Does 5.45x39 'yaw' under 25 yards from healthy barrels?
Last year I took the gamble on a 2009-mfg. Century Bulgarian AK74.
I have fired about 400 rounds of corrosive Ukrainian surplus out of it, with zero keyholing beyond 30 yards. Under 25 yards, it leaves oblong holes about the width of two clean holes. No true key-holes like the shameful Century Tantals.
I have heard that 5.45x39 just does this, even from Russian-mfg. Saiga rifles.
Is this true? If not, why are my bullets all stabilizing before impact if fired at paper >30yards?
I really appreciate your input.
Thanks.
M@A
My SAR and My Bulgi build absolutely do not do that. My S&W 5.45 does not either.
Does yours have a US made barrel?
I understand this is normal for the long 5.45 round. Here is a link to a discussion on it. I would not be disappointed about what you describe. Now for sideways keyholeing I would be disappointed.
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80045
Thanks for responding, bros. I hear so many different things. I'd REALLY like to see some paper shot by an S&W 5.45x39 or a Saiga at 15 yards.
EDIT:
Wow, thanks for that link!
How is your accuracy at 100yds? I have one Bulg 74, one Polish wz88 (interarms) and two Russian SGL31s. All have the correct non US barrels. None display the bullet characteristics you mention. I test all new rifles at 25, 50, 75 and 100yds. The reason I do this is because of leasons learned.
About four years ago, I purchased a Century Tantal from Ben at Classic Arms. I purchased it because it was much cheaper than my Interarms and I wanted a shooter. When I took it to the range, I only fired it at 50yds. This was all that was available at the time. I noticed that it was less accurate than my other AKs, but for the price I was satisfied. No keyholes, nothing but perfect round holes. The next time I shot it, I started at 25 yds. It displayed the exact results yours did. I moved out to 50 yds. No keyholing. Nothing but perfect round holes. I moved out to 100yds and had keyholing, terrible accuracy and some round holes.
For mine, the bullets seemed to tumble all the time, but the distance from the target determined the bullet picture. If accuracy isn't good at 100yds, I recommend varying your distance to the target. I have never seen an unstable bullet straighten itself out further down the range.
Ben was gracious enough to take it back and refund my money even though I have had it for a couple of months.
I have shot 3 different 5.45 rifles at 25 yards. One TGI truck gun with original Bulgarian barrel, one Saiga before and after conversion, and one SGL-31. None of them ever made anything but a round hole from 25 to 100 yards using 7n6 surplus ammo. I even tried to get the truck gun and Saiga to have issues by doing a mag dump and all holes were nice and round.
You have one with the out of spec. American barrels. A in spec. barrel with proper twist etc. will do nothing but make nice small round holes regards less of the distance.
Anyone who tells you this is normal is wrong!! No foreign manufactured barrel: Bulgarian, Romanian etc. in 5.45x39 will key hole.
Originally Posted By creeks:
You have one with the out of spec. American barrels. A in spec. barrel with proper twist etc. will do nothing but make nice small round holes regards less of the distance.
Anyone who tells you this is normal is wrong!! No foreign manufactured barrel: Bulgarian, Romanian etc. in 5.45x39 will key hole.
What he said!!!!!!!!!!!!!
More bullshit spawned by piss poor American-made 5.45 barrels. My God, we make wonderfull 5.56 AR-15 chromed barrels and .308 barrels in the USA. Can't at least ONE American company man up and make an in-spec chromed 5.45 barrel for the ak-74 clones? Isn't at least one company now making decent AR-15 uppers in 5.45 with decent American barrels? So, why not a decent ak-74 barrel too?
I would GLADLY pay another 120 dollars or so for an IN-SPEC chromed barrel when buying one of the CAI ak-74 Bulgarian kit guns. This would put a quick end to the guessing game everybody is now playing about these rifles. These guessing games we are all playing about "Gee, I wonder if my CAI ak-74 clone will keyhole when it gets here?" are getting tedious.
I note many are simply taking the Century ak-74 clones and replacing the shiitty American barrels immediatey with milspec Bulgarian barrels. Then, presto, you have a decent rifle that should last a long time.
And for you folks who now think that "my American-made barrel does not keyhole, I got a good one" I would say get back to us after a few thousand rounds and let's see what you have to say then. For every one of you, there are many new owners with keyholing/accuracy problems it appears.
I understand that Century Arms can't sell the rifles for $99.95 but going for the lowest selling prices possible BY CUTTING THE OVERALL QUALITY OF THE RIFLE USING INFERIOR BARRELS is not the best approach IMHO.
Ok you have the option to believe or dis-believe me, but I have a Century Tantal, that so far has never keyholed after thousands of rounds of a wide variety of brands and bullet weights, Bulgarian, and Russian surplus...at all ranges and with a HOT or cold bbl. I TRIED to make it keyhole, and it never has...this bugged me so I began a long 2 year period of research to find out why some rifles do and some don't. I dug up an incredable amount of data from Finland to Smith & Wesson and on and on. I even interviewed former Russian and Ukranian soldiers who used the AK74 in training or combat and they saw keyholing occasionally at the range. I don't have space here to give it all up, so here is the bottom line: 5.45 BBL's of all types and ammo vary so much in specification that ANY AK-74 can "keyhole" under the right set of circumstances. One can of Russian surplus may keyhole and another may not...same for commercial ammo...by slugging lots of bbls you will find a HUGE variety of bore sizes, and in fact according to European specs a 5.56 bbl SHOULD work, but it doesn't cos most ammo is undersized, or when the bbl heats up it gets just loose enough to tumble surplus or 60 grain. "7N6 IS DESIGNED TO YAW WITH THE SLIGHEST RESISTENCE" . Even the quality of the chrome lining can make a huge difference. I have personally seen Tantal's that passed the bullet test keyhole, and some that failed the test not keyhole! A GOOD 5.45 bbl like a Smith & Wesson is deliberately made undersized, and NOT to spec. Therefore it solves the problem and works great with most 5.45 ammo. Rifles with quality bbls and or Russian, Bulgy or Polish bbls are much less likely to keyhole, but with the right ammo even they will keyhole too. I wish I had a better answer, but my best guess is thatr the design of the projectile itself makes it very "touchy" in flight, and if you add in a variety of bore and bullet specs, it worsens the problem. Some Tantals keyhole with the muzzle break on, and do not keyhole with it off...incedentially my Tantal don't keyhole, but it is not real accurate with a 5" group at 50 yds...if somebody has a better answer than this I'm ready to hear it.
Originally Posted By gewamser:
Ok you have the option to believe or dis-believe me, but I have a Century Tantal, that so far has never keyholed after thousands of rounds of a wide variety of brands and bullet weights, Bulgarian, and Russian surplus...at all ranges and with a HOT or cold bbl. I TRIED to make it keyhole, and it never has...this bugged me so I began a long 2 year period of research to find out why some rifles do and some don't. I dug up an incredable amount of data from Finland to Smith & Wesson and on and on. I even interviewed former Russian and Ukranian soldiers who used the AK74 in training or combat and they saw keyholing occasionally at the range. I don't have space here to give it all up, so here is the bottom line: 5.45 BBL's of all types and ammo vary so much in specification that ANY AK-74 can "keyhole" under the right set of circumstances. One can of Russian surplus may keyhole and another may not...same for commercial ammo...by slugging lots of bbls you will find a HUGE variety of bore sizes, and in fact according to European specs a 5.56 bbl SHOULD work, but it doesn't cos most ammo is undersized, or when the bbl heats up it gets just loose enough to tumble surplus or 60 grain. "7N6 IS DESIGNED TO YAW WITH THE SLIGHEST RESISTENCE" . Even the quality of the chrome lining can make a huge difference. I have personally seen Tantal's that passed the bullet test keyhole, and some that failed the test not keyhole! A GOOD 5.45 bbl like a Smith & Wesson is deliberately made undersized, and NOT to spec. Therefore it solves the problem and works great with most 5.45 ammo. Rifles with quality bbls and or Russian, Bulgy or Polish bbls are much less likely to keyhole, but with the right ammo even they will keyhole too. I wish I had a better answer, but my best guess is thatr the design of the projectile itself makes it very "touchy" in flight, and if you add in a variety of bore and bullet specs, it worsens the problem. Some Tantals keyhole with the muzzle break on, and do not keyhole with it off...incedentially my Tantal don't keyhole, but it is not real accurate with a 5" group at 50 yds...if somebody has a better answer than this I'm ready to hear it.
Well, I own a Century Tantal too. How about that? It is a keyholing sob. Here's how I plan to use it for home defense. If a bad guy tries to break into my house, I am going to open an upstairs window and throw the damn thing, unloaded and without a magazine in it, down at the bad guy. Hopefully, it will hit him in the head and knock him out.
I think you may be confusing "keyholing" with the fact that any light weight high velocity round will "deflect" its flight path if it hits something or encounters some resistive shear force. But that's fine. I stand by my previous statements about the quality of the barrels Century Arms put in these things - at least the early ones like I bought. The overall situation speaks for itself. Haven't you read the posts stating that board members have bought Century ak-74 type rifles and then replaced the barrels with Bulgarian milspec ones? They did that for a reason.
I am glad that you like your rifle and it appears to be performing correctly for you, by the way. Don't construe my post as a personal attack. It's not.
This isn't about wether I like my Tantal or not. it's simply about trying to figure out WHY 5.45 rifles keyhole sometimes. No offense taken.
I have built five 5.45 rifles for myself. 2 were built with virgin rpk74 front ends from kvar. 2 were built with virgin east german barrels. 1 was built with a surplus polish barrel.
0 rifles have ever left a keyhole or a "oblong" hole at 25, 50, 100 or 200 yards after several thousand rounds fired.
Any questions?
FWIW just to throw another experience I have had in this. I have only used original military barrels and never saw any keyholes until I built up an unissued Bulgarian krink. First and only time I took it to the range about a year ago it would randomly keyhole using standard milsurp ammo. Now on my last mash it seemed to stop. I don't know if it had something to do with being a brand new barrel or not but I was not happy. This thread reminded me that I need to take it back for another trial. I have built up about six others in 5.45 including an rpk-74, but the krink was the only one to do this.
