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Make Your SKS as Good as an AK
4/5/2010 7:40:08 AM
In terms of overall firepower and magazine swapping - It can be done!
No, I didn't convert an SKS to take AK mags, but I did make it just as efficient.
I have been tinkering with some ideas that have been coming to fruition from many members at the SKS Boards. Three of these ideas are now in play on one of my SKS's and it allows me to empty three full magazines with only one bolt charging motion, and swapping mags in the shouldered position.
The three ideas were cutting the duckbills off the detachable mags, taking the drop-free bolt modification one step furthur, and employing an extended mag release that works. I was fortunate to be chosen to test the prototype of the mag release on a gun that I had already done the mag and bolt mods. I took it out to the range yesterday morning.
My report to the SKS Boards, as follows:
Live fire testing with the Scythian SKS Extended Mag Release proved to be the tactical advantage design for which it was intended. Detachable magazines released out and locked back in with the firearm in the shouldered position. There is an instant access to the release handle without searching, looking, feeling around or missing the intended function. It is "right there" in the "can't miss" location and requires no extra effort, thought or concentration.
No, I didn't convert an SKS to take AK mags, but I did make it just as efficient.
I have been tinkering with some ideas that have been coming to fruition from many members at the SKS Boards. Three of these ideas are now in play on one of my SKS's and it allows me to empty three full magazines with only one bolt charging motion, and swapping mags in the shouldered position.
The three ideas were cutting the duckbills off the detachable mags, taking the drop-free bolt modification one step furthur, and employing an extended mag release that works. I was fortunate to be chosen to test the prototype of the mag release on a gun that I had already done the mag and bolt mods. I took it out to the range yesterday morning.
My report to the SKS Boards, as follows:
Live fire testing with the Scythian SKS Extended Mag Release proved to be the tactical advantage design for which it was intended. Detachable magazines released out and locked back in with the firearm in the shouldered position. There is an instant access to the release handle without searching, looking, feeling around or missing the intended function. It is "right there" in the "can't miss" location and requires no extra effort, thought or concentration.
My fascination and subsequent need for this extended release modification arose out of two other recent viable revelations (duckbilless, and the ultra modified drop-free bolt) that transformed a conventional medium range battlefield carbine into a highly functional SHTF firearm of high capacity and seamless reloading capabilities. It is hard to believe that it is the same gun. The difference is that stark.
Recommendations:
1. Do the Duckbilless. With an extra stock it is completely reversible with no permanent modifications.
2. Do the double 45deg ultra modified drop-free bolt modification on a spare and properly headspaced bolt.
3. Employ the Scythian SKS Extended Mag Release with this package. Period.
Cost? Many may already have Tapco mags, an aftermarket or extra stock, and/or a spare bolt. But for those who don't, here is a scenario.
I modified three Tapco mags at $16 ea = $48
Extra bolt = $20
Scythian release (approximate shipped) = $20
Duckbilless attachment ledge = free if homemade or,
Marcus Mag Adapter (approx. shipped) = $50
Stock (if desired) =$20 (wood) to $70 (tactical)
Extra bolt = $20
Scythian release (approximate shipped) = $20
Duckbilless attachment ledge = free if homemade or,
Marcus Mag Adapter (approx. shipped) = $50
Stock (if desired) =$20 (wood) to $70 (tactical)
Buying all the extras can run $150 to $200, depending on your taste in stocks, and number of mags. You can't buy an SKS-M or an AK for this money AND you can easily revert your gun back to stock, since there are no permanent modifications.
Now, what if I want to make the mods to my own gun without buying extras (utilizing the original bolt and stock)?
Mags = $48
Scythian = $20
Homemade duckbilless = $0 (time and scraps)
Bolt mod = $0 (time)
Marcus adapter = $50
Scythian = $20
Homemade duckbilless = $0 (time and scraps)
Bolt mod = $0 (time)
Marcus adapter = $50
So, for $68 to $118 you can do this conventional SKS transformation on a budget. The bolt will be permanently modified, and a small hole must be drilled through the stock for the Magadapter.
Compare to an SKS-M or D? $500
Cheap WASR-10? $400
Cheap WASR-10? $400
I have shot all three style guns, and the converted SKS that I used this morning is a high-functioning, ergonomic tactical firearm of equal standing with the best 7.62 X 39 semi-automatic carbines. Yes, I'm saying that you can make your SKS as good as a semi-auto AK.
Duckbilless modified Tapco Mag
Ultra modified Drop-Free bolt
Scythian SKS Extended Mag Release. I'm still awaiting a sales link for this device, but I can get you in touch with the distributer if needed.
The Marcus Magadapter
The modified (and truly tactical in terms of expediant firepower capacity) SKS
With Scythian release installed
Now, What do you think?
4/5/2010 7:54:30 AM
Just buy an ak. you can get them all over the place for $380. and an sks cost about $275.
My biggest problem is that no matter how much you change the sks it feel front heavy. Very hard for my wife to stand and shoot it. however with an ak-47 that is never a problem.
I do have to say nice job on the mod.. Sometimes we just have to work with what we have.
Keep up the good work, and thanks for the ideas.
My biggest problem is that no matter how much you change the sks it feel front heavy. Very hard for my wife to stand and shoot it. however with an ak-47 that is never a problem.
I do have to say nice job on the mod.. Sometimes we just have to work with what we have.
Keep up the good work, and thanks for the ideas.
4/5/2010 12:21:19 PM
Must have had a lot of time on your hands. I'm fortunate enough to have a rather large collection of AKs and SKSs. I had a SKS sporter once. The one that takes standard AK mags. As much as I tried to like it, I realized that it would never do anything that my AKs couldn't do , and do better. I got rid of it. I like my SKSs in their original configuration.
4/5/2010 6:05:21 PM
I guess that proves you can indeed polish a turd
4/5/2010 6:08:00 PM
And teach it new tricks!
4/5/2010 6:11:45 PM
Neat, but if you want an AK, just buy one, they're relatively cheap and plentiful. An SKS will never be as good of an AK, as an AK.
I think an SKS is good, just like it is.
I think an SKS is good, just like it is.
4/5/2010 6:49:28 PM
As the owner of over thirty "stock" SKS's and AK's, I can certainly side with the sentiment to keep them just as they were built. Many should never be touched in the manner in which I did above.
There is, however, a certain number of firearm owners who will accessorize and alter no matter the alternatives. I'm sure that those owners are the ones to whom this type of modification will appeal.
There is, however, a certain number of firearm owners who will accessorize and alter no matter the alternatives. I'm sure that those owners are the ones to whom this type of modification will appeal.
4/5/2010 8:08:41 PM
Interesting.
You removed what looks like a lot of metal off the bolt. Any idea how much weaker it is now or how you've changed the load dynamics?
I'm ok with mods if that's your thing. I have doubts about modifying a critical part like a bolt without understanding all the implications. OTOH, I also like having my eyes and not having to wear a mask to go out in public lest I frighten women and small children.
Good luck and watch out for signs of bolt stress and impending failure.
BSW
You removed what looks like a lot of metal off the bolt. Any idea how much weaker it is now or how you've changed the load dynamics?
I'm ok with mods if that's your thing. I have doubts about modifying a critical part like a bolt without understanding all the implications. OTOH, I also like having my eyes and not having to wear a mask to go out in public lest I frighten women and small children.
Good luck and watch out for signs of bolt stress and impending failure.
BSW
4/5/2010 8:22:24 PM
Looks interesting. Since the AWB is still in full effect in my state this is as close to an AK as you can legally own.
4/5/2010 9:12:28 PM
Excellent observation briansmithwins!
The idea of the SKS bolt modification comes from the shape of the FN/FAL bolt.
In order to accept the shorter insertion radius of the modified magazine without popping rounds out from under the lip of the mag, the new shape of the SKS bolt was taken from an existing design.
As any engineer will tell you, critical compression columnar failure effect begins at a ratio of 7 to 1. The smallest cross section of the modified SKS bolt is .616" and the overall length is 3.574" or a ratio of under 6 to 1. Also, no material is removed along the cylindrical column that is concentric to the base of the shell against the bolt face. The bolt carrier contact area (over the length of the magazine opening) is also not modified at all, and provides assistance against deflection.
I have put just under two hundred rounds through since the modification. But you can bet that I still have inspected the bolt after every outing and there are no ill effects. None of the others that have been modified have had complications either.
But that is a great observation and worth some long term testing over several thousand rounds. Which I plan to do! But believe me, the FN/FAL bolt construction and the columnar effect have been observed closely.
The idea of the SKS bolt modification comes from the shape of the FN/FAL bolt.
In order to accept the shorter insertion radius of the modified magazine without popping rounds out from under the lip of the mag, the new shape of the SKS bolt was taken from an existing design.
As any engineer will tell you, critical compression columnar failure effect begins at a ratio of 7 to 1. The smallest cross section of the modified SKS bolt is .616" and the overall length is 3.574" or a ratio of under 6 to 1. Also, no material is removed along the cylindrical column that is concentric to the base of the shell against the bolt face. The bolt carrier contact area (over the length of the magazine opening) is also not modified at all, and provides assistance against deflection.
I have put just under two hundred rounds through since the modification. But you can bet that I still have inspected the bolt after every outing and there are no ill effects. None of the others that have been modified have had complications either.
But that is a great observation and worth some long term testing over several thousand rounds. Which I plan to do! But believe me, the FN/FAL bolt construction and the columnar effect have been observed closely.
4/5/2010 9:20:13 PM
I'll buy your analysis but:
I'd feel happier if a few SKS were tested to destruction with the modification, like Hatcher did turning down '03barrels until they started popping. If a modded bolt will fire, say 10 proof loads with showing signs of distress I'd probably figure it's GTG. Conversely, keep whittling down a bolt until it crumples under a proof load.
In engineering it's usually not the effects you're anticipating that will kill/maim you, it's the ones you didna count on. I'm not a mechanical engineer but I know enough to worried by non-standard modifications to critical parts.
Are you measuring for headspace creep while testing?
BSW
I'd feel happier if a few SKS were tested to destruction with the modification, like Hatcher did turning down '03barrels until they started popping. If a modded bolt will fire, say 10 proof loads with showing signs of distress I'd probably figure it's GTG. Conversely, keep whittling down a bolt until it crumples under a proof load.
In engineering it's usually not the effects you're anticipating that will kill/maim you, it's the ones you didna count on. I'm not a mechanical engineer but I know enough to worried by non-standard modifications to critical parts.
Are you measuring for headspace creep while testing?
BSW
4/5/2010 9:56:47 PM
Oh yes! Engineering design and application are often two different scenarios. The Tacoma Narrows Bridge is always a great reminder.
A safety factor is always built in. Typically three to one is minimal. I have no idea what factor Simonov built into his design. But comparisons to Kalishnikovs bolt cross section for the same pressure round can give you an idea that Simonov erred on the side of ten to one or better.
Also, the lock-down effect of the bolt carrier does not allow blowback movement to take place at all (i.e. a yugo bolt will remain closed in grenade launch mode). The gas system initiates rearward travel of the bolt carrier which subsequently unlocks the bolt from battery after all compression forces have left the bolt itself. So, during lock up fire, the bolt carrier also adds another increment of "safety factor".
I have no way to measure headspace creep during firing sessions, and I'm assuming you are referring to compression or shortening of the bolt. But the bolt measures the same length after sessions every time.
A safety factor is always built in. Typically three to one is minimal. I have no idea what factor Simonov built into his design. But comparisons to Kalishnikovs bolt cross section for the same pressure round can give you an idea that Simonov erred on the side of ten to one or better.
Also, the lock-down effect of the bolt carrier does not allow blowback movement to take place at all (i.e. a yugo bolt will remain closed in grenade launch mode). The gas system initiates rearward travel of the bolt carrier which subsequently unlocks the bolt from battery after all compression forces have left the bolt itself. So, during lock up fire, the bolt carrier also adds another increment of "safety factor".
I have no way to measure headspace creep during firing sessions, and I'm assuming you are referring to compression or shortening of the bolt. But the bolt measures the same length after sessions every time.
4/10/2010 11:23:54 PM
It would be a lot easier just to buy an AK than go through the time and labor to convert an SKS to high cap
4/11/2010 7:48:55 AM
Originally Posted By fallow251:
It would be a lot easier just to buy an AK than go through the time and labor to convert an SKS to high cap
It would be a lot easier just to buy an AK than go through the time and labor to convert an SKS to high cap
But where would be the fun in that?
4/11/2010 10:55:53 AM
Originally Posted By martin08:
But where would be the fun in that?
Originally Posted By fallow251:
It would be a lot easier just to buy an AK than go through the time and labor to convert an SKS to high cap
It would be a lot easier just to buy an AK than go through the time and labor to convert an SKS to high cap
But where would be the fun in that?
Well you could spend the time shooting your AKs and SKSs instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.
4/11/2010 10:58:54 AM
wtf?
you guys are upset at how he spends his time?
Yeah, why work on making something better, just go buy it.
Thanks OP for posting this.
TXL
you guys are upset at how he spends his time?
Yeah, why work on making something better, just go buy it.
Thanks OP for posting this.
TXL
4/11/2010 3:13:38 PM
Thanks for the support, TxLewis. But skepticism and alternative opinions are fine by me. These ideas that I'm presenting are "way out there" in relation to the norm. I fully appreciate why these mods would not be appealing to everyone.
Now to go out on a thin limb, and I'm sure to invite some more response....
This morning I posted this observation on SKS Boards.
I took my Modified Duckbilless out this morning and practiced mag interchangability on the fly. I also brought along my WASR-10 to do some subjective comparisons. I'd really like to have an SKS-M or a D to get the full experience in one session, but the SKS with the Duckbilless Tapco mags and extended release rained all over the AK's parade today. Why?
Platform. The SKS is a much more substantial gun. While mag swaps were about a statistical tie (around 2 to 3 seconds for either gun), the SKS was far superior and faster in returning to sight picture, more stable on recoil, and delivered three inch smaller groups at 40 yards than the AK.
I know that my comparison pitted a milled vs. sheet receiver gun, but I'm beyond thinking that the AK is as good as the newly modded SKS. Head to head, the Modded SKS was a better gun today. Hands down.
So, the short and long of it - The SKS with the above changes is a better high capacity performer in terms of faster rapid fire combined with accuracy. The only advantage the AK holds is the nearly 2lbs lighter weight.
Now to go out on a thin limb, and I'm sure to invite some more response....
This morning I posted this observation on SKS Boards.
I took my Modified Duckbilless out this morning and practiced mag interchangability on the fly. I also brought along my WASR-10 to do some subjective comparisons. I'd really like to have an SKS-M or a D to get the full experience in one session, but the SKS with the Duckbilless Tapco mags and extended release rained all over the AK's parade today. Why?
Platform. The SKS is a much more substantial gun. While mag swaps were about a statistical tie (around 2 to 3 seconds for either gun), the SKS was far superior and faster in returning to sight picture, more stable on recoil, and delivered three inch smaller groups at 40 yards than the AK.
I know that my comparison pitted a milled vs. sheet receiver gun, but I'm beyond thinking that the AK is as good as the newly modded SKS. Head to head, the Modded SKS was a better gun today. Hands down.
So, the short and long of it - The SKS with the above changes is a better high capacity performer in terms of faster rapid fire combined with accuracy. The only advantage the AK holds is the nearly 2lbs lighter weight.
4/12/2010 11:51:00 PM
thanks for the post martin.
as to those asking why, the first reason i can think of is that every sks i've ever shot has been a lot more accurate than any of the aks i've ever shot. i have heard of a number of people hunting w/ an sks, but never w/ the ak.
as to those asking why, the first reason i can think of is that every sks i've ever shot has been a lot more accurate than any of the aks i've ever shot. i have heard of a number of people hunting w/ an sks, but never w/ the ak.
4/13/2010 9:04:58 AM
Originally Posted By martin08:
While mag swaps were about a statistical tie (around 2 to 3 seconds for either gun), the SKS was far superior and faster in returning to sight picture, more stable on recoil, and delivered three inch smaller groups at 40 yards than the AK.
While mag swaps were about a statistical tie (around 2 to 3 seconds for either gun), the SKS was far superior and faster in returning to sight picture, more stable on recoil, and delivered three inch smaller groups at 40 yards than the AK.
1. Whether the rifle is faster returning to the sight picture is entirely subjective. I'm sure you find it to be true. Others do not.
2. A 3" difference in groups seems excessive, especially at 40 yards. If the AK is shooting within the 6" @100m specified, the groups should be less than 3" @40 yards. To get a 3" spread, you'd need to fire all shots from the SKS into a SINGLE HOLE!
3. More to the point, even if you actually experience that much of a difference, it's meaningless in the application you've chosen for the rifles. Combat rifles are either sufficiently accurate to hit a man sized target or they're not.
4/13/2010 12:40:59 PM
Not firing from a bench here!
Sight re-acquisition with the SKS compared to the AK - no contest at all. I did both less than five minutes apart.
As rapidly as I could retain a good sight picture with both guns from a shouldered stance, the SKS placed all shots in a 5" group, the AK in an 8" group which would be sufficient Minute of Man firing in a combat situation for either gun. The SKS was just more accurate and places kill shots faster.
Suppose I need to do a video.
Sight re-acquisition with the SKS compared to the AK - no contest at all. I did both less than five minutes apart.
As rapidly as I could retain a good sight picture with both guns from a shouldered stance, the SKS placed all shots in a 5" group, the AK in an 8" group which would be sufficient Minute of Man firing in a combat situation for either gun. The SKS was just more accurate and places kill shots faster.
Suppose I need to do a video.
4/13/2010 12:57:25 PM
Originally Posted By Jtrout141:
I guess that proves you can indeed polish a turd
I guess that proves you can indeed polish a turd
4/13/2010 5:29:56 PM
Originally Posted By martin08:
As rapidly as I could retain a good sight picture with both guns from a shouldered stance, the SKS placed all shots in a 5" group, the AK in an 8" group
As rapidly as I could retain a good sight picture with both guns from a shouldered stance, the SKS placed all shots in a 5" group, the AK in an 8" group
8" at 40 yards is not representative of what the AK is capable of, I assure you.
4/13/2010 5:55:16 PM
OK.
From a bench.
My AK does about 7MOA, that's with open sights at 100 yards with Golden Tiger FMJ. Not bad.
Sighted at the range in Feb, 2010.
Rapid fire from a shoulder position,
meaning standing and firing as humanly quickly as sight picture can be reasonable ascertained, at 40 yards it does 8" groups. Not bad.
My direct experience on Sunday morning April 11, 2010
From a bench.
My AK does about 7MOA, that's with open sights at 100 yards with Golden Tiger FMJ. Not bad.
Sighted at the range in Feb, 2010.
Rapid fire from a shoulder position,
meaning standing and firing as humanly quickly as sight picture can be reasonable ascertained, at 40 yards it does 8" groups. Not bad.
My direct experience on Sunday morning April 11, 2010
4/14/2010 11:41:58 AM
Originally Posted By martin08:
OK.
From a bench.
My AK does about 7MOA, that's with open sights at 100 yards with Golden Tiger FMJ. Not bad.
Sighted at the range in Feb, 2010.
OK.
From a bench.
My AK does about 7MOA, that's with open sights at 100 yards with Golden Tiger FMJ. Not bad.
Sighted at the range in Feb, 2010.
The Soviet AK Service Manual specifies that the AK must be capable of firing groups at 100m no larger than 15 cm (~6"). If the rifle will not fire groups that size, it is inspected and fired again. "If an unsatisfactory result is obtained the second time, the rifle is sent to the repair shop for ascertaining and eliminating the causes of the inaccuracy."
In other words, if your rifle will not deliver groups smaller than 7", it is not typical and needs to be repaired.
Further, it shouldn't be used as a standard to which another rifles is compared.
4/15/2010 8:16:40 AM
Demilling defective AK today.
4/15/2010 8:49:11 AM
Originally Posted By martin08:
Demilling defective AK today.
Demilling defective AK today.
That's one solution.
Alternatively, one could ascertain the cause of the inaccuracy and correct it.
4/15/2010 12:00:00 PM
Just having a little fun. I'm not unhappy with 7MOA on a WASR-10. In fact it is more accurate than some of my more worn out SKS's.
