defensive situations. Last year, i killed a doe w/ one shot using surplus. Shot her from a tree 35 yards away and she ran dead 30 yards. Keyholed first lung, cut top of heart off and totally destroyed the 2nd lung; while leaving an exit wound measuring 1 1/2 inches in diameter. I love the 5.45

I just dont want people getting Hosed by CAI
1158  [Member]
8/4/2009 7:46:16 AM
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By Roadie:
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
How sad that Century could take a WINNER like the Tantal, and just SH!T them up so badly that All Tantals are now looked down on.

Hey CENTURY....

the phrase YOU SUCK doesn't even begin to cover it!

I could NEVER own a Century after seeing how they have fncked up CETMEs & G-3s (ground the bolts instead of properly fitting oversized lock rollers - would have taken 15 minutes but why spend the time when you can have a minimum wage monkey use a freaking GRINDER to take metal off the bolt instead in just 15 seconds - even if it is all wrong)

Century = SUCKS!!

BIGGER_HAMMER


Thats a Sticky


The hot barrel does hold water, just maybe not in this case. What ammunition are you shooting w/ right now? We know that the 1/9 twist in these newer CAIs dont like surplus.

My Aimpoint CompC3 just came in today from repairs. Mounted her on the Ultimak on my Interarms tantal and took a minute to zero her in. 25 yds my groups were under 1/2 inch and 50 yds were keeping around 1 inch for 5 shot groups. I used Bulgy surplus and shot prone on my magazine.

I hate that your going thru this and hope you figure it out

edit: spelling how/hope lol



Rube, I have to strongly disagree about the CAI and surplus, all I shoot in my CAI tantal is various weights of the surplus ammo and have yet to have a keyhole, at any distance hot or cold. I am thinking that the tantal 1158 has is not one of the newer ones. As for the twist, the 1-9 works very well with all the surplus I have, regardless of the weight, I have fired 53gr, 56gr 7N6, and hot shot 68gr and no problems at all. I just can't say anything bad about the tantal I have from century, it's very very good and performs flawlessly and as well is quite accurate. And lastly, it really doesn't matter if it keyholes or not, in the unlikely even that a keyholeing tantal was needed in a defensive situation, that tumbling bullet would do 2 or 3 times the damage to a human or animal target, and it also unlikely that that rifle would be used in engagements past 100 yards anyway.


You sir have that exception, that one in a dozen I'm going by the numbers, what people have posted and my experience. There are few of you and lots of Can't say that i wouldnt brag about my CAI if i were you

A tumbling bullet wont do very much damage if it tumbles before impact. Though, it will do enough damage in most defensive situations. Last year, i killed a doe w/ one shot using surplus. Shot her from a tree 35 yards away and she ran dead 30 yards. Keyholed first lung, cut top of heart off and totally destroyed the 2nd lung; while leaving an exit wound measuring 1 1/2 inches in diameter. I love the 5.45

I just dont want people getting Hosed by CAI


Agreed 100%

I'm thankful that at least the gun shoots something well. I will not buy anymore from CAI. I knew better, but I really wanted a Tantal and couldn't find any non CAI Tantals. I figured with the new once getting good reviews it would be ok. Oh well, live and learn. I'll not buy anymore stuff from CAI. On the bright side, now I have to buy a Bulgy 74 to shoot all that surplus! (I'd really like a RPK74 but that's probably not gonna happen)

rube79  [Member]
8/4/2009 12:07:05 PM
I'm very curious about the new US 5.45 coming out. What grain and the differences in the bullets. Twist rate seems like a totally different animal w/ the 5.45

off he subject, but im going to re-crown my Tantal pretty soon Hoping for a little more accuracy!!! More accuracy = more combat accuracy (theoretically)
1158  [Member]
8/4/2009 1:15:27 PM
Originally Posted By rube79:
I'm very curious about the new US 5.45 coming out. What grain and the differences in the bullets. Twist rate seems like a totally different animal w/ the 5.45

off he subject, but im going to re-crown my Tantal pretty soon Hoping for a little more accuracy!!! More accuracy = more combat accuracy (theoretically)


Rube,

When you re-crown it you need to let me know how it goes. I'm tempted to try it myself. I'll let you be a guinea pig. The crown on mine looks a little rough, so I'm sure it would help.

It seems to me the twist rate isn't so much affected by bullet weight but more by what the bullet is made of. If the new US stuff is lead, I bet mine will shoot it good. I'm itching to try some of the 60 grain Wolf or SB in mine. Just haven't gotten a chance yet.
Roadie  [Member]
8/4/2009 1:32:47 PM
Well, maybe I am just lucky, it's a bummer that others have not had the luck with CAI tantals I have, or with CAI in general. I got a Mosin Nagant 91/30 sniper form them on sale a few months back...was listed in VG condition and when I got it, it was brand new. The wood had not one ding, scratch or mark of any kind on it and the bore was like glass, not even firing residue on the bolt. I knew it was not an original sniper but a repo, but still, it was new, as was the Russian scope it came with, and it's a tack driver I tell ya. So, me and CAI hae no beefs, could not be happier with them. There must be someone else with a CAI tantal that shoots well.
1158  [Member]
8/4/2009 2:21:03 PM
Originally Posted By Roadie:
Well, maybe I am just lucky, it's a bummer that others have not had the luck with CAI tantals I have, or with CAI in general. I got a Mosin Nagant 91/30 sniper form them on sale a few months back...was listed in VG condition and when I got it, it was brand new. The wood had not one ding, scratch or mark of any kind on it and the bore was like glass, not even firing residue on the bolt. I knew it was not an original sniper but a repo, but still, it was new, as was the Russian scope it came with, and it's a tack driver I tell ya. So, me and CAI hae no beefs, could not be happier with them. There must be someone else with a CAI tantal that shoots well.


I felt that way until I got the Tantal. My brother sold me his AK (CAI WASR) which shoots awesome and is well put together. That and my PSL, also in great shape, were my only 2 experiences with CAI. I'd read some of the stories, but figured my luck would continue, that and the new Tantals were fixed. Guess my luck ran out. I'm fine with it shooting the Wolf, and if it shoots the lighter stuff all the better. My wife really likes shooting it, so I'll let her have it and get me another 74. I won't knock anyone who buys from CAI, but I more than likely will never buy anything of theirs again.
Enscribe1  [Member]
8/5/2009 12:12:01 AM
My Century Tantal serial# 034**. I'll add more groups when I get them. I can't find the file on my computer right now.



rube79  [Member]
8/5/2009 8:36:15 AM
Originally Posted By Enscribe1:
My Century Tantal serial# 034**. I'll add more groups when I get them. I can't find the file on my computer right now.

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs200.snc1/6776_101653696513993_100000080890199_46440_6206507_n.jpg

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs200.snc1/6776_101653699847326_100000080890199_46441_3186716_n.jpg


Thx for the groups! How well did the wolf do @ 100 yards?

1 inch low @ 25 yards gave me a 50 yard zero w/ surplus.
Enscribe1  [Member]
8/5/2009 6:39:59 PM
I was only shooting 7n6 that day. I zeroed my sights with it so I haven't been shooting the Wolf, and I have a couple thousand rounds of the russian. I was shooting clays at 100yds. 1 shot a peice. I love this rilfe. I have to set the rear sight on 2 for 100 but I think that's just my aiming style. zeroed the rifle at "S" for 50 yds. Going to be out of town for the next week but I found a new spot to shoot at so I will be posting many more groups soon.

How about someone else? I'm sure there's more than two people out there with a decent century tantal. I thnk the biggest problem is that most people don't shoot paper, they just plink at sh*t.
docmcb  [Team Member]
8/5/2009 10:44:05 PM
I just got my Century Tantal and should get out on the range to see if I win or loose in the "keyhole lottery" next week, and I'll take pics.

I don't understand your serial number though, mine is built on a Nodak Spud receiver and the serial number is Y000***, not the same format as yours. I called Century and talked to someone there who told me based on my serial number that mine was mfg in April 2009 and that I should definitely have the new improved barrel.

I noticed on their web site that they have a part number RI1436 and RI1436B, but the tag on my trigger guard says part number RI1576x. They said there have not been any returns on the newer versions. Their web site also shows an RI1594 model with an 8 to 1 twist and 4 groove barrel, weird.

I did take the flash hider off and try to push a pulled 7N6 bullet in the bore and it didn't want to go very far. I tapped it with a mallet, and then had to punch it out with a cleaning rod and the rifleing bit into the bullet pretty good (don't have a micrometer caliper) and shows 6 lands and grooves.

My fingers are crossed.


Originally Posted By Enscribe1:
My Century Tantal serial# 034**. I'll add more groups when I get them. I can't find the file on my computer right now.

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs200.snc1/6776_101653696513993_100000080890199_46440_6206507_n.jpg

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs200.snc1/6776_101653699847326_100000080890199_46441_3186716_n.jpg


1158  [Member]
8/5/2009 11:19:16 PM
Originally Posted By docmcb:
I just got my Century Tantal and should get out on the range to see if I win or loose in the "keyhole lottery" next week, and I'll take pics.

I don't understand your serial number though, mine is built on a Nodak Spud receiver and the serial number is Y000***, not the same format as yours. I called Century and talked to someone there who told me based on my serial number that mine was mfg in April 2009 and that I should definitely have the new improved barrel.

I noticed on their web site that they have a part number RI1436 and RI1436B, but the tag on my trigger guard says part number RI1576x. They said there have not been any returns on the newer versions. Their web site also shows an RI1594 model with an 8 to 1 twist and 4 groove barrel, weird.

I did take the flash hider off and try to push a pulled 7N6 bullet in the bore and it didn't want to go very far. I tapped it with a mallet, and then had to punch it out with a cleaning rod and the rifleing bit into the bullet pretty good (don't have a micrometer caliper) and shows 6 lands and grooves.

My fingers are crossed.



Mine passed the bullet test, has 6 grooves and lands, and is of the new variety. It was purchased in late April and is built on a ND receiver part number RI1576-X with a 1:9 twist. Looks like it was built in Feb, going by the white tag.

It's just weird that it fires the heavy wolf fine but not the surplus. I've ordered some 60 grain Wolf and SB to see if one, both, or neither of them keyhole. I'll report back once I find out.


MyGrassIsBlue  [Member]
8/6/2009 3:18:31 PM
I thought I might post this, seeing as how some are curious how 60gr wolf shoots, and figured test targets for tantals are appreciated.

Someone gave me a box of Wolf 60gr HP, so I thought I'd take my CIA tantal *RI1576x* out this past weekend to see how she did.

at about 60 yards, prone, with bipod.


With the rest of the magazine, I took a few shots out to about 150yds.
Spraypainted a piece of T111 with a sillhouette and drove out it out in the middle of the field and threw it against a haybail..



Again, 150 yds, prone with bipod. Open sights, with the rear moved up from 4, to 5.


Rest of the magazine was fired by the ol' lady, who's not used to shooting, and therefor, none of her 6 shots made it to the intended target.
Don't worry though, she's learning. She did enjoy firing the rifle at least, and wants to get better.
1158  [Member]
8/6/2009 3:43:47 PM
Originally Posted By MyGrassIsBlue:
I thought I might post this, seeing as how some are curious how 60gr wolf shoots, and figured test targets for tantals are appreciated.

Someone gave me a box of Wolf 60gr HP, so I thought I'd take my CIA tantal *RI1576x* out this past weekend to see how she did.

at about 60 yards, prone, with bipod.




Have you shot surplus with it? I have a feeling 60 grain Wolf/SB will shoot fine in mine. It's just a theory, but I don't think the grain has as much to do with my problem. I think it has to do with bullet construction, but I could be wrong. Hopefully I'll find out next week. I ordered some 60 grain wolf and want to see how that shoots.
MyGrassIsBlue  [Member]
8/6/2009 7:44:09 PM
Originally Posted By 1158:
Have you shot surplus with it? I have a feeling 60 grain Wolf/SB will shoot fine in mine. It's just a theory, but I don't think the grain has as much to do with my problem. I think it has to do with bullet construction, but I could be wrong. Hopefully I'll find out next week. I ordered some 60 grain wolf and want to see how that shoots.


Yes. It loves 53gr surplus.
It also likes SB and even shot the Wolf 70gr MC fine.
1158  [Member]
8/6/2009 8:18:53 PM
Originally Posted By MyGrassIsBlue:
Originally Posted By 1158:
Have you shot surplus with it? I have a feeling 60 grain Wolf/SB will shoot fine in mine. It's just a theory, but I don't think the grain has as much to do with my problem. I think it has to do with bullet construction, but I could be wrong. Hopefully I'll find out next week. I ordered some 60 grain wolf and want to see how that shoots.


Yes. It loves 53gr surplus.
It also likes SB and even shot the Wolf 70gr MC fine.


I wish I knew why mine doesn't shoot the surplus. Next time I go to the range I'm going to try shooting it without the brake on. I don't see why it would make a difference, but might as well try.
XTC  [Member]
8/7/2009 5:01:11 PM
I went ahead and ordered a Century Tantal as I can return it if I have a problem. I just got it today so have not fired it, but I thought some might be interested in info on the barrel it came with. The tag says 1:8 twist/ 4 grove. Date on the tag 6/26/09.

Is that good or bad?

1158  [Member]
8/7/2009 6:21:43 PM
Originally Posted By XTC:
I went ahead and ordered a Century Tantal as I can return it if I have a problem. I just got it today so have not fired it, but I thought some might be interested in info on the barrel it came with. The tag says 1:8 twist/ 4 grove. Date on the tag 6/26/09.

Is that good or bad?



Honestly, not trying to be a dick...but who knows? Seriously. I was told my 1:9 would be fine, and others have 1:9 that are fine. Only way to find out is shoot it. Try any 5.45 you can get your hands on.

I guess the questions is, do you feel lucky?

Good luck!
docmcb  [Team Member]
8/7/2009 6:49:56 PM
I am very curious about that variation. I noted earlier that the Century Intl. web site shows models with more than one barrel spec. You must have got the model RI1594, whereas the RI1576 is the 1:9 6 groove version currently being sold. The web site shows an old part number RI1436 which I suspect is the problematic barrel version.

I plan to shoot my RI1576 next week.

Originally Posted By XTC:
I went ahead and ordered a Century Tantal as I can return it if I have a problem. I just got it today so have not fired it, but I thought some might be interested in info on the barrel it came with. The tag says 1:8 twist/ 4 grove. Date on the tag 6/26/09.

Is that good or bad?



XTC  [Member]
8/7/2009 8:19:16 PM
Oh I'm sure its a crapshoot! . I've never seen so much info all over the place without any real conclusions you can come to. I did note that 1:8 twist with 4 groove rifling is what AK-74s were designed to use. At least that is what I read a few places. Wikipedia couldn't be wrong could it?. lol. Normally I wouldn't buy a Century made gun, but $500 is about the limit I want to spend on an AK and the Tantal seems otherwise to be a pretty well made rifle. The low recoil and cheap ammo are a big draw, but I don't have to have one. If it keyholes it goes back.

XTC  [Member]
8/7/2009 8:44:18 PM
Yep, RI1594-x was on the tag.
Enscribe1  [Member]
8/11/2009 8:54:20 PM
Originally Posted By docmcb:
I don't understand your serial number though, mine is built on a Nodak Spud receiver and the serial number is Y000***, not the same format as yours.
[quote]

Originally Posted By Enscribe1:
My Century Tantal serial# 034**.


docmcb  [Team Member]
8/11/2009 11:02:22 PM
Thanks for posting the pic. It looks like your receiver is from a different mfgr. than mine. Mine says "NODAK SPUD" instead of DC on yours. Your serial number starts with "TTL" which is a totally different format than mine, which just starts with "Y".

Originally Posted By Enscribe1:
Originally Posted By docmcb:
I don't understand your serial number though, mine is built on a Nodak Spud receiver and the serial number is Y000***, not the same format as yours.
[quote]

Originally Posted By Enscribe1:
My Century Tantal serial# 034**.


http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs180.snc1/6776_101867809825915_100000080890199_53091_5029210_n.jpg


Canoeguy  [Member]
8/19/2009 12:17:37 PM
Mine is a #1576 and I have used 60gr wolf with stellar results.

I am glad I beat the odds because I love this little rifle. Though it was cheap and a Century, it is one of my favorites.
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