Archived Posts » 59,821,464
Parabellum Armament Rail
6/1/2012 12:10:15 AM
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XPAAKARSG3&name=Parabellum+Armament+AK+Adaptive+Rail+System&groupid=64
Has anyone tried this? Is it as good as the TWS rail?
Has anyone tried this? Is it as good as the TWS rail?
6/1/2012 12:31:00 AM
For a typical shooter, it's probably just fine.
However, if you say something bad about it or the company, prepare for the owner to personally insult you for not liking the product that his 'secret elite special forces' came up with, and more or less lie because his ego got hurt.
There's another thread somewhere, you can read exactly how nuts the guy was when someone questioned his product. For that reason alone, I spent my money elsewhere - can't trust a company like that.
However, if you say something bad about it or the company, prepare for the owner to personally insult you for not liking the product that his 'secret elite special forces' came up with, and more or less lie because his ego got hurt.
There's another thread somewhere, you can read exactly how nuts the guy was when someone questioned his product. For that reason alone, I spent my money elsewhere - can't trust a company like that.
6/1/2012 1:41:19 AM
I have one & it fits very well, it uses a steel AK top cover so it looks more AK like than the TWS.
it also doesn't have the obnoxious engraving across it. just some white letters you can black out if you like.
to be honest I haven't tried to reset the cover & check zero, but it locks up so tight I'm sure it is very close.
ETA: I have handled a mounted TWS and while it appears solid also, I believe the AKARS is a superior product
it also doesn't have the obnoxious engraving across it. just some white letters you can black out if you like.
to be honest I haven't tried to reset the cover & check zero, but it locks up so tight I'm sure it is very close.
ETA: I have handled a mounted TWS and while it appears solid also, I believe the AKARS is a superior product
6/1/2012 6:15:23 AM
The guy who questioned the product that rkobalt mentions was me... Basically to give you a quick version of the story, a friend of mine bought one for his AK and we fired a few hundred rounds thru it and afterwards cleaned the weapon and reset the rail. The next time we went out we checked zero and it didn't hold. As I stated in the thread mentioned it is possible my friend got a fluke bad piece but that is my personal experience with the product. There are people who seem to like it so I don't know... For me I'll stick to the TWS version.
If you're interested in the thread mentioned, here it is...
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_4_64/139846_TWS_dog_leg_rail_or__.html
...If nothing else it gives you some insight as to what both products are made out of and why.
If you're interested in the thread mentioned, here it is...
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_4_64/139846_TWS_dog_leg_rail_or__.html
...If nothing else it gives you some insight as to what both products are made out of and why.
6/1/2012 11:44:23 AM
At one time I was interested in the AKARS and was hoping MAC would do a review on it so I could get some better info. After reading MAC's comments on the AKARS in the thread below, I now know why it wasn't reviewed:
http://www.militaryarmschannel.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=477
http://www.militaryarmschannel.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=477
6/1/2012 1:16:57 PM
Thanks fellas, looks like neither the TWS or the PAAKARS are that great.
6/1/2012 1:38:38 PM
I have given up on putting an optic on my AKs. My receivers don't have the mount, and I don't want anything out on the hand guard. These action cover rails that connect to the rear sight base are good but way overpriced. The action cover rails without any connection to the sight base are not worth having. So I resigned myself to the irons. I have ARs when I want to use optics.
6/1/2012 4:50:02 PM
Originally Posted By Mustang17:
Thanks fellas, looks like neither the TWS or the PAAKARS are that great.
Thanks fellas, looks like neither the TWS or the PAAKARS are that great.
what makes you say that?
6/1/2012 4:55:55 PM
I want a real deal straight up review of the AKARS.
With range report and everything. The deign is appealing, but I would like first hand experience.
With range report and everything. The deign is appealing, but I would like first hand experience.
6/1/2012 5:11:46 PM
Originally Posted By Silkyjla30:
I want a real deal straight up review of the AKARS.
With range report and everything. The deign is appealing, but I would like first hand experience.
I want a real deal straight up review of the AKARS.
With range report and everything. The deign is appealing, but I would like first hand experience.
7n6's review:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_4_64/140041_Tested_the_new_Parabellum_Armament_AKARS_rail_system_today___.html
Read through the whole thread for all of his comments
6/1/2012 5:17:14 PM
Thank you for linking me to that. I actually posted in that thread by forgot I did. I would love if TX-Zen did a review, but I'm leaning towards this over the TWS.
6/1/2012 5:26:23 PM
Originally Posted By rkobalt:
what makes you say that?
Originally Posted By Mustang17:
Thanks fellas, looks like neither the TWS or the PAAKARS are that great.
Thanks fellas, looks like neither the TWS or the PAAKARS are that great.
what makes you say that?
Seems like people have had problems with both of them retaining zero, I don't want something I can't rely on.
6/1/2012 5:42:53 PM
Originally Posted By Mustang17:
Seems like people have had problems with both of them retaining zero, I don't want something I can't rely on.
Seems like people have had problems with both of them retaining zero, I don't want something I can't rely on.
I haven't read anywhere saying the TWS rail does not hold zero, only the opposite. With the AKARS, I've read conflicting reviews.
In the link to MAC's forum earlier, he had issues with running out of adjustment on one particular rifle with a long range scope on a TWS rail which is likely due to the scope itself, not the rail. He also says that rough handling a scoped AK with a TWS rail would probably mess with zero, but I'd say that's the case with most rifles if you bang on the optics.
Hands down, your best bet is the Kreb's rail, which is very expensive, but you will not have to ever worry about that product.
6/1/2012 5:58:56 PM
Originally Posted By rkobalt:
I haven't read anywhere saying the TWS rail does not hold zero, only the opposite. With the AKARS, I've read conflicting reviews.
In the link to MAC's forum earlier, he had issues with running out of adjustment on one particular rifle with a long range scope on a TWS rail which is likely due to the scope itself, not the rail. He also says that rough handling a scoped AK with a TWS rail would probably mess with zero, but I'd say that's the case with most rifles if you bang on the optics.
Hands down, your best bet is the Kreb's rail, which is very expensive, but you will not have to ever worry about that product.
Originally Posted By Mustang17:
Seems like people have had problems with both of them retaining zero, I don't want something I can't rely on.
Seems like people have had problems with both of them retaining zero, I don't want something I can't rely on.
I haven't read anywhere saying the TWS rail does not hold zero, only the opposite. With the AKARS, I've read conflicting reviews.
In the link to MAC's forum earlier, he had issues with running out of adjustment on one particular rifle with a long range scope on a TWS rail which is likely due to the scope itself, not the rail. He also says that rough handling a scoped AK with a TWS rail would probably mess with zero, but I'd say that's the case with most rifles if you bang on the optics.
Hands down, your best bet is the Kreb's rail, which is very expensive, but you will not have to ever worry about that product.
Is the Krebs rail a bit higher? I want to mount my EOTech with somewhat of a cheek weld.
6/1/2012 6:28:34 PM
When I did the rail test review for the AKARS it wasn't very scientific. The test was done on one day and it was freezing cold. The rifle wouldn't cycle because it was an import Saiga missing the feed plate and each round had to be fed by hand. It held zero for what I could tell and I was hitting steel plates with it at distance but I didn't get a chance to test it again independently with a functioning rifle. After the test was completed, I figured it worked well enough that I just gave it a passing grade but honestly never got a chance to really run it through it's paces. In addition the owner was going to send me a rail since the test didn't go as planned but he never did- so other than one range trip with limited use, I didn't get to use one further.
I use Russian optic rail mounts currently and have no issues with those. So for now, I'll stick with the Russian stuff.
7n6
I use Russian optic rail mounts currently and have no issues with those. So for now, I'll stick with the Russian stuff.
7n6
6/1/2012 6:57:41 PM
Originally Posted By 7n6:
When I did the rail test review for the AKARS it wasn't very scientific. The test was done on one day and it was freezing cold. The rifle wouldn't cycle because it was an import Saiga missing the feed plate and each round had to be fed by hand. It held zero for what I could tell and I was hitting steel plates with it at distance but I didn't get a chance to test it again independently with a functioning rifle. After the test was completed, I figured it worked well enough that I just gave it a passing grade but honestly never got a chance to really run it through it's paces. In addition the owner was going to send me a rail since the test didn't go as planned but he never did- so other than one range trip with limited use, I didn't get to use one further.
I use Russian optic rail mounts currently and have no issues with those. So for now, I'll stick with the Russian stuff.
7n6
When I did the rail test review for the AKARS it wasn't very scientific. The test was done on one day and it was freezing cold. The rifle wouldn't cycle because it was an import Saiga missing the feed plate and each round had to be fed by hand. It held zero for what I could tell and I was hitting steel plates with it at distance but I didn't get a chance to test it again independently with a functioning rifle. After the test was completed, I figured it worked well enough that I just gave it a passing grade but honestly never got a chance to really run it through it's paces. In addition the owner was going to send me a rail since the test didn't go as planned but he never did- so other than one range trip with limited use, I didn't get to use one further.
I use Russian optic rail mounts currently and have no issues with those. So for now, I'll stick with the Russian stuff.
7n6
That's disappoint to hear considering your review is really the only one out there.
6/1/2012 8:03:41 PM
Originally Posted By Silkyjla30:
Is the Krebs rail a bit higher? I want to mount my EOTech with somewhat of a cheek weld.
Is the Krebs rail a bit higher? I want to mount my EOTech with somewhat of a cheek weld.
It looks as if it might be a tad higher, but it won't really matter, as an EOTech is going to be ungodly high no matter which rail system you use. Your only option would be to use a stock with a cheek riser, like a Magpul MOE/CTR.
6/1/2012 8:15:17 PM
Originally Posted By Silkyjla30:
That's disappoint to hear considering your review is really the only one out there.
Originally Posted By 7n6:
When I did the rail test review for the AKARS it wasn't very scientific. The test was done on one day and it was freezing cold. The rifle wouldn't cycle because it was an import Saiga missing the feed plate and each round had to be fed by hand. It held zero for what I could tell and I was hitting steel plates with it at distance but I didn't get a chance to test it again independently with a functioning rifle. After the test was completed, I figured it worked well enough that I just gave it a passing grade but honestly never got a chance to really run it through it's paces. In addition the owner was going to send me a rail since the test didn't go as planned but he never did- so other than one range trip with limited use, I didn't get to use one further.
I use Russian optic rail mounts currently and have no issues with those. So for now, I'll stick with the Russian stuff.
7n6
When I did the rail test review for the AKARS it wasn't very scientific. The test was done on one day and it was freezing cold. The rifle wouldn't cycle because it was an import Saiga missing the feed plate and each round had to be fed by hand. It held zero for what I could tell and I was hitting steel plates with it at distance but I didn't get a chance to test it again independently with a functioning rifle. After the test was completed, I figured it worked well enough that I just gave it a passing grade but honestly never got a chance to really run it through it's paces. In addition the owner was going to send me a rail since the test didn't go as planned but he never did- so other than one range trip with limited use, I didn't get to use one further.
I use Russian optic rail mounts currently and have no issues with those. So for now, I'll stick with the Russian stuff.
7n6
That's disappoint to hear considering your review is really the only one out there.
I'll try to do a review in a couple of weeks. I've mounted it on my SLR-107F.
6/1/2012 9:01:08 PM
I had one for a while but sold it, to be honest I wasn't terribly impressed with it over all. I never did to test the return to zero potential but I did have a lot of trouble closing it all the way with an optic mounted. It seemed to not lock down quite the same way twice and I couldn't figure out how to keep the top cover portion from sliding backward off the hinge rail. It seemed either I could lock it down with the set screws to stop the sliding but then I couldn't get it to latch properly because it seemed to need some front to back to lock in. In effect if it was locked down I couldn't get the top cover over the recoil spring button, and if there was enough play to get it over the spring it was almost too far back to stay tight. Maybe there is a sweet spot but I didn't find it.
I bought it instead of the TWS only because it was advertised as having an AK rear sight, but the notch was much wider than I expected which was a turn off for me because I prefer standard AK sights to anything else. The rail seems well made but has a few quirks that I didn't care for...really tiny set screws that require the tiniest allen wrench, the sliding top cover issue, and the wide rear aperture.
Not condemning the product because I think it has potential but it wasn't strong enough out of the box for me to keep it.
Z
I bought it instead of the TWS only because it was advertised as having an AK rear sight, but the notch was much wider than I expected which was a turn off for me because I prefer standard AK sights to anything else. The rail seems well made but has a few quirks that I didn't care for...really tiny set screws that require the tiniest allen wrench, the sliding top cover issue, and the wide rear aperture.
Not condemning the product because I think it has potential but it wasn't strong enough out of the box for me to keep it.
Z
6/1/2012 9:38:51 PM
So he sent the rail to me 
, I took TX-Zens rail out of the packaging & stuck it on my 7.62 underfolder and it locked into place tightly & perfectly.
If I was supposed to, I did not remove the rear sight leaf spring, didn't see a need to. it may mar the front tip of the hinge over time I suppose? but it's not like you need to pull the cover with any regularity. it IS an AK.
I'm waiting for my PSOP to fit it, but I can do a test with a QD optic (a Leupold 2.5x8x36 MRT) this weekend.
If there is any return to zero shift (on either rail) I bet it falls well inside the casual bench shooting MOA which would be what maybe 2"
So it comes down to what rail you like better. so I'm about to rip on the TWS & justify my purchase to you all.
The TWS rear tab that provides tension seems like an afterthought. That can't have the same properties as a full edge of a steel topcover providing the tension all the way around.... and the fact that The AKARS uses the steel AK100 topcover & your original recoil spring it LOOKS like an AK the TWS look reminds me of sig/robinson arms? I don't know, just not like an AK, and that huge lettering turns me off. it is probably lower than the AKARS, but I don't care about co witnessing, I got this for a magnified optic/NV ect. Also I'm sure the front hinge on the AKARS is way stronger I think the AKARS has a better chance of less shift due to the beefy hinge & rail being continuous for your optic to mount on. the TWS has the adjusting screws in between the hinge and the rail & optic. & could allow major shift if they loosen.
yeah, the rear notch is a little wide, but it is plenty good for M.O.M.and a moot point if you have an optic in place.
Here is a casual review of the TWS, the shooting starts at 8:30 and I can see a little return to zero shift, but I think we are trying to polish turds/pick fly shit out of black pepper here.
The AK platform =/= accurized long range tactical rifle
my off the shelf Remington LTR .308 bolt gun will shoot 1MOA out to 500yds
, I took TX-Zens rail out of the packaging & stuck it on my 7.62 underfolder and it locked into place tightly & perfectly.
If I was supposed to, I did not remove the rear sight leaf spring, didn't see a need to. it may mar the front tip of the hinge over time I suppose? but it's not like you need to pull the cover with any regularity. it IS an AK.
I'm waiting for my PSOP to fit it, but I can do a test with a QD optic (a Leupold 2.5x8x36 MRT) this weekend.
If there is any return to zero shift (on either rail) I bet it falls well inside the casual bench shooting MOA which would be what maybe 2"
So it comes down to what rail you like better. so I'm about to rip on the TWS & justify my purchase to you all.
The TWS rear tab that provides tension seems like an afterthought. That can't have the same properties as a full edge of a steel topcover providing the tension all the way around.... and the fact that The AKARS uses the steel AK100 topcover & your original recoil spring it LOOKS like an AK the TWS look reminds me of sig/robinson arms? I don't know, just not like an AK, and that huge lettering turns me off. it is probably lower than the AKARS, but I don't care about co witnessing, I got this for a magnified optic/NV ect. Also I'm sure the front hinge on the AKARS is way stronger I think the AKARS has a better chance of less shift due to the beefy hinge & rail being continuous for your optic to mount on. the TWS has the adjusting screws in between the hinge and the rail & optic. & could allow major shift if they loosen.
yeah, the rear notch is a little wide, but it is plenty good for M.O.M.and a moot point if you have an optic in place.
Here is a casual review of the TWS, the shooting starts at 8:30 and I can see a little return to zero shift, but I think we are trying to polish turds/pick fly shit out of black pepper here.
The AK platform =/= accurized long range tactical rifle
my off the shelf Remington LTR .308 bolt gun will shoot 1MOA out to 500yds
6/4/2012 8:03:52 PM
LPs quick & dirty review of the AKARS return to zero
with my poor mans Vintorez/dragunov...suppressed polish underfolder with a armalite mount holding a leupold 2.5x8x36 MRT.
tula ammo, benchrested over a bag @100yds. no wind, it's hot 90* or so.
...OK, let's do this.
first mounting of this scope to the gun so I have to sight in, The sight in groups (below the shoot n see) were almost a foot low & left. got it close to center, maybe .5mil to the left still. I squeezed off this group in <20sec.
Pull & reset the rail & scope. tighter group, trying not to hold right.
a final pull & reset, it's fucking hot & I'm wanting to switch to the AR for some varminting, so again with the rapidfire group.
conclusion:
I perceive little to no shift at this yardage.
Final thoughts:
I see now that this is a big heavy scope for the AKARS. these top cover rails are likely more suited for the microdot scopes. it would be fine for normal use, but if you start buttstroking zombies, something bad is going to happen, compared to say, ripping an ACOG off an AR. A rail mount that allows collapsing the stock & leaving the optic on is a plus, but either this or the tws + a big scope would have to be treated with some care or risk damage to the rail.
still probably one of the better options for an underfolder to get magnified optics. With this set up, you can only open the topcover about 45* it's a long mount & scope, and a shorter mount would allow more for/aft positions on the rail, but it works good as is.
with my poor mans Vintorez/dragunov...suppressed polish underfolder with a armalite mount holding a leupold 2.5x8x36 MRT.
tula ammo, benchrested over a bag @100yds. no wind, it's hot 90* or so.
...OK, let's do this.
first mounting of this scope to the gun so I have to sight in, The sight in groups (below the shoot n see) were almost a foot low & left. got it close to center, maybe .5mil to the left still. I squeezed off this group in <20sec.
Pull & reset the rail & scope. tighter group, trying not to hold right.
a final pull & reset, it's fucking hot & I'm wanting to switch to the AR for some varminting, so again with the rapidfire group.
conclusion:
I perceive little to no shift at this yardage.
Final thoughts:
I see now that this is a big heavy scope for the AKARS. these top cover rails are likely more suited for the microdot scopes. it would be fine for normal use, but if you start buttstroking zombies, something bad is going to happen, compared to say, ripping an ACOG off an AR. A rail mount that allows collapsing the stock & leaving the optic on is a plus, but either this or the tws + a big scope would have to be treated with some care or risk damage to the rail.
still probably one of the better options for an underfolder to get magnified optics. With this set up, you can only open the topcover about 45* it's a long mount & scope, and a shorter mount would allow more for/aft positions on the rail, but it works good as is.
6/4/2012 9:02:58 PM
Originally Posted By luckypunk:
...but either this or the tws + a big scope would have to be treated with some care or risk damage to the rail.
...but either this or the tws + a big scope would have to be treated with some care or risk damage to the rail.
Hmm... I'd argue this point with you. I've banged mine around quite a bit in the year or so I've had it. Never had an issue either damaging the rail or maintaining zero.
6/5/2012 10:59:06 PM
A couple things I would like to add given my impression of the AKARS. It needs to have the ability to tension the lock down in the rear. It also needs a narrower sight slot. Finally, it would be awesome if it had a windage adjustable rear site.
